http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/06/on-maturity-40k-and-slaanesh.html

And it all starts with the author discussing some shit-tier anime he watched when he was young.  Of course, when someone says 'shit-tier' anime, to me that's like saying 'caffeinated coffee' because the only other kind is some kind of oddity.  But then we get to the selling point of every moral authoritarian argument, ever:  

"But the children!"

Of course, if you stick with it he starts going into the DC/Vertigo 'Sandman' storyline, which is basically the hipster comic of the era.  Call me a bit too 'normal', but I tend to favor comics that are less about existential problems and more about some asshole unleashing some horrible shit and the good guys trying to un-fuck it the best they can without beating each other senseless in the process (sort of like the usual family vacation).

Of special note:   Neil Gaiman has lent financial aid to an enthusiast of loli porn.  So, let's just put that on the table and remember this is the Swine we're talking about, they aren't known for being consistent.

But then he gets to the topic at hand.  I'll make 'quotes' for him.

QuoteThing is, a ‘god of pleasure’ sounds fine and all, but it’s actually a very difficult thing to pull off (no pun intended). In-universe, the Chaos gods are inherently corrupting, and when you mix that with ‘pleasure’ what happens is you get all kinds of Unfortunate Implications. If the god of pleasure is a corrupting power, then any pleasure is potentially corrupting. Sex becomes, by its nature, morally dangerous… which is only a short hop, skip and jump to things like slut-shaming, homophobia, transphobia… And that’s before we even get to ideas like drugs, which, again, is a very dangerous area to look at. Issues relating to addiction require huge nuance, because these are real-world issues that have real-world consequences.

Okay, so for those of us who don't think like an outrage fetishist ('think' is used loosely):  Slaanesh isn't necessarily the 'God of Pleasure'.  His followers may call him that, but we all know there's major religions (plural) that claim to be 'of peace' and yet have been at ground zero of more war and bloodshed than anything else.  Slaanesh is the god of excess- the Eldar created this thing because when they were king shit in the galaxy, they had nothing better to do than go to extremes when it came to sensory at the expense of others.   That meant they'd torture, rape, manipulate, pretty much every corrupt thing you can do without stepping into Khorne's turf and just outright killing a shitload of people.  

But here's another typical example of someone skewing the idea toward protecting transgendered people and sluts.  I'm not saying anything is wrong with either one of them, don't get me wrong:  I'll have you know that some of my best friends are transgendered and some of my even better ones are sluts.  The issue I'm taking is that the author is using a piece of fiction and pretending that it turns people into slut/tranny-haters.  I mean, for fuck's sake... about all Slaanesh has the capability to offer in the tabletop game is the Noise Marines and Daemonettes.  Even with the recent love GW's giving Chaos, it's all focused on Khorne and a bit of Tzeentch.  Slaanesh is much, much more appreciated in Dark Heresy.

QuoteNow, I’m not going to get caught up in a discussion of drugs or sex here; the only point I’m making is that these are by nature, sensitive issues: they’re ones that require maturity to discuss, confront, or represent successfully… Which is why I think that maybe they’re ones that are perhaps not best explored through the medium of tabletop wargaming.

You know, just a question here:  Is this what people are doing?  Are they 'exploring' drugs and sex through little plastic and resin miniatures?  Who is doing this, anywhere?  Another example of the outrage brigade pretending people are using their entertainment as therapy and education.

QuoteNot to mention, it’s a tabletop wargame that by financial necessity, needs to be aimed at children as well as adults. A faction where you can legitimately joke about how they main pure heroin into the bulbous veins of a noise marine’s leathebound nine-inches really isn’t appropriate in a game that has always marketed itself at the young. Certainly not enough to justify their inclusion, which is why I think it makes sense to slowly pull the limelight from Slaanesh.

