TheRPGSite

So, I figured that everyone who may be interested- or have a friend that is interested- might benefit from some advice.  I'll add to this as I go, maybe some editing as well.  Feel free to ask questions, too- I'll gladly do a Q&A with this as well.  So for anyone who's interested in playing Warhammer 40k, I felt need to do this.

Update 5 September 2016:

So, if you want to know where to start there's a couple of things I should mention:

- The Horus Heresy-era armies are expensive as fuck.  Because you're rolling out twice as many Space Marines, and during this era Space Marines used a LOT of goodies that can't be replicated in the modern 41st M.  Seriously, though- fucking Volkite guns are insanely cool 'meat meltas'.  But this game is more of a 'high point, high dollar' game with the rules not being entirely accessible.  If you've got a 'First Founding' Space Marine or Adeptus Mechanicus army already, this is something to strive for.  However, good luck finding someone who plays it.

-Warhammer 40k standalone board games (Lost Patrol, Deathwatch: Overkill, Assassinorum: Execution Force, Betrayal at Calth, etc.) are fun for a few games, and they give some pretty good (sometimes unique) models to paint.  However, they're only good for a few playthroughs.  There's not much of an RPG element to them, but they're still kind of cool for something different to do.  Some folks have found a way to manipulate the rules for these games to include other factions and have mix-matched them together (Like Deathwatch and Lost Patrol).  Until we get a proper Space Hulk game, this is what we got.  

- Models are not priced according to their effectiveness/point value for the most part.  I know, they used to say they were.  But they're not.  So if you get an Imperial Guard army you're probably going to go broke before you reach a competitive level.  Double that if you're not interested in playing 'normal looking Guard' and want something like Death Korps.  Models like Catachans and stuff are still available, but you have to buy them in smaller boxes (making them more expensive, because bigger packs tend to be a better bargain). No matter what- the more models you have, the more expensive it will be.  That makes Space Marines of any sort one of the easiest armies to start playing (and why so much is tailored to them).

Because there are a lot of 40k 'fans' out there that have never even assembled a model or cracked a rulebook. It is important to know the difference between a 'player' and a 'fan'. So here are a few 'rules' to consider before you even get started or while you're new to the hobby.

Rule #1: Do not ever listen to anyone who does not play the tabletop game. 99% of anything they -think- they know about how the game works is complete fluff-based or video game bullshit, and not actual mechanics.  There's nothing wrong with enjoying things other than the tabletop game- but the lore, games, fiction, etc. does not accurately reflect the tabletop (for example, Space Marines are not invincible killing machines).

Rule #2: If someone 'helps' you- ask them which army they play, and why. If they can't clearly show you that they are experienced in the tabletop game, ignore them. There are even people who have armies, mostly painted, that never have played a single game.  Feel free to ask me- I'll never pretend to be an expert, but I've got experience.  Don't assume that everyone who has a Codex has experience with the game.

Rule #3: Start SMALL. I don't care if you've literally farted six million dollars out of your ass. Don't go into a store to do anything more than buy a small force, if you do it that way at all (you can sometimes find them cheaper on eBay). Get a very basic starter force to see what you like. They have 'start collecting' boxed sets that are a good bargain, too. Nothing sucks worse than throwing money at shit you do not need.  If you go to a store with money to spend, the people at that store will find a way to have you spend that money.

Rule #4: Do not let anyone choose your army for you. Do not let anyone tell you what you 'need' to play. It is your money, it is your hobby, it is what YOU want to do. Pick the one you like (even if 'looks cool' was what appeals to you) and start small. If you dislike the way it performs, you may be able to sell a small force and then try another one you like better. A good way to start is to go ask to 'try' an army at a Games Workshop store if they still do this.  If not, find someone who's willing to let you try their armies out.

Rule #5: If anyone ever tells you something about an army, CHECK. Research before you put any money on something based on some putz's 'theory' or 'rumor'. Even Bell of Lost Souls and other sites have featured outright bogus rumors. There are plenty of cases where people start rumors like points values going up, units being removed (one confirmed true, the Necron Pariah), new Codexes making X worthless, etc.- in one case I experienced a store owner was telling people that a certain army was going to be 'discontinued' so the new player would spend more money on something else. Just do your research and if you're worried about something 'coming', then just wait and see.

Rule #6: Research your books- See what edition the Codex is on and when an update is coming. If it has not been updated, hold off for a bit. If it has been updated, read into what has changed. Also, starting out you do not need the 'extra' books other than your Codex and the Rulebook, you do not need any books in hardcover format if softcover is available, and you damned sure don't need a 'how to paint' guide (especially when GW has videos for this exact shit, for FREE).  Most of the time, you can see what books you need for certain units- but later you can build your collection so you know other peoples' armies.

Rule #7: Play your army the way you want to, with the units you want (within the rules and agreeable guidelines). When you play someone, it has to be an agreeable match- some players may say, "Hey, I have nothing to counter flyers- you're gonna crush me with that"- well, you might wanna try to even it up. But be advised- if a player is trying to dictate your moves you should ignore them. If a player is trying to get you to ditch units for no legitimate reason and play without them, take your army and find someone else to play with. If a player is citing rules that always work to your disadvantage, ask to see where that rule is. YOU CAN ALWAYS WALK AWAY FROM A GAME. Remember- if you're not playing, neither is he.

Shit that stupid people say, and you should never listen to:

"Dark Angels are the best." - something you will never hear a tabletop player say. It's not that they suck, it's just that they really aren't 'awesome' in any way that makes them more or less a valid choice than any other Space Marines chapter. Oh, and they are very vulnerable from the air, tend to explode themselves with their plasma whoring, and lack some of the more effective units like Centurions.

"Ultramarines suck." -Actually, no. They don't. They're one of the most versatile and forgiving armies you can use. They have several formations and some pretty beast HQ's, and very few limitations outside of squad structures. Most people who say they 'suck' just get tired of seeing them, or they just hate Matt Ward.

"You need to get one of the competitive armies." No, you don't. You need to get an army that appeals to you. You can make most armies fairly effective and competitive. If you are not willing to spend money on making your army versatile, it will certainly be 'weak' in multiple ways. This means buying one boxed army set will not work, and many people are too lazy and cheap to do anything more so they start complaining that this army 'sucks'.

"The Imperial Guard is weak." If you use an all-infantry guard, yes. It will be weak. The Imperial Guard's strength is not in its infantry, for the most part- the troops are there to slow down your enemy. Your tanks, Shock Troopers, artillery, and aircraft are there to fuck shit up- and they do it quite well. Anyone who has ever played the Imperial Guard like this will tell you it's no joke at all- no one spends that much money on a 'weak' army.

"With Tau, you can just stand back and shoot and slaughter everything because their ranged game is win." They are nasty at a range, but very few armies foot-slog infantry across the battlefield to be shot up and a game of 40k is not 'kill all the enemy'. A lot of it is objective-based and holding ground. No matter what army you play, you WILL get into close combat. And if you're Tau, you'll lose and your guys will retreat. And if you keep with the 'stand back and shoot' game your entire army will be pushed off the battlefield and you will lose like the stupid weeb loser you are.

"Forge World isn't official." Yes, it is. Games Workshop OWNS Forge World. People who say this mostly are misinformed, trying to keep you from fielding something they can't counter, or they don't have the books from Forge World that cover that model and can't prepare for it in advance. If someone says this, inform them of the contrary and ask to see evidence supporting their claim. If they keep up the fight, move away. Private tournaments may exclude Forge World models if they desire (most credible ones don't).

Also if you and a friend are just getting started, the boxed sets are a great way to get two small armies on the very cheap (relatively speaking).

Buy armies at conventions, sometimes you can get ridiculously well painted armies for much less than the cost of the boxed minis.

My advice: Just don't do it. Or, if you absolutely must, wait until the inevitable crash, so they stop producing new editions every other year. Seriously, they haven't managed to produce a full line of codecii (codexes?), for a single edition since.. I dunno... third maybe? That was five teen years ago, give or take. They are on edition seven or eight now, I hear, and thats not counting apocalypse.  Hell, fifth edition managed to put out TWO core space marine codexes before they touched the Orks (I should point out I am not an Ork player, so this isn't a personal beef. In fact, i'm a damn Space Marine fan... so I'm the asshole stuck with having to rebuy my damn codex just in time for a new edition, with a god damn new fucking codex, before I even get around to making a new army list with the LAST god damn codex.... )

Also there is the small problem of moving to cheaper plastic models (that look fantastic, by the way), that nevertheless managed to cost twice what the more expensive metal models do.  

That was when I quit. When a single squad of a reasonably core unit (Terminator) would cost me a hundred bucks, I realized I had a problem and I joined 40k Anonymous. Their twelve step program (that is, tazing me right in the fuckign wallet twelve fucking times every time I glance at the 40k section of my local game store), has done me wonders.

