I'm curious, One Horse Town - what is it about my actions here or elsewhere that prompts you to reflexively distrust my motives?

What "matters" am I incapable of discussing reasonably, and how have I demonstrated that?

Not "The Forge", but me. Show me my bad faith, because I can't assuage your paranoia if I don't understand it. And right now I totally don't, so help me out.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;404131I'm curious, One Horse Town - what is it about my actions here or elsewhere that prompts you to reflexively distrust my motives?

What "matters" am I incapable of discussing reasonably, and how have I demonstrated that?

Not "The Forge", but me. Show me my bad faith, because I can't assuage your paranoia if I don't understand it. And right now I totally don't, so help me out.

You can't assuage the Forge paranoia around here for the most part.  It's like going to a Tea Party website and claiming to be liberal or a progressive.  It doesn't matter what your point or your ideas are, the label is all that matters to some.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;404133You can't assuage the Forge paranoia around here for the most part.

Not all of us are paranoid. Some of us just like the windmills for the scenery.

Seanchai

Quote from: Silverlion;404111Pretty much that has been my focus as a game designer. The message I create in games may spread beyond me, may touch lives outside my circle of friends, or touch lives long after I am dead. What message that is, in the end for me is "I believe in heroes."

It is not just enough to write a game or story and accept that it creates "mere" entertainment. Entertainment like all other creations we touch carry a message, a moment of learning, and one hopes, understanding.

One needs to ask: Does this game create a positive moment of understanding for those who play it? Or is it just a negative affirmation of our worst qualities?

That's what matters.

I don't think that's the one true way of role-playing, since I love Paranoia and lots of other games that don't fit this mold.  However, it does sound like a fine way to run games.  

Based on my reading, though, what you write about is exactly what I would hope for in running Steal Away Jordan.  I would want the heroism of the PCs to shine through, as the author wrote about intending.  Things will be very difficult for them, and I would hope that their heroism shines all the brighter in the face of adversity.  

Particularly in fantasy gaming, there are two meanings of "heroic" that unfortunately get conflated.  Sometimes, "heroic" means having unusual talents, training, and/or position making one powerful beyond most people.  And sometimes "heroic" means someone whose striving to do good is to be admired.  I suspect you mean the latter, and personally I think it's important to have heroes that are the latter and not the former - i.e. PCs who are heroic without being high-born and/or magically or otherwise unusually talented.

Yeah, for what it is worth, Steal Away Jordan explicitly casts its protagonists in a heroic light, by John's second definition.

Having played it, I'm comfortable saying it is much more than a negative affirