Quote from: The Traveller;649317DW and AW use many of these too.

..while swapping the archaic wargamey number crunching by rules that tap directly to the in-game fiction.

QuoteI would be so much more interested in Torchbearer: the Boardgame, and I think much of the Butthurt Brigade over here would actually enjoy such a boardgame.

Interesting, thats what Ive always thought about D&D.

(that is, until I actually played Baldurs Gates and saw how crap its tactical combat gameplay was, and went running back to Jagged Alliance, UFO and Rainbow Six)

Quote from: silva;649329..while swapping the archaic wargamey number crunching by rules that tap directly to the in-game fiction.

No offence, but I don't see how crunching the number of torches and rations is better than crunching the numbers of gold pieces I can carry.

I found the abstract system from LotFP, once I've improved it a bit to my needs (that is, OSRIC/AD&D stats rather than 0e ones), fitting me just perfectly when it comes to D&D. Think I might've even posted them on this forum somewhere.

Quote from: silva;649329..while swapping the archaic wargamey number crunching by rules that tap directly to the in-game fiction.

No, they just substitute tables for number crunching. Tables are an easy to use interpretation of number crunching, remember. And 'archaic' games use plenty of tables too.

It's as I said, the shared narrative community are slowly, painfully, working themselves round to the conclusions that everyone else reached in the 70s.

Quote from: Rincewind1;649331No offence, but I don't see how crunching the number of torches and rations is better than crunching the numbers of gold pieces I can carry.

I found the abstract system from LotFP, once I've improved it a bit to my needs (that is, OSRIC/AD&D stats rather than 0e ones), fitting me just perfectly when it comes to D&D. Think I might've even posted them on this forum somewhere.

I think you got it wrong. I was referring to Apocalypse World. In Torchbearer case, I think the inventory/reources number crunching may work better.

QuoteNo, they just substitute tables for number crunching. Tables are an easy to use interpretation of number crunching, remember. And 'archaic' games use plenty of tables too.

Youre half-right. The right part is that yes, they use tables. The wrong part is that, differently from the old games that use tables for finding out results, Apocalypse World use tables for choices.

Quote from: silva;649335I think you got it wrong. I was referring to Apocalypse World. In Torchbearer case, I think the inventory/reources number crunching may work better.

Ironic that you mention it, because for me, after some deliberation amidst my year of wondering, while drinking heavily, I had come to a realisation that Apocalypse World's mechanics are, as I said, basically a bit more complicated and "ending - less" Choose - Your - Own - Adventure book. You have preset outcomes of your rolls, you roll better you choose more of those outcomes - the only difference is that you/GM describe the paragraph, rather than just read it out loud. So to me, AW is more archaic in it's design than the older RPGs.

Traveller, to come back to one of your earlier posts - you perhaps may not care about the creator when buying the product. I, in 95%, do neither. But quite a lot of people do. It is important to have a good press, and I think we've both seen people destroyed or coming under heavy fire because of a charge, whether real or trumpeted.

Quote from: silva;649335Youre half-right. The right part is that yes, they use tables. The wrong part is that, differently from the old games that use tables for finding out results, Apocalypse World use tables for choices.

In your haste to disdain 'archaic' games you completely overlooked that the current shared narrative darlings are basically exactly the same. No, not basically, they are by any objective measure exactly the same.

I mean what, do you think designers put tables into 'archaic' games for the good of their health? No, they were put in there to enable choices, aka finding out results. DW doesn't enable narrative gaming, it doesn't have a narrative bone in its body.

Give it up, embrace roleplaying.

Yup, exactly.

Maybe thats the reason I like it. I loooove those archaic choose-your-own-adventure books. In fact, Ive just finished King of Dragon Pass, a pc game that mixes this kind of interactive storytelling with civlization-like strategy. Highly reccomend.

About the archaic.. well, I think my archaic is just better than yours.

Quote from: silva;649339Yup, exactly.

Maybe thats the reason I like it. I loooove those archaic choose-your-own-adventure books. In fact, Ive just finished King of Dragon Pass, a pc game that mixes this kind of interactive storytelling with civlization-like strategy. Highly reccomend.