Now days, when I get the urge to do model games (and that is increasingly rare, as I have had to lug giant boxes full of unfinished minis through three or four moves now...), I stick to Warmachine.

Good stuff Crüesader!

I've been playing 40k on/off/rinse/repeat since Rogue Trader, so I'll add some bits.

a) It's totally cool to be a 40k fan who never touches the minis.
40k is a diverse IP, and like the Crüe Dude said, the minis game mechanics =/= the presentation of the setting in the fluff of the novels, or even in the mechanics of some of the video games. As much as I love, love, love the 40k verse and devour the novels & comics like a fiend, I must admit there are better minis games out there. Even games with better sculpts.

BTW, the disconnect between the Fluff and Crunch can be pretty bizarre. Space Marines on the tabletop have no relation to the Space Marines as presented in the fluff. The average SM is barely equal to 2 orks. Your lone SM ain't taking on 10 Tyranid.

b) Ignore the forum bullshit.
There are three main styles of play in 40k - casual, competitive and tournament. Casual is where everyone's there for the fun first and foremost (they have Cheetos stains on their dice), but competitive can be fun if you have good players who are ethical and mature (yes, they do exist). Tournament play is fun for competitive people who enjoy crunching codexes and building armies based on math. You know who you are, go forth and find your brethren.

c) You can buy painted minis off eBay cheaply if you buy whole armies.
I can't paint worth a damn, so I buy painted minis. The funny thing is my painted armies cost about the same as if I bought them new, unassembled and unpainted. How? I buy whole armies and then sell back units I don't need. Often people sell armies very cheaply if its only half painted. That's gold because you can flip the unpainted stuff at a great price.

d) Crüesader is very right about "try before you buy" regarding how armies play.
I gotta give GW props about how different armies actually play differently. Of course, we can argue forever about which army plays "better" in which edition, but unless you are hardcore competitive, you should pick an army based on your play style. I love monsters, so I play Tyranids. I also love dwarves, but how dwarves play is antithetical to how I enjoy wargaming.

Oh, and Crüesader's advice about "starting with a small force" is especially good for 40k because there are Kill Team games. AKA, fast games where you don't bring an army, but instead bring a small force. Way back when, we called it "Lunchhammer" - aka, games you could play in 45mins.

I really loved Lunchhammer.

e) The Imperial Guard is weak. So what? Let's rock!
I played IG old school, back when lasguns were flashlights. There is something rocking about winning with IG than you don't get with the hot shit fancy pants armies. It's all about those hysterical moments when the dice gods smile upon you and your flashlights shoot the shit through units that cost ten times as much to field.

Quote from: Spinachcat;912641Good stuff Crüesader!

I've been playing 40k on/off/rinse/repeat since Rogue Trader, so I'll add some bits.

a) It's totally cool to be a 40k fan who never touches the minis.
40k is a diverse IP, and like the Crüe Dude said, the minis game mechanics =/= the presentation of the setting in the fluff of the novels, or even in the mechanics of some of the video games. As much as I love, love, love the 40k verse and devour the novels & comics like a fiend, I must admit there are better minis games out there. Even games with better sculpts.

BTW, the disconnect between the Fluff and Crunch can be pretty bizarre. Space Marines on the tabletop have no relation to the Space Marines as presented in the fluff. The average SM is barely equal to 2 orks. Your lone SM ain't taking on 10 Tyranid.  

It's perfectly cool to buy a handful of minis just for the RPG, too.  Part of the reason I'm buying a second batch of the new Death Watch minis when they sell them standalone.  I have several minis from armies I don't use.  It's kind of cool to give every PC a 'miniature' for his character that looks the way he wants.

Actually this reminds me have you guys heard the 40k bolter is a real gun ?

Eh. By its description it could be a sort of grenade launcher.  Feasible for, say, a 25mm grenade with a slow automatic rate of fire. Make 37mm or 40mm for Space Marines.

So in a purely prosaic sense, the Bolter is hardly anything to get excited about, unless its pointed in your general direction.  Slap a fancy name on it, assign it ancient and mystical traditions and presto!  Space Opera Super Cannon of Killy-killy Death!



Wait: What did you mean? Link or it didn't happen.

As a guy who never touched the minis (slips of paper worked well enough)...I find the PC games are good enough.

How many iterations of the rules has 40k gone through now? Ten? More? Everything I know about the game from '95 is pure rubbish now, I'm sure, and I reckon a hard core serious player who stopped in 2012 would probably be just as clueless as me as to how the game plays in 2016.

Who would sink hundreds of bucks into a game based on what some guy says? Of course you should start small. For me, $20 on a PC game is as small as it gets. ;)

I also play Oldhammer (aka, playing with an early rules set), especially Necromunda. I highly recommend Necromunda because the original ruleset is terrific and you never need to spend piles of money to have a rocking team to field. Also, the games are short and brutal.

Quote from: Doom;912744As a guy who never touched the minis (slips of paper worked well enough)...I find the PC games are good enough.

I'm not sure how you used slips of paper to play 40k, when things like 'line of sight' and 'cover' are a factor, though.

Quote from: Doom;912744Who would sink hundreds of bucks into a game based on what some guy says? Of course you should start small. For me, $20 on a PC game is as small as it gets. ;)

True story.  A guy I used to work with wanted to get into the hobby, and I told him "Call me up when you wanna do this"- he didn't.  One payday, he had some extra money... for a moment.  He ended up going to a Games Workshop store and walking out with about $500.00 worth of shit.  

If the PC games are what you want, so be it.  But they are not the same game.  They're the same setting.  The PC games have as much in common with the tabletop game as the D&D Side-Scroller arcade game does with D&D 5e.

Quote from: Spike;912741Eh. By its description it could be a sort of grenade launcher.  Feasible for, say, a 25mm grenade with a slow automatic rate of fire. Make 37mm or 40mm for Space Marines.

So in a purely prosaic sense, the Bolter is hardly anything to get excited about, unless its pointed in your general direction.  Slap a fancy name on it, assign it ancient and mystical traditions and presto!  Space Opera Super Cannon of Killy-killy Death!



Wait: What did you mean? Link or it didn't happen.

Actually its a 12 mm pistol that's about as useful as a sharp rock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98c2t_uK5Uo
There was also a carbine version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3IiWjdbUZg

Quote from: kosmos1214;912820Actually its a 12 mm pistol that's about as useful as a sharp rock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98c2t_uK5Uo
There was also a carbine version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3IiWjdbUZg

You've been playing too many RPGs. Many many people have died to sharp rocks.

This is hte first time I've heard the gyrojet referred to as a bolter.

Quote from: Spike;912834You've been playing too many RPGs. Many many people have died to sharp rocks.

This is hte first time I've heard the gyrojet referred to as a bolter.

Oh defiantly if its sharp it is dangerous but its also relative of you gave me a choice between a gyro jet and a m1917 id take the m1917.
As to the gyro-jet being a bolter iv heard it several times though im actually not hugely sharp on 40k lore.

My favorite version of 40k is 3rd.  Every Traitor Marine Legion and Founding Legion has their own rules, and Chaos is glorious in it's adaptability.  I think I statted up a 2000 pt army that was one Chaos Lord Biker and his unit.

These days, I just read the novels. I used to play a lot of games, though. It got way to expensive, and the editions started coming out way too fast. I sold my last minis around 2005 or so.

40k armies I played: Sisters of Battle, Chaos (Nurgle), Orks.
Fantasy armies: Skaven.
Mordheim warband: Beastmen.
Battlefleet Gothic: Orks.

The only game I truly miss is Mordheim, as we had a league going with around 16 players. My beastmen wrecked a lot of teams.

Much love to 40k 3rd, but its about as balanced as Rifts. And like Rifts, its hellishly fun.

BTW, SomethingAwful did a fun "review" of 40k
http://www.somethingawful.com/dungeons-and-dragons/wtf-rogue-trader/1/

Quote from: Spinachcat;912861Much love to 40k 3rd, but its about as balanced as Rifts. And like Rifts, its hellishly fun.

BTW, SomethingAwful did a fun "review" of 40k
http://www.somethingawful.com/dungeons-and-dragons/wtf-rogue-trader/1/

I saw a big stack of Rogue Trader magazines at a thrift shop and I beat myself up for not buying them.

...and then you joined a flagellant unit?

Cuz humans can't become troll slayers and you gotta do something after committing such an unforgivable act.

Quote from: Spinachcat;913096Cuz humans can't become troll slayers and you gotta do something after committing such an unforgivable act.

"Black Shield" will do just fine.

Ask a friend, 'cause friends don't let friends get hooked on the money pit that is GW.

Statement from a person online today:  "40k is an expensive game.  I can't afford to put down five hundred dollars just to get started."

Yes, it is.  And no matter how much you love 40k, you'll hate the prices.  But you don't have to lay down that kind of money right off the bat, and you don't need to spend that just to play the game.  

