Tenra Bansho Zero - Second Act

Future Villain Band · December 07, 2012, 04:34:39 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger;606722Says the guy who hasn't been and won't be banned unless he practically begs for it.

Again, if you want to talk to me about the game, talk to me about the game. I'm not going to comment on site policy.

QuoteThis isn't flaccid purple dude. Walking away because you can't stand up, doesn't count as a valid argument tactic here, neither does crying.

My comments pretty much stand on their own, and I stand by them. (This is posted before I saw Pundit's post.)

Ghost Whistler · December 07, 2012, 04:39:32 PM

Quote from: Lynn;606665Very interesting! My Japanese just isn't up to reading the original.

I lived in Japan for some time and get back now and then, but the only time I gamed there was with fellow ex-pats.

What I find curious is how the game dynamic is influenced by Japanese culture (meaning normal, everyday small group dynamics - not the setting or formula elements).

that's because it's a japanese game.

it's not like Steve Jackson's In Nomine.

Skywalker · December 07, 2012, 04:52:46 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;606724First, in WFRP you eventually run out of Fate points.

Again, you try and make a distinction based on something other than the nature of the rule itself and fail by doing so.

Quote from: RPGPundit;606724Second, having not yet read the text, and relying on secondhand confirmation about what is or is not in the rules, it would be pretty simple to convince me otherwise. Show me that the rule as stated is not in fact the rule as written.

No one denies the rule exists in TBZ. The only thing in question is why you use this single rule to catergorise a whole RPG, when rules of a like nature do not cause a similar reaction from you elsewhere as shown on this very thread. You are now trying to shift responsibility to another poster in a weak attempt to look impartial, but this does not hide that your decision is clearly just motivated your own personal bias and arises from your failure to argue the point.

crkrueger · December 07, 2012, 04:58:26 PM

Quote from: Skywalker;606742No one denies the rule exists in TBZ. The only thing in question is why you use this single rule to catergorise a whole RPG, when rules of a like nature do not cause a similar reaction from you elsewhere as shown on this very thread. You are now trying to shift responsibility to another poster in a weak attempt to look impartial, but this does not hide that your decision is clearly just motivated your own personal bias and arises from your failure to argue the point.

and you're trying to draw a false equivalency between an expendable very low resource and an absolute constant rule, or being able to speak first vs. never being killed.

I'm all for admitting it's a question of degree, not of kind, when we're talking about the definition of the mechanic itself, but it's a big fucking degree that dramatically changes the entire foundation of the game.

I know being a guy who likes narrative mechanics you got a lot riding on dismissing Pundit as a crank, etc., but going to the mattresses and tossing out logic isn't doing you any favors.

RPGPundit · December 07, 2012, 05:18:10 PM

Quote from: Skywalker;606742No one denies the rule exists in TBZ. The only thing in question is why you use this single rule to catergorise a whole RPG, when rules of a like nature do not cause a similar reaction from you elsewhere as shown on this very thread. You are now trying to shift responsibility to another poster in a weak attempt to look impartial, but this does not hide that your decision is clearly just motivated your own personal bias and arises from your failure to argue the point.

Its not a single rule, though. Its a number of things talked about the system that add up to make it clear that the system is not a regular RPG, with the particular rule forbidding nonconsensual PC death being the nail in the coffin, coupled with the obvious eagerness of the Story Swine crowd to embrace this game and promote it because of those various mechanics.

RPGPundit

Lynn · December 07, 2012, 05:38:23 PM

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;606733that's because it's a japanese game.

it's not like Steve Jackson's In Nomine.

Yes, that's clear. My point being how deeply the rules themselves are influenced by assumptions of small group interaction within Japanese society, not the cultural elements of the setting.

Skywalker · December 07, 2012, 06:24:04 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;606755Its not a single rule, though. Its a number of things talked about the system that add up to make it clear that the system is not a regular RPG, with the particular rule forbidding nonconsensual PC death being the nail in the coffin, coupled with the obvious eagerness of the Story Swine crowd to embrace this game and promote it because of those various mechanics.

Yeah, I get it. It's your forum. You get to say what goes where and do shit, without rhyme or reason.

Skywalker · December 07, 2012, 06:29:20 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger;606746I'm all for admitting it's a question of degree, not of kind, when we're talking about the definition of the mechanic itself, but it's a big fucking degree that dramatically changes the entire foundation of the game.

You have a point and I would happy to discuss the question of degree for these rules. Ultimately, I think that discussion over all the rules in an RPG is an essential part of characterising an RPG. However, the counter arguments so far have exclusively been on the basis that these rules are fundamentally different in nature, mostly from a fear that these matters are not as black and white as some people would like.

jhkim · December 07, 2012, 06:37:47 PM

Quote from: Future Villain Band;606657At least Edwards didn't play petty-ass Junior High games with moving threads around when he was losing an argument.

