Ok, so the 40k universe was never exactly cheery, but back when I played this...
(http://i.imgur.com/FvsH7qj.jpg)
... it wasn't an exercise in absolute nihilism that made me feel cold and empty whenever I brushed into its fluff.
I miss the 40k that was death metal rather than the death metal emphasis it wallows in now. A little more escapism please?
Other thoughts: The space hulk presented in this game was populated by a mix of evil factions. Chaos marines working with orks working with genestealers working with proto-necrons. I kinda dig that, even though it didn't really work with the fluff back then and certainly doesn't now.
Though dark eldar are probably the most depressing thing about modern 40k, I would like to see them in this as baddies. Tau would also be fun as a "heroic" faction. Oh, and squats or demiurge or whatever their niche is/will become.
Playing this with several friends was a blast. Most 40k games are difficult to play as anything other than 1 versus 1. I'd like more options for party night 40k.
I played it on a gaming convention once.
It was delightful.
I also used to own Advanced Space Crusade.
That and the original Space Hulk, with the supplements Deathwing and Genestealer, was what eventually inspired me later to make my own games when I found they were discontinued.
Lovely game. I wound up designing Blood Bowl teams based on the Marines and Chaos, in the version of BB that I cobbled together from 2e's player charts and it's fluff book (Note, I didn't have a rulebook). SC's version of 40k doesn't go into much detail (Little space, game for a younger target audience), but it hits all the high points; the gameplay is pretty simple, but it works fine, there's enough strategy to be interesting, and it's just fun to play.
I'd happily buy a remake of this, and while it would obviously need a few edits to fit in with the modern fluff (I'd be tempted to split the OpFor team into three and give each more detail, than the chaos mishmash currently; the Stealers would remain as equal-opportunity villains), I think it's a shame that it's basically a dead licence.
I'm glad that I nabbed a copy of the remake of Space Hulk, even if it does feel a bit clunky. The bits and pieces (especially the tiles) are hella re-usable in other games.
I've sometimes idly batted about the idea of adapting the rules of Necromunda to run one-off encounters between opposing races that encounter each other in a contested space hulk. Eldar vs orks sounds very appealing.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;796831I've sometimes idly batted about the idea of adapting the rules of Necromunda to run one-off encounters between opposing races that encounter each other in a contested space hulk. Eldar vs orks sounds very appealing.
GorkaMorka mentioned being part of a "skirmish line" of games; I always thought that a game set on a craftworld, with gladiatorial / training contests between warbands of aspect warriors... or better still on Comorragh, between rival warbands... would be fun. You'd lose some variety (Not that Gorkers and Morkers were amazingly different), but there's enough in each race that they could probably carry it.
An Eye of Terror game writes itself, really.
I never got Space Crusade, and its on my list of overpriced goodies to snag off eBay one of these days. We played the heck out of Space Hulk though.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;796474... it wasn't an exercise in absolute nihilism that made me feel cold and empty whenever I brushed into its fluff.
I miss the 40k that was death metal rather than the death metal emphasis it wallows in now. A little more escapism please?
Two questions - why do you see the current 40k as absolute nihilism?
What made the setting more interesting in Space Crusade? Was it the same setting stuff as the original Rogue Trader, or something else?
I agree the mixed space hulk sounds like a fun idea. Chaos + Orks + Tyranids sounds like a nice space dungeon.
Quote from: Spinachcat;797313Two questions - why do you see the current 40k as absolute nihilism?
It was a shift in emphasis. 40k used to have a more prominent goofy and crazy heroic side to temper its hopeless fascist grit. I've got my 2nd ed books here to compare with the later material, and while the basic content of the universe is the same, the tone is just harsher.
An art comparison might help, in a microcosmic sense:
(http://i.imgur.com/rzMiV38.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ApDihKt.jpg)
Notice how the second image is the same basic idea, only taking itself more seriously and, I would argue, missing the point. These are the space orks; they are at least 75% joke right off the bat.
Quote from: Spinachcat;797313What made the setting more interesting in Space Crusade? Was it the same setting stuff as the original Rogue Trader, or something else?
