Quote from: Kyle Aaron;651883Is there a reason we're giving free publicity to someone who has contempt for gamers?

Agitated boredom. This forum needs another lightning rod topic for us all to count coup and preen how clever we are. Thus my support of moving this into another forum, like the Pundit's.

Perhaps we can then go back to work giving free publicity towards the other party that has contempt for gamers, Hasbro.

Quote from: Opaopajr;651891Perhaps we can then go back to work giving free publicity towards the other party that has contempt for gamers, Hasbro.

Hasbro doesn't have contempt for gamers, they have indifference. A man does not hate an ant, he just accidentally steps on it and thinks nothing of it. They are wealthy and succesful, so compared to them we're not important enough for them to hate. Crane (and his buddies) is just a geek like the rest of us, he's on our scale, so he can hate us. He's pretentious, in the Jeff Rients' threefold theory sense of the word. He has a laser-like focus on pretension, in fact, which is what makes his games inferior. If he added some stupidity or retro to them they'd be improved.

Quote from: Spinachcat;651887Luke Crane is a poo poo head, but he has mad marketing skillz.

Nah I'm betting most of the initial surge was the BW fanclub++. If it tops $50k over the next three weeks it might be worth a closer look, but the pace has already slowed.

Christ, WTF did I get myself into...

QuoteWhat Kind of Game Is This?

Torchbearer is a roleplaying game. And it’s part of the brand of games Burning Wheel HQ has been producing for over ten years. It’s about making difficult choices. And it involves exploring the world and your character through the game rules and systems.

This is a hard game. It’s not a simple game. There are many moving parts and it’s not possible to experience the whole game in one or even two sessions. If you prefer lighter games, there are many other excellent choices available for you designed by our friends. If you’re ready to sink your teeth into a good game that will reward you for mastering the system over 10 or 20 sessions, this is the game for you.

Quote from: Brad;651926Christ, WTF did I get myself into...

You know you can change your pledge at any time, right?

Quote from: The Traveller;651868So you think crane is going to earn more than WotC from this?

More than Arneson. And more than Edwards as well.

WotC ate TSR after it had already kicked Gygax, and then got eaten by Hasbro. WotC was not the RPG innovator, that was the guys in the 70s who came up with RPGs.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;651884WOW, 50 PAGES ALREADY?!? You people must really love this game

I'd love to troll it but I'm pressed for time. Can anyone sum things up?

You're a drive-by asshole?

Quote from: apparition13;651930More than Arneson. And more than Edwards as well.

WotC ate TSR after it had already kicked Gygax, and then got eaten by Hasbro. WotC was not the RPG innovator, that was the guys in the 70s who came up with RPGs.

There's a long chain of innovation and compensation involved with D&D, some people got compensated, some didn't do as well, but to say that 'true innovators' whatever they might be get burned while everyone else makes money is nonsense. Dungeons and dungeoneering are the heart and soul of D&D, this torchbearer thing is the definitive example of someone riding on the coat tails of their betters.

Something like Eclipse Phase is far more original and as such has reaped the rewards.

Quote from: The Traveller;651933this torchbearer thing is the definitive example of someone riding on the coat tails of their betters.

I would argue its someone riding on the coattails of other people, who themselves rode on the coattails of their betters (while screaming and throwing poo).

Quote from: The Traveller;651900Nah I'm betting most of the initial surge was the BW fanclub++. If it tops $50k over the next three weeks it might be worth a closer look, but the pace has already slowed.

Again, this is a case of "One - eyed man ruling kingdom of blind". Because almost nobody cares/works much for/on marketing in RPG industry, as Crane manages to get some of it going, it's suddenly actually semi - effective.

Quote from: Brad;651926Christ, WTF did I get myself into...

Well, you can't say we did not warn you .

Quote from: jeff37923;651931You're a drive-by asshole?

More like a drivel - bygone asshole. He just [Gotye] ain't the Jehova Witness that I used to know.[/Gotye]

Quote from: The Traveller;651868So you think crane is going to earn more than WotC from this?

Quote from: The Traveller;651933There's a long chain of innovation and compensation involved with D&D, some people got compensated, some didn't do as well, but to say that 'true innovators' whatever they might be get burned while everyone else makes money is nonsense. Dungeons and dungeoneering are the heart and soul of D&D, this torchbearer thing is the definitive example of someone riding on the coat tails of their betters.

