Quote from: silva;649923So why is Shadowrun (or any other game really) passive of re-invention, but D&D not ? Why the outcry when the criticism is on D&D ?

In this case, the game isn't trying to re-do the premise with a better execution, it's sneeringly laughing at the premise itself.

Quote from: silva;649923What always bothered me in D&D wasnt its premise, but its execution.

The problem is that you know *FUCK ALL* about both the premise and execution of the game. You keep talking about how much you hate-hate-hate the "wargaming roots of the game" but don't have any significant first-hand experience of OD&D nor AD&D First Ed whatsoever, having not either read them nor played them by your own admission. All you're doing on D&D threads is repeat ad nauseam the propaganda of competitors to AD&D from the 80s and 90s you were drinking as a kid like the ultimately sweet kool-aid that answered all your prayers and frustrations, not knowing how ridiculous it sounds to keep waving that banner around today.

Then, you turn around and praise games aping D&D in completely truncated, absurd manners with Forge meta-game mechanics and moves and bullshit, just because Luke Crane and Sage what-the-fuck-is-his-name deserve a blowjob for being "indie" and "oh-so-edgy".

And you wonder why some of us are laughing?

Come on man. That right here is the irony of it all.

Quote from: silva;649923What always bothered me in D&D wasnt its premise, but its execution.

I would be very interested in a thread where you discussed this.

I am a big OD&D fan, a proud OSR member, and I am open to seeing its flaws or what doesn't work for somebody else as long as your argument makes sense. For instance, +1 AC for shields makes no sense if you ever did any melee fighting like SCA. The shield is crazy important except in D&D. Even in my own retrowhatever, I am fighting with giving shields their due vs. going along with "tradition".

Quote from: silva;649923Thus, a game that preserves the premise but with a different execution sounds cool to me.

Me too, as long as its done well. Unfortunately, too often I see people making RPGs when instead they should be making boardgames.
 

Quote from: silva;649923Why the outcry when the criticism is on D&D?

Messing with a geek's childhood toy = murder of their memories

AKA, the reaction of 30+ and 40+ crowd to Phantom Menace.

More information about the game: http://www.dorkadia.com/2013/04/22/luke-crane-ready-to-kickstart-torchbearer-old-school-dd-burning-wheel/

QuoteThough I've been snuck a few exciting details, I hadn't heard much about Luke Crane's new Moldvay-inspired Burning Wheel game. While it was called "Dungeoneers & Dragonslayers", Crane (editor) and Thor Olavsrud's (writer) have rebranded their game as "Torchbearer". A fitting name for a game that promises to be an adaptation of the Mouse Guard system that trades the emulation of brave little mice for the emulation of the choking darkness. According to Forbe's two spreads on the game, we have every reason to be exited for the next book in the Burning Wheel library.

Old School Bean Counting

Using  charming RPG.net verbage, Crane and Olavsrud set out to create a game that allows you to be fantasy "murder hobos" out to make a buck by delving into dangerous environs. While this is the shared goal of most fantasy RPG designers, most modern fantasy systems lack the tools necessary to make the dungeon itself a palpable presence at the table. Delves end up more like the tabletop version of Peter Jackson's Mines of Moria or a game of Rogue: glossed-over uninteresting interstitial passages linking big set piece caverns. The systems are much more about the "dragon" rather than the "dungeon".

Not so in Torchbearer, says Olavsrud. Quoting his interview with Forbes, Olavsrud "...wanted to make a game where caving and dungeoneering felt like a big deal. [W]here your character could be cold and wet and feel the oppressive weight of the dark." In Torchbearer your all-too-few inventory slots must be split between armor, spellbooks, food, and water. Getting lost and running out of food will kill as surely as any attack roll. Torches are consumed at a steady rate, running out of light in the middle of an encounter forces the would-be-heroes to run automatically. The dungeon itself is omnipresent in the system, a mechanically backed-up nemesis.

This unavoidable bean counting is a brave design choice that shows that Torchbearer has an modus operandi: scare the shit out of players as they delve. As a DM, that sounds very appealing.

