Quote from: Spike;916074Random thought:  Anyone remember Dead Or Alive Beach Volleyball?

I mean, here is a game so throughly tailored to the young adolescent male mind (and it was GLORIOUS!!!), that it had breast jiggle physics specifically designed for it (and then fucked up in DOA:BV2, when they decided more jiggle was better and now each boob was its own semi-sentient eldrirtch horror bent on world domination... and I'll remind you each character has TWO!).


Its enduring popularity, however, was with women. Mothers and daughters would play it together.

Why?

Because they loved the social aspects of the gifting mechanics and the collecting of cute (skimpy) outfits.  

Guys? They liked it for a while, then went and watched porn.

Heh. My wife bought that one so we could play it together. I don't like sports games thought, so we went back to fighters. I think it's still collecting dust on my shelf.

Ok a while back i said i had more on overwatch now for the most part its all pretty tame with overwatch no massive censorship issues and blizzard has done a good job of holding there ground as a whole but there have been a few things so lets take a look at them.
So of the handful of things that have been censored the 1st was way back in the beta there was an out house on the route 66 map that had some consept art of some of the overwatch girls peeking out from under the door pretty simple pg13 sex joke if you ask me but some one didnt think so and it was removed its unclear if some one complained of if blizzerd changed there mind.



Now the 2nd one is a bit hoter Tracer has a victory pose called over the shoulder that placed her keester squarely in the middle of the screen.
And of coarse some guy went to the forums and wined about it Standard its to sexy type who ha and one of the guys who works for blizzard i cant remember his name lost his shit at the guy then his boss told him he was sorry and that they would change it.

At this point its hard to tell if blizzard actually caved to the sjw mob or not because in the interim of the we will change it announcement and it happening there was a "blizzard caved" backlash that may have been bigger then the sjw attack.
Now when the change came out Blizzard had changed it to match a rather famous pin up picture and the sjws ragged and dont seem to have gotten any where since on the issue.

*video of the story
Its worth pointing out that both poses fit her character and personality.

Now the 3rd one is back to the over watch petition i posted back on page 4.

This is actually kind of interesting as it was started as a joke to make fun of the sjws and in truth it is still rather scary given the number of people who seem to have signed it legitimately buying in to it thinking they could push blizzard.

Ok this is the last one and i big one rather recently a Hindi Regulus leader had a fit about overwatch  degrading his religion because symmetra had 2 costumes based off one of the hindi gods.

*the other is a pallet swap*
Now if this sounds familiar it should he had the same shit storm about the moba smite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiPZFPYhmzs*sorry youtube has a short collective memory and its the only vid i can find*
Not this got the whole sjw nut ball rolling and they attacked in force accusing overwatch of quote "cultural appropriation"
for every thing from pharah's Raindancer skin to zenyatas Djinn skin


Now this is scary if you ask me because what this amounts to is you represented a culture in some way we dint like and we are going to try and punish you for it standard sjw tactics but still worry some.
After all if you start that crap what it quickly turns in to is no one can use any cultural inspiration for any thing which leaves the entire world of fiction grey and bland.
Interestingly they said nothing about mccree as cultural appropriation.

Sweet baby Jesus

I like the fact that so many of these moral authoritarians are being pushed out of regular society so hard, that they're desperately clinging to interests that they perceive as 'full of weaklings'.  Like, the first thing out of their filthy stinking lips when the Gamergate thing happened was how gamers were all a bunch of 'fat neckbeards, living in their mothers' basements'.  Then they found out otherwise.

I'm waiting for some of these gaming companies to find an opportunity to sue these people for defamation or slander at some point- after all, a good chunk of what they've said has turned out to be outright fabrications.  Maybe when some of these Outrage Fetishists are sued to the point where they're begging on the street for a piece of cold chicken or a can of string beans, they'll finally be shuffled away from oblivion and become nonexistent.

Quote from: Crüesader;918358I like the fact that so many of these moral authoritarians are being pushed out of regular society so hard, that they're desperately clinging to interests that they perceive as 'full of weaklings'.  Like, the first thing out of their filthy stinking lips when the Gamergate thing happened was how gamers were all a bunch of 'fat neckbeards, living in their mothers' basements'.  Then they found out otherwise.