From my experience of both as moderators, Edwards was far more dictatorial in moving and closing threads that he didn't like. He was less rude about it than Pundit is, but he would regularly close threads based on what he thought of the conversation's direction.

I have a few beefs about moderation here - particularly in the last year or so, but overall I think it is still much more open in discussion than The Forge was. I disagree with and sometimes insult Pundit regularly, but still do well here.

I don't know anything particularly about Tenra Bansho so I don't have much to say about the main topic.

Gabriel2 · December 07, 2012, 06:55:37 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;606755Its not a single rule, though. Its a number of things talked about the system that add up to make it clear that the system is not a regular RPG, with the particular rule forbidding nonconsensual PC death being the nail in the coffin, coupled with the obvious eagerness of the Story Swine crowd to embrace this game and promote it because of those various mechanics.

RPGPundit

Seriously dude, you're pulling that crap out of your ass.

One Horse Town · December 07, 2012, 07:09:07 PM

Quote from: Future Villain Band;606715At this point, I take One Horse Town's admonition to talk about the game in response to my complaint about the move as an admonition to shut up about it. It's your site, do what you want.

Again, the message I got was received loud and clear. You guys run your site and move your threads the way you want. I'm enjoying posting here, so I'm not going to say "boo" lest I get banned.

Grow up.

Justin Alexander · December 07, 2012, 07:12:24 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;606755Its not a single rule, though. Its a number of things talked about the system that add up to make it clear that the system is not a regular RPG, with the particular rule forbidding nonconsensual PC death being the nail in the coffin, coupled with the obvious eagerness of the Story Swine crowd to embrace this game and promote it because of those various mechanics.

This is what your crusade has been reduced to? Claiming that a game with one non-simulationist mechanic is communist because it associates with communists?

You should be embarrassed by the level of stupidity you're demonstrating here.

Speaking as someone who thinks that there is a really meaningful and important line that should be drawn between RPGs and STGs, I find your McCarthy-esque crusade disgusting and abhorrent. It's not useful. When people see idiocy like yours, all it does it convince them that there's no validity to the position which you've made a mockery of.

Dirk Remmecke · December 07, 2012, 08:54:40 PM

Quote from: Justin Alexander;606797all it does it convince them that there's no validity to the position which you've made a mockery of.

This.

I am sad that this discussion (that I have not been a part of) was banished to the "outcast" forum.
Granted, the signal to noise ratio in this thread was quite low but there was a real discussion going on beneath all that bickering.

I had begun a lengthy answer before the move but I won't finish it as I got the feeling that earnest discussion of the borderline cases between RPG and SG is not welcome.

vytzka · December 08, 2012, 03:30:52 AM

Quote from: Future Villain Band;606657At least Edwards didn't play petty-ass Junior High games with moving threads around when he was losing an argument.

Quote from: One Horse Town;606661Tenra roulette.

In each scene/encounter/whatever you play at least one person has to have death on the table.

This is very interesting. Something that could work very well for adaptations of the rules to some settings.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;606699But I remember Andy saying, early in his work, that he wasn't just translating TBZ--he was also developing it and removing some "simulationist baggage". What and where that was, I have no idea.

Maybe my memory isn't quite right, but I wouldn't take Skywalker's word for it, either.

There was a bit of errata added during translation. For example, Kongohki (robots/animated armor suits with human souls inside) Overdrive was originally measured in rounds per day which was both inconvenient and impossible to balance. Now it's rounds per session. So you might be thinking about that sort of thing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;606704I welcome you to keep gaming on, whatever kind of gaming you like. But as for subverting my hobby, I'll keep right on making sure to expose that subversion to try to stop you in your tracks.

Ahaha, you're actually serious here? :banghead:

Quote from: RPGPundit;606755Its not a single rule, though. Its a number of things talked about the system that add up to make it clear that the system is not a regular RPG, with the particular rule forbidding nonconsensual PC death being the nail in the coffin, coupled with the obvious eagerness of the Story Swine crowd to embrace this game and promote it because of those various mechanics.

You have pretty much decided here that it's a storygame because it's translated, not even written but fucking translated, by Kitkowski and supported by other people you don't like. Pretending it's about dead boxes is red herring.

Imperator · December 08, 2012, 06:31:48 AM

Apart from the discussion about the game, I would like to make a point:

Guys, Pundit's ridiculous strategy of moving threads around is useless. If you use the New Posts button, it shows you every new post and thread regardless the ubication, so those threads don't need to go unnoticed. Seriously, complaining about that is a fucking waste of time. So he doesn't like threads about some games on certain subforums. More power to him. Arguing about that is legitimizing his dick move.