And here we go, the meat of the argument.  I'm going to clue you in on something- It's not my job, nor is it the job of Games Workshop or any other business to raise your fucking children.    If you're worried about what your kids are playing with, then stop blogging and raise your fucking kids.  And if it makes you feel better, I don't game with kids because people who buy Warhammer shit for their kids generally have spoiled little obnoxious brats.  There, I said it.  I don't care if that's offensive, stop worrying about my opinion of kids and worry about being a parent and you won't be as traumatized by plastic titties.

QuoteNot to mention the deeply regressive imagery of ‘seductive Daemonettes’. And that’s before we even mention the clear homophobic/horribly transphobic stuff that’s going on there as well. Ultimately, a lot of Slaanesh’s stuff, while potentially cool, is clearly going to alienate a lot of potential customers, and I’m not just talking about women here. Plenty of guys I know scoff at GW because of the Daemonette nonsense.

Pictured:  'Seductive'
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Apparently also 'transphobic', which I'm not seeing.  Why do all of these moral authoritarians think that the average person is mentally unhinged and incapable of distinguishing fantasy from reality?  I'm thinking they're mentally unhinged, and the old saying is that 'thieves judge by their own moral condition'.  News flash:  If people are taking their perceptions of reality and building their prejudices and morality on little plastic miniatures and roleplaying games, these people are not fucking relevant or sane.

Jesus, man.  It's the 1990's again, and I'm hearing that youth minister from church talking about how rock music is going to make me do drugs, get AIDS, and commit suicide.

QuoteMaturity is the ability to respond to the environment in an appropriate manner. This response is generally learned rather than instinctive. The outdated ideas about sex and sexuality – and they are outdated – that Slaanesh represents are simply not appropriate for the game any more. They’re not appropriate for younger gamers; they’re insulting to women, to trans and intersex people, as well as to any man whose sexuality extends beyond five quick pumps whilst thinking of England. The mature response would be to acknowledge this, and avoid the instinct to avoid change. Change terrifies people, especially members of the geek community, who loathe retcons with a passion that could eclipse suns.

Pictured:  Another nerdy white heterosexual beta telling me what's offensive to women and transpersonnel.
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Author's picture on BOLS reads as follows:  "Dad, Gamer, Publisher. All games all the time since junior-high. I should go outside more.." Yes, you fucking should.  Interact with some real people instead of what the internet tells you 'gamers' are like.

QuoteSo what to do? Well, in my opinion, the best solution would be to ‘retire’ Slaanesh as a GW-produced faction and make the army Forge World’s property. If you’ve not read any of FW’s books, I can attest that they have demonstrated time and again that they can do nuance. Not to mention, FW’s models are NOT targeted at children, but explicitly as adult collectors, meaning it’s possible to completely ignore that issue of inappropriateness. GW as a company can completely take advantage of this, having its cake and eating it, and they should. Obviously, this does nothing to overcome the inherent problems of sexist models, or the deeply embedded homophobic and transphobic imagery, but that’s something which can be looked at over time in Black Library books, Forge World supplements, and FFG RPG supplements.

And here we go, this 'dad' is expecting a company to do his parenting for him and hide plastic titties from his children.  That's your job to be the parent.  Don't want your kids exposed to a part of the fiction/game?  Then be a fucking man, be a fucking dad, be a good gamer and PARENT your children instead of expecting a business and other people to do it for you.  

And as far as models being 'sexist'?  Well, hang on- didn't you just say that it was 'slut-shaming' to have an antiquated view of sex, and here you are- saying they're 'sexist' because these butterface claw-bitches are wearing bikinis?  Oh, Swine- if doublethink were an olympic sport you'd have more gold than the king of Mali.

QuoteSlaanesh has already been replaced by the Horned Rat in AoS, which clearly shows it can be done in 40K too. To be honest, this is the ideal opportunity to do something exciting and new for Chaos players, giving them a whole new Chaos power to deal with. They could bring back Malal, or they could choose something else to fill the gap more naturally. Either way, it would be a step towards turning 40K into an actual, truly mature environment, and that can only be a good thing.

