The Wargaming Thread

[Sable Wyvern]

Lack of opponents means that I do most of my wargaming via PC.

I've quite enjoyed Decisive Campaigns: Barbarassa, Flashpoint Campaigns and Wargame: AirLand Battle over the last 12 months. Also taking a look at Command Ops 2 at the moment.

Birds of Prey is the only true tabletop wargame I've played in the last few years. It's an absolutely amazing modern air combat simulation. It's extremely dense, and takes a lot of effort to learn straight out of the rulebook (as I had to do), but it's relatively easy to teach, and extremely intuitive to play once you understand the fundamentals. Works best with multiple players per side, though, and I never got around to doing that.

One of my favourite wargames of all time is Close Action: The Age of Fighting Sail, which is another game that's quite dense and takes effort to learn from the rulebook, but is much easier to teach others, and runs very smoothly in play once the fundamentals are understood. If you can get 8 - 10 people together for a game, the communication system results in some absolutely brilliant fun.

I'm waiting on my massive piles of minis from the Polyversal kickstarter so that I can get back into 6mm sci fi. I had an absurdly massive collection of Space Marine minis back in the day (I could pretty much field the entire Space Wolves chapter, with Titan Legion and Imperial Guard support, plus an Eldar opposition force of equal value), which I sold in fit of anti-GW-rage; something I've long regretted doing. I've got five or six people who have all said they'd be willing to play Polyversal once or twice a year, so I should be able to get a game in most months. Of course, I'm working on the assumption that the rules aren't shit, which still remains to be seen.

Back in the day, I played a bit of World in Flames against my brother. We had high hopes for the Matrix games PC version, as setting up that monster of a game and keeping it set up for months at a time is completely impractical. Unfortunately, it remains to be seen if the PC version will ever be fully playable (last I check, managing convoys was simply far too much effort and would be an absolute nightmare for the Commonwealth player).

[chirine ba kal]

Interesting thread. I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that 'wargaming' is different then 'RPG gaming'. But then, I freely admit that I'm weird.

For starters, getting into miniatures? Play with somebody else's figures. If you like what you see and how the games go, then get some of the plastic sets and have at it. Very small investment in tooling and painting, very small investment in figures, and you can always find somebody to take them if you don't like the genre.

One caveat: stay in the hobby, and when you get to be my age you'll have a basement like mine. Luckily for me, The Missus likes miniatures herself, and all of the girls like to play and paint. (They also know how to use big power tools as well, which makes them just as weird as dear old dad.)

[Spinachcat]

Tristram, thank you for the pics!! Are any of those yours?

I love minis and I can't glue or paint worth a damn. But that's what eBay is for!

I can easily buy painted armies for the same price as unpainted, unglued figs. Often for much less if I am going after "older" edition figs.

The only downside is I rarely have an army with a fully unified paint job. But that's a minor issue for me compared the huge fun of getting to play with my toys.

BTW, I totally understand what Chirine means about the RPG / Wargaming mix. My fav minis events are all about scenarios with players acting out their commanders and immersing themselves into the battle. It's often why I've hosted events where I supply the minis - which is really cheap and easy if you use Mage Knight stuff.

[Tristram Evans]

Tristram, thank you for the pics!! Are any of those yours?

Alas no, I don't have the extra space for any permanent set-ups, my board changes weekly depending on the scenario, so I just have tons of individual terrain and buildings.

Hope to have a basement at some point where I can sustain more than one 6 x 4" table.

[Tristram Evans]

Interesting thread. I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that 'wargaming' is different then 'RPG gaming'. But then, I freely admit that I'm weird.

There'a pretty blurry line (that I like to dance around), but generally I call it "wargamming" when I'm using minis, and "RPGing" when its "theatre of the mind."

[Tod13]

There'a pretty blurry line (that I like to dance around), but generally I call it "wargamming" when I'm using minis, and "RPGing" when its "theatre of the mind."

To me, "wargaming" is when I'm mostly concerned with the strategy and tactics involved, instead of role-playing. "RPG" is when I'm mostly concerned with the "role-playing". (I might decide a commander in a wargame "likes" a particular tactic, or give bonuses to an RPGer that suggested a good tactic. But the point of the game is different.)

I know a lot of people here tend to be concerned about both at the same time, but we(me and my group) aren't. It kind of came up today in our RPG session. We're play-testing the RPG I wrote. I asked if they were happy with how combat went, the level of tactics needed, difficulty, and time for a turn. Basically, we don't really care too much about order within a turn and exact facings and stuff--if they become important--are hand-waved, role-played, or determined by dice. So that's role-playing for us.

[Gronan of Simmerya]

Interesting thread. I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that 'wargaming' is different then 'RPG gaming'. But then, I freely admit that I'm weird.

Weeeeeellll.... to ME... and this is just one aging grognard's opinion... if the main object of the pastime is the battle itself, or the series of battles itself, such as the "Battle on the Ice" at GaryCon or the "Megarran Campaign" Phil ran... it's a wargame.  If the main object of the pastime is "inhabit an imaginary world", it's an RPG.