The best way to budget out your game is to determine what part of the hobby means the most to you- the gaming or the modeling.  

If you're into the modeling, then by all means pick the army that seems 'coolest' to you.  The 'Start Collecting' armies are a pretty good deal (They have the following sets: Imperial Guard, Tempestus Scions, Orks, Tau, Eldar, Daemons of Khorne, Daemons of Nurgle, Space Wolves, Tyranids, Necrons, Blood Angels, Chaos Space Marines, Space Marines, Skitarii (Mechanicus), and Dark Eldar).  These sets are $85.00 USD.  Also, there's a 'Dark Vengeance' boxed set with Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines for $110 and it has all the books and everything you need to start playing these models (minus dice and measuring tape, of course).

Bide your time painting- you don't need Citadel paints, you can use Testors or any other cheaper brand and it works just fine.  TBH, I don't recommend getting anything from Citadel unless it's just a weird shade you can't get right or something you just can't find anywhere else.

Once you've got your dudes painted, you should probably have enough cash to get one of your books.  I honestly recommend going online to find the rulebook from Dark Vengeance if you didn't get the boxed set- this can run about $30.00, but you can also get the rulebook through less 'legitimate' means.  I recommend getting this to get the basic rules down pat.

The Codex should be your next purchase, so see if you can get a used copy.  You can also grab this up for the fluff reading if you want.  It runs about $40-$60, depending on how much you like Space Marines.  

You don't have to buy all this stuff at once.  Take your time, hell- maybe grab a model or two to paint up and watch some Battle Reports while you save your dough.  

And ALWAYS see if you can find it cheaper from a third party, or a personal sale.  Chances are you will.  And even if it's been painted already, there's ways to remove the paint.

No need to spend $500 or spend a minute painting or assembling...

A fully painted Space Marine army is going for less than $100 on eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fully-Painted-Space-Marine-Raptor-Army-Warhammer-40k-Games-Workshop-/272341483582?hash=item3f68d1403e:g:RV4AAOSw65FXsMAq

Fully painted Tyranid army for $200 (quite nice too!)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-40K-painted-Tyranid-army-lot-with-Trygon-Tyrannofex-and-more-/142083799920?hash=item2114dabb70:g:f5UAAOSwZVlXrjvc

Fully painted Tau army (though I wonder if its 2000 pts)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Painted-Tau-Army-/201646511529?hash=item2ef31195a9:g:KegAAOSwqfNXiT08

Partially painted Tyranids (over 100 minis!!) for $200
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tyranid-army-40k-warhammer-Over-100-Models-4K-Points-Partial-Painted-Conversions-/191947076935?hash=item2cb0eff547:g:V2IAAOSwV0RXsoey

Partially painted Necron army for $60
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-40k-Painted-Necron-Army-OOP-/182244733344?hash=item2a6ea1f1a0:g:zwAAAOSwV0RXsi7I

Quote from: Crüesader;913137"Black Shield" will do just fine.

BTW, just in case anyone reading didn't catch the reference.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Blackshield

And Crüesader, that would be suitable penance as long as you're wearing Beakie armor!

There is a steady stream of players getting out of the game or selling their armies because they suddenly need money.  Be patient and watch ebay.

Quote from: yosemitemike;913407There is a steady stream of players getting out of the game or selling their armies because they suddenly need money.  Be patient and watch ebay.

I've bought both of the starter sets because they're a bargain and come with sick models.  Both times I've sold one army and the rulebooks and extra goodies out of the box that I didn't need for disgustingly cheap.

Quote from: Spinachcat;913398And Crüesader, that would be suitable penance as long as you're wearing Beakie armor!

The Corvus helm is incompatible with Mark VII power armor.  I would prefer a crusader helm.

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One thing to watch out for is buying more models than you can handle assembling and painting.  I went mad years ago and bought enough Lizardmen to make a 3,000+ point army including one of the big old army boxes, a number of additional boxes, special units and special HQ models.  The sheer volume of models to assemble, paint and base was overwhelming.  The entire army is still in boxes.  It was $700-800 worth of models back then.  It would easily cost double that now.  Every time I think of doing something with it, I look at the number of models I have to deal with and put it back.  I have a High Elves army that I got the same way.  It's not as big but it's easily 2,000 points.

Quote from: yosemitemike;913630One thing to watch out for is buying more models than you can handle assembling and painting.  I went mad years ago and bought enough Lizardmen to make a 3,000+ point army including one of the big old army boxes, a number of additional boxes, special units and special HQ models.  The sheer volume of models to assemble, paint and base was overwhelming.  The entire army is still in boxes.  It was $700-800 worth of models back then.  It would easily cost double that now.  Every time I think of doing something with it, I look at the number of models I have to deal with and put it back.  I have a High Elves army that I got the same way.  It's not as big but it's easily 2,000 points.

Do you want me to teach you a breakdown on how to do massive numbers of models at once?

Quote from: Crüesader;913646Do you want me to teach you a breakdown on how to do massive numbers of models at once?

I should probably do something with all of those Warhammer models sitting in boxes but the sheer number is daunting.  I haven't inventoried it for a while but I think there are 60 saurus infantary alone.  It's the monsters too.  I have maybe 2 tegadons, a carnosaur, a dozen or more pteradons and I don't remember what all else.

Quote from: yosemitemike;913932I should probably do something with all of those Warhammer models sitting in boxes but the sheer number is daunting.  I haven't inventoried it for a while but I think there are 60 saurus infantary alone.  It's the monsters too.  I have maybe 2 tegadons, a carnosaur, a dozen or more pteradons and I don't remember what all else.

One bite at a time.  Run a RPG campaign where there's Lizardmen and Dinosaurs and get them together bit by bit.  Eventually you'll have an army.

Quote from: Spike;912638My advice: Just don't do it. Or, if you absolutely must, wait until the inevitable crash, so they stop producing new editions every other year. Seriously, they haven't managed to produce a full line of codecii (codexes?), for a single edition since.. I dunno... third maybe? That was five teen years ago, give or take. They are on edition seven or eight now, I hear, and thats not counting apocalypse.  Hell, fifth edition managed to put out TWO core space marine codexes before they touched the Orks (I should point out I am not an Ork player, so this isn't a personal beef. In fact, i'm a damn Space Marine fan... so I'm the asshole stuck with having to rebuy my damn codex just in time for a new edition, with a god damn new fucking codex, before I even get around to making a new army list with the LAST god damn codex.... )

Also there is the small problem of moving to cheaper plastic models (that look fantastic, by the way), that nevertheless managed to cost twice what the more expensive metal models do.  

That was when I quit. When a single squad of a reasonably core unit (Terminator) would cost me a hundred bucks, I realized I had a problem and I joined 40k Anonymous. Their twelve step program (that is, tazing me right in the fuckign wallet twelve fucking times every time I glance at the 40k section of my local game store), has done me wonders.

Now days, when I get the urge to do model games (and that is increasingly rare, as I have had to lug giant boxes full of unfinished minis through three or four moves now...), I stick to Warmachine.

OR just play Rogue Trader, and screw any codexes.

Quote from: yosemitemike;913407There is a steady stream of players getting out of the game or selling their armies because they suddenly need money.  Be patient and watch ebay.

Craigslist I'd recommend over ebay. For $50 a few months ago I got three boxes containing a complete 2000point dwarf army, about 1000 points of Tyranids and Chaos marines, a 3000+ point dark eldar army, and two copies of the warhammer fortress and other scenery bits. Just a lady cleaning out her garage after her sons left for college. :)

Quote from: TristramEvans;914439Craigslist I'd recommend over ebay. For $50 a few months ago I got three boxes containing a complete 2000point dwarf army, about 1000 points of Tyranids and Chaos marines, a 3000+ point dark eldar army, and two copies of the warhammer fortress and other scenery bits. Just a lady cleaning out her garage after her sons left for college. :)

I haven't used Craigslist myself.

I've actually got fuckloads of Space Marines laying about in pieces.  Why?  

Because I'm a picky bastard.  I don't like standard Astartes helmets or Corvus helms (beakies), I don't like using them without helmets- I do my best to use the variants.  So far, between my Black Templars and my working Deathwatch army- I'm using no standard helms.  I also don't like using the normal torsos or the legs that don't have kneepads.  I spent a shitload at Forge World on Heresy-era helmets of all sorts when Brexit happened and the Pound dropped just to trick out my dudes and make them look awesome.

That being said, I've probably got 2 squads of troops, some blank shoulderpads, and a shitload of random arms and guns.  Eventually, I'll count them up and put them out there for sale- or keep them at my place for a 'demo army' for someone who seems interested.

Quote from: TristramEvans;914437OR just play Rogue Trader, and screw any codexes.

