Is this a fun system? Does it work? Is it interesting? Or is it a bit pointless?
It's free. So...you could like...try it. Which would probably give you a better idea than asking about a game associated with Nixon on a forum that hates story-games.
I can't try it, that's why I'm asking.
What is TSOY? Please edit your first post so people have a clue what you're talking about?
The Shadow of Yesterday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_of_Yesterday).
QuoteThe Shadow of Yesterday (or TSoY) is a narrativist sword and sorcery (with optional elements of heroic fantasy) indie role-playing game, designed by Clinton R. Nixon and published by CRN Games.
I see "narrativist" and "indie," and I immediately suspect that this is a shitty game.
QuoteThe Shadow of Yesterday takes place on the world of Near, a post-apocalyptic fantasy world where civilization has been destroyed three hundred years ago and is presently undergoing a rebirth. Because of this, the races in TSOY (elves, goblins, and ratkin) are not seen as genetically separate races at all, but rather an evolution/devolution from humans, and each of them can inclusively become "human" if they give up what makes them different.
There are some notable differences between the settings as presented in the various releases. The Finnish version has greatly expanded the setting by adding minor cultures and other details to the existing background material, and also has a slightly different map than the original. The Spanish setting is faithful in regards to the text, but does have a completely different map. The German setting has some additions inspired by online discussions, but not to the extent of the Finnish version. The World of Near for Solar System is a separate 190-page treatment of the setting from the creator of the Finnish version. The Polish version combines original setting with rules modifications taken from The World of Near for Solar System and also incorporates original rules expansions and modifications; it also includes a map from Spanish edition.
The world of Near. How...desperate to be taken seriously. Some miscellaneous other quotes:
QuoteNo gods. No monsters. Just people.
Are you ready for truly human weird fantasy?
QuoteThe Shadow of Yesterday is pulpy romantic sword-and-sorcery at the end of one world and the beginning of the next. This game melds the best of standard fantasy role-playing and a hard-charging narrative engine. The revised version of this game, out now, focuses even more on mechanics that make your story zing off the table and into your imagination.
At this point I'm suspicious.
QuoteAs I play with a group of gamers with a good representation of both genders, and a fair amount of gay, lesbian, and transsexual players, it’s nice to actually hold up a game like TSOY whose sex politics are above the watermark for most RPG’s (which are sadly about on par with a viking attack). For all the progress that’s been made in liberalizing the world of RPG’s, most mainstream games are still sadly very white, very Eurocentric, and very heterosexual in their depiction of characters, and indeed the entire world. Your writeup for Oran is yet another example of TSOY’s attempt to address gender/sex politics in a way where “mature” doesn’t simply equal “explicit content,” like it does in a vast majority of the gaming world. Thank you for a game which is as thoughtful as it is exciting.
Welp.
Also, it appears that you get XP for doing things like "being in a scene with another character." This game is a turd.
Quote from: brettmb;532354What is TSOY? Please edit your first post so people have a clue what you're talking about?
The use of acronym is deliberate: if you aren't familiar with the game then you aren't going to be able to answer it.
Quote from: B.T.;532476This game is a turd.
Insightful.
Quote from: B.T.;532476I see "narrativist" and "indie," and I immediately suspect that this is a shitty game.
We're reviewing games based on the elevator pitch rather than actual play, now?
This will make being an uninformed, loud-mouthed simpleton on the internet easier than ever before! I'd join in but, well, you seem to have cornered the market for it on this site.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;532479The use of acronym is deliberate: if you aren't familiar with the game then you aren't going to be able to answer it.
And so the thread could be closed.
Quote from: brettmb;532490And so the thread could be closed.
To what end? The question is clearly directed at people who know the game.
By all means, chuck your toys out the pram. Behave just like the other site.
WTF? Can't you just edit the freaking post to include the name? You know, the first post in a thread is supposed to include all the details. Are you acting out like a little child?
Quote from: brettmb;532493WTF? Can't you just edit the freaking post to include the name? You know, the first post in a thread is supposed to include all the details. Are you acting out like a little child?