A couple years back at GaryCon Anthony Savatini interviewed me again for his documentary and we got to talking about the referee.  I said that what Dave [EDIT: WESLEY, NOT ARNESON!  JESUS!] added in Braunstein was the referee who was "the rest of the world." Usually in a wargame, the only figures present are the combatants, or if there are noncombatants they are victims or rescuees, and the referee is a "referee" in the football game sense, there to insure fair play; in a RPG you could walk down to the dock and ask some random sailor (the referee) "What ship is that" and he'd say "Yarr, that be the Poxy Strumpet out of Barnacle Bay."

What (again, to me) makes Braunstein and its offspring move further on the "RPG" side of the spectrum is the emphasis on things other than straight military actions.

But this is all opinion.  Reasonably informed opinion, I would say, based on a lot of experience, but still just opinion.

[Tod13]

Weeeeeellll.... to ME... and this is just one aging grognard's opinion... if the main object of the pastime is the battle itself, or the series of battles itself, such as the "Battle on the Ice" at GaryCon or the "Megarran Campaign" Phil ran... it's a wargame.  If the main object of the pastime is "inhabit an imaginary world", it's an RPG.

But this is all opinion.  Reasonably informed opinion, I would say, based on a lot of experience, but still just opinion.

I'm old(ish) but I'm pretty sure I'm not a grognard, and I'll agree with your reasonably elegant definition.

[chirine ba kal]

Weeeeeellll.... to ME... and this is just one aging grognard's opinion... if the main object of the pastime is the battle itself, or the series of battles itself, such as the "Battle on the Ice" at GaryCon or the "Megarran Campaign" Phil ran... it's a wargame.  If the main object of the pastime is "inhabit an imaginary world", it's an RPG.

A couple years back at GaryCon Anthony Savatini interviewed me again for his documentary and we got to talking about the referee.  I said that what Dave Arneson added in Braunstein was the referee who was "the rest of the world." Usually in a wargame, the only figures present are the combatants, or if there are noncombatants they are victims or rescuees, and the referee is a "referee" in the football game sense, there to insure fair play; in a RPG you could walk down to the dock and ask some random sailor (the referee) "What ship is that" and he'd say "Yarr, that be the Poxy Strumpet out of Barnacle Bay."

What (again, to me) makes Braunstein and its offspring move further on the "RPG" side of the spectrum is the emphasis on things other than straight military actions.

But this is all opinion.  Reasonably informed opinion, I would say, based on a lot of experience, but still just opinion.

I think I agree with all this, myself. What's been baffling me have been the references to 'wargames' in relation to 'rpgs', where the former seems to involve he use of micrometers, calipers, and similar precision devices in play. Never saw that, back in the day, and I wonder where this has come from...

[wombat1]

Going back to the original poster's comments, that is a store after my own heart, though Alberta is a bit of a trek for me I fear.

A couple of friends of mine at the Iowa State University club are working on a set of Spanish Succession war rules right now, and playtesting them.  The work seems fairly well in hand, but I fear it is not my period so I know rather little about it otherwise.  My own taste runs to Napoleon's Battles either in the original 15 mm or scaled up for 25/28.

[Gronan of Simmerya]

I think I agree with all this, myself. What's been baffling me have been the references to 'wargames' in relation to 'rpgs', where the former seems to involve he use of micrometers, calipers, and similar precision devices in play. Never saw that, back in the day, and I wonder where this has come from...

I think it's always been there in potentia. Remember the English Phil Barker saying "those Minneapolis gamers would rather argue than play?" Now their spiritual descendents have more elaborate toys to use in their arguments.

[David Johansen]

It's the whole tournament culture and mindset.  Though GW did make some fun renaissance looking plastic callipers and templates for Warhammer 8th edition.  At $40 they should have been brass, not plastic.

Now, laser pointers I like, great for determining line of sight.  I think GW sells one of those at an absurd mark up too.

Really, I'm surprised they didn't invent their own system of measurement with its own units to force people to buy and use only official Games Workshop measuring devices.

[Gronan of Simmerya]

Really, I'm surprised they didn't invent their own system of measurement with its own units to force people to buy and use only official Games Workshop measuring devices.

They didn't think of it.  Units with color coded move increments, each of which is some bizarre number.  "RED = 6 17/64 inches, BLUE = 9.003017 inches," etc.

[David Johansen]

Actually, I think the Blood Bowl Range ruler works like that.

Ah, well, GW bashing is one of my favorite pass times but it's not really wargaming.

Anyone got a dream project that will probably never be?

Mine is to run a 15mm grav tank assault on a flying city with units below the city on the ground in 6mm.  

[Tristram Evans]

Anyone got a dream project that will probably never be?

I'd like to recreate/play out the Inquisition's invasion of Holy Terra from WITEHATTSD