A- Age of Sigmar has more hate than any GW product in the last 20 years.  They seriously designed this game to actually cater to non-competitive casuals and kids with more access to dad's wallet than the average putz.  No, really- the company had to be pestered to put in a point system because it was ridiculously out of balance and nothing could stop you from plopping down 20 OP models.  At least, that's how I hear it.

Pause for effect her:  Age of Sigmar was actually Games Workshop creating an entirely new product, new models, and it got more hate than when they actually REMOVED models and products.

B- It's not 'mature' if we're censoring it to make up for your shit-tier parenting.  You want your kids to be mature and enjoy Warhammer?  Be a fucking father, make them earn their money, and stop pretending everyone in the real world takes their perceptions from fiction and plastic soldiers.

C- Malal doesn't exist, it was a bad idea, stop bringing this stupid shit up.

heh it's a funny thing isn't it?

I wouldn't worry too much Games Workshop looks at exactly one thing and one thing only and that's sales.

Quote from: David Johansen;917229I wouldn't worry too much Games Workshop looks at exactly one thing and one thing only and that's sales.

Someone said it elsewhere when the Swine were raging about 'muh soggy knees' in 40k:  "They don't listen to the people who throw hundreds of dollars into this hobby every year, what makes you think some random blogger that refuses to play the game is going to make them change their minds?"

Slaanesh is as much about tits as are the Cenobites from Hellraiser.  Forbidden knowledge, denigration of the self through attempted glorification of desire, experience that transcends humanity and reality - that's what it's all about.  Yeah sex, drugs and rock and roll are part of it, and a very easy part for most people to grasp, but Dark Heresy, where you combat Chaos in something other than a battlefield form, has a Slaanesh Cult that's a philosophical art movement.  Also, I never thought the old crab chicks were all that hot, even the one set of minis that was more like Witch Elves with claws, and getting licked by their mounts didn't seem too awesome either.  The "sex" part of Slaanesh was always a horrific, biological, body horror type of sex, like Shub-Niggurath or something.

Sure, getting in on the ground floor, it's awesome, like backstage at a Rock Concert, when you're dealing with 100% human cultists, then it starts moving into weirder Alt-Fetish areas, then the mutants and mutations start showing up, and your only real path is to end up some kind of Cenobite-like thing yourself, or a quivering puddle of nerves Chaos Spawn.

Don't know that Slaanesh needs to grow up, but that author certainly does.

These types don't give a shit about transgender people, children, minorities, etc.* Those are the human tools they use to try and bully people and businesses into making the world over in their own twisted image of "diversity, tolerance, justice, etc".

*Doubt me? Look up transgender MRAs like Theryn Meyer, consider how they treat conservative women, or conservative minorites.

Quote from: CRKrueger;917239Slaanesh is as much about tits as are the Cenobites from Hellraiser.  Forbidden knowledge, denigration of the self through attempted glorification of desire, experience that transcends humanity and reality - that's what it's all about.  Yeah sex, drugs and rock and roll are part of it, and a very easy part for most people to grasp, but Dark Heresy, where you combat Chaos in something other than a battlefield form, has a Slaanesh Cult that's a philosophical art movement.  Also, I never thought the old crab chicks were all that hot, even the one set of minis that was more like Witch Elves with claws, and getting licked by their mounts didn't seem too awesome either.  The "sex" part of Slaanesh was always a horrific, biological, body horror type of sex, like Shub-Niggurath or something.

Yeah, in the universe it's not 'sex' or 'pleasure' that's wrong- it's the blatant disregard for everything else in the pursuit of those things that's Slaanesh's territory.  A guy that has sex with multiple partners and then has a joint with his Amasec afterward isn't glorifying Slaanesh.  It's when that guy abandons everything, when he becomes so obsessed with sex or drugs that he harms others and only lives for the momentary experience.  Slaanesh draws nothing from an everyday person trying to enjoy life, or even someone with an addiction.  It's when they're willfully corrupt in this obsession that the Dark Prince gets a boner.  Or something.

Slaanesh is even more focused on obsession than anything- part of Fulgrim's fall was his obsession with perfection (to the point where when an artist told him that his sculpture of the Emperor was too perfect and lacked the little flaws that made artwork unique- Fulgrim skewered him and impaled him to the statue).  

