Quote from: Benoist;650156Fuseboy: you haven't answered my question so I am going to ask again: how do you organize/prep the dungeon in this game? Do you map it? What are the guidelines provided by the game about this?

My bad.

The GM's section has a checklist/process for making a dungeon that has some interesting ideas in it, about how the dungeon came to be a dungeon, what changes it's endured over the ages, as well as guidance on the appropriate amount of treasure, etc.

You can draw a map if you like - I had sketchy maps of mine, but as the game isn't about players drawing a map of the GM's descriptions, the GM could potentially get by without a map for a linear dungeon.

Old habits die hard, so I kept a few aspects of the dungeon vague until play, but it's entirely fine to be quite concrete ahead of time.  You could play the game using most of the dungeons submitted to the one-page dungeon contest, for example.

Quote from: Spinachcat;650169Help me understand this. Time is abstract, but light and food exists for X number of turns?

Light lasts for a certain number of turns, but turns aren't a specific length of time.  A torch lasts two turns - say, enough time to get everyone across a troublesome gap in a ruined bridge and then decipher the runes scratched into the wall on the far side. (Not very long!)

Hunger is similar - every four turns, hunger gnaws. If you don't eat, you get the Hungry/Thirsty condition.  If you're already Hungry/Thirsty when that happens, then you get successively worse conditions, which are no joke.  By the time that happens, you've probably already got other conditions, so missing meals is done with heavy heart.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;650197So, I'd like to know — is what fuseboy describes something like your ideal playing style? If not, what are the differences and similarities?

I love fantasy horror, so the "dungeon as a scary place" is very important to me and how I run OD&D and how I enjoy fantasy adventures.

What Fuseboy is describing sounds interesting, but I am not grasping what Torchbearer is offering me that DCC's funnel with encumbrance rules would not offer. Or any other low level, low magic RPG.

His description of Torchbearer sounds a lot like my "Dirty Peasants in Danger" convention game for Warhammer 1e where instead of Trollslayers and Elf Marines, the PCs are a collection of gutsy village folk in deep doo-doo who crawl into the darkness in search of their missing children.

I would buy Torchbearer: the Boardgame in hot second. Daring tomb robbers with their spears and torches eating rats on stick sounds fun, but outside of boardgames, I don't want that rigid turn concept.

Quote from: Spinachcat;650206I love fantasy horror, so the "dungeon as a scary place" is very important to me and how I run OD&D and how I enjoy fantasy adventures.

What Fuseboy is describing sounds interesting, but I am not grasping what Torchbearer is offering me that DCC's funnel with encumbrance rules would not offer. Or any other low level, low magic RPG.

His description of Torchbearer sounds a lot like my "Dirty Peasants in Danger" convention game for Warhammer 1e where instead of Trollslayers and Elf Marines, the PCs are a collection of gutsy village folk in deep doo-doo who crawl into the darkness in search of their missing children.

I would buy Torchbearer: the Boardgame in hot second. Daring tomb robbers with their spears and torches eating rats on stick sounds fun, but outside of boardgames, I don't want that rigid turn concept.

You're not far off, because truth be told, a lot of storygames seem to have very board - games inspired mechanics, and for a good reasons. Board games' abstractions are simply fitting, and since they are much more abstract than your usual RPGs, they are much easily balanced - for the price of abstraction way above typical levels.

Yeah, shared narrative games are much closer to wargames than regular RPGs on several levels.

From fuseboy's description, sound like you could plug in Torchbearer on top of the dungeon-crawling RPG of your choice with a little work, as a specialized subsystem to manage time and resources.

Quote from: The Butcher;650227From fuseboy's description, sound like you could plug in Torchbearer on top of the dungeon-crawling RPG of your choice with a little work, as a specialized subsystem to manage time and resources.

It does sound that way, which always begs my usual question of "why is this an entire game rather than a (system-neutral?) supplement?".

(Followed by the standard answer, which is "some folks think everything works better as an entire new game".)

Meh, I'm gonna go back to working on space ninjas.

Quote from: VectorSigma;650231Meh, I'm gonna go back to working on space ninjas.

Same thing. But it's golden barges travelling between worlds, here (bonus points to those who get the reference).