Yep, still my favorite version of 40K fluff and rules... MUCH more open-ended and pretty much a proto-RPG. Good for a skirmish game now and then.
Otherwise, there are MUCH better rules to be had where you can still play in that setting if you want.

Quote from: Simlasa;915573Yep, still my favorite version of 40K fluff and rules... MUCH more open-ended and pretty much a proto-RPG. Good for a skirmish game now and then.
Otherwise, there are MUCH better rules to be had where you can still play in that setting if you want.

In my area, 5150 Star Army is the rules system alternative of choice for most 40K gamers.

I'm interested in Priestly's new game through Warlord...Gates of Antaros or something? Hear the rules are very good.

Haven't heard about Priestly's new game, but I'd love to learn more.

Any links?

Quote from: Crüesader;914676So far, between my Black Templars and my working Deathwatch army- I'm using no standard helms.  I also don't like using the normal torsos or the legs that don't have kneepads.

Post some pics!

Quote from: Spinachcat;915656Post some pics!

'Working'... I should have been more clear- a 'work in progress'.  Not all of the Forge World helms are playing nicely with the high gorget on the new Death Watch models.  I'm having to do a bit of work.

Good news, though- rumor has it the 'Kill Team' rules are coming back!!!

EDIT: CONFIRMED they are coming back.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]315[/ATTACH]

Honestly, this is a great little spot to start 40k.  A handful of dudes and you're ready to do some quick games.  Easy to build onto and around this.

SO, I know that the 'rules' I put in the first post should cover a lot of things, but I'm going to clue you in on some types of gamers you should avoid.  Fortunately, they are rare- but scumbags exist EVERYWHERE.  I'll tell you the name, and how to deal with them.

1- The Rules Scholar:  Not to be confused with someone who knows the rules, but these are guys that will tell you rules and never manage to show them- most often, this 'rule' will work to your disadvantage or his advantage.  Spoiler:  He's pulling this 'rule' out of his ass.

How to deal with him:  Ask him to show you where that rule is:  "Oh, I didn't know that.  Can you show me where that is?  I feel like an idiot for missing that."  No matter what, press him to 'help you find that rule' but do it cool- the rules are pretty complex and it's normal for folks to remember old rules or remember something incorrectly.  Accusing someone of 'cheating' is pretty serious in gaming communities that are as small as your local 40k group.

2- The WAAC (Win At All Costs) gamers.  These are guys that are less concerned about having fun, and more concerned about winning the game.  They'll suck the enjoyment out of it, and to them- victory is all that counts.  They aren't even about 'challenge'- the sense of victory from mopping the table with an autistic ten-year-old that just got his first minis last week is no different than defeating a decades-seasoned veteran.  

How to deal with him:  Leave the game, if you've already started.  Otherwise, don't even play with him.  No sense in wasting your time on this guy, he's probably already known and hated in the community.  Even if you do break his winning streak- his reaction will be something you don't want to experience.  Rest assured, you can't 'win' without a game, and he'll think himself the master of 40k and he'll move back over to the Yu-Gi-Oh table to crush some grade-school children and be someone else's problem.

3- The Great Unclean One:  Some dudes STANK. This isn't exclusive to 40k- but the name is of Warhammer/WH40k origins so I just felt like it needed to be included.

How to deal with him:  In all fairness, I can't give you a good answer.  I'm biased- military life taught me to be as clean as possible, as often as possible (one nasty guy in the barracks could make everyone sick).  I have absolutely no problem looking at someone and saying, "Dude, you need a shower because you stink."  Yes, it's mean as fuck but the fact is- he probably stinks like that because no one else was willing to be mean as fuck.

So, a few questions about "doing Warhammer 40k".

Let's work from the premise that you don't have friends that are buying into it at the same time. That you're not part of a wargaming club. And that it seems that wargaming stores, GW and otherwise, seem like a dying breed in your metropolitan area. How do you go recommend going about finding other players that aren't dicks, don't play just for the win and don't smell like a dumpster? Are there forums that you recommend to find groups/clubs to get the ball rolling? Or is the best method to visit GW stores, try to get some games in with other customers, and network there? Does WH40k still have a driving presence in most major metropolitan areas, or has it started to decline? (It sure seems to be on the downswing in the Seattle area. 'Bunker' closures and GW stores closing or moving more to the outskirts of the metropolitan area).

The only time I've started my own wargaming club was with some friends back in 2011. I'd picked up some discounted AT-43 minis in 2010, and was really excited about the game. I'd convinced these friends to invest in their own armies - because you could do it pretty affordably, since the game was past the point of its decline, and there was no need for modeling. But that lasted maybe a year, as friends started having children and the group fell apart. I don't think that I'd be able to establish something like that again among friends.

As some background, when it comes to wargaming I really enjoy the modeling and painting. It's been more entertaining for me than playing historically, probably due to some bad play experiences. Case in point, around 2002 I started putting together a Warhammer Dwarf army. And I enjoyed the hell out of buying some random models to fill in gaps (like a bunch of drunken dwarf infantry), assembling all the war machines, and painting everything up. When I actually went down to a local GW store and tried to get some games in, I didn't enjoy it. It was confusing, and rules-laden, and not what I expected at all. That's likely on me, because I made the immediate leap to a 2000-point army in my excitement to build a large force, and missed out on development and learning opportunities that might have come if I'd started from a smaller 'warband'. After a few failed games I lost some inspiration, and ended up photographing the army, packing everything up, and selling it on eBay for a profit.

Quote from: K Peterson;915716So, a few questions about "doing Warhammer 40k".

Let's work from the premise that you don't have friends that are buying into it at the same time. That you're not part of a wargaming club. And that it seems that wargaming stores, GW and otherwise, seem like a dying breed in your metropolitan area. How do you go recommend going about finding other players that aren't dicks, don't play just for the win and don't smell like a dumpster? Are there forums that you recommend to find groups/clubs to get the ball rolling? Or is the best method to visit GW stores, try to get some games in with other customers, and network there? Does WH40k still have a driving presence in most major metropolitan areas, or has it started to decline? (It sure seems to be on the downswing in the Seattle area. 'Bunker' closures and GW stores closing or moving more to the outskirts of the metropolitan area).

I get it.  When I was a teenager, the nearest place to play was an hour away.  But the way I've found most games is by looking at those few stores that are still there for ads- or put up an ad yourself.  You can also go to forums for the particular type of game you want and put something out that you're seeking people in your area to play.  It's Seattle, probably quite a few.

Quote from: K Peterson;915716As some background, when it comes to wargaming I really enjoy the modeling and painting. It's been more entertaining for me than playing historically, probably due to some bad play experiences. Case in point, around 2002 I started putting together a Warhammer Dwarf army. And I enjoyed the hell out of buying some random models to fill in gaps (like a bunch of drunken dwarf infantry), assembling all the war machines, and painting everything up. When I actually went down to a local GW store and tried to get some games in, I didn't enjoy it. It was confusing, and rules-laden, and not what I expected at all. That's likely on me, because I made the immediate leap to a 2000-point army in my excitement to build a large force, and missed out on development and learning opportunities that might have come if I'd started from a smaller 'warband'. After a few failed games I lost some inspiration, and ended up photographing the army, packing everything up, and selling it on eBay for a profit.

Yeah, I would say that it's best to focus on a small army now.  Play games with just your core stuff and learn some in and outs.  Perhaps even just play an 'unbound' 500-point game with only Troops and a HQ unit, Hammer & Anvil.  This gets you familiar with the flow of the game and the phases of the turns, plus gives you an idea of how your special rules are going to come into play.

Rick Priestly's Beyond the Gates of Antares by Warlord Games

https://us-store.warlordgames.com/collections/beyond-the-gates-of-antares/products/beyond-the-gates-of-antares-starter-set

I'm excited by this one but I haven't brought it into my store beyond the early Beta version.  Hopefully I'll have the money to take a chance on more Warlord Games stuff.  Conflict 47 looks good.  I love Warlord Games but they haven't sold well for me.  Maybe now that they've moved on to more fantastical products they'll do better but I wish historical games were more popular.  It's sad to see a big historical company dash off after the scifi money.

BtGoA is indeed a transhumanist space opera set in the distant future where ftl is accomplished by means of warp gates for which the Antares system is a major nexus.  There are the advanced but rigid Concord.  Their troops are recognizable as human but are deeply linked to a network and lack personal volition and decision making skills.  The Isorian Shard are a branch of the Concord that got lost for a while and merged their network with an alien network, when they returned they had a variant operating system and they've been at war with the Concord ever since.

The Algoryn are a noble warrior race with scaly skin.  They're less advanced than the Concord and Isorians but better fighters.

The Ghar are a somewhat primitive race with leperous skin and feeble little goblin like bodies.  The Ghar are highly aggressive and fight in large three legged battle suits with heavy weapons.  Ghar outcasts fight in poorly armed mobs.