Quote from: CRKrueger;917239Sure, getting in on the ground floor, it's awesome, like backstage at a Rock Concert, when you're dealing with 100% human cultists, then it starts moving into weirder Alt-Fetish areas, then the mutants and mutations start showing up, and your only real path is to end up some kind of Cenobite-like thing yourself, or a quivering puddle of nerves Chaos Spawn.

Our group that played a while back actually went to a Knight World that had a Slaanesh cult.  They were primarily obsessed with art and experiences, to the point where they tried to pay a 'tithe' in the form of a perfomance dedicated to Sanguinius- however, our Inquisitor found it to be heretical as it hinted at 'things' between Sanguinius and Horus so we had to find the artist.  And we did... and a Knight of Slaanesh.  I'll let you mull over what that monstrosity looked like.

Quote from: CRKrueger;917239Don't know that Slaanesh needs to grow up, but that author certainly does.

I don't know, 'grow up' might not be the word.  IMHO some of these folks act a bit more like old bitty busybody church ladies than anything else.  I'm all for Slaanesh getting some new goodness (I'd love the old Guitar Noise Marines to come back, if only because I want to get a big base, model some drums, and make a 'Chaos War Band' to sit on my stereo).  I mean, GW made the 'androgynous' Daemonettes because people like the author were whining about 'objectifying women'.  

I mean, even if they did scrap Slaanesh or sweep him/her under the rug at Forge World- how are you going to explain the Eldar?  Fuck, a MASSIVE chunk of the lore depends on Slaanesh.  The Chaos Gods were about as busy as Limp Bizkit and Ross Perot until he/she came into existence, and then shit started happening.

I think more than anything, the dude needs to do the following:

-Stop pretending 40k is for Children, FFS this is a game where the 'good guys' blow up entire fucking populated planets and Genestealer cults kidnap people for breeding stock (though, I'd honestly like to see a more sensible fluff for Genestealer cults).  Oh, and the Daemonculaba.  Yeah, there's that one.  No Slaanesh there, just straight fucked up (so bad that the writer REALLY wanted to kill off the characters that made it, but GW declined).

-Stop expecting the world to cater to his children and hide away all its naughtiness, because he's too lazy or inept to be a proper father and guide his children.  Maybe that's asking a lot, but I grew up in the 80's watching slasher movies and commando flicks with parental guidance.  I don't know what it is about geeks when they have children, but it's like all of a sudden they become shrill little pansies and incompetent parents all at once.

-Stop assuming that normal people- even normal young minors- take all their perceptions of reality from a fucking game about daemons, gods, space elves, space orks, and over-masculine warrior monks using impossible technology.  I just can't fathom this- why are these 'intelligent' (so they claim) people so convinced that everyone is just going to have life imitate art?  We got through this horse-shit in the 80's with D&D, in the 90's with Doom and Mortal Kombat, why do they keep at this shit?

Oh for fucks sake.

No mercy on these "Geek Dad" church ladies. Victory to the boobie monsters!

Quote from: Crüesader;917207[ATTACH=CONFIG]347[/ATTACH]

I didn't know Jared Fogle was into miniatures.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;917934I didn't know Jared Fogle was into miniatures.

Well, he did have a fondness for 'small'...

Quote from: Crüesader;917207http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/06/on-maturity-40k-and-slaanesh.html

And it all starts with the author discussing some shit-tier anime he watched when he was young.  Of course, when someone says 'shit-tier' anime, to me that's like saying 'caffeinated coffee' because the only other kind is some kind of oddity.  But then we get to the selling point of every moral authoritarian argument, ever:  

"But the children!"

Of course, if you stick with it he starts going into the DC/Vertigo 'Sandman' storyline, which is basically the hipster comic of the era.  Call me a bit too 'normal', but I tend to favor comics that are less about existential problems and more about some asshole unleashing some horrible shit and the good guys trying to un-fuck it the best they can without beating each other senseless in the process (sort of like the usual family vacation).