What is fucking wrong with you? I've already answered this question. The thread doesn't need editing. It isn't a thread for people to answer if they don't know the fucking game! How is that not clear to you? You want to troll, go somewhere else and do it.
TSOY has FGT and so many WOFA that it allows the ABNZ in the DLAFW, and with so much TES we can expect more SGOA in PDTU. It is much different than TCGDW, WDDF or SJGF and other TFCGS. LOL
Pools work. I like them much better than your regular attributes + skills combination. If you have one, why have the other? Pools work differently, so there is a reason to have them.
Refresh is a fun mechanism. Usually there is little point to include downtime. Now there is. It's not required to go over it in detail, but everyone will accept that people mention it, and sometimes you can expand on it.
If you all have gotten some tampons by now...
I have TSoY (bought a printed version, unaware of what I was doing I admit, but well - I liked InSpectres, and I thought hey, maybe those damn indies ain't too bad!)
First thing - the writing is beyond shoddy and terrible. It's uninformative, the informations about the mechanics are spread all over in chaos, and at least one quite core information to inform you how Pools Work, you will need to deduce it yourself (I still had not found it). And the printed version in Poland is the upgraded/errated version already. So...yeah.
The setting provided (at least in the printed version), is utter garbage of some mixed pseudocultural rip - offs. It just does not make much of sense, that setting. You have 5 completely random countries (Which pretty much represent Europe, Africa, China, Japan and I think Africa again/Australia) connected to each other. The greatest piece of irony's author's tutted "No Gods. No Monsters. Just Humans"...and then you have goblins, elves and primitive skavens.
The mechanics are, well - it's a Forge game, what'd you expect other then storygaming. The ability pools work, but they can be easily abused by a powergaming player, because the rules advice you to "provide means of refreshing them as soon as players desire to", which basically means that any form of resource management is thrown out of the window if you play by the rules. The Ability Pools themselves and how they work is not too bad - but you need to toss that "Do not change the rules OR ELSE" out of the window, and apply common sense to the idea of Downtime.
The skills as written are also an interesting take (especially on the idea of skills - by - culture - same that again, the provided setting's pages are only useful as bear stuffing), but it needs some logic and common sense applied, because otherwise, going by the rules themselves, a deadly duelist won't be able to do jack against a common soldier. And you know how Forge games are all about 'em sticking to the rules - le sigh. I doubt I will ever play the game - the mechanics aren't too clunky, but they need some clearing up, and I'd rather use DnD for most basic Sword & Sorcery (You go into towers/crypts, and you gain treasure or die), or BRP for more complicated S&S games.
What's a good idea to be stolen are the Keys, I believe they are called, but it will be a cold night in Hell before I shall call them such - term Personal Objectives is much better here. In TSoY it takes a form that you only gain XP for achieving/doing things important to your character and roleplaying of it (there's also a special bonus for forsaking such a thing, because you know, character - development - in - a - story - mechanic). With a more sane approach, that can be used in any RPG - just ask each player to write a few objectives for their characters, and reward them more XP/Experience Rolls/etc. etc. when they achieve their objectives.
So, all in all - you can steal some tidbits from TSoY, and if you get through it's bad writing, there may be even a pot at the end of that grey rainbow. The question is though - is it really worth it? If you like storygames with an RPG splat in them, you will like this one. If you don't, TSoY will most definitely not change your opinion about them.
It's fairly obvious (from his writing both in and out of the game) that humans == demihumans. George RR Martin wrote a decent essay about the subject, and how if your alien/fantasy races are used to explore human themes and issues, then they're not really alien or fantastical (and you may just want to use humans, then).
What Clinton means is there are no convenient soulless evil creatures that you can kill that will solve all of the world's problems, no BBE without some human motivation behind what he's doing. It helps focus the problems on personal and human ones, sorta like how in Vampire, your human memories make it more than just a game about predatorial and neo-feudal conflicts.