The Boromite Mining Guilds are Squats in rubber Ben Grimm suits.  They're cool but try not to think about it too hard.  They get some cool gravitic compression guns and mining tools.

The game itself runs on a variant of the Bolt Action order dice mechanic.  One die is placed in the cup for each unit you and your opponent have.  When a die of your color is pulled you get to activate a unit.  The dice have the orders printed on them and act as an activation marker and a reminder of what the unit did.  You can react to attacks by taking one of your dice out of the cup and play a "DOWN" order to make your guys a bit harder to hit.

Beyond that it's a pretty standard kind of d10 roll under profile stat game.  This makes it a bit more detailed than Bolt Action.  Drones and sensors play important roles in the game and many of the vehicles are robotic not manned.  Common weapon ranges run around 36 inches so it's a good deal more science fictiony than 40k and close combat is less common.

All told, I really like the looks of it but it's hard to say what customers will go for.  I've been burned too many times by bringing in things I think are cool.

Quote from: Crüesader;915664[ATTACH=CONFIG]315[/ATTACH]

Honestly, this is a great little spot to start 40k.  A handful of dudes and you're ready to do some quick games.  Easy to build onto and around this.

I saw this in my email update from GW and had to come comment.

Holy shit, GW have taken their heads partway out of their asses and put together a reasonably priced entry to 40k. I left at 6th edition because I just couldn't keep up with re-buying the core rules and codexes over and over. I'll definitley get this.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;915875I saw this in my email update from GW and had to come comment.

Holy shit, GW have taken their heads partway out of their asses and put together a reasonably priced entry to 40k. I left at 6th edition because I just couldn't keep up with re-buying the core rules and codexes over and over. I'll definitley get this.

I'm impressed.  The little squad engagements seem like almost a throwback to Necromunda in some way.  I'd love to see THAT make a comeback.

Of course, GW's head is still firmly up their poop chutes when it comes to pricing their scenery.  I say this when I've bought damned near half of it (I got a bonus and it was for my table).

Quote from: Crüesader;915900I'm impressed.  The little squad engagements seem like almost a throwback to Necromunda in some way.  I'd love to see THAT make a comeback.

Of course, GW's head is still firmly up their poop chutes when it comes to pricing their scenery.  I say this when I've bought damned near half of it (I got a bonus and it was for my table).

Any indication of rules for using other forces than SM or Tau?

Quote from: AaronBrown99;915901Any indication of rules for using other forces than SM or Tau?

I think the rules in one book.

"The Kill Team booklet is an updated version of the 6th edition rules and features:
· Expanded rules for Kill Team Leaders and Specialists, plus new special rules specifically written for Kill Team games
· Six Kill Team missions
· A section on additional gaming ideas – linked games, multiplayer Kill Team battles and games against hordes of enemies or powerful battle tanks "

That's what I've got so far, but this is available as well:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Kill-Team-Rules-EPUB

Quote from: Crüesader;915902I think the rules in one book.

"The Kill Team booklet is an updated version of the 6th edition rules and features:
· Expanded rules for Kill Team Leaders and Specialists, plus new special rules specifically written for Kill Team games
· Six Kill Team missions
· A section on additional gaming ideas – linked games, multiplayer Kill Team battles and games against hordes of enemies or powerful battle tanks "

That's what I've got so far, but this is available as well:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Kill-Team-Rules-EPUB

So you'll still need codexes, then?

Quote from: AaronBrown99;915903So you'll still need codexes, then?

I don't know.  

I mean, there's... ways you can get what you need, if you know what I'm saying.

Kill Team lists this as part of the box set.

" a small-format softback copy of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, providing the basic groundwork that Kill Team expands upon."

So it potentially MIGHT have a condensed section for the factions. That's speculation on my part, though, and it would probably be Kill Team focused.

Quote from: TristramEvans;915644In my area, 5150 Star Army is the rules system alternative of choice for most 40K gamers.

I like 5150 a lot, but it's a hard sell because you don't get perfect control of your army... they're likely to do things you can't foresee... which is part of what I like about those rules, and other games where command and control are real factors.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;915903So you'll still need codexes, then?

According to reviews, it comes with rules for the space marines and fire warriors that come in the box but that's all.

Quote from: yosemitemike;916077According to reviews, it comes with rules for the space marines and fire warriors that come in the box but that's all.

Nevermind...

Quote from: K Peterson;915716How do you go recommend going about finding other players that aren't dicks, don't play just for the win and don't smell like a dumpster?

Local conventions.
FLGS game days.
Meetup groups.

Quote from: K Peterson;915716The only time I've started my own wargaming club was with some friends back in 2011. I'd picked up some discounted AT-43 minis in 2010, and was really excited about the game.

I loved AT-43!!

Buy the old stuff off those breeders and introduce new friends to the game. Its pretty easy to get people to play a new wargame if they just have to show up and you have all the bling.

Quote from: K Peterson;915716It was confusing, and rules-laden, and not what I expected at all.

I highly suggest checking out Necromunda and Mordheim.

Quote from: Crüesader;915908I mean, there's... ways you can get what you need, if you know what I'm saying.

Gas, ass or grass?

Quote from: Spinachcat;916341Gas, ass or grass?

More like... 'the internet is a magical place'.

Quote from: Spinachcat;916341I loved AT-43!!

Buy the old stuff off those breeders and introduce new friends to the game. Its pretty easy to get people to play a new wargame if they just have to show up and you have all the bling.

That's not a bad idea at all. I see them about once a year now, so perhaps the next time we meet up I can suggest taking them off their hands for a bit of cash.

QuoteI highly suggest checking out Necromunda and Mordheim.

Are those games even available any more? Would I need to trawl eBay to find copies of the boxed sets, or could I get by with buying a rulebook and then gathering some terrain and warbands piece by piece?

(Sorry to the OP if I'm dragging this thread off-course. I can start another thread about this topic if it's a distraction).

I liked AT-43 too but the AT-43 scene died where I live off years ago.  I still have all my stuff.  I still have Therian, UNA and Space Russian armies for it.  Maybe I will do some demos of it.

Quote from: K Peterson;916397(Sorry to the OP if I'm dragging this thread off-course. I can start another thread about this topic if it's a distraction).

No, by all means.  I'm cool with this kind of chatter.

Quote from: K Peterson;916397Are those games even available any more? Would I need to trawl eBay to find copies of the boxed sets, or could I get by with buying a rulebook and then gathering some terrain and warbands piece by piece?

I've seen rules for both online. Don't know if they have official GW PDFs for sale.

What I like about both are how you can used regular 40k figs to make warbands. You don't have to buy the specialty figs to start. Half my Mordheim players only used figs out of their Fantasy armies.

Not endorsing piracy or anything but it's trivially easy to find PDF copies of the 40k codices online.

I found a pdf copy of the Mordheim rulebook online - a fan version with most of the fluff removed. Not sure of the legality of it. Will have to give it a read-through.

I'm not sure about edition, but I've always seen loads of 40k codices at Half Priced Books. Shelf-fulls at each store.

Quote from: K Peterson;916668I'm not sure about edition, but I've always seen loads of 40k codices at Half Priced Books. Shelf-fulls at each store.

For those of you in the States, Half Price is having a sale this weekend.

Updated original post.

One thing a new player should know is that people cheat in this game especially in competitive events.  People like to pretend it isn't happening but it is.  Watch out for dice shenanigans like rolling a bunch of dice near unrolled dice or picking up a pile of rolled dice so quickly you can't count the results.  If your opponent has an army you have never seen, make sure your opponent has their codex on hand.  If they don't, be suspicious.  If the tournament rules require that people have their codex (and they often do), get a judge.  Not bringing a codex while playing a little seen army like Dark Eldar or Sisters of Battle that most players aren't familiar with is a common cheating tactic and people generally suffer no consequences even if they are caught blatantly lying about their army.  I have seen a Dark Eldar player who had been playing them regularly for months get caught blatantly lying about his army's rules in the second game of a three game tournament and get away with it with no consequences at all.  He just shrugged and claimed it was a mistake even though that was obviously bullshit.  He actually told a new player that all Dark Eldar weapons are lance weapons including his basic infantry weapons.  When his second opponent was suspicious, he had coincidentally forgotten his codex. If that was an honest mistake, he's an illiterate moron.  it wasn't a mistake.  He was blatantly cheating and got caught.  Nothing happened to him either.  He went on to get second place.

Never, ever leave your miniatures unattended in a public venue.  These things are expensive and, sooner or later, they will disappear on you.  Measuring tapes and side cutters also have a way of disappearing.  Some of that may well be honest mistakes because everyone tends to have the same few brands but some of it isn't and your  $15 side cutters are gone either way.

Most players aren't like this.  Enough players are that you should keep things like this in mind.  Every hobby has bad apples, including this one.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917277One thing a new player should know is that people cheat in this game especially in competitive events...