Of special note:   Neil Gaiman has defended artistic drawings of child pornography/pedophilia.  So, let's just put that on the table and remember this is the Swine we're talking about, they aren't known for being consistent.

But then he gets to the topic at hand.  I'll make 'quotes' for him.



Okay, so for those of us who don't think like an outrage fetishist ('think' is used loosely):  Slaanesh isn't necessarily the 'God of Pleasure'.  His followers may call him that, but we all know there's major religions (plural) that claim to be 'of peace' and yet have been at ground zero of more war and bloodshed than anything else.  Slaanesh is the god of excess- the Eldar created this thing because when they were king shit in the galaxy, they had nothing better to do than go to extremes when it came to sensory at the expense of others.   That meant they'd torture, rape, manipulate, pretty much every corrupt thing you can do without stepping into Khorne's turf and just outright killing a shitload of people.  

But here's another typical example of someone skewing the idea toward protecting transgendered people and sluts.  I'm not saying anything is wrong with either one of them, don't get me wrong:  I'll have you know that some of my best friends are transgendered and some of my even better ones are sluts.  The issue I'm taking is that the author is using a piece of fiction and pretending that it turns people into slut/tranny-haters.  I mean, for fuck's sake... about all Slaanesh has the capability to offer in the tabletop game is the Noise Marines and Daemonettes.  Even with the recent love GW's giving Chaos, it's all focused on Khorne and a bit of Tzeentch.  Slaanesh is much, much more appreciated in Dark Heresy.



You know, just a question here:  Is this what people are doing?  Are they 'exploring' drugs and sex through little plastic and resin miniatures?  Who is doing this, anywhere?  Another example of the outrage brigade pretending people are using their entertainment as therapy and education.



And here we go, the meat of the argument.  I'm going to clue you in on something- It's not my job, nor is it the job of Games Workshop or any other business to raise your fucking children.    If you're worried about what your kids are playing with, then stop blogging and raise your fucking kids.  And if it makes you feel better, I don't game with kids because people who buy Warhammer shit for their kids generally have spoiled little obnoxious brats.  There, I said it.  I don't care if that's offensive, stop worrying about my opinion of kids and worry about being a parent and you won't be as traumatized by plastic titties.



Pictured:  'Seductive'
[ATTACH=CONFIG]346[/ATTACH]

Apparently also 'transphobic', which I'm not seeing.  Why do all of these moral authoritarians think that the average person is mentally unhinged and incapable of distinguishing fantasy from reality?  I'm thinking they're mentally unhinged, and the old saying is that 'thieves judge by their own moral condition'.  News flash:  If people are taking their perceptions of reality and building their prejudices and morality on little plastic miniatures and roleplaying games, these people are not fucking relevant or sane.

Jesus, man.  It's the 1990's again, and I'm hearing that youth minister from church talking about how rock music is going to make me do drugs, get AIDS, and commit suicide.



Pictured:  Another nerdy white heterosexual beta telling me what's offensive to women and transpersonnel.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]347[/ATTACH]
Author's picture on BOLS reads as follows:  "Dad, Gamer, Publisher. All games all the time since junior-high. I should go outside more.." Yes, you fucking should.  Interact with some real people instead of what the internet tells you 'gamers' are like.



And here we go, this 'dad' is expecting a company to do his parenting for him and hide plastic titties from his children.  That's your job to be the parent.  Don't want your kids exposed to a part of the fiction/game?  Then be a fucking man, be a fucking dad, be a good gamer and PARENT your children instead of expecting a business and other people to do it for you.  

And as far as models being 'sexist'?  Well, hang on- didn't you just say that it was 'slut-shaming' to have an antiquated view of sex, and here you are- saying they're 'sexist' because these butterface claw-bitches are wearing bikinis?  Oh, Swine- if doublethink were an olympic sport you'd have more gold than the king of Mali.



