No, it's not satire. Why are you chasing Brad around? He's not going to give you what you want and he's said as much repeatedly.

I would agree with the sober part of what Brad was saying, though, with Torchbearer being "more D&D than D&D", at least in the sense that Torchbearer's framing procedures (the 'adventure phase' and 'town phase') are designed to make a sort of treadmill out of Basic-style adventuring.  While Basic is clearly all about dungeon crawling, you could just as easily (though with no particular rules support) wander around town looking for trouble in inns and alleys.  Torchbearer doesn't really let you do this.

It's a little bit like a side-scrolling game where the scrolling forces you to move forward, constantly pushing you into the experience advertised on the tin.  Same thing with inventory and so forth.

If you're having intense, resource-starved dungeon crawling games already (and you can of course do this without any rules at all) you might find Torchbearer claustrophobic and pushy.  On the other hand, even if you've played D&D for years, but just never happened to have a GM that cared that much about the nitty gritty of encumbrance, tracking torches, or feeling that being in a dungeon wasn't especially safe (say, because you played a lot of Paizo adventure paths that were more about heroic tactical combat through level-appropriate challenges), playing Torchbearer will give you that experience.

Quote from: robiswrong;700158I don't get a whole ton of "hey, let's go make fun of this shitty game by making a caricature out of it" vibe from this - not when adjectives like "brilliant" and "magnificent" are used.

It's more complicated than that, actually.

In the Burning Wheel era, Luke was down on D&D for (basically) not being a Forge game.

There's a whole rant in Burning Wheel about how d20s are "no fun for anyone". Like: how solipsistic can you be? When was the last time you left your bubble, Luke?

Eventually, Luke tried Red Box as-written and liked it. There was a G+ post where basically he and his intrepid band of post-traumatic stressed players realized "Hey, all these rules about mapping and torches are here for a reason..." which the OSR had been saying for years at that point and it was passed around by Luke fans as wisdom from on high.

However, still being, at heart, an uptight Forgie, his take was that it worked because it was a focused (i.e. Forge-ish) game about dungeon crawling. And, so long as it's just about dungeon crawling it works...

http://www.story-games.com/forums/discussion/15845/which-dd-basic-set-is-the-best-tom-moldvay-vs-frank-mentzer-/p1

Quoth Luke:

"Lastly, there's highly restricted rules for towns in Moldvay. This is a huge relief. In my opinion, once you leave the dungeon, D&D goes off the rails. I want to spend five minutes in town buying equipment, resting and taking care of business and then I want to get back to the dungeon."

So, basically, Luke has come round to D&D so long as it stays in its place--a focused game about dungeons.

B...but Luke, there's literally 30 years of people having fun outside the dungeon.

Well Luke then pulls the traditional Luke Crane Dodge: if you had fun with a game Luke claims is not well-designed then you weren't actually playing that game..

". As soon as your character "gets drunk" you're not playing D&D any more, but you're playing your super awesome happy fun time home brew basement game! Fun time basement games are totally supported in spirit by Moldvay, however. And I think that's cool. But like you said, fuck the rails! I'll be over here mapping this dungeon."

Which is a warm and fuzzy way of describing why Luke still gets to cling to various Forgie fallacies about what makes a Well Designed Game while still acknowledging the by-2013-so-obvious-you-can't-really-ignore-it reality that none of Luke's ideas about what makes a Well Designed Game seem to have any relation to anyone's reality outside the group of aphasics who like his games basically because they can't make D&D do what they want.

It also explains what Torchbearer's about: making a focused game that only handles the part of D&D that Luke can handle.

Quote from: Zak S;700202stuff

Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQpvqPuDJWI

Quote from: Zak S;700202Eventually, Luke tried Red Box as-written and liked it. There was a G+ post where basically he and his intrepid band of post-traumatic stressed players realized "Hey, all these rules about mapping and torches are here for a reason..." which the OSR had been saying for years at that point and it was passed around by Luke fans as wisdom from on high.

So are taxes, but when I sit down to play an RPG, there are things I'm fine with handwaving ("You carry 6 flasks of oil, enough to last you 3 hours, I'll just count the time using my "superbrain""). Which is probably why I just stay the hell away from Torchbearer (well that and it's by Luke Crane), it's D&D with it's Tax Calculating Elements To The Max.

QuoteHowever, still being, at heart, an uptight Forgie, his take was that it worked because it was a focused (i.e. Forge-ish) game about dungeon crawling. And, so long as it's just about dungeon crawling it works...

http://www.story-games.com/forums/discussion/15845/which-dd-basic-set-is-the-best-tom-moldvay-vs-frank-mentzer-/p1

Quoth Luke:

"Lastly, there's highly restricted rules for towns in Moldvay. This is a huge relief. In my opinion, once you leave the dungeon, D&D goes off the rails. I want to spend five minutes in town buying equipment, resting and taking care of business and then I want to get back to the dungeon."

