Quote from: Spinachcat;649931For instance, +1 AC for shields makes no sense if you ever did any melee fighting like SCA. The shield is crazy important except in D&D. Even in my own retrowhatever, I am fighting with giving shields their due vs. going along with "tradition".

What do you think shields ought to do?

(And, as regards the OSR, exact clones have all been done. Maybe something new is worth producing.)

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;650019What do you think shields ought to do?

(And, as regards the OSR, exact clones have all been done. Maybe something new is worth producing.)

In Stone Horizons you can use shields in two ways, either as an aid to parrying attempts or taking the damage of a blow. The first is a free action when you parry, the second is a Reflexive (quick) action - which you get one of a round.

                              Parry            Damage Threshold            
Small Shield           +1 die          3 points
Medium Shield       +2 dice         6 points
Large Shield          +3 dice         9 points

Parry attempts are stat + skill, so typically 5 dice for a beginning character - so shields help a lot. Each success achieved in parry reduces damage taken by one point.

The damage threshold is the amount of damage a shield can take before it becomes useless - the advantage being that it can soak up more damage automatically, rather than relying on gaining successes if you parry.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;649998Another anti-free-market commie, great.

Goddamnit, this is how the economy works:

• make something
• sell it, or watch it fail miserably

Not the other way around. Kickstarters are welfare payments, except that most welfare recipients are worthy and not as vain.

You're going to have to get used to it, as it looks to be here to stay.  And it's quite capitalistic.  In fact it is borrowing concepts from the stock market.

I playtested an earlier version of Torchbearer.

I got that opportunity at an interesting time - I was feeling a bit sick of my own GMing style!  I normally play very character-focused gaming: in BW, the game is something of a collision between the player goals and the GM's shtick.  Because of the (potentially) very fast pace of play, these can evolve very rapidly (as the characters evolve).

While I enjoy the results of this very much, I was starting to yearn for situations where the players would be doing more reasoning about the game world, which happens to be what Torchbearer is all about. So much so, that running it was initially rather unsettling.

Inventory is the core of the resource system, because space is at a premium. All the dungeoneering and survival gear you need to survive the adventure plus the treks to and from town is bulky, and you've only got two hands. Sacks don't float magically along side you, you have to carry them, and that uses up a hand (two, for large sacks).  At the same time, it's chunky enough (as you can probably tell for the posted character sheet) that it handles fairly quickly - nobody's adding up coin-weights or anything like that.

I noticed the table chatter was quickly dominated by questions of who had a free hand to hold a second torch, who had extra oil, how everyone was doing for food. The "conditions" are all very serious.  Missing a meal when you need one, is bad, and it gets worse from there.  Equipment changes hands constantly.

As a GM who was used to being in control of the level of difficulty, it was a little alarming - the players knew, far more than I did, just what a tight spot they were in.  I might confront them with what seemed like a modest logistical problem, only to kick off a torrent of debate about how they were going to make sure there was light at both the top and the bottom end of the climbing rope.

Dungeoneering has the same sort of feeling as underwater cave diving - you are in an environment you cannot survive, except by virtue of what you bring with you.

The players liked my 'dungeon' quite a bit.  I had taken a page from the pacing approach I'd seen in LOFP's "Death Frost Doom", and again in a 1PDC entry, "Zombie Elves": the 'monsters' appear quite late, after the PCs have gotten nervous, worn down, and past the point of easy retreat.  The parts I hoped would be creepy worked wonderfully, which was very gratifying.

The highlight of the adventure still stands out in my mind.  The players had rapelled down into a flooded chapel where the crypt lord sat in his slimy chair. The precious treasure the players sought was glinting at them from under the water's surface.  At this point, the lord (who was not a threat in and of himself) banged his ceremonial gong, calling forth his crypt servants.  The players didn't know what these were, but they began to hear the distant splashes of undead emerging from their niches.

This kicked off the most tense moment I can remember in a while - the players suddenly had some brutal decisions to make, and no time to make them.  How long should they spend pulling these rotted sacks from under the water? What could they do without? Tomas was Exhausted and Afraid, would leaving the tinderbox be a death sentence? The spare oil? The rope? Could they do without some of their remaining food? Now practiced with the system, the players knew that leaving these things behind might be a death sentence - their angst was genuine.  Super intense!

We played three adventures, essentially.  We recruited some two more players, and the four of them returned to the dungeon that had so nearly kicked their asses, overcame it and hauled out the rest of the loot on a hacked-together sled.  They then journeyed to a locale pointed to by some journals in their haul.  I mixed up the challenges for that one, and we played it out to a fairly satisfying conclusion.

The players learned some neat tricks - the skill system has have some interesting synergies built into it. Soon the players had figured out they could save on money (which is always in short supply) by hunting, preserving the food, and using the halfling's cooking skills to stretch their rations even further.  Of course, all this takes time, and the wilderness is a scarcely safer place than the dungeon.  There is, however, sunlight, which relieves a tremendous amount of pressure.

When I played the game at a con, I learned that I'd been giving out a fraction of the treasure, which would have relieved some of the sense my players had of slowly being ground into the dust by injuries, exhaustion and poverty.

These challenges are baked pretty deeply into the system, so I'm really curious how the game evolves as the PCs become more powerful.

Do you map your dungeon in Torchbearer?

What form does the dungeon take in your notes? How do you organize it before hand, for which particular benefits in the game?