A- Age of Sigmar has more hate than any GW product in the last 20 years.  They seriously designed this game to actually cater to non-competitive casuals and kids with more access to dad's wallet than the average putz.  No, really- the company had to be pestered to put in a point system because it was ridiculously out of balance and nothing could stop you from plopping down 20 OP models.  At least, that's how I hear it.

Pause for effect her:  Age of Sigmar was actually Games Workshop creating an entirely new product, new models, and it got more hate than when they actually REMOVED models and products.

B- It's not 'mature' if we're censoring it to make up for your shit-tier parenting.  You want your kids to be mature and enjoy Warhammer?  Be a fucking father, make them earn their money, and stop pretending everyone in the real world takes their perceptions from fiction and plastic soldiers.

C- Malal doesn't exist, it was a bad idea, stop bringing this stupid shit up.

Hey, anime is not shit-tier! Marvel and DC are! (at least in my opinion)

Otherwise, you're spot on.

Anyway, I'm gonna metaphorically piss on the SJW hipster scum by not hating myself for being a white male while drinking straight Jameson chased with Mountain Dew and watching Urotsukidoji while listening to The Stanley Brothers.

(I'm not making any of this up. I am going to spend my weekend this way. Aint nothing better than whiskey, hentai, bluegrass music, and not hating yourself just for being born)

Quote from: Doc Sammy;919352Hey, anime is not shit-tier! Marvel and DC are! (at least in my opinion)

Anime from the 90's was pretty great.  Anything that got over to the US during that time was pretty good quality.  I can honestly say I've never seen a DBZ fan that struck me as 'intelligent'.  And Marvel is shit-tier these days. DC can still crank out a pretty good story, though.

Quote from: Crüesader;919403Anime from the 90's was pretty great.  Anything that got over to the US during that time was pretty good quality.  I can honestly say I've never seen a DBZ fan that struck me as 'intelligent'.  And Marvel is shit-tier these days. DC can still crank out a pretty good story, though.

with newer anime i find all the best stuff iv seen in the last few years (even when compared with general tv here in the west) are budget titles and stuff you dont tend to hear about if you listen to whats big.
For example Emma a Victorian romance , aria the animation, and tears to tiara.

Quote from: Crüesader;917207Of special note:   Neil Gaiman has defended artistic drawings of child pornography/pedophilia.  So, let's just put that on the table and remember this is the Swine we're talking about, they aren't known for being consistent..

No, no he did not. He commented that some idiots can't tell the difference between "gothic lolita" artwork and depictions of acts of pedophilia. So are you just repeating some ill-informed online bullshit or are you one of those idiots?

You also are about a decade off on "hipsters", a term that wasn't in parlance in the 90s. Funny, generally only adolescents would make that mistake...

Quote from: TristramEvans;919974No, no he did not. He commented that some idiots can't tell the difference between "gothic lolita" artwork and depictions of acts of pedophilia. So are you just repeating some ill-informed online bullshit or are you one of those idiots?

I mean, generally they both attract the same kind of subhuman trash.  I can't tell much difference in the fans.  

And Neil Gaiman spoke in defense of this guy:  https://www.wired.com/2010/02/obscene-us-manga-collector-jailed-6-months/?+wired27b+%2528Blog+-+27B+Stroke+6+%2528Threat+Level%2529%2529

http://www.mtv.com/news/2593182/neil-gaiman-on-the-obscenity-of-manga-collector-christopher-handleys-trial/

So are you just not doing your research, or are you one of those pedophiles?

Quote from: TristramEvans;919974You also are about a decade off on "hipsters", a term that wasn't in parlance in the 90s. Funny, generally only adolescents would make that mistake...

So, 'hipster comic of its day' you seem to have misinterpreted.  That's okay, only an idiot would make that mistake.  Let me illustrate:  Steampunk is the 'hipster cosplay' of conventions.  Bard is the 'hipster class' of D&D.  Oasis was the 'hipster music' of the 90's.  


And the term 'hipster' has been around since the 1940's.


Lot of effort from the guy that was gloating about having me on 'ignore'.

Out of curiosity, how many of your miniatures are actually painted?