The universe felt more open to interpretation, factions mixed more readily, the action felt like it could mean something or make a difference even within a firmly inhuman context, the tone is less serious and more "Saturday Morning Cartoon covered in chainsaws and cathedrals".
Quote from: Spinachcat;797313... sounds like a nice space dungeon.
That's what this game is, yeah.
Ah...the red period. I don't mind the muted tones over the garish colors of those days and John Blanche's sepia and yellow pallet is nicely gribbly. Not that he's doing much in the current run of things as far as I know. But man I'd like to see Ian Miller's work in 40k again.
I miss all the cool little more or less self contained games. I expect the next big thing will be Battle Fleet Gothic in 28mm. The ships will all be in plastic and cost $10000 but the fans will argue it's just what they've been doing in fantasy these days writ large and it's not that expensive when you divide the cost by the hours of fun you'll have assembling all the thousands of little minarets and gun ports. On second thought it'll also be GW's return to metal with every ship being built around a genuine Games Workshop I-beam. Battle Foam will produce a laser cut semi trailer with small crane to aid in transporting your ship.
I really wanted Space Crusade but it doesn't seem to have made it to Canada. I did get The Mutant Chronicles Siege at the Citadel which is a fantastic game along the same lines and it started me down the dark path to Mutant Chronicles. The new Warzone is great, a bit fussy with all the card play but fun. But what I'd love to see is something along the lines of the board game or Fury of the Clansmen. It's unforgivable that FFG didn't do something like that with the licence instead of the terrible 1/32 game. Which I bought lots of anyhow.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;797437The universe felt more open to interpretation, factions mixed more readily, the action felt like it could mean something or make a difference even within a firmly inhuman context, the tone is less serious and more "Saturday Morning Cartoon covered in chainsaws and cathedrals".
Oh, I agree on this fully and entirely.
It was far more a feeling of "This is guidelines only - anything goes".
You guys should check out the Oldhammer community. Rogue Trader retro stuff is getting pretty big these days. I still want to run that one RT scenario where Tom Baker's Dr Who shows up in the middle of an Imperial City and causes havoc....
Quote from: TristramEvans;797678You guys should check out the Oldhammer community. Rogue Trader retro stuff is getting pretty big these days. I still want to run that one RT scenario where Tom Baker's Dr Who shows up in the middle of an Imperial City and causes havoc....
Will do. I'm on a big Necromunda kick lately, and the idea of using that to bridge back to Rogue Trader is tempting.
I've been Oldhammering for years because Mordheim (my fav) had a strong local fanbase and my other fav, Warmaster was stillborn and forgotten upon release by GW.
I've played a bunch Rogue Trader games over the years, and its a hoot, but damn RAW is odd. Remember you are rolling for random gear for the minis.
If you are playing Necromunda, you're nearly playing Rogue Trader.
Mordheim was my fav too, still have my Nurgle Carnival of Chaos band (I've upgraded my Skaven though, as that unfortunately was during the "monkey-rat" phase). Can't wait for the new videogame (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl8ARu8RWLs) this year.
QuoteCan't wait for the new videogame this year.
I suppose it's too much to hope that this indicates the GW leadership might be toying with the possibility of true skirmish level games as an entry point again?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;798118I suppose it's too much to hope that this indicates the GW leadership might be toying with the possibility of true skirmish level games as an entry point again?
Well,, new leadership at the company, new Space Hulk, hiring a new public relations officer....all gives one hope.
Quote from: TristramEvans;798124Well,, new leadership at the company, new Space Hulk, hiring a new public relations officer....all gives one hope.
I might start hoping
once I hold a decent and new Space Hulk in my hands.
Or something equivalent.
Not before that.
Quote from: Catelf;798144I might start hoping once I hold a decent and new Space Hulk in my hands.
Or something equivalent.
Not before that.
New Space Hulk was at my FLGS today. If I hadnt been laying out hundreds of dollars for Papa Nurgle probably would have grabbed it.
Quote from: TristramEvans;798432New Space Hulk was at my FLGS today. If I hadnt been laying out hundreds of dollars for Papa Nurgle probably would have grabbed it.