Huh.. I apologize for the archaic.

KoDP is fun, yes, but I much prefer the Fall from Heaven for my civilization needs, and PI's historical sandbox games (esp Crusader Kings 2 had a huge impact on my jaw) . Which I suppose speaks about my preferences quite well . I will admit though that I'd like a mix between the two - a fantasy setting with some form of a storyline/huge event going in the back, while with a strong sandbox strategy feel to it. It's why I loved New Vegas so much - because there is a huge thing going around, you are part of that thing by the hand of fate...but at the same time, you're free to explore the world for as long as you like, doing whatever you like, until you decide to answer the call of New Vegas.

Quote from: silva;649339Yup, exactly.

Maybe thats the reason I like it. I loooove those archaic choose-your-own-adventure books.

Well, make sure you spread the good word and let the rest of the shared narrative community hear of your epiphany, for fear they release any more dodgy shared narrative games.

Quote from: Rincewind1;649340KoDP is fun, yes, but I much prefer the Fall from Heaven for my civilization needs, and PI's historical sandbox games (esp Crusader Kings 2 had a huge impact on my jaw) . Which I suppose speaks about my preferences quite well . I will admit though that I'd like a mix between the two - a fantasy setting with some form of a storyline/huge event going in the back, while with a strong sandbox strategy feel to it. It's why I loved New Vegas so much - because there is a huge thing going around, you are part of that thing by the hand of fate...but at the same time, you're free to explore the world for as long as you like, doing whatever you like, until you decide to answer the call of New Vegas.

Crusader Kings 2 is awesome. How is this Fall from Heaven like ? Never heard of it. (BTW, Alpha Centauri is still the best Civ game for me).

About New Vegas, I let it pass while playing Stalker Misery. But Im planning to go back to it soon. From what I hear, its the more faithful to the old Fallouts 1 and 2, right ?

Quote from: The TravellerWell, make sure you spread the good word and let the rest of the shared narrative community hear of your epiphany, for fear they release any more dodgy shared narrative games.

:rotfl:

Wtf? Im not a member of some shared narrative brotherhood or something you modafacka.

Quote from: silva;649347Wtf? Im not a member of some shared narrative brotherhood or something you modafacka.

Doesn't make your ass any less nailed to a wall, baby.

Quote from: silva;649347(BTW, Alpha Centauri is still the best Civ game for me).

Bah! Alien Crossfire all the way. All the coolness of Alpha Centauri, plus more projects and weapon options and the like. Just better.

(Except for the intro cinematic. The intro to Alpha Centauri was classic, the intro to Alien Crossfire fairly cheesy.)

Quote from: silva;648984Anyone seen this ?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/04/15/introducing-torchbearer-the-new-indie-dungeon-crawler-from-the-creators-of-burning-wheel/

Color me VERY interested.

My reaction is the same as when I read GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 1, it good but you (the author) are kinda of missing the point of why people want to play your system.

I.E. I don't want your system to emulate D&D, I want to use your system 'as is' to go dungeon crawling and I will live with the implications. Which for GURPS means 150 pt dungeon exploration is more like a series of stealth raids to avoid getting injured.

The same with Burning Wheels, make a dungeon and send Burning Wheel/Mouse Guard/etc characters through it and see how it works. Don't make your game work like D&D.

Because in the end when people want to play D&D they are going to play D&D and not something like it.

Quote from: silva;649347Crusader Kings 2 is awesome. How is this Fall from Heaven like ? Never heard of it. (BTW, Alpha Centauri is still the best Civ game for me).

About New Vegas, I let it pass while playing Stalker Misery. But Im planning to go back to it soon. From what I hear, its the more faithful to the old Fallouts 1 and 2, right ?

It is very much awesome, and yes - it draws a lot of unused stuff from Van Buren as well. Powder Gangers, The Burned Man (Joshua Graham), some towns, New California Republic versus Brotherhood of Steel conflict, the list could go on and on.