Honestly, for the first couple of years I recommend staying away from tournaments unless it's a small 'newbie' tournament with low points and restrictions (1000 point, no flyer, no super-heavies, etc).  Tournaments are honestly discouraging, because the average guy doesn't realize that a lot of tournament competitors are REALLY good and spend hours trying to get a build that counters anything.  In blind tournaments, it's not as bad.  But in smaller ones where you can change your list (rare), you're going to get flattened.  These people may be playing a 2000 point game, but they have 10,000 points of models with them.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917277...If that was an honest mistake, he's an illiterate moron.  it wasn't a mistake.  He was blatantly cheating and got caught.  Nothing happened to him either.  He went on to get second place.

You say this like it's lazy and spineless judges, but in everything from 40k to even M:tG and other games there are tournament hosts that will rig it in favor of their friends.  Mainly because one of the judges wants a portion of the prize.

Having the Codex is a requirement if you're going to play against me.  I don't care if you have a reference document- but I expect to be able to see the codex and read the rule for myself.  Also, if you have the cash- buy nearly every codex you can.  Any of the free PDF's on Forge World, too.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917277Never, ever leave your miniatures unattended in a public venue.  These things are expensive and, sooner or later, they will disappear on you.  Measuring tapes and side cutters also have a way of disappearing.  Some of that may well be honest mistakes because everyone tends to have the same few brands but some of it isn't and your  $15 side cutters are gone either way.

This is quite common when there's kids around, but mostly the ones around 13 years old or so.  Don't get me wrong, I don't hate kids.  I just hate being around kids in a gaming store.  Not only are they little disease farms that touch everything, but many geeks forget they've got to do 'parenting' when they go into a gaming store, and they just let the little dismounts run about and do what they want. Little kids see little plastic toys, not expensive and painstakingly painted models.  In one particular store, I watched a guy look all over for a model and after a bit- some random dude walks over with his slobbering kid crying- he hands back a wet, chewed-up Ork missing arms and all kinds of stuff and hands it back.  His response was, "My son had this, I'm sorry, but you need to keep a better eye on your stuff".  This shit.  This exact shit.

Some adult gamers will steal shit, too.  Which is quite honestly sad and pathetic- it's a fun hobby, but if you've got to steal to play it you probably need to look into a cheaper hobby.  A town near my first duty station had such a problem with stealing that the dude had to put Warhammer 40k models in cabinets behind him like it was a gun store.  Guys would come in while he was working alone, and ask questions about books in the other end of the store- and another dude would stuff the boxes into his jacket and pants.  Fortunately, the community was cool enough that he always had one 'lurker' in the store that he'd let read through books and paint models that helped him keep an eye on the place (this was the store where the dude stole my dice, and that 'lurker' was a lifesaver).

Quote from: yosemitemike;917277Most players aren't like this.  Enough players are that you should keep things like this in mind.  Every hobby has bad apples, including this one.

Yeah, it's not unheard of.  Most players are really cool people, and just want an honest and fun game.  Fortunately, the hobby is small enough that scumbags earn the reputation quickly.  If you see a guy no one's ever playing with, he's probably 'that guy'.  Truth be told, though- I ran into more unhinged people in my other interests to say that wargaming is a lot friendlier.

Quote from: Crüesader;917288You say this like it's lazy and spineless judges, but in everything from 40k to even M:tG and other games there are tournament hosts that will rig it in favor of their friends.  Mainly because one of the judges wants a portion of the prize.

Having the Codex is a requirement if you're going to play against me.  I don't care if you have a reference document- but I expect to be able to see the codex and read the rule for myself.  Also, if you have the cash- buy nearly every codex you can.  Any of the free PDF's on Forge World, too.

I think that any player who shows up at a tournament without his codex should simply be disqualified on the spot.  Maybe that's why they didn't want me to be a judge.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917301I think that any player who shows up at a tournament without his codex should simply be disqualified on the spot.  Maybe that's why they didn't want me to be a judge.

You're the exact guy I want to be a judge.  The rule is supposed to be 'must bring all required gaming materials'.  That includes Codex, dice, measuring tools, army list points in hard copy, templates, and models.  Even with my group, people bring their own materials.  

Call me weird, but handling other peoples' items... I've seen too many dirty neckfats in my time to feel comfortable doing this.  I dislike being sick, because it means I cannot go to work (hospital), and I lose money.  If I show up sick, I lose my job.  There's a reason I carry hand sanitizer around with me.  I've seen an entire installation get shut down and quarantined because of too many sick people (Camp Johnson/Camp Lejeune in spring 2001), and it's generally tied back to one guy that didn't wash his hands (or himself).

Quote from: Crüesader;917288(this was the store where the dude stole my dice, and that 'lurker' was a lifesaver).

definitely lurkers as you call them are a good thing if they are honest in any store where you have a lot of expensive stuff laying around they can save the owner a lot of money.

Quote from: Crüesader;917288Yeah, it's not unheard of.  Most players are really cool people, and just want an honest and fun game.  Fortunately, the hobby is small enough that scumbags earn the reputation quickly.  If you see a guy no one's ever playing with, he's probably 'that guy'.  Truth be told, though- I ran into more unhinged people in my other interests to say that wargaming is a lot friendlier.

yep no mater what game you play or hobby you are in there are ass holes.

Quote from: kosmos1214;917307yep no mater what game you play or hobby you are in there are ass holes.

I've seen grown men get into fistfights over fantasy football.  Trust me, our little hobby has more 'weirdos' than outright assholes, but we've certainly got enough to notice.

Quote from: Crüesader;917303You're the exact guy I want to be a judge.  The rule is supposed to be 'must bring all required gaming materials'.  That includes Codex, dice, measuring tools, army list points in hard copy, templates, and models.  Even with my group, people bring their own materials.  

I also think that people who don't have a printed army list with points cost for everything including gear options should simply be disqualified.  Fudging army lists is another very common method of cheating and very difficult to catch unless the person has a hard copy list to check.  

Fudging army lists is another common way of cheating.  One thing that always baffled me was the number of people who thought it as acceptable to bring a list that was over on points.  Why do people think it's acceptable to come to an X point tournament game with a list that has more than X points in it?  It's cheating.  People look at me like I have gone mad when I say that.  It's only 20 points over in a 1,500 point game!  That means you are just cheating a little instead of a lot.  They would look at lists, see they were over points and just go on even though the list always had multiple gear options that could be just crossed out to make it under points.  I never understood it.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917314I also think that people who don't have a printed army list with points cost for everything including gear options should simply be disqualified.  Fudging army lists is another very common method of cheating and very difficult to catch unless the person has a hard copy list to check.  

Fudging army lists is another common way of cheating.  One thing that always baffled me was the number of people who thought it as acceptable to bring a list that was over on points.  Why do people think it's acceptable to come to an X point tournament game with a list that has more than X points in it?  It's cheating.  People look at me like I have gone mad when I say that.  It's only 20 points over in a 1,500 point game!  That means you are just cheating a little instead of a lot.  They would look at lists, see they were over points and just go on even though the list always had multiple gear options that could be just crossed out to make it under points.  I never understood it.

Yeah, my friend is writing a program for this, though whether he finishes it or not is anyone's guess.  I always check mine, and use a spreadsheet with formulas for it.  I have a binder for my stuff with one of those little calculators in the inside cover, and I always offer to let the player check my numbers through the codex if he wants.  I'm usually always under points- the closest I've gotten is 4 away from the total.  Most of the time it's 5 points, sometimes 10 because I'm an idiot that forgets Meltabombs exist.  

For a friendly game, I can tolerate like 5 points over.  It's a casual game, and I don't mind.  If playing for a tournament, yeah- the points total is there for a second.  

If the guy miscalculated, I can see that.  But blatantly making a list that's over points cost is cheating at worst, disrespecting other players at best.  At the last ones I went to, it would be just like you said- there'd be a couple of guys scratching out things on their list.  

I also dislike the 'counts as' rule sometimes.  My buddy that's making the list said one guy's sergeant weargear went from Combi-Melta to Combi-Plas in one turn.  There's a reason that the rule 'must be represented on the model' is there.  It's to show that you have what you're claiming he has, and give a reference.

(shrug) I only ever game with friends.That's true of wargames as well as RPGs. Friends first, gaming comes second. Hence no horror stories, no worries about cheating, just sit around, drink a few beers, and have fun pushing about toy soldiers.

If you want gaming tournament horror stories, Magic wins hands down. Damn, I've heard crazy stories - especially back in the day when prices for rares were outrageous.

If people want to cheat, they will. Another benefit of having a home crew or a FLGS regulars who you trust. But in all my years of playing Warhammer, I've mostly encountered honest players who just want to have fun. Some can get rules wanky (like RPGers), but in general, its been a good experience.