New School System

The system is described as "Advanced Mouse Guard and Dragons". The system is not a simple "rules-lite" adaptation of old school games; the gaming scene hardly needs another one of those. Instead, Torchbearer retools Mouse Guard' system to determine the fate and fortunes of treasure hunting murder hobos. It employs a beefed up version of the Conflict system, conditions, and fail-forward mechanics to convey its stories. There are no hit points, no d20s, no experience points. This game is not just an "old school revival", it stays true to its Burning Wheel roots.

But Torchbearer does meet its inspiration half-way by introducing levels and classes, features that have heretofore been absent from Burning Wheel games. It attaches these concepts to the reward-feedback-loop that already exists within Mouse Guard. Acting in accordance to your Beliefs, digging yourself into interesting predicaments with Traits, and using your wises to help allies will allow you to level up. The strict Player/GM Turn structure from Mouse Guard exists within Torchbearer, but it makes more sense within the trappings of dungeon delving adventurers rather than adventuring mice. The player turn is the "going back to town" part of the D&D game that we're all familiar with, while the GM turn is the dungeon itself. It's a brilliant marriage that will hopefully work well.

Ready to Kickstart

Even after just these two Forbes articles, I'm extremely excited to see Torchbearer in its final form. The creators estimate that it's "85% finished". Crane revealed in his interview that he's getting ready to Kickstart the game's publication in the next few months. I already have a wad of bills ready to toss at this Kickstarter, we'll keep you posted when it goes live.

Oh and the lulfest RE: theRPGsite goes on on Luke Crane's twitter: https://twitter.com/Burning_Luke

With special potshots at J Arcane and the like.

Quote from: Benoist;649959Oh and the lulfest RE: theRPGsite goes on on Luke Crane's twitter: https://twitter.com/Burning_Luke

With special potshots at J Arcane and the like.

Free advertising is free advertising.

He just linked every single one of his fans to a post with Arcana Rising's Kickstarter proudly advertised.

No publicity is bad publicity, and I get some of my best feedback from story-games folk.

Quote from: J Arcane;649960Free advertising is free advertising.

Heh. What I was thinking in regards to the RPG Site, too. Luke Crane wants to laugh at the Site, by all means, keep bringing more people to our forum! Thank you! Very much obliged!

...and Luke gets more followers on Twitter. It's made of passive-aggressive win, this.

I will be supporting the kickstarter once it launches, as Torchbearer can only be better written, edited and more easily playable than the mess that is AD&D 1st edition, at least for a person who weren't around back in the days of yore.  

And because Luke's not a fat, badly dressed dork. Obviously.

Quote from: Benoist;649959Oh and the lulfest RE: theRPGsite goes on on Luke Crane's twitter: https://twitter.com/Burning_Luke

With special potshots at J Arcane and the like.

I didn't get any potshots taken at me, must be losing my touch. I'll have to talk about it in my next Forbes article.

I wonder does the moron think he's actually achieving something.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;649983It's made of passive-aggressive win, this.

If by win you mean hang a sign around your neck that says "I am neither able to put together a decent game system nor setting, so I'm going to try and upset whatever I imagine theRPGSite to be and hope some money falls out the other end cos daddy needs a new pair of shoes".

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;649983I will be supporting the kickstarter once it launches,

Another anti-free-market commie, great.

Goddamnit, this is how the economy works:

• make something
• sell it, or watch it fail miserably

Not the other way around. Kickstarters are welfare payments, except that most welfare recipients are worthy and not as vain.

QuoteAnd because Luke's not a fat, badly dressed dork. Obviously.

It's true, he's scrawny.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;649998It's true, he's scrawny.

He's also not the author. Stan Laurel is.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;649983It's made of passive-aggressive win, this.

Wait... can I get in on some of this action?

Give me a sec...

...got it. Ahem:

Yeah, it's a new game and that's good because the OSR is bad. It's like 'old', man, it's right there in the title. Times have moved on, and old is, like, the same as it used to be. How can it be good when it never got newer?

(Did I do that right? Other than not saying "fuck" even once, and getting the apostrophes right in all my contractions. Oh, and capitalizing the start of sentences. Other than all that, did I do okay?)

Quote from: One Horse Town;650000He's also not the author. Stan Laurel is.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;650002

I meant Luke's sidekick. Can never remember his name. Such is the fate of sidekicks.