Powergaming isn't an issue unless you make it an issue, like any other game ever. Always best to play in the spirit of the rules/intent of the designer.
Also, where does it say not to change the rules in the book (I may have a different edition -- mine is the setting-neutral Solar System done by Eero Tuovinen)? Clinton spent most of his time at the Forge not involved in the theory debates and distancing himself from GNS. I know saying "the Forge this, the Forge that" is convenient, but the generalization is overused, and assuming any game designed by someone associated with it adheres to the same philosophies doesn't work. There is a lot those guys don't agree on.
I'm not a huge fan of Near, personally, but I'm not a big fan of pulp fantasy to begin with.
Ok, first of all, it is a policy in this forum that threads have to explain what they're about. Fail to, and you're acting against the functionality of this forum.
Second, this thread is in the wrong forum; it belongs in "Other games", as TSOY isn't an RPG; its a storygame.
Third, I suspect that the OP knows this, and that his intentional vagueness was an attempt to skirt around that.
Ghostwhistler, stop acting like a fucking dick. Don't do this again.
RPGPundit
Actually, I would classify it as an RPG. It's fairly traditional in mechanics.
That's a good short review Rincewind. Beside my sarcastic remark about the over use of acronyms, understanding proper semicolon use is another problem among game writers, there is good advice in Rincewind's brief review for making these type of games too. If the author reads this thread, don't take it so hard. There's good advice for the revision in Rincewind's comments.
Quote from: Kuroth;532685That's a good short review Rincewind. Beside my sarcastic remark about the over use of acronyms, understanding proper semicolon use is another problem among game writers, there is good advice in Rincewind's brief review for making these type of games too. If the author reads this thread, don't take it so hard. There's good advice for the revision in Rincewind's comments.
Thanks*, although it's more of an extended opinion ;).
*Or are you making fun of my own lack of proper use for semicolon and me repeating certain words too much in the text? The repetition of my humble nickname certainly bears such intent, or at least that's how I'd do it if I wanted to ridicule such a review :D.
Oh, I have see reviews of literary novels that have that level of slapping about the face and neck. ha The use of semicolons is one of those problems that one confronts a lot in small press games. Writers that don't quite understand how they should use them should rewrite without them. Better yet, take an editor's advice as sound. Almost every game could use a good editor. Page counts for games would go down and quality would go up immeasurably.
Quote from: Kuroth;532706Oh, I have see reviews of literary novels that have that level of slapping about the face and neck. ha The use of semicolons is one of those problems that one confronts a lot in small press games. Writers that don’t quite understand how they should use them should rewrite without them. Better yet, take an editor’s advice as sound. Almost every game could use a good editor. Page counts for games would go down and quality would go up immeasurably.
True, true.
What does "slapping about the face and neck" idiom means, though? Never have I encountered one before, I admit.
As for the acronym madness, I admit I had not encountered that. Perhaps it was cleared up in Polish version.
Quote from: Rincewind1;532708True, true.
What does "slapping about the face and neck" idiom means, though? Never have I encountered one before, I admit.
As for the acronym madness, I admit I had not encountered that. Perhaps it was cleared up in Polish version.
Is that an American one? Must be. You know, getting roughed up to make the point.
The acronym abuse was more directed at Ghost Whistler. He has heard enough about it I'm sure. I like Rifts, but the acronym use in it is bad. One of the editing failures of Dangerous Journeys was how it became almost incomprehensible by the use of acronyms for everything. These are just a couple examples. Even usage that seems small, like THACO, is very poor in implementation.
Idiom usage is another problem one sees all the time in games too, of course. On the most basic level, I read a game recently that was completely infested with one independent clause after another without punctuation or using improper punctuation (see semicolons). The errors were of the most elementary school level. It was sad too, since the mechanics of the game were very sound.
Quote from: RPGPundit;532647Ok, first of all, it is a policy in this forum that threads have to explain what they're about. Fail to, and you're acting against the functionality of this forum.
Second, this thread is in the wrong forum; it belongs in "Other games", as TSOY isn't an RPG; its a storygame.
