Quote from: RPGPundit;606624No, its suffering an attempted hijacking from a group of people translating a 15 year old japanese game to try to use it as ideological fodder in their efforts.

RPGPundit

A group of one person.
A game that's 15 years old from a completely different culture to the culture that creates the things you hate.
What efforts.
What.
The.
Fuck.

Quote from: vytzka;606525This is deeply stupid. There is no law of physics preventing someone from pulling a trigger before someone else finishes talking. It would just make for shitty story if they did. You're working awfully hard to get your double standard on.

But there may be a law (of genre emulation) that allows it. The Doctor always seems to be able to spout off some nonsense and still pull off whatever he's trying to pull off.

I don't know where this started, but I recall when I first got into Champions that it was the first in which you could make soliloquies without taking any time.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;606554They weren't going to do that anyway, because it's boring as fuck.  If a GM put three bullets into a captured guy's head rather than something interesting, we'd throw him the hell out unless we're playing something grim & gritty.

So right here you're saying that you don't care whether or not the gangsters would actually kill you, you care whether it makes for an interesting narrative.  You only allow it if the literary framework you are accepting is gritty, like we're playing "Tarantino Stories" where anyone can die as a convention of the genre.

You're an intelligent guy.  Forget terminology and sides for a minute.  Surely you're not going to tell me with a straight face, honestly, that there is not a fundamental difference between what you are describing and someone playing a game where the bad guys can simply kill you and toss you in a ditch (regardless of how boring), because that's what they would really do.

There is a difference and everyone here damn well knows it.  All we're arguing about is what name you put to it.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;606627If my end goal was a cool narrative, to experience a grand adventure

"cool narrative" and "EXPERIENCE a grand adventure" are two different things.

Its like the difference between saying your end goal is to tell a great story about fishing, or to have the EXPERIENCE of a great fishing trip.

The latter will probably end up with some great and real fishing stories as an incidental byproduct of what actually mattered (ie. going fishing); the former is just storytelling.

Now, what storygamers say is "but our games are MADE to tell a story so that you have a better experience of a story and the stories created are better crafted, which is what all gamers actually want even if they didn't realize it all these years because they were probably brain damaged".
Only that's NOT the point. That's NOT what gamers actually want; not if the cost of "making a better story" is that you don't actually EXPERIENCE the adventure. You can't actually become IMMERSED, feel a real character in a real world, if at the same time you're being all postmodernist and knowing that you're just telling a story; and what we're saying is that your method might create better fishing stories but its pointless if they're actually lies. Its no substitute for the real experience.

RPGPundit

Quote from: vytzka;606607Actually no, you're not gonna like this. Finishing Blow (Coup de Grace to people who are out of Vitality) cannot be delivered to player characters if they haven't checked the Dead box.

Was that part of the original Japanese game, or is that something relatively recent?

Quote from: Lynn;606640Was that part of the original Japanese game, or is that something relatively recent?

Original game. The translation did not alter the existing mechanics of TBZ.

Quote from: Skywalker;606619I am a fan of rules that embed the rules of the fictional world the game is set in when playing my PC, even if they are narrative as termed by CRKrueger.

Here, unfortunately, is where you guys always start getting slimey and weaselly when challenged, and the agenda of defending what you like becomes apparent(which is ironic considering your main argument is usually "there is no difference, you just don't like it").

Nice try on the "rules of the fictional world" thing, but we all know that "rules of the fictional world" like magic exists, gods answer prayers, and faeries wear boots is not the same as "I can't be killed if I don't want to because the main characters in anime are almost never killed".

Literary Genre emulation is not world verisimilitude emulation, and you damn well know it's not.

Quote from: CRKrueger;606636There is a difference and everyone here damn well knows it.  All we're arguing about is what name you put to it.

I don't have an issue with this, whatever you call it. But equally, the action order mechanics in Dr Who have the same effect in using the genre conventions of Dr Who to stop bad guys from shooting if you decide to talk, even if they would look to shoot as quickly as possible.

Quote from: Skywalker;606647I don't have an issue with this, whatever you call it. But equally, the action order mechanics in Dr Who have the same effect in using the genre conventions of Dr Who to stop bad guys from shooting if you decide to talk, even if they would look to shoot as quickly as possible.

Don't have it, so can't comment, but it sounds like you're right, yeah.  If there's no way ever that someone can shoot a normal human without him saying something then yeah, that's the same thing.  It's not a question of kind in that sense, but of degree.

