QuotePeregrin, it was more the general sense that we were talking past each other. I get the feeling that what you are calling 'immersion' is the very general kind of semi-hypnotic state that accompanies any task that requires a certain steady amount of concentration. What others might call 'immersion' is a specific type of it, specific to certain ways of experiencing fictions.

No, I get that.  But I also don't believe in immersion the way most describe it for role-playing, either -- I think the SoD definition of immersion is a bad one.  It's an oversimplification of how people relate to media of any kind, including fiction.  Western art has generally moved away from classical immersive ideals.  The reason people "get into" movies isn't because they're attempting to eliminate the frame that separates the real-world from the fiction, or references to it, but how the space between frames, between our world and the imaginary world, interact.  SoD pre-supposes that people in the state are unaware of the frame, when in fact we're always aware of it.

Alright then. What I call things that "break suspension of disbelief" aren't actually doing that. They're just so glaringly inconsistent with the expected, or previously established, experience, that they shock me out of any semblance of immersion. Like cutting yourself on a hidden knife in a sink of dishes.

Or, perhaps, the "uncanny valley" phenomenon. Skyrim attempts to create a virtual reality. The closer we come to things that look and act 'real', the larger and more glaring the discrepancies become.

Quote from: Kaldric;494500Alright then. What I call things that "break suspension of disbelief" aren't actually doing that. They're just so glaringly inconsistent with the expected, or previously established, experience, that they shock me out of any semblance of immersion. Like cutting yourself on a hidden knife in a sink of dishes.

I'll agree it can be annoying if it clashes with your expectations.

QuoteOr, perhaps, the "uncanny valley" phenomenon. Skyrim attempts to create a virtual reality. The closer we come to things that look and act 'real', the larger and more glaring the discrepancies become.

That I can agree with as well.  It ties into 'hypermediacy,' which is one of the limitations of digital media.  Those discrepancies are present in almost all media, but combined with the fact that digital media is constantly changing and being replaced by new technology, it makes us always aware that what we're experiencing is artificial.

Although it doesn't help that the expectations of the industry have shifted towards making art more important instead of the gameplay experience, so you get less development time spent on emergent systems in games like Skyrim, or boring railroads like in RAGE.

I think there's an interesting discussion here, especially as it pertains to suspension of disbelief/immersion in tabletop roleplaying games. Probably not super relevant to this thread, though.

Quote from: Peregrin;494470It's "shiny shiny" for the masses because it's too hard?

Uh...ok.

No, because it's the latest 'must have' game. People like it because the gaming media tells them to. Same with all the top AAA titles, no matter what their flaws are or how shit they might be.

The game isn't difficult, but the level scaling breaks the game where it's used. Some mobs are just broken, plain and simple. There was a kahijit bandit leader in a mine that wielded a big warhammer. I could barely tickle him with ANY offensive move/power, yet he needed only to land 2 hits and i was killed - and we aren't talking less than a level 20 character either (can't remember exactly). I was only able to beat him because he glitched and got stuck so i could hit him with arrows (many, many, arrows).

It would also help if the zoom aim perk (archery) worked properly. As it stands it slows you down, as you notch and raise your bow to fire, as well, so there isn't much gain. The whole point is to make you fire quicker, but you don't. I've also had enemies dodge arrows mid flight like jedi.

Quote from: Doom;494493I agree the auto-leveling stuff, while improved from Oblivion, still has a ways to go. Now that I'm level 51, I'm mostly just victory lapping through a few hundred side quests before deciding whether or not to start over.

I hope there's a mod that slows the leveling down to a crawl, I can't control it in this game like in Oblivion.

If there is, it won't be for the 360 version.

It's a shame because the rest of the game is pretty good. It's too big a setting with too much to be perfect, but the level scaling just stands out because the rest of it is so good, and it spoils it.
It's also one of those games where certain builds just fare markedly better than others. Low level arhcery, for example, is hopeless. Similarly a mage, until he can improve his magicka/regen enough, is screwed. I learned this fighting dragons because you have to rely on healing magic as well as your offensive magic. When they attack (which is anytime and always when they land right up until they launch into the air again) the only thing you can do is dual wield heal. It's also difficult to see where you are while the dragon is trying to burn your face off because the effect blurs the screen around you. I find that really annoying.