Quote from: Benoist;649959Oh and the lulfest RE: theRPGsite goes on on Luke Crane's twitter: https://twitter.com/Burning_Luke

With special potshots at J Arcane and the like.

What a douche. And I say that as someone who has enjoyed his games (ran a very successful year long Burning Wheel campaign).

Well the guy does something well for some people, apparently. I mean, there are people who appreciate Burning Wheel and its avatars out there, including you, right? So from a basic game design standpoint, the guy must be doing something right. And I say that without snark, really.

Quote from: Benoist;649961Heh. What I was thinking in regards to the RPG Site, too. Luke Crane wants to laugh at the Site, by all means, keep bringing more people to our forum! Thank you! Very much obliged!

It's just his marketing angle. Being a prima-donna douchebag hipster pisses some people off and makes others drool, but either way he gets press on both sites like this that'll mock him for it, and story-gamer sites who'll drool over how clever he is.

It's not a bad gig if you can pull it off.

Shields are very important in fight, yes - especially if you are going against archers/crossbowmen, they can mean the difference between life and death. 3e got closer to the importance of shield than 1e did, certainly.

Quote from: J Arcane;650060It's just his marketing angle. Being a prima-donna douchebag hipster pisses some people off and makes others drool, but either way he gets press on both sites like this that'll mock him for it, and story-gamer sites who'll drool over how clever he is.

It's not a bad gig if you can pull it off.

Should we counter with "Crane Please Do A Cobain" 'movement', then? :rolleyes:

[edit: Please don't actually, I don't want to be sued]

Quote from: Rincewind1;650065Shields are very important in fight, yes - especially if you are going against archers/crossbowmen, they can mean the difference between life and death. 3e got closer to the importance of shield than 1e did, certainly.



Should we counter with "Crane Please Do A Cobain" 'movement', then? >,<

Only if you want to help his career.

Besides, I wasn't suggesting he should, only that he'd never do it.

Quote from: J Arcane;650066Only if you want to help his career.

Besides, I wasn't suggesting he should, only that he'd never do it.

True, given our reputation, it'd only probably cause entire RPG.net to get him an Anti - Depression fund or something.

I was more thinking along the lines of this meme:

[image removed by moderator]

[edit: Please don't actually, I don't want to be sued]

Quote from: Rincewind1;650065Shields are very important in fight

I have no doubt. I was just wondering what they thought shields should do.

Your response, for example, if I were to guess, indicates that shields can be used as mobile cover against missile fire — the scene in 300, as an example.

Quote from: One Horse Town;650021In Stone Horizons you can use shields in two ways, either as an aid to parrying attempts or taking the damage of a blow.

Blocking the blow, turning a blow aside, mobile cover, secondary melee weapon — all of that makes sense (to my largely-untutored mind). What else?

There's always someone who takes it too far.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;650081I have no doubt. I was just wondering what they thought shields should do.

Your response, for example, if I were to guess, indicates that shields can be used as mobile cover against missile fire — the scene in 300, as an example.


Blocking the blow, turning a blow aside, mobile cover, secondary melee weapon — all of that makes sense (to my largely-untutored mind). What else?

You've got it right. As for the cover against missile fire - if you see an arrow going your way, or someone pulling/aiming at you, what are you going without a shield?

Quote from: One Horse Town;650082There's always someone who takes it too far.

Glad to take the honours. Though I'll use :rolleyes: next time to denote that I was mostly joking on his perceived "rivalry" with RPGsite.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;649998Another anti-free-market commie, great.

Goddamnit, this is how the economy works:

• make something
• sell it, or watch it fail miserably

Not the other way around. Kickstarters are welfare payments, except that most welfare recipients are worthy and not as vain.

It's true, he's scrawny.

You're not serious, are you? Because Kickstarter is actually a good way how to showcase that community funding can work in a free enterprise system.

I thought D20 Conan did a good job breaking AC into Parry AC and Dodge AC and shields were +4 Parry, +1 Dodge. In Mazes & Minotaurs, the breastplate is worth +4 and the shield +2 which feels right by comparison.

My retrowhatever is a pure vanity project to codify how I view OD&D and how I've played it over the years. I know the market is beyond saturated, but so is the micro-beer market and yet every month some dude comes out with his new brew. If I get a "yeah, that's tasty" from the OSR community, that would be far beyond my expectations.

Quote from: fuseboy;650025I playtested an earlier version of Torchbearer.

Thank you for that review!

Quote from: fuseboy;650025So much so, that running it was initially rather unsettling.

Explain.

Quote from: fuseboy;650025Missing a meal when you need one, is bad, and it gets worse from there.

How long are these expeditions?

How many meals are assumed per day and what constitutes a meal? AKA, how much foraging / hunting has to be done to feed 6 adults? Does the game get into details like 1 Rabbit = 1 meal, 1 Deer = 12 meals?

Also is "meal" both food and drink?

And did anyone say "Blue Wizard needs Food!" at any point?

Quote from: fuseboy;650025Dungeoneering has the same sort of feeling as underwater cave diving - you are in an environment you cannot survive, except by virtue of what you bring with you.

That sounds good.

Quote from: fuseboy;650025These challenges are baked pretty deeply into the system, so I'm really curious how the game evolves as the PCs become more powerful.

This is my question too. The challenges of a 1st level adventurer in Old School D&D fade to a great degree by 4th level where wealth and magic can solve many of the problems. Even if the monsters are tougher, the dungeoneering aspect can be somewhat overcome in an easier manner.