It's literary genre emulation, not world emulation, without a doubt.

Quote from: RPGPundit;606624Right, so its a Storygame.

You know what? Fuck you, fuck your ridiculous crusade and fuck your intellectual dishonesty. I'll be gaming on, motherfucker, and subverting your precious hobby with time paradox Ron Edwards-infested Japanese role playing games. And you can do jack and shit about it except whine on your blog.

Quote from: CRKrueger;606645Literary Genre emulation is not world verisimilitude emulation, and you damn well know it's not.

I agree that the Death Box is a narrative mechanic (or whatever you want to call it). But if it is so, then the Action Order mechanic is the same.

Further, neither of these make the RPG which they are in a story game, as they are a singular rule that mechanical establishes a genre convention and do not see the player become a co-author in a story in any significant way.

Quote from: CRKrueger;606649It's literary genre emulation, not world emulation, without a doubt.

Cool. The reason this discussion was raised is that people were using the Death Box as justification for TBZ being a story game, whilst the Dr Who action order is not because it's genre emulation and matches some kind of in-built physics of the world based on that genre. My only point is that the two can't be distinguished.

Quote from: Skywalker;606652I agree that the Death Box is a narrative mechanic (or whatever you want to call it). But if it is so, then the Action Order mechanic is the same.

Further, neither of these make the RPG which they are in a story game, as they are a singular rule that mechanical establishes a genre convention and do not see the player become a co-author in a story in any significant way.

Actually, I would argue both of them allow the player to break the rules of the world in order to further a player's agenda.  Dr. Who lets a player always get off his sentence (like reveal the bad guy's plan) before the bad guy can silence him, and TBZ gives the character player-driven immunity.

If those aren't player-decided, world-editing means of influencing the narrative, then nothing is.

However, one narrative mechanic does not a storygame make, like I said at the top, with WFRP1(Fate Points are also a world-editing mechanic, btw).

Quote from: CRKrueger;606636So right here you're saying that you don't care whether or not the gangsters would actually kill you, you care whether it makes for an interesting narrative.  You only allow it if the literary framework you are accepting is gritty, like we're playing "Tarantino Stories" where anyone can die as a convention of the genre.

No, I'm saying that if the GM shoots my guy in the head while I'm being held prisoner, it's a dick move.  If it's a character I've invested more than a couple of months in, it's also gonna be an argument.  

QuoteYou're an intelligent guy.  Forget terminology and sides for a minute.  Surely you're not going to tell me with a straight face, honestly, that there is not a fundamental difference between what you are describing and someone playing a game where the bad guys can simply kill you and toss you in a ditch (regardless of how boring), because that's what they would really do.

There is a difference and everyone here damn well knows it.  All we're arguing about is what name you put to it.

Villains do all sorts of shit that's not realistic and pragmatic because it's the game you're playing.  I don't know why this is novel.  It makes more sense for Dr. Destroyer with his high IQ to become an investment banker and build a workable Ponzi scheme then fire a laser through Detroit -- heck, while we're at it, why Detroit? -- but he does that shit because he's a supervillain, and it's a comic-book RPG.  When I'm captured by mobsters, sure, they can shoot me in the head, but it's my PC -- I'm going to be pissed if the GM does it, especially if we're not playing in a genre where that's appropriate.

You guys are like, "The bad guys should be able to shoot your TBZ character in the face and then fuck his corpse's head like he's in HALO deathmatch," but even when I'm playing a mainstream RPG, that doesn't happen.  Why not?  Because it's a bit stupid.  TBZ simply admits that it's stupid, and formalizes how you signal you're willing to have your character die in a Big Cool Battle.  

People have been doing this for years and years.  It's not "storygaming," because it predates the shit out of storygaming.  It's just how some people play their RPGs.  

And seriously, even Ron Edwards was clever enough to address the fact that immersion isn't the only viable goal in playing RPGs, and everybody from Robin Laws on up have agreed.  If the definition here is that immersion is the end all and be all, then you guys have become as myopic as the Forge was.

Quote from: vytzka;606650You know what? Fuck you, fuck your ridiculous crusade and fuck your intellectual dishonesty. I'll be gaming on, motherfucker, and subverting your precious hobby with time paradox Ron Edwards-infested Japanese role playing games. And you can do jack and shit about it except whine on your blog.

At least Edwards didn't play petty-ass Junior High games with moving threads around when he was losing an argument.