Third, I suspect that the OP knows this, and that his intentional vagueness was an attempt to skirt around that.
Ghostwhistler, stop acting like a fucking dick. Don't do this again.
RPGPundit
Ridiculous. This is an rpg, irrespective of your feelings about it may be. How on earth am I meant to know what games you consider to be 'story games' and whether or not they are 'roleplaying games'? You moan about rpg.net behaving in such a divisive way and yet do exactly the same thing: you criticise them for creating a second forum solely for DnD/D20 and yet you expect people to be able to read your mind and know what you YOU alone consider to be a story game and post in the 'correct' forum, even though you can't define your terms so people even know what you mean.
There was nothing vague about the question at all: I wanted to know what people's experience of the ability pool mechanics were. How on earth is that not clear? How is that less clear than "D&D Next" or "So, Shadowrun?", or any number of threads seen in the rpg forum? You want people to agree to your definition of roleplaying games? Then define your terms - starting with an explanation of why this game (which I have never played, hence the question) isn't an rpg, as opposed to this nebulous and terrible thing called a 'story game'.
I'm not responsible for the content of trolls who don't understand the acronym (and therefore can't even answer the question anyway) or trolls who just want to chime and go 'it's a turd'. This crusade against a category of roleplaying game, which this most assuredly is, is absurd self defeating and unhelpful. I don't understand how on earth you can consider this a story game at all; there is nothing 'story game' about it other than you not liking the people tha twrote it.
I wasn't asking for reviews of the game.
And finally, I actually did edit the thread title so don't fucking blame me if your forum won't let an edit through.
You've had plenty of time to read it by now. What do you think of it Ghost Whistler?
It seems you haven't. Here is a link to help you.
This wiki is the authoritative source for the game The Shadow of Yesterday. (http://tsoy.crngames.com/index.php?title=Main_Page)
Quote from: RPGPundit;532647Ok, first of all, it is a policy in this forum that threads have to explain what they're about. Fail to, and you're acting against the functionality of this forum.
It was quite functional. The game was mentioned in the title. The question was concise. That some people do not know what TSoY refers to, well, that's probably their problem.
QuoteSecond, this thread is in the wrong forum; it belongs in "Other games", as TSOY isn't an RPG; its a storygame.
Says who?
There is a GM, there are dice, there is a combat system, characters get better over time, it's a fantasy setting.
Quote from: Kuroth;532798You’ve had plenty of time to read it by now. What do you think of it Ghost Whistler?
You've not read the original post have you.
QuoteIt seems you haven't. Here is a link to help you.
This wiki is the authoritative source for the game The Shadow of Yesterday.
Wonderful. How does that answer the question?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;532281Is this a fun system? Does it work? Is it interesting? Or is it a bit pointless?
These questions have been answered. Rincewind, Peregin, 1of3 and I have given you a fair amount of input. I want to hear what you think.
Quote from: Kuroth;532798You've had plenty of time to read it by now. What do you think of it Ghost Whistler?
It's threads like those that make you smile and say "I love to help people!", don't they?
Quote from: Rincewind1;532820It's threads like those that make you smile and say "I love to help people!", don't they?
those...what?
threads like what?
Personally, like a lot of "Storygames", TSoY walks the line, it's an RPG with very strong metagame elements there for the purpose of furthering a story by giving players Narrative control, ie. a Narrative RPG, which while may include several trappings of a traditional RPG is not a traditional RPG.
Based on Pundit's strict definition of RPGs, namely a game with a primary focus of roleplay through world emulation and character immersion, TSoY belongs in Other Games.
Quote from: Kuroth;532807These questions have been answered. Rincewind, Peregin, 1of3 and I have given you a fair amount of input. I want to hear what you think.
about what?
Quote from: CRKrueger;532825Personally, like a lot of "Storygames", TSoY walks the line, it's an RPG with very strong metagame elements there for the purpose of furthering a story by giving players Narrative control, ie. a Narrative RPG, which while may include several trappings of a traditional RPG is not a traditional RPG.