Quote from: The Traveller;650223Yeah, shared narrative games are much closer to wargames than regular RPGs on several levels.

Can you elaborate on this? I never got that impression out of shared narratives once.   When you say war games the first thing that comes to mind are miniatures, dice, and tape measurers and that makes me think more of D&D than anything else.

Quote from: casek;650234Can you elaborate on this? I never got that impression out of shared narratives once.   When you say war games the first thing that comes to mind are miniatures, dice, and tape measurers and that makes me think more of D&D than anything else.

Strict rules adherence and structure drives play.

(All FREX)

Wargame: First we move, then we fight, then we rally (etc...)
Boardgame: First I move, then you move, then we play cards, then we ...
Storygame: First we have a "narrator turn" then we have a "drama scene" then I decide "How far am I willing to go?" then we determine stakes, then we... etc...

RPG: What should we do now?

An RPG provides tools to make your own game happen whereas a storygame (and war and board games) provide a much stricter out-of-the-box "game" to play.

This isn't a bad thing, BTW, I like some storygames (I most recently ran Dread, and it was pretty awesome) but it's dumb to pretend Mouseguard is the same thing as Runequest.

Mouseguard play is driven by the rules (they deliberately "addresses a theme" to put it in wank terms), they make Mouseguard "About" something (struggle against overwhelming odds, etc...)

Runequest play is driven by the group. It's only "about" what the players and GM make it about (that's not to say the rules don't inform gameplay, they do, but they don't drive it.)

Quote from: The Traveller;650223Yeah, shared narrative games are much closer to wargames than regular RPGs on several levels.

I'm thinking more Eurogames, really.

Quote from: fuseboy;650205Light lasts for a certain number of turns, but turns aren't a specific length of time.  A torch lasts two turns - say, enough time to get everyone across a troublesome gap in a ruined bridge and then decipher the runes scratched into the wall on the far side. (Not very long!)

Hunger is similar - every four turns, hunger gnaws. If you don't eat, you get the Hungry/Thirsty condition.  If you're already Hungry/Thirsty when that happens, then you get successively worse conditions, which are no joke.  By the time that happens, you've probably already got other conditions, so missing meals is done with heavy heart.

Could we say "turns" here are equivalent to scenes/situations ?

Quote from: silva;650253Could we say "turns" here are equivalent to scenes/situations ?

Any time you test, that's a turn.  I can imagine scenes that contain multiple tests, so.. no?

Quote from: Benoist;650047Well the guy does something well for some people, apparently. I mean, there are people who appreciate Burning Wheel and its avatars out there, including you, right? So from a basic game design standpoint, the guy must be doing something right. And I say that without snark, really.

Sure. I encourage you to give BW a try, or at least a read. It is a very interesting fantasy game, with some good ideas. If the game is too rules-heavy for you, at least there are some ideas you can snag. And it is traditional as hell.

Also, some persons are annoyed by the writing style, but that's too personal to judge.

Quote from: The Butcher;650227From fuseboy's description, sound like you could plug in Torchbearer on top of the dungeon-crawling RPG of your choice with a little work, as a specialized subsystem to manage time and resources.

Yeah, I got the same impression. OTOH, as I have always used encumbrance rules in RQ by-the-book, I don't find this Torchbearer experience to be nothing new.

I mean: whenever I have run an underground delve, be it in RQ or D&D or CoC or whatever, all these things are tracked.

Quote from: Piestrio;650235Strict rules adherence and structure drives play.
Runequest play is driven by the group. It's only "about" what the players and GM make it about (that's not to say the rules don't inform gameplay, they do, but they don't drive it.)

This is an excellent and actually useful description and distinction.

Quote..as I have always used encumbrance rules in RQ by-the-book, I don't find this Torchbearer experience to be nothing new.

I mean: whenever I have run an underground delve, be it in RQ or D&D or CoC or whatever, all these things are tracked.

I got the impression its not just a matter of encumbrance/bulk rules though, but the sinnergy of it with the "conditions" (Hungry, Afraid, Exhausted, etc) which trigger certain reactions under certain circumstances (afraid + no light = runaway, etc).

Sorry, since both members of the free marketing beaureau seem intent on turning the thread into an advertisement for this idiot shouldn't it be elsewhere?