Also, honest mistakes do happen. Not everybody has perfect reading comprehension, and I've seen plenty of rules that should have been written with more clarity, or should have taken into account other conflicting rules.

But yeah, always bring the current Codex for your army with a detailed printout of your figs and points. It's basic etiquette. Yet again, the magical rule of "don't be a douche nozzle" solves 99% of gaming problems.

Quote from: Spinachcat;917864Also, honest mistakes do happen. Not everybody has perfect reading comprehension, and I've seen plenty of rules that should have been written with more clarity, or should have taken into account other conflicting rules.

Yeah.  There's a dude I knew that played for years (according to him).  He was constantly confusing 'Fearless' with 'And The Shall Know No Fear'.  He honestly thought they were the same thing.  I didn't get pissy with him, I just sat down and showed it to him.  Come to find out, it wasn't his misinterpretation... it was another player that he learned that from.  Whether the other player was lying or just didn't read the rules is beyond me.

Quote from: Spinachcat;917864But yeah, always bring the current Codex for your army with a detailed printout of your figs and points. It's basic etiquette. Yet again, the magical rule of "don't be a douche nozzle" solves 99% of gaming problems.

I take absurdity to a whole new level and have a second sheet for individual unit point cost and page # of the Codex.  I didn't make it for this exact purpose, but I realized it was useful for this.

Quote from: Spinachcat;917864If you want gaming tournament horror stories, Magic wins hands down. Damn, I've heard crazy stories - especially back in the day when prices for rares were outrageous.

The more money there is at stake, the more people will try to cheat.  There's much more money at stake in Magic than in 40k.

Quote from: Spinachcat;917864Also, honest mistakes do happen. Not everybody has perfect reading comprehension, and I've seen plenty of rules that should have been written with more clarity, or should have taken into account other conflicting rules.

Some players have a track record of regularly making mistakes that are always in their favor.  I have seen a guy interpret a rule one way in one game and then the opposite way in the next game in the same tournament depending on what benefited him.

Quote from: Spinachcat;917864But yeah, always bring the current Codex for your army with a detailed printout of your figs and points. It's basic etiquette. Yet again, the magical rule of "don't be a douche nozzle" solves 99% of gaming problems.

Too bad douche nozzles don't care about that rule.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917881Some players have a track record of regularly making mistakes that are always in their favor.  I have seen a guy interpret a rule one way in one game and then the opposite way in the next game in the same tournament depending on what benefited him.

"Fool me once, I'm mad. Fool me twice, How could you. Fool me thrice, you're officially that guy, alright?"
- JonTron

Nothing ever seems to happen to That Guy too.  A couple of us brought this to the judge's attention.  He shrugged it off as an honest mistake and did nothing.  I don't know how interpreting the same rule in two different ways in two consecutive games in a way that gives you an advantage can reasonably be called an honest mistake but there you go.

My favorite That Guy story was a That Guy at a con who had these troops that could deploy anywhere on the board so long as it wasn't within 2" of an enemy model, he would use it for HUEG RAEP in show after show.  Well the rule was that if he deployed off the board, for purposes of the game his force was considered "lost".  Well he stated his movement, that he was going to deploy directly behind his opponent's Kroot force...well, the Kroot player had enough troops, and the way Kroot work (or worked at the time) was that single models could be up to 2" from each other and still not face morale problems.

So the Kroot player deployed exactly on the table edge of his side, which means that the guy with the teleporting unit by default had to deploy off the board, and thus lost.  The GW game judges were quite happy as this guy had been fucking everyone left right and center with this BS in match after match, until Mr. Kroot stopped him.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;918281My favorite That Guy story was a That Guy at a con who had these troops that could deploy anywhere on the board so long as it wasn't within 2" of an enemy model, he would use it for HUEG RAEP in show after show.  Well the rule was that if he deployed off the board, for purposes of the game his force was considered "lost".  Well he stated his movement, that he was going to deploy directly behind his opponent's Kroot force...well, the Kroot player had enough troops, and the way Kroot work (or worked at the time) was that single models could be up to 2" from each other and still not face morale problems.

So the Kroot player deployed exactly on the table edge of his side, which means that the guy with the teleporting unit by default had to deploy off the board, and thus lost.  The GW game judges were quite happy as this guy had been fucking everyone left right and center with this BS in match after match, until Mr. Kroot stopped him.

Hehe yeah, here's the money shot.
(https://i.imgur.com/t6oCXhE.jpg)

Nice collection of White Scars bikes, too bad the guy has to play like a whiny little bitch with them.

Don't underestimate the importance of terrain.  You don't need a bunch to start but it really adds to the look and feel of the game.  You can buy it or make it yourself from bits and pieces you have lying around.  It doesn't have to be expensive.
[video=youtube;7N6Tii5N0NM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N6Tii5N0NM[/youtube]

I love cool terrain bits. I don't even care if it messes with my force. It adds so much to the game and my immersion in the gameplay.

Quote from: Spinachcat;918417I love cool terrain bits. I don't even care if it messes with my force. It adds so much to the game and my immersion in the gameplay.

There's a US company that makes some great stuff.  We're probably about to throw some money at them. http://www.armorcast.com/fantasy/cathedral

The truth is, though- I want the stuff to make a Necron Tomb World.  I've got mats for desert and urban.

Quote from: Crüesader;918420There's a US company that makes some great stuff.  We're probably about to throw some money at them. http://www.armorcast.com/fantasy/cathedral

The truth is, though- I want the stuff to make a Necron Tomb World.  I've got mats for desert and urban.

I wonder if GW will hit the point where they change all the graphical presentation of 40k from gothic to overtly techno gothic, so that someone couldn't use "cathedral" stuff that could come from Armageddon or Paris circa 1944.

What is that, a third of GW's prices?

Quote from: CRKrueger;918425What is that, a third of GW's prices?

Yeah, but it's also resin.  Which means a lot of cleaning up the pieces, and they can sometimes turn out to be absolute shit.  My friend ordered a pyramid from some place in Europe.  When he got it, it had pockmarks all over the sides (which, I guess was okay for 'blast marks').  Then when the thing was assembled, the sides were warped.  We had to 'fix' it with hot water and even then it was just shit.  And on the site's picture, the sides were smooth and flat like 'Necron stuff'.  But the one we got was 'rough and brick'.  It was also wafer-thin.  For $15.00, I guess it wasn't -terrible-, but it's almost more work than its value.

Quote from: Crüesader;918420There's a US company that makes some great stuff.  We're probably about to throw some money at them. http://www.armorcast.com/fantasy/cathedral

The truth is, though- I want the stuff to make a Necron Tomb World.  I've got mats for desert and urban.

Have you considered HirstArts (http://www.hirstarts.com)? With right kind of paintjob, their Egyptian blocks would do well as Necron stuff.

Speaking of cathedrals, I made this little thing with HA blocks some time ago for my then-Mordheim (currently Song of Ruins and Ratmen) project.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]372[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Dr. Ink'n'stain;918665Have you considered HirstArts (http://www.hirstarts.com)? With right kind of paintjob, their Egyptian blocks would do well as Necron stuff.

The only problem with their stuff is that's it's really heavy.

That it is. And casting just the stuff you actually need in great quantities can be a pain. Which is why most of my more recent stuff is made with only about 20% HA blocks, and the rest being foamcore, balsa and cardboard.

Quote from: Crüesader;918420There's a US company that makes some great stuff.  We're probably about to throw some money at them. http://www.armorcast.com/fantasy/cathedral

The truth is, though- I want the stuff to make a Necron Tomb World.  I've got mats for desert and urban.

Quote from: yosemitemike;918288Don't underestimate the importance of terrain.  You don't need a bunch to start but it really adds to the look and feel of the game.  You can buy it or make it yourself from bits and pieces you have lying around.  It doesn't have to be expensive.
[video=youtube;7N6Tii5N0NM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N6Tii5N0NM[/youtube]

Quote from: Dr. Ink'n'stain;918665Have you considered HirstArts (http://www.hirstarts.com)? With right kind of paintjob, their Egyptian blocks would do well as Necron stuff.

Speaking of cathedrals, I made this little thing with HA blocks some time ago for my then-Mordheim (currently Song of Ruins and Ratmen) project.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]372[/ATTACH]

Thanks for the find these are cool.

Quote from: Dr. Ink'n'stain;918799That it is. And casting just the stuff you actually need in great quantities can be a pain. Which is why most of my more recent stuff is made with only about 20% HA blocks, and the rest being foamcore, balsa and cardboard.

Would you be willing to give a little detail how you go about this?

Quote from: kosmos1214;918867Thanks for the find these are cool.


Would you be willing to give a little detail how you go about this?