Based on Pundit's strict definition of RPGs, namely a game with a primary focus of roleplay through world emulation and character immersion, TSoY belongs in Other Games.
But there is no strict definition. That's the problem. Aside from the inanity of making us post in another forum (apparently in the name of clarity), the only standard that can be applied is that dictated by his own fancy. How on earth am I meant to know whether this game is a 'story game' or an rpg according to what he decides if he doesn't explain? I'm not a mind reader. Every rpg is a narrative game: players use words to create a communal scene at any given time. That's the whole point of the board being the players' imaginations. Really this is just beyond petulant.
And this thread was never about reviewing the game nor people's opinions on it as a whole.
Quote from: Rincewind1;532615The ability pools work, but they can be easily abused by a powergaming player, because the rules advice you to "provide means of refreshing them as soon as players desire to", which basically means that any form of resource management is thrown out of the window if you play by the rules. The Ability Pools themselves and how they work is not too bad - but you need to toss that "Do not change the rules OR ELSE" out of the window, and apply common sense to the idea of Downtime.
The skills as written are also an interesting take (especially on the idea of skills - by - culture - same that again, the provided setting's pages are only useful as bear stuffing), but it needs some logic and common sense applied, because otherwise, going by the rules themselves, a deadly duelist won't be able to do jack against a common soldier.
Quote from: PeregrinPowergaming isn't an issue unless you make it an issue, like any other game ever. Always best to play in the spirit of the rules/intent of the designer.
There. What you asked for so nicely. And since you behaved like such an adult and a man worthy of help, I even bolded the necessary parts.
And now I'm off to get a drink. Stop being a dolt, GW, and instead, read the fucking help given to you, rather then complain "WAAAAAAH REVIEWS HOW DARE THEY!!!!1". I didn't plan a bloody review, it just happened on it's own.
Quote from: Rincewind1;532871There. What you asked for so nicely. And since you behaved like such an adult and a man worthy of help, I even bolded the necessary parts.
And now I'm off to get a drink. Stop being a dolt, GW, and instead, read the fucking help given to you, rather then complain "WAAAAAAH REVIEWS HOW DARE THEY!!!!1". I didn't plan a bloody review, it just happened on it's own.
Extraordinary. Just...extraordinary.
Feel free to come back when you've cleared the sand out your vagina.
A simple "thank you" would had sufficed.
Quote from: CRKrueger;532825Based on Pundit's strict definition of RPGs, namely a game with a primary focus of roleplay through world emulation and character immersion, TSoY belongs in Other Games.
How on earth does this game not have world emulation and character immersion? Do you really think it's creators would say it doesn't?
This thread has gone through the looking glass and right up the anus of weird.
Quote from: Rincewind1;532876A simple "thank you" would had sufficed.
YOur attitude is unbelievable. You demand gratitude while simultaneously insulting me. You act as if your opinion is the only and true answer to the question I asked, while simultaneously criticising the tone of the question.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;532883YOur attitude is unbelievable. You demand gratitude while simultaneously insulting me. You act as if your opinion is the only and true answer to the question I asked, while simultaneously criticising the tone of the question.
Physician, heal thyself.
Quote from: Ghost WhistlerLast edited by Ghost Whistler; Yesterday at 02:06 PM. Reason: i'm supposed to accomodate people that can't answer the question anyway
Quote from: Ghost WhistlerTo what end? The question is clearly directed at people who know the game.
By all means, chuck your toys out the pram. Behave just like the other site.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler (being oh so smart)The use of acronym is deliberate: if you aren't familiar with the game then you aren't going to be able to answer it.
Quote from: Ghost WhistlerWhat is fucking wrong with you? I've already answered this question. The thread doesn't need editing. It isn't a thread for people to answer if they don't know the fucking game! How is that not clear to you? You want to troll, go somewhere else and do it.
Quote from: Ghost WhistlerYou've not read the original post have you.
Wonderful. How does that answer the question?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;532874Extraordinary. Just...extraordinary.
Feel free to come back when you've cleared the sand out your vagina.