Quote from: Kaldric;494550I think there's an interesting discussion here, especially as it pertains to suspension of disbelief/immersion in tabletop roleplaying games. Probably not super relevant to this thread, though.

I've hashed it out here before on the TT forum, but I can't for the life of me remember the specific threads -- I'd have to poke around the search function.  Although my own ideas may have changed slightly since then.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;494558No, because it's the latest 'must have' game. People like it because the gaming media tells them to. Same with all the top AAA titles, no matter what their flaws are or how shit they might be.

Actually, I hated Oblivion quite a bit, and grew bored of Beth's take on Fallout after finishing the main quest in each despite lots of unplayed quests -- I went into Skyrim with extreme skepticism.  The fact that I'm still enjoying the game past completing the main quest is a surprise to me.

*edit*

Also, no one likes RAGE, far as I can tell, despite it being by id and making appearances in other pop-media before its launch (like in the show Breaking Bad).

And what Ramrod says is true.  Two-handed is mad DPS, as some MMO players would say.  Your best bet is something that stacks extra damage, especially if it adds ongoing effects.  A normal sword can be weak against tougher opponents, but adding a 20/30 Fire Damage + Ongoing will soften them up nicely.  If your blocking skill is too low to do any real good against their attacks, then dual-wielding enchanted blades might help.

Oh, and anything to soften them up before you get in melee range.  Scrolls are great for this if your magic skills aren't that high.  Dropping a fireball or shock attack on a mob before engaging always helps.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;494558The game isn't difficult, but the level scaling breaks the game where it's used. Some mobs are just broken, plain and simple. There was a kahijit bandit leader in a mine that wielded a big warhammer. I could barely tickle him with ANY offensive move/power, yet he needed only to land 2 hits and i was killed - and we aren't talking less than a level 20 character either (can't remember exactly). I was only able to beat him because he glitched and got stuck so i could hit him with arrows (many, many, arrows).

Dude, anyone wielding a two-handed weapon will wreck your shit no matter how big of a badass you are. I'm on my way to level 58, and playing on Master I still get trounced if anyone with a big-ass sword manages to catch me off guard.

QuoteIt would also help if the zoom aim perk (archery) worked properly. As it stands it slows you down, as you notch and raise your bow to fire, as well, so there isn't much gain. The whole point is to make you fire quicker, but you don't. I've also had enemies dodge arrows mid flight like jedi.

Actually, the point of the timeslow perk is to make it easier to hit targets that are either really fucking far away or moving - try hitting one of those Dwemer spiders without it. Jesus.

It's not the weapon that decides the outcome with these kinds of mobs. He just happened to be wielding a two handed weapon. It could just as easily be magic.

And if it was the weapon, that would suggest an even greater level of unbalance.

Bahahaha what game are you people playing?  "Mobs"?  You mean...like...3 enemies coming at you?  You don't have reservoirs of healing potions bound to the "1" key (whatever for the console players)?  You're not summoning your own shit to fight with?  You're not adventuring with a companion or two?

Psh.  I hear madden 2012 is pretty good, why don't you go give that a try.

"Mobs" stands for "mobiles", not actual mobs as in large groups.

That said, I kinda wish they'd tone down the graphics a bit just so there COULD be a few fights with actual swarms of monsters. I often miss those days of DOOM where there could easily be a dozen monsters attacking you.

Have you played any of the civil war missions?  I've easily had 10-15 Stormcloaks on screen and 5-6 of those rushing me at once.

All that plus my own allies.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;494465I think i'm done with this game.

Well thank Christ. Maybe now we don't have to listen to you whine about the game being too hard when it's your tactics (or lack there of) that really are the let down.

Quote from: IMLegend;494736Well thank Christ. Maybe now we don't have to listen to you whine about the game being too hard when it's your tactics (or lack there of) that really are the let down.

I wasn't aware that you had to read anything I wrote.

Though it's clear that you haven't as it's nothing to do with tactics.

Quote from: Peregrin;494705Have you played any of the civil war missions?  I've easily had 10-15 Stormcloaks on screen and 5-6 of those rushing me at once.

All that plus my own allies.

I did they invasion of whiterun mission and there was some random named citizen stuck in the ground calm as you like. It was like he was buried up to his waste.