Luckily, I haven't always been as lazy as I am today (OMG has it been three years already!): Ruined houses Part 1 (http://inknstain.blogspot.fi/2013/05/city-in-ruins-ruined-houses.html), Part 2 (http://inknstain.blogspot.fi/2013/05/city-in-ruins-ruined-houses-basement.html) and Part 3 (http://inknstain.blogspot.fi/2013/05/city-in-ruins-ruined-houses-pt-ii.html). Although these design rely a bit for my own custom molds, but door and window frames are easy enough to do from balsa dowels as well, and the corner bricks could be just straight pillars. I just wanted to streamline the process a bit.

Aand here are a couple of shots at a 95% finished stage (Mostly just some finishing touches painting left to do):

[ATTACH=CONFIG]376[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]377[/ATTACH]

Hope these give some inkling of the process.

Quote from: Dr. Ink'n'stain;918987Luckily, I haven't always been as lazy as I am today (OMG has it been three years already!): Ruined houses Part 1 (http://inknstain.blogspot.fi/2013/05/city-in-ruins-ruined-houses.html), Part 2 (http://inknstain.blogspot.fi/2013/05/city-in-ruins-ruined-houses-basement.html) and Part 3 (http://inknstain.blogspot.fi/2013/05/city-in-ruins-ruined-houses-pt-ii.html). Although these design rely a bit for my own custom molds, but door and window frames are easy enough to do from balsa dowels as well, and the corner bricks could be just straight pillars. I just wanted to streamline the process a bit.

Aand here are a couple of shots at a 95% finished stage (Mostly just some finishing touches painting left to do):

[ATTACH=CONFIG]376[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]377[/ATTACH]

Hope these give some inkling of the process.

Yes some thank you.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917277One thing a new player should know is that people cheat in this game especially in competitive events...

Yes.  There are a small number of tournament players that pull some wild tricks.  

They'll intentionally make a move that they know is 'wrong', just to see if you'll catch it.  If you don't call them on it before their turn/phase is over, it's too late.  If you try to call it after the fact, they'll tell the judge it was a 'mistake', but the judges will usually say it's a mistake and you didn't stop it before the end of the turn or phase- so you have to go with it, no 'do-overs'.  As long as he doesn't repeat it, he's fine by many tournament rules... but keep in mind, there are quite a few other opportunities for 'honest mistakes'.

On the flipside, they'll even try to challenge you on your rules.  While you're looking the rule up, they'll escalate and say that they 'know' the rule and try to make you uncomfortable because you're 'slowing down the game', and even act like they're going to call over a judge. Most people don't do well with confrontation, and these sorts will many times start the game out being extremely nice, so it makes them being upset feel that much more uncomfortable.  No matter what, don't let this get to you.  It's a trick, these guys have done this for years and gotten away with it and they know how to push you.  It's a mind-game.

When it comes to dice rolls and the like, if people are rolling and counting extremely fast and making calculations faster than you can comprehend- tell them to slow down.  When someone throws dice and snatches them up quickly and states a total- you have to tell them to slow down.  Cheaters have played this game for years.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917277Never, ever leave your miniatures unattended in a public venue.  These things are expensive and, sooner or later, they will disappear on you.  Measuring tapes and side cutters also have a way of disappearing.  Some of that may well be honest mistakes because everyone tends to have the same few brands but some of it isn't and your  $15 side cutters are gone either way.

After doing quite a bit of thinking on tournaments/conventions, and listening to some other people have a discussion... I wanted to come back to this point.

One thing that happens a bit at these things is theft.  More so than you want to believe.  And to be fair, a lot of these folks aren't straight-up players.  A lot of them are 'spectators'.  There's a particular tactic to be aware of, and I think it's worth sharing.  

You're playing your game, and several people show up- many times young kids (and yes, this is part of the reason I hate gaming around children).  They'll bombard you with distractions- asking questions, complimenting your painting, sometimes even going as far to touch your models so you instinctively put your eyes on them.  What you don't realize is that your bag or box with your other models, books, cards- it's getting pillaged by one of those people or someone walking by that's planned this.  People have lost hundreds and even thousands of dollars worth of gaming materials.  And it's quite easy for them to snag a model from the casualty pile when you're not looking.  Wargame models are stupid expensive, and people know this.  They'll snag your models, pocket them, and then sell them off for a quick buck.  There are plenty of stories out there about kids doing this, and they travel in packs.  If you try to confront them, they'll freak out and make a scene.  

Another thing to look out for is the 'dice drop under the table'.  Sometimes people will drop a dice under the table, go under to 'get it' and end up grabbing stuff from your bag.

Mike's statement is 100% valid- always keep an eye on your stuff.  Any tournament/convention I've ever seen has posted the advisory that they are not responsible for lost, misplaced, or stolen items.

Invest in a box that can lock, and keep it at your feet or with a trustworthy friend nearby.  

If you can cable-lock it to the table... do it.  

And mark your models and materials.  I recommend carving your initials under the base.

So, Warhammer 30k, AKA 'Horus Heresy'.  I did some research on this because I have a lot of Space Marines in boxes just kind of... sitting there.  I haven't really played it, ever- so most of what I'm going off is from other players.

Pros:

Cool models, a much bigger variety of interesting looks for the Astartes.  All the legions have their own little unique helms and torsos.  Not to mention, things like Dreadnaughts and Terminators had different versions back then.

A lot of wargear to add new strategies.  A lot more tanks and stuff, some very interesting weapons beside the basic stuff you see Space Marines use in 40k.  Some of it is very situational, but from what I've read it looks like it could be fun.

Being entirely 'Space Marines', people who swear by it will tell you that there's no 'this army isn't competitive because of no Codex update/bad formations/whatever'.  It generally boils down to everyone having access to just about exactly the same stuff, so if you lose it's because you chose poorly, the dice gods were not with you, or you didn't use a solid strategy.  Some folks say it's a more 'pure' tabletop strategy game that suffers from fewer balance issues because Crunch writers aren't boosting their favorites and nerfing the ones they dislike.

Cons:  

It's Forge World stuff.  Unless the UK does a Double Brexit, those prices are gonna stay steep (and even then, if you're in the UK it's not gonna change).  We're talking like, $20.00 for a box of 10 helmets (not an exact calculation).  Some of the vehicles run near what some folks make in a pay period, so... yeah.

Not all of the things from 40k are here.  You're using huge squads of Space Marines (around 20), and it's one of those things where they get cheaper if you start taking more after around 10.  Since there's not a whole lot of options to throw that many guys into a vehicle, and even then you're sacrificing firepower on the transport- you've got this.  I'm not sure how Drop Pods work in 30k, either.  In the end, you're looking at Space Marine blobs, and apparently they don't have 'And They Shall Know No Fear'.  

Apparently while you can still technically use a 30k army against a 40k army, I've never seen this done.  What I've come to understand is that 30k armies either stomp other armies senseless or they get shredded by mobile/fast armies.  I don't know of anyone that would even want a game against them, because....

Your rules are spread across several ludicrously expensive books.  Again, Forge World prices.  You'd think that they're paying divine beings to come and make this stuff.  And it's not just that it's expensive- it's expensive and not in the same book.  Which means you need to tote a library with you, and most people don't want to play an army they can't read up on.

The game is best played at 3000+ points.  Which means LONG games.  And a lot of models.  Which is a huge deterrent.  While it'd be cool to see the layout on a table, that's just asking for a good 6 hours of your life to play.  Most 40k players don't even have forces for points that high, and even if they had enough models- that doesn't mean they're all usable at once, because people buy other stuff to swap around for a ~2000 point army, not to make that army bigger.


I can't tell you whether you want to play this or not.  If you've got the income for it, knock yourself out.  But even the guys at my FLGS have never seen someone bring in a 30k army.  For all the coolness it seems to offer, it doesn't seem to be worth it.  You'd be hard-pressed to find a game, and finding several games would mean you need to travel.

IMHO, the best thing you could do is see what things from 30k are usable with a 40k army and do that, whether they're cosmetic or mechanical.  The custom stuff looks really cool, and is a great way to give Astartes a unique look instead of the ho-hum look they usually have.  If you had a 40k Army like Ultramarines, White Scars, etc. that was one of the original Legions you could probably build up on that and have a 40k and a 30k army to play with.  

But if you can afford the stuff, I'm impressed.  As much as I love the game, I can't justify spending that kind of money.

Of course, no one is forced to just buy GW/FW models. There's tons of options outside of GW for a 30K army for poor people, or those that just want to support miniatures studios besides the GW ones.

And of course, there are cheap 30K plastics available these days even from GW.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;934369Of course, no one is forced to just buy GW/FW models. There's tons of options outside of GW for a 30K army for poor people, or those that just want to support miniatures studios besides the GW ones.

And of course, there are cheap 30K plastics available these days even from GW.

Yep.  But, if you want all the cool bells and whistles... you need some FW goodies.

In other news, might be starting an Alpha Legion force soon for both 40k and 30k.

Personally, I think Scribor's bells and whistles are heads above anything GW or FW are pushing these days.