I'm waiting for some of these gaming companies to find an opportunity to sue these people for defamation or slander at some point- after all, a good chunk of what they've said has turned out to be outright fabrications.  Maybe when some of these Outrage Fetishists are sued to the point where they're begging on the street for a piece of cold chicken or a can of string beans, they'll finally be shuffled away from oblivion and become nonexistent.

And yet. And yet.

Check out Morgan Spurlock's Inside Man series, the recent episode "Game Changers" had him tagging along with two professional League of Legends teams, one male one female, to provide him (and us!) with an insight into that life. This link provides some clips, I believe the full episode is available on YouTube, may or not be official.

Needless to say, the pro women had all experienced horrific abuse online, and get it every time they are recognisable online. Credit to them they pushed past, and are likely much better players than their abusers ever will be.


Does that mean that all game designers are misogynistic? That every male gamer is a bigot?

Of course not.

It also doesn't excuse the mis-steps and over-steps that the pro-reform campaigners have made.


Our society is lot freer, and a lot more open and relaxed than at almost any time in history. Mini-skirts don't shock. Sex Pistols' music is used in TV adverts. The internet enables pornography for all.
But our society is still riven with issues. Sexism is a big one. Every day we read yet another news story, Roger Ailes' ouster from Fox News is just the latest high-profile example.


Again, there's nothing wrong with pushing back against the mis-steps and over-steps that have been made.

But those celebrating this kind of imagery, believing themselves to be paladins of free speech, pushing back against 'moral authoritarians'? It's just weak sauce. Because there's definitely a significant Venn overlap between those that celebrate this imagery and those that enjoy the abuse of the pro-gamers I mentioned above.

Time for someone to make Sexy Hotpants Virgin Mary adventures, then? With special "3rd Person" POV cam, and enhanced butt-jiggle modeling technology?

Quote from: Motorskills;918812And yet. And yet.

Check out Morgan Spurlock's Inside Man series, the recent episode "Game Changers" had him tagging along with two professional League of Legends teams, one male one female, to provide him (and us!) with an insight into that life. This link provides some clips, I believe the full episode is available on YouTube, may or not be official.

Yeah, no. Documentaries need to be taken with a major grain of salt, because by their very nature they're going to discard a lot of the footage they get in favor of what makes for the better story. As a general rule, a documentary should be taken in the same manner as a flyer or a pamphlet with regards to whatever issue they're examining; they're good for generating interest, but you should always follow them up with your own research rather than letting them do your thinking for you.

QuoteNeedless to say, the pro women had all experienced horrific abuse online, and get it every time they are recognisable online. Credit to them they pushed past, and are likely much better players than their abusers ever will be.

Insofar as online harassment goes, the Pew Research Center has found that not only are men more likely to experience it than women (44% for men vs. 37% for women), but this is also true for most (and the most prevalent) forms of harassment as well:

Called offensive names: men 32% / women 22%
Purposefully embarrassed: men 24% / women 20%
Physically threatened: men 10% / women 6%
Harassed for a sustained period: men 8% / women 7%
Stalked: men 6% / women 9%
Sexually harassed: men 4% / women 7%

Moreover, men are more likely to experience this harassment specifically in the realm of online gaming than women are: men 21% / women 11%.

The real kicker, however, is that women are more likely to find harassment upsetting than men are. The breakdown of reactions is as follows:

Extremely upsetting: men 9% / women 18%
Very upsetting: men 8% / women 20%
Somewhat upsetting: men 19% / women 24%
A little upsetting: men 33% / 26%
Not at all upsetting: men 31% / women 12%

In other words, framing the harassment as something specific to the female LoL team is notable only that they're in the minority of female gamers who not only received harassment, but didn't let it affect them very much.

QuoteDoes that mean that all game designers are misogynistic? That every male gamer is a bigot?

Of course not.

It also doesn't excuse the mis-steps and over-steps that the pro-reform campaigners have made.

That's kind of the point of this thread.