It's (Mostly) the same as 2009 Space Hulk.
Get Space Hulk : Death Angel instead! It's much cheaper and is brilliant.
Quote from: TristramEvans;798432New Space Hulk was at my FLGS today. If I hadnt been laying out hundreds of dollars for Papa Nurgle probably would have grabbed it.
Hey Tristram, since you seem to still be involved in the core tabletop games, how do you feel they are doing these days, rules-wise, participation-wise? I'm especially interested in the response to 7th edition 40k over time.
QuoteGet Space Hulk : Death Angel instead! It's much cheaper and is brilliant.
Yes it is, on both counts.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;798477Hey Tristram, since you seem to still be involved in the core tabletop games, how do you feel they are doing these days, rules-wise, participation-wise? I'm especially interested in the response to 7th edition 40k over time.
I'm afraid I dont play 40k, but my impression is its much more popular than fantasy thesedays. I have a small Necron force made up of modified DrWho Cybermen minis that I'd like to try out one of thesedays, but I'm really all about the fantasy myself. I also only play with asmall group of friends, havent really touched the tournament scene and I wont play with strangers at the store because way too many gamers at the local venues dont paint their armies and that hurts immersion for me. Im much more into the painting/converting side of the hobby than any real competitive spirit. I like coming up with unique scenarios and such rather than constant head to head battles.
As for rules, 8th edition fantasy is my favourite iteration of the game since 3rd edition. While I still prefer third just because its much more open and about using your own imagination than being restricted by some codex writer's interpretation of an army, overall 8th is a wonderful streamlining of the game as it appeared in 6th & 7th. I really like that the focus is largely put onto units, so even with the End Times adjustment of 50% Lords and Heroes allowance, units are still much more important and effective than pimped-out characters. Its basically the anti-"HeroHammer". It just feels more like a wargame to me with big blocks of infantry and cavalry/monsters/war machines as support. I primarily play Skaven, which isnt easy on the pocketbook (I will generally field upwards of 150 troops at 1000 pts), but our battles feel like great clashes of armies. Movement,special rules, and magic have all been streamlined quite nicely and generally "make sense" so there isnt a lot of times where a rule seems arbitrary or contradicts my inner imagining of the battle. Unfortunately, the game doesnt scale down very well & at less than 1500 pts its very hard to field a varied or interestingly themed army (the game assumes a 2K "baseline" for the most part). Most of the armies are pretty well balanced, though not quite as well as 3rd, and it remains to be seen how all the armies are going to fair with the End Times rules adjustments.
Overall I may not be the best one to answer your questions, as I do tend to stick with playing with my small group of friends, and I'm not exposed much to the overall scene beyond picking up Warhammer Visions each month and spending a lot of time lurking on Warseer and DakkaDakka (the only forums I actually post in are The UnderEmpire and Oldhammer), and following the videos of Warhammer Joey (who I'd totally wed on the spot if I thought it was an option). Speaking of Oldhammer, I'd very much like to get across the pond for the Oldhammer convention at Foundry one of these years, but my time has been at a premium the last year since starting a new job so not sure if that will happen.
Warmachine seems to be the most popular game in my city, followed by Flames of War, just based on what goes on at the 3 local gaming stores I visit on a regular basis. Of those stores only 2 carry Warhammer, but there is a Games Workshop store as well not far from me (though if possible I prefer to give my money to independent retailers).
They should roll back the iconography to the white, blonde, Übermensch on the cover of Space Crusade and see what happens on the internet... Just for kicks.
But petty bullshit aside, it would be nice if it was less DEATH and more METAL!
(http://i59.tinypic.com/345hq52.jpg)
Those were the days. Womble Marines (sorry Beakies to you non-UK folk), and the ever so slight absurdity of it all.
I do miss the time when GW had a sense of humour about itself.
Quote from: Ladybird;798437Get Space Hulk : Death Angel instead! It's much cheaper and is brilliant.
What's the difference in gameplay with SH vs. SH: DA?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;798477I'm especially interested in the response to 7th edition 40k over time.