It is a genuine evolution of the timeline from Fallout 2 - except they have (finally? It nagged me a bit even in Fallout 2, though Enclave made for quite a believable, if somewhat terrible, foe) let the "you are saving the Post Apocalyptic World" plotline to rest this time, instead engaging full - time into what I love the most about post apocalypse - the genuine problems of people who had rebuilt/are rebuilding the society, and are again committing the same mistakes that those before them committed. In the words of Pearlman, War truly never changes, and it certainly did not change in Nevada. If you like Postman - the novel - and/or Canticle for Leibowitz, you will love the themes of New Vegas. I'd even say that, in a way, New Vegas' main storyline - that, of it's titular city - draws heavily from the fantasy trope of a Dragon Sitting On It's Horde, with two nations - "adventurers" fighting for it.

The world is really a huge sandbox, with a very high level of verisimilitude. The whole Post Apocalyptic Western mood got to me so much, that for 80% of the game, until I got some really awesome armour, I was constantly wearing cowboy outfit and hat, using Magnum .44 and Winchester despite having better choices.

And yes, as for the factions themselves...we have a full time grey area this time, and you can join whoever you want. NCR is of course closer to white, and Caesar's Legion much, much closer to black, but they aren't monochromes of neither colour. NCR is being shown as people who rebuild the wasteland quite like the old America, but they are also a bureaucratic institution, with large taxes, which is really ruled more by a military junta that's struggling against and in times, alongside oligarchs such as brahmin baron, and cracking down heavily on people trying to upset this balance, rather than a genuine democracy.

Caesar's Legion on the other hand is a neo - feudal organisation, ruled by a skilled demagogue, which is engaging in horrible acts of slavery and degradation - but at the same time, they are also cracking heavily on drugs and booze, rebuilding the places they conquer, joining the tribes into one big culture, eschewing some advances of the old world but also embracing some, and bringing technological advantages to the backwards tribes. And their iron - handed methods keep the lands they conquer safer than NCR's trade routes, which causes trade within their territory flourish. You can see they could be quite a bit like Vandals or Goths, so to speak - people who would tear down the remnants of the Old World (NCR), and replace it with something different - not necessarily better or worse, just different.

There's also of course Mister House - a genius capitalist responsible for [well I won't spoil you the surprise ], who wishes to lead New Vegas to a full capitalistic, free - marketed glory under it's enlightened despotism, vaults of pre - War technology and vast knowledge...but at the same time, there is a very important clue to that character - his snow globe collection. You can't help but get a feeling that he treats New Vegas like a huge snow globe, where he wishes to keep the Old World preserved.

And there is of course...You. Which for me was perhaps the best part of the game, though not the endgame I pursued (I sided with the Fat Cat, obviously), but yes, you can also stake your own claim to New Vegas.

Most importantly perhaps - you can feel genuine realism of all the NPCs involved in this conflict. Master was believable, Enclave in F2 - I feel a bit less about them, but they still had a reasonable motivation for their plot. Enclave in F3...well, that felt like a reheated hot dog. Especially because their plan was straight out of Cobra Villainy Handbook, and as much as I like Liberty Prime, the whole ending was just...meh for me.

Ah yes, and in all my praise for F:NV I forgot about Fall From Heaven - if you love dark fantasy and like civilisation IV, you will love it. Every faction, and there's quite a few of them, plays completely different. And there's even a nation ruled by an insane God - King powerful psyker, which looks and acts like Joker from Batman started his own nation.

Quote:rotfl:

Wtf? Im not a member of some shared narrative brotherhood or something you modafacka.

Well, that's what you'd say if you were a member of Brotherhood of Narrative, wouldn't you?

Quote from: The Traveller;649348Doesn't make your ass any less nailed to a wall, baby.

Come on. Humble In Victory, Gracious In Defeat.

Quote from: gleichman;649297Plus I noted an air of condescension about the whole thing with the murder hoboo part phrase indicating it's more of a parody than not. Of course the subject is worth a parody or two, but I doubt it will be funny. The subject just doesn't seem fun as really they're focused on the more depressing and boring elements of the concept.

Spot on.