QuoteOur society is lot freer, and a lot more open and relaxed than at almost any time in history. Mini-skirts don't shock. Sex Pistols' music is used in TV adverts. The internet enables pornography for all.
But our society is still riven with issues. Sexism is a big one. Every day we read yet another news story, Roger Ailes' ouster from Fox News is just the latest high-profile example.

Our society has issues, and sexism is still an issue; but notwithstanding everyone's personal take on what the big issues are, it's debatable that it's "a big one." Part of this is because we have a lot of people diluting it by taking trivial instances where something bad happens to a woman - e.g. you can kill female characters in Grand Theft Auto V - and presenting that as being indicative of sexism being a "big issue."

You're not wrong to note the story with Roger Ailes. But for every one of those there's a Dr. Matt Taylor being made to weep on television because he happened to wear the wrong shirt while landing a satellite on a comet, and was called "the reason why women aren't welcome in STEM."

QuoteAgain, there's nothing wrong with pushing back against the mis-steps and over-steps that have been made.

Yeah, we know. That's what this thread is about.

QuoteBut those celebrating this kind of imagery, believing themselves to be paladins of free speech, pushing back against 'moral authoritarians'? It's just weak sauce. Because there's definitely a significant Venn overlap between those that celebrate this imagery and those that enjoy the abuse of the pro-gamers I mentioned above.

Trolls on the internet have a Venn overlap with everything. Postulating that gaming is somehow worse in this regard - without evidence, no less - is the real weak sauce.

Quote from: Alzrius;919084That's kind of the point of this thread.

Actually the point of this thread seems to be having a love-in that conflates pushing back against over-reach with promoting inappropriate treatment [of women].

The Pew poll is interesting. And AFAIK they are a respected organization.

I'll confess I only skimmed the first couple of pages of the report, but to a (very!) layman, the output looked solid. The problem however (unless it is covered in later pages), is that the report is talking about online harassment in general, and not harassment in the gaming world.

If the numbers were equally valid for both, you would have male players pretending to be female players, not the well-established other way around.

Quote from: Motorskills;919111The Pew poll is interesting. And AFAIK they are a respected organization.

I'll confess I only skimmed the first couple of pages of the report, but to a (very!) layman, the output looked solid. The problem however (unless it is covered in later pages), is that the report is talking about online harassment in general, and not harassment in the gaming world.

If the numbers were equally valid for both, you would have male players pretending to be female players, not the well-established other way around.

I skimmed it some more, and the numbers feel legit to me.

Gaming environments are addressed.

However I do think you are comparing apples with oranges here. 66% of folks experienced harassment in social media environments, only 16% reported harassment in gaming environments.

If you could run a reliable poll asking "out" women gamers whether they have experienced harassment, I would imagine the number would be approaching 100%. How many women choose to play under male or non-gender names to avoid harassment - more than a few I would imagine? How many male players deliberately hid their gender - a much smaller proportion.

Quote from: PewYoung women, those 18-24, experience certain severe types of harassment at disproportionately high levels: 26% of these young women have been stalked online, and 25% were the target of online sexual harassment. In addition, they do not escape the heightened rates of physical threats and sustained harassment common to their male peers and young people in general.

Bolding mine. Now note - those aren't young female gamers. Those are all young women (polled). And the bulk of those are being harassed in 'open' environments. How much worse must be it in 'closed' gaming environments?

I don't think that Pew data reinforces your position. It reinforces mine.

Then what do you propose should be done about 'harassment', oh White Knight?  Should we ban saying mean things to women?

Quote from: Motorskills;919108Actually the point of this thread seems to be having a love-in that conflates pushing back against over-reach with promoting inappropriate treatment [of women].

I don't agree; I'll confess that I haven't gone back and skimmed the thread, so maybe I'm missing something, but insofar as I recall no one is "promoting inappropriate treatment" of women. (A caveat being that female video game characters are not women; they're video game characters. Hence, the idea of treating them "inappropriately" is moot.)

Quote from: Motorskills;919111The Pew poll is interesting. And AFAIK they are a respected organization.