So, basically, Luke has come round to D&D so long as it stays in its place--a focused game about dungeons.

B...but Luke, there's literally 30 years of people having fun outside the dungeon.

Well Luke then pulls the traditional Luke Crane Dodge: if you had fun with a game Luke claims is not well-designed then you weren't actually playing that game..

". As soon as your character "gets drunk" you're not playing D&D any more, but you're playing your super awesome happy fun time home brew basement game! Fun time basement games are totally supported in spirit by Moldvay, however. And I think that's cool. But like you said, fuck the rails! I'll be over here mapping this dungeon."

Which is a warm and fuzzy way of describing why Luke still gets to cling to various Forgie fallacies about what makes a Well Designed Game while still acknowledging the by-2013-so-obvious-you-can't-really-ignore-ot reality that none of Luke's ideas about what makes a Well Designed Game seem to have any relation to anyone's reality outside the group of aphasics who like his games basically because they can't make D&D do what they want.

It also explains what Torchbearer's about: making a focused game that only handles the part of D&D that Luke can handle.

Which is kind of a sad thing, really. Because even if you play D&D "as supposed to", so the adventurers are basically commandos going in dungeons, you suddenly realise at one point, just like a real strike team, dungeon is basically "five minutes of work", preceded by hours of planning. You need to buy donkeys for carrying treasures, get to know local criminal element so you can siphon the stolen jewellery easily, drink to forget that buddy of yours who was crushed by a walking statue because he went back to steal the huge jewel as the pyramid was falling apart (really happened, heh - both counts in fact), invest the money, buy tools, buy/brew potions, scrolls, what have you, and of course, talk to NPCs and continue your agenda in the world.

Quote from: Rincewind1;700210So are taxes, but when I sit down to play an RPG, there are things I'm fine with handwaving ("You carry 6 flasks of oil, enough to last you 3 hours, I'll just count the time using my "superbrain""). Which is probably why I just stay the hell away from Torchbearer (well that and it's by Luke Crane), it's D&D with it's Tax Calculating Elements To The Max.



Which is kind of a sad thing, really. Because even if you play D&D "as supposed to", so the adventurers are basically commandos going in dungeons, you suddenly realise at one point, just like a real strike team, dungeon is basically "five minutes of work", preceded by hours of planning. You need to buy donkeys for carrying treasures, get to know local criminal element so you can siphon the stolen jewellery easily, drink to forget that buddy of yours who was crushed by a walking statue because he went back to steal the huge jewel as the pyramid was falling apart (really happened, heh - both counts in fact), invest the money, buy tools, buy/brew potions, scrolls, what have you, and of course, talk to NPCs and continue your agenda in the world.

And it's at this point that, despite its welter of rules, Torchbearer's tinkertoy mindset begins to break down and the edges of the simulation show.

For example: when you start, your party can't try to kill a dragon. Period. It's not an available option. The dragon is there, but killing it is not even something you can attempt. It's not like D&D where you try and will probably fail and learn from that failure and try again--you just can't. It's forbidden by the rules. Look at the dragon. Looooook...but don't attack.

The great innovation of RPGs was "Hey, here's the first game where you can try anything you could if this was real life"

Crane's innovation seems to be "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if you couldn't? Because, y'know, genre?"

Some Hobbits like their holes. Let 'em.

I'm continually impressed by the ability of the shared narrative brigade to slowly, laboriously, by the most circuitous route possible, reach the really simple and obvious conclusions that everyone else just took for granted and rebrand them as new and innovative. I mean several of them have probably seen the inside of a third level education facility, so I guess it just proves the old saw that education and intelligence aren't interdependent.

Quote from: The Traveller;700229I'm continually impressed by the ability of the shared narrative brigade to slowly, laboriously, by the most circuitous route possible, reach the really simple and obvious conclusions that everyone else just took for granted and rebrand them as new and innovative. I mean several of them have probably seen the inside of a third level education facility, so I guess it just proves the old saw that education and intelligence aren't interdependent.

I know. It's hilarious.

Quote from: Zak S;700202It also explains what Torchbearer's about: making a focused game that only handles the part of D&D that Luke can handle.

Which is a great argument that his understanding of D&D is incomplete or erroneous.  I'm not even going to argue that.  But I don't think that makes Torchbearer a satire, or a deliberate attempt to make fun of D&D.

I'm not saying Torchbearer is *good* - I haven't read or played it enough to even start on that kind of judgement.  I'm saying that I don't think it's intended as parody or satire.

Quote from: The Traveller;700229I'm continually impressed by the ability of the shared narrative brigade to slowly, laboriously, by the most circuitous route possible, reach the really simple and obvious conclusions that everyone else just took for granted and rebrand them as new and innovative.

