Quote from: Black Vulmea;652231So, there's that.

Aside from the gratuitous insults, I completely agree with Luke there.

Quote from: silva;652237Aside from the gratuitous insults, I completely agree with Luke there.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;652231So, there's that.

Luke Crane: Designing "RPGs" for people who hate RPGs.

Quote from: Benoist;652243Luke Crane: Designing "RPGs" for people who hate RPGs.

I'd think that this guy would have a lot more success designing boardgames, because his design ethos is firmly planted in that style of game. Instead, he's intent on emasculating the role of GM... to level the playing field?? So that everyone abides by the laws of the fatbeard game designer who simply knows better?

Quote from: K Peterson;652245I'd think that this guy would have a lot more success designing boardgames, because his design ethos is firmly planted in that style of game. Instead, he's intent on emasculating the role of GM... to level the playing field?? So that everyone abides by the laws of the fatbeard game designer who simply knows better?

I think he's more trying to say that GMs should dominate and terrify their players in the proper manner, according to the rules, not in an ad hoc fashion. That these aren't competitive powergames seems to have sailed right by him.

Quote from: silva;652237Aside from the gratuitous insults, I completely agree with Luke there.

Me too, except I also agree with the gratuitous insults :-P

I'm actually more of a boardgamer than an RPG player. I was one of the first couple hundred members of Boardgamegeek. I'm well acquainted with a lot of the long-standing pundits and reviewers of hobby boardgames. I've played and rated hundreds of boardgames, and participated actively in boardgame forums for 15 years.

And I don't think I've come across a single boardgamer who wants RPGs to be more like boardgames. Or has complained because RPGs don't have tight enough rules, or are vulnerable to DM tyranny. Boardgamers understand that RPGs are a completely different kind of game, that enable a completely different kind of experience at the table. So why is it so hard for some RPG designers to understand the difference?

I'll say it again: a complex RPG designed to adopt the mechanics of a modern boardgame is just a really shitty boardgame. If you're ignoring the principle innovations in modern boardgame design - elegance, brevity, tempo of choice, transparency - you're missing the entire point. Even the competitive angle misses the mark - among adventure boardgames cooperatives are the dominant mode of play.

If there was any evidence that Crane genuinely understands boardgame design, his efforts to design an RPG on the same principles might have some value as a curiosity - an amusing exercise in theorywank. As it stands, it's clear enough that he doesn't understand the appeal of RPGs or boardgames.

Quote from: soviet;652254Me too, except I also agree with the gratuitous insults :-P

Soviet says - "What war?" and there he is again! :rotfl:

I'm pretty convinced this should be moved, so moved it is.

Quote from: Haffrung;652259If there was any evidence that Crane genuinely understands boardgame design, his efforts to design an RPG on the same principles might have some value as a curiosity - an amusing exercise in theorywank. As it stands, it's clear enough that he doesn't understand the appeal of RPGs or boardgames.

Considering that this game looks like a take on Munchkin without the tongue-in-cheek humor and an extra helping of record keeping, I'd say you are right on the money.

Quote from: Haffrung;652259I'm actually more of a boardgamer than an RPG player. I was one of the first couple hundred members of Boardgamegeek. I'm well acquainted with a lot of the long-standing pundits and reviewers of hobby boardgames. I've played and rated hundreds of boardgames, and participated actively in boardgame forums for 15 years.

And I don't think I've come across a single boardgamer who wants RPGs to be more like boardgames. Or has complained because RPGs don't have tight enough rules, or are vulnerable to DM tyranny. Boardgamers understand that RPGs are a completely different kind of game, that enable a completely different kind of experience at the table. So why is it so hard for some RPG designers to understand the difference?

I'll say it again: a complex RPG designed to adopt the mechanics of a modern boardgame is just a really shitty boardgame. If you're ignoring the principle innovations in modern boardgame design - elegance, brevity, tempo of choice, transparency - you're missing the entire point. Even the competitive angle misses the mark - among adventure boardgames cooperatives are the dominant mode of play.

If there was any evidence that Crane genuinely understands boardgame design, his efforts to design an RPG on the same principles might have some value as a curiosity - an amusing exercise in theorywank. As it stands, it's clear enough that he doesn't understand the appeal of RPGs or boardgames.

While I can claim no expertise such as yours, I've played at least one board (on average) game every Saturday for the past 5 years. And I do agree with you that I have completely different expectations from board games, that I have from RPGs. But I do think that one hobby can learn a bit from the other, and vice versa - just not too much, so to speak. For example, I'd say that when it comes to "Realm Management", some board - game style rules would be nice in RPGs. Something abstract, coherent, but allowing for also exploring things that, for the lack of "space", can not be explored in board games.

Quote from: One Horse Town;652260Soviet says - "What war?" and there he is again! :rotfl:

I'm pretty convinced this should be moved, so moved it is.

There is no war, it's just us thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking there is a conflict.

I'm surprised two_fish hasn't emerged from the woodworks yet. What happened to him?

Quote from: One Horse Town;652260Soviet says - "What war?"

Who is it that you imagine you're at war with? What will victory look like?

Quote from: soviet;652273Who is it that you imagine you're at war with? What will victory look like?

Personally I'd settle for some semblance of civility from the shared narrative gang and an acceptance that they aren't playing RPGs. Then they can do their thing and the rest of the world can do its thing, everybody wins. As I mentioned earlier though it appears that bona fide traditional RPGs are appearing under the shared narrative brand, like DW, so if those took over and dwarfed the rest of the crap I'd call that a win.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;652209So this is a short story-game about screwing people over in a dungeon setting? I LOATHE story games but this sounds like fun if it's a different game every session. IE: more like a boardgame than an RPG.

No, it's a long, rules heavy RPG that has story-game elements. The competitive bit comes from a convention scenario, you don't need to play it that way. It's a bit like reading Tomb of Horrors (also a convention scenario) and deciding that's the only way D&D was meant to be played.

Quote from: The Traveller;652275Personally I'd settle for some semblance of civility from the shared narrative gang and an acceptance that they aren't playing RPGs. Then they can do their thing and the rest of the world can do its thing, everybody wins. As I mentioned earlier though it appears that bona fide traditional RPGs are appearing under the shared narrative brand, like DW, so if those took over and dwarfed the rest of the crap I'd call that a win.

This is the thing though, there isn't a clear distinction between storygames and not, because it's a (very blurry!) spectrum. Even on this site people are split as to whether Dungeon World is a storygame or not, and this very thread took 555 posts before the mods decided that Torchbearer was a storygame.

Quote from: soviet;652282This is the thing though, there isn't a clear distinction between storygames and not, because it's a (very blurry!) spectrum. Even on this site people are split as to whether Dungeon World is a storygame or not, and this very thread took 555 posts before the mods decided that Torchbearer was a storygame.

That is true of anything though. At a game shop, some products could sit on several different shelves, but you make a judgment call based on the store's system. There will always be games in the midde that get debated, and not everyone will agree on the classification. But that doesn't mean there is less of a distinction between the games occupying the far ends. And just because a game you like ends up on a different shelf doesn't mean you can't play it. Personally i am not that interested in these distinctions or the debates surrounding them.

We could debate this stuff all day though. Really I'd be interested in hearing mre about the mechanics of the this game and whether they came up with anything that might be useful to dungeon crawls. Also curious what the response to torchbearer is in places like story-games.com, enworld or rpg.net, if anyone knows (is it getting any traction outside the storygame crowd?).