Something like Eclipse Phase is far more original and as such has reaped the rewards.

Re. bold: Here's a nice little article on Forbes about how much nonsense it is. It's title? Pioneers die broke. There is absolutely no reason to expect any different outcome in RPGs than there is in other industries.

Quote from: apparition13;652020Re. bold: Here's a nice little article on Forbes about how much nonsense it is. It's title? Pioneers die broke.

Oh, well allow me to retort. And the first one is a Forbes article.

Not that you're doing anything but trying and failing to dodge the point, which is that you're comparing WotC and predecessors to some poor abused inventor and torchbearer to IBM or something. I don't know what you'd have to be smoking to reach a place mentally where that makes sense or in any way resembles reality, but you can keep it.

No, crane's effort is like a knock off movie, which is trying to capitalise on the success of others in a cheap and distinctly smalltime way. And they rarely make much. Simples, sorry about your strange narrative!

Quote from: The Traveller;651933but to say that 'true innovators' whatever they might be get burned while everyone else makes money is nonsense.

Quote from: apparition13;652020Re. bold: Here's a nice little article on Forbes about how much nonsense it is. It's title? Pioneers die broke. There is absolutely no reason to expect any different outcome in RPGs than there is in other industries.

Quote from: The Traveller;652044Oh, well allow me to retort. And the first one is a Forbes article.

Your original statement was that the idea that innovators get screwed over is nonsense. I showed some evidence it is not nonsense, that is does happen. The fact that it happens to some innovators does not mean that it happens to all.

By analogy, you said "no one gets cancer", I said "here are some examples of people who got cancer", you said "look at all these people who didn't get cancer, so you're wrong".

QuoteNot that you're doing anything but trying and failing to dodge the point, which is that you're comparing WotC and predecessors to some poor abused inventor and torchbearer to IBM or something. I don't know what you'd have to be smoking to reach a place mentally where that makes sense or in any way resembles reality, but you can keep it.

Once again, WotC was not the innovator here, it was Arneson, Gygax, and their players. Arneson got squat, Gygax made a decent living for a while. TSR innovated itself into a takeover by WotC (whose innovation was Magic, which is why they had the capital for a takeover), and Hasbro bought them out. Buying out the guys who bought out the guys who kicked the innovators to the curb isn't innovation.

QuoteNo, crane's effort is like a knock off movie, which is trying to capitalise on the success of others in a cheap and distinctly smalltime way. And they rarely make much. Simples, sorry about your strange narrative!

Star Wars is partly based on some Japanese properties. Friends was based off a UK sitcom. As is the US version of Being Human. Elementary, Sherlock, and the recent Holmes movies are all capitalizing on ACD. There are plenty of successful "knockoffs"*.

*If Crane had named Torchbearer "Dungeoneers and Dragons" your knock off article would have a point. He didn't, it doesn't, he's not trying to confuse anyone that his product is D&D.

Quote from: apparition13;652056Your original statement was that the idea that innovators get screwed over is nonsense. I showed some evidence it is not nonsense, that is does happen. The fact that it happens to some innovators does not mean that it happens to all.

By analogy, you said "no one gets cancer", I said "here are some examples of people who got cancer", you said "look at all these people who didn't get cancer, so you're wrong".

I'd have thought the context was pretty clear from the preceding words "There's a long chain of innovation and compensation involved with D&D, some people got compensated, some didn't do as well". I mean it takes a bit of work not to understand that, but you managed it alright.

Quote from: apparition13;652056*If Crane had named Torchbearer "Dungeoneers and Dragons" your knock off article would have a point. He didn't, it doesn't, he's not trying to confuse anyone that his product is D&D.

Possibly you missed how the original name for the project was Ds & Ds, but they decided against it for legal reasons. Not because it wasn't a knockoff but because they were afraid of being sued. Dungeon World is what I'd call an homage in many ways. This tripe is a cynical cash grabbing knockoff, and really obviously so.

Quote from: The Traveller;652064This tripe is a cynical cash grabbing knockoff, and really obviously so.

That's pretty much what Gary Gygax said about every RPG that came after D&D. And in some ways, he's right. Tunnels &Trolls, RuneQuest, Palladium Fantasy, Chivalry & Sorcery and all the other early 80s RPGs were all riding the coattails of his creation. Traveller and Champions may have used his RPG idea, but at least they did it in different genres.

Of course, the most successful coattail riders are the video games that took all of Gary's ideas and made billions.