I have played 40k at the FLGS a bit, but only the small scale, quick play kill team stuff which has been fun. I haven't been deep, deep into 40k since 5e, but my impression of 7e has been good overall. I've played both IG and Necrons and I've really enjoyed how the Necron kill teams work.
Quote from: Spinachcat;798716What's the difference in gameplay with SH vs. SH: DA?
It's a card game (Well, more a board game on cards), rather than a strict board game; it's also co-op vs the board, rather than competitive.
Each player gets a "fireteam" of marines, which is one storm bolter marine and one special weapon marine; each fireteam also has a unique set of three different actions. The marines march in a formation through various locations in the hulk (A long line, with each marine able to face "left" or "right"; different locations will put different pieces of scenary around the formation); their aim is to wipe out all the genestealers in each location and advance, until they get to the end room where they'll find out their final mission.
Each turn, each marine player picks one action from their hand (Move, Attack, or Support, and depending on the fireteam, each one will have different effects), and then the actions are resolved in turn (Each action card has it's own initiative number). After that, any genestealers around the formation attack (The game has a die numbered 0 - 5; a marine under attack has to roll equal to or higher than the number of genestealers attacking them in order to survive). You draw an event card, which details something bad happening to the squad (Like one of them needing to unjam a weapon, or getting stuck, or more genestealers approaching the squad), where and how many genestealers spawn around the formation, and how they move around. And then it's back to the start, but with the restriction that you can't use the same action card two turns running.
Where it works, is the tenseness. You don't have much space to move, and the terminators aren't very fast when they do it; it's easy to get attacked from behind, and if you're playing a many-player game and your marines are at the wrong end of the formation, you might not even be able to help them. You can't hunker down, because you can't just attack every turn. You don't ever know what's coming next (Event cards are drawn from a random deck, there's a different location deck for each stage of your journey through the hulk, you don't know the objective until the last room), but it never feels random, it always has the feeling of malice. You have to rely on the other players, but there are game rules that restrict communication.
Of course, being a PvBoard game, it is very easy to lose on the first turn, but it's simple to just shuffle everything back together. Some of the endings are easy ("Wipe out remaining Stealers"), some not so much ("Destroy Spore Towers while under attack from Broodlords", with the Broodlords counting as two Genestealers...).
There are also four expansions; one with two more fireteams for the base squad, one with a new mission set (That starts hard and gets easier, rather than the base game's starting easy and getting harder), one with a Tyranid deck to replace the genestealers (Which makes the game much harder, and also includes a few new missions which involve killing boss monsters), and the last expansion contained a squad of Dark Angels, replacing the Blood Angels from the base game (Haven't played with them much, but apparently they're more powerful than the BA squad). The expansions aren't essential, but they add plenty of gameplay so I think they're worth getting.
It's
not Space Hulk, but the important part is that it
feels right, it's got the atmosphere.
Not sure if this is heartening or disheartening. But GameZone. The minis publisher that is doing the now infamous HeroQuest 25th Anniversary board game has made it known that their sights are set next on Space Crusade and last heard they were, or allready had, registered the title as a TM in Spain.
Quote from: Ladybird;798852It's not Space Hulk, but the important part is that it feels right, it's got the atmosphere.
Speaking of, any Mordheim fans out there should check out Ral Partha's new
Blighthaven line. Samurai Dark Elves, among others, make up this 15mm warband-based urban skirmish game. A friend and I are planning to use these to do a 15mm Mordheim (supplemented with some Not-Skaven Ratmen from Pendraken).
Quote from: Ladybird;798852It's not Space Hulk, but the important part is that it feels right, it's got the atmosphere.
Ladybird, thank you so much for that breakdown! I am definitely picking it up.
Quote from: Omega;799671Not sure if this is heartening or disheartening. But GameZone. The minis publisher that is doing the now infamous HeroQuest 25th Anniversary board game has made it known that their sights are set next on Space Crusade and last heard they were, or allready had, registered the title as a TM in Spain.
Would this new version still use the Warhammer IP, or are we looking at a faux-40k with space troopers firing bluster guns at DNA stealers and space trolls? If it's the latter I'll be slightly disappointed, but still inclined to check it out.