I'll confess I only skimmed the first couple of pages of the report, but to a (very!) layman, the output looked solid. The problem however (unless it is covered in later pages), is that the report is talking about online harassment in general, and not harassment in the gaming world.

If the numbers were equally valid for both, you would have male players pretending to be female players, not the well-established other way around.

The report covers harassment on the Internet in general, but it does talk about online gaming several times, albeit usually as part of a breakdown of some aspect of a given topic. For example:

• When sampling for where harassment took place, online gaming was the result only 16% of the time.
• This number climbs to 26% among 18-29 year-olds (rising to 34% if limited to males of this age bracket), and climbs even further to 31% when limited to 18-24 year-olds.
• When sampling for perceptions of what online "neighborhoods" were more welcoming to one gender or the other, online gaming was found to be 51% for "equally welcoming to both genders," 3% for "more welcoming to women," and 44% for "more welcoming to men." The former two scores were the lowest of the neighborhoods samples, whereas the latter was the highest. (2% was listed as "no answer" to this breakdown.)
  
• The numbers listed above were aggregates of the responses given by men and women. When limited to women alone, the number who believed that online gaming was equally welcome to both genders actually increased by a small amount, to 55%.
• Harassment in online gaming is more prevalent among younger people, being 26% likely for 18-29 year-olds, 10% likely for 30-49 year-olds, and 9% likely 50+ year-olds. These numbers are comparable to harassment in personal email accounts, (10%, 14%, and 28% respectively), but are far below the harassment on social media (74%, 70%, and 44% respectively).
• Social media was found to be where most harassment takes place: 59% for men and 73% for women. For online gaming, those numbers (mentioned previously) are 21% for men and 11% for women. Finally, the comments section of a website were 31% for men and 12% for women.

Quote from: Motorskills;91913866% of folks experienced harassment in social media environments, only 16% reported harassment in gaming environments.

Except the entire concept of "harassment" has become debased into "any comment I don't like"

Women want equality? Great! Men trash talk the fuck out of each other in competitive environments. Men break down other men every damn day.

Ladies, welcome to the mosh pit.

Quote from: Spinachcat;919144Except the entire concept of "harassment" has become debased into "any comment I don't like"

You also forgot it means "contesting a statement I've made".

Quote from: Motorskills;919138However I do think you are comparing apples with oranges here. 66% of folks experienced harassment in social media environments, only 16% reported harassment in gaming environments.

If you could run a reliable poll asking "out" women gamers whether they have experienced harassment, I would imagine the number would be approaching 100%. How many women choose to play under male or non-gender names to avoid harassment - more than a few I would imagine? How many male players deliberately hid their gender - a much smaller proportion.

You're making presumptions, with no data to back them up, to try and invalidate the results of data that doesn't match what you believe. I would strongly advise against doing this, as it's the hallmark of the "feelz not realz" argument that is held as typifying SJWs.

I won't say that the point you've raised isn't an interesting one, but given that we have no data (let alone reliable data) on it, I would recommend sticking with the reliable information that we do have, rather than holding forth with conjecture.

QuoteBolding mine. Now note - those aren't young female gamers. Those are all young women (polled). And the bulk of those are being harassed in 'open' environments. How much worse must be it in 'closed' gaming environments?

First of all, that's only worse when you limit it to women in the 18-24 age category. As the study notes, when you look at all ages, men are the ones who are harassed more often. Second of all, the data says how much women are harassed in gaming environments (I'm not sure what you mean by "closed"): 11%, which is almost half of the 21% of men who experience harassment in such environments.

QuoteI don't think that Pew data reinforces your position. It reinforces mine.

I don't believe that to be the case. You seem to be selectively interpreting the data via unsubstantiated presumptions regarding "out" handles in online gaming (which, I should note, seems to be limited to usernames and other textual input only, as opposed to voice-chatting where that would be much harder). You're also limiting your viewpoint to one age segment rather than the whole female population online, the latter of which I think is more salient. Finally, you're presuming that undefined "closed" environments are worse, despite that fact that we have a clear breakdown of the harassment that goes on in online gaming.

As such, the data doesn't seem to reinforce your position if you take away those presumptions and look solely at the information that's presented in the report.