Oh, absolutely.  In a lot of ways I see a lot of it as a backlash against the mid-80s through 90s games, and they've rediscovered (some) old-school principles on accident without realizing it.

I mean, not railroading, and letting players try their own solutions to problems was kind of SOP at one point.

Quote from: Zak S;700202It's more complicated than that, actually.

In the Burning Wheel era, Luke was down on D&D for (basically) not being a Forge game.

There's a whole rant in Burning Wheel about how d20s are "no fun for anyone". Like: how solipsistic can you be? When was the last time you left your bubble, Luke?

Eventually, Luke tried Red Box as-written and liked it. There was a G+ post where basically he and his intrepid band of post-traumatic stressed players realized "Hey, all these rules about mapping and torches are here for a reason..." which the OSR had been saying for years at that point and it was passed around by Luke fans as wisdom from on high.

However, still being, at heart, an uptight Forgie, his take was that it worked because it was a focused (i.e. Forge-ish) game about dungeon crawling. And, so long as it's just about dungeon crawling it works...

http://www.story-games.com/forums/discussion/15845/which-dd-basic-set-is-the-best-tom-moldvay-vs-frank-mentzer-/p1

Quoth Luke:

"Lastly, there's highly restricted rules for towns in Moldvay. This is a huge relief. In my opinion, once you leave the dungeon, D&D goes off the rails. I want to spend five minutes in town buying equipment, resting and taking care of business and then I want to get back to the dungeon."

So, basically, Luke has come round to D&D so long as it stays in its place--a focused game about dungeons.

B...but Luke, there's literally 30 years of people having fun outside the dungeon.

Well Luke then pulls the traditional Luke Crane Dodge: if you had fun with a game Luke claims is not well-designed then you weren't actually playing that game..

". As soon as your character "gets drunk" you're not playing D&D any more, but you're playing your super awesome happy fun time home brew basement game! Fun time basement games are totally supported in spirit by Moldvay, however. And I think that's cool. But like you said, fuck the rails! I'll be over here mapping this dungeon."

Which is a warm and fuzzy way of describing why Luke still gets to cling to various Forgie fallacies about what makes a Well Designed Game while still acknowledging the by-2013-so-obvious-you-can't-really-ignore-it reality that none of Luke's ideas about what makes a Well Designed Game seem to have any relation to anyone's reality outside the group of aphasics who like his games basically because they can't make D&D do what they want.

It also explains what Torchbearer's about: making a focused game that only handles the part of D&D that Luke can handle.

From what I remember reading of Luke Crane's actual plays with Moldvay, he was just running modules. This may explain the obsession with D&D-is-focused-on-dungeons.

Quote from: Zak S;700219The great innovation of RPGs was "Hey, here's the first game where you can try anything you could if this was real life"

Crane's innovation seems to be "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if you couldn't? Because, y'know, genre?"

Some Hobbits like their holes. Let 'em.

This is beautiful and absolutely true. Bravo, sir.

I've never been called an aphasic hobbit before.

Quote from: Noclue;700723I've never been called an aphasic hobbit before.

Quote from: The Traveller;700229I'm continually impressed by the ability of the shared narrative brigade to slowly, laboriously, by the most circuitous route possible, reach the really simple and obvious conclusions that everyone else just took for granted and rebrand them as new and innovative. I mean several of them have probably seen the inside of a third level education facility, so I guess it just proves the old saw that education and intelligence aren't interdependent.

It's a self-important hipster thing.

"Y'know, I really dig the rough sound of these early rock recordings.  The tinny-sounding mics, the hiss and pop of the vinyl.  It's very organic and cool."
"Yeah, you're right... we should record music that's nothing but hiss and pop and static noises!"

And voila, dubstep.  

There's appreciation of a particular facet, and then there's going overboard and fetishizing the facet.

Quote from: Noclue;700723I've never been called an aphasic hobbit before.

Do you like Luke games because you can't get D&D to do what you want?

Quote from: VectorSigma;700766And voila, dubstep.  

Which then helped give birth to brostep and lots of awesome house/step fusions.  Early dubstep is pretty out there (I'm not even sure the best designer drugs could salvage it for me), but it helped spur some pretty interesting (and popular) things in EDM since.

Likewise, yeah, not all intellectualism (esp. in stuff like gaming, of all pursuits) leads to new or interesting things (granted, there is a massive bias against it in favor of "practical" wisdom here in the States), but sometimes other people can take the weird or fringe stuff and turn it on its head or create something that's more interesting or palatable to larger groups of people, pulling the diamonds out of the rough.

If I had to choose between a world with hipsters or no, people who think too hard or people who settle, I'll choose the former in both cases.  I'll always take more ideas, or re-examinations of old ones, even if it means wading through more mediocre stuff.