Don't be shocked when next time people will not lift a finger to help you.
I think you need to look up the word 'context'.
Threads are a bit like programming computers. You only get out what you put in.
QuoteIs this a fun system? Does it work? Is it interesting? Or is it a bit pointless?
I´ve run TSOY a couple of times. If your questions are only if the ability pools work...
Yes, they do, but I wouldn´t say they are by themselves better than other systems. They become awesome when you connect ability pools with secrets (pay to activate or use your powers), or the pool refreshing mechanics, which are really good for roleplaying, revealing things about your characters, etc.
So I´d say that, by themselves, they aren´t better or worse.
Can they be abused? I guess they can. In TSOY in particular, a powergamer won´t get a lot of advantage, since (unless secrets involved) you can only spend 1 point per roll.
Speaking of refreshment scenes, they are really good, but if you want to stimulate the pool management and buying pool points with advancements, I´d be rather strict with refreshment scenes: only allow them when it makes sense in the session or lets us know something valuable abouth the character/s involved.
I´ll talk a little about Lady Blackbird, a game heavily influenced by TSoY. It has only one general pool, the same for every PC, and it has also refreshment scenes to set it back to 7 pts. When I ran it, I set a limit to those scenes: only one per session, unless it really makes sense, and it worked fine.
In LB, though, the pools have a lot of power (you can spend as many p. points on a roll as you wish), so perhaps it was more necessary to set a limit.
hmmm, half the thread´s filled up with insults and posts by people who don´t know much about the game, and arguments not very related to the topic. I guess there are better forums to have a good and adult discussion.
Quote from: One Horse Town;532920Threads are a bit like programming computers.
I see what you did there.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;532828But there is no strict definition. That's the problem. Aside from the inanity of making us post in another forum (apparently in the name of clarity), the only standard that can be applied is that dictated by his own fancy. How on earth am I meant to know whether this game is a 'story game' or an rpg according to what he decides if he doesn't explain? I'm not a mind reader. Every rpg is a narrative game: players use words to create a communal scene at any given time. That's the whole point of the board being the players' imaginations. Really this is just beyond petulant.
And this thread was never about reviewing the game nor people's opinions on it as a whole.
C'mon, anyone who's seen Pundit toss a game in Other Games before saw this coming a mile away. Not sure how you can be surprised every single time it happens, like you were with Hot War - oh, that's right, you're not surprised. You know exactly what Pundit's definition is - you just don't agree with it. :D
Clinton Nixon, the author of The Shadow of Yesterday, did suggest the term "story game" which was later adopted by the site story-games.com. But in his usage, story games were not a subset of RPGs or a category of funky RPG-like games -- he was using it to describe a superset of games, a broad umbrella that includes all RPGs, from D&D to Donjon, as well as games such as Universalis that are arguably RPGs and games such as Atlas Game's Once Upon a Time that no one would call an RPG.
But he was using a very broad definition of story: "A story is a linked series of events which contains one or more conflicts." This would cover what goes on in Forward... to Adventure! as much as within his own games. As someone who likes many different kinds of RPGs, many different kinds of games, he was trying to get past all the ghettoization of games and arguing about what is what.
Quote from: Yasha;533537Clinton Nixon, the author of The Shadow of Yesterday, did suggest the term "story game" which was later adopted by the site story-games.com. But in his usage, story games were not a subset of RPGs or a category of funky RPG-like games -- he was using it to describe a superset of games, a broad umbrella that includes all RPGs, from D&D to Donjon, as well as games such as Universalis that are arguably RPGs and games such as Atlas Game's Once Upon a Time that no one would call an RPG.
But he was using a very broad definition of story: "A story is a linked series of events which contains one or more conflicts." This would cover what goes on in Forward... to Adventure! as much as within his own games. As someone who likes many different kinds of RPGs, many different kinds of games, he was trying to get past all the ghettoization of games and arguing about what is what.
That´s true, but in this tiny parallel universe, TSoY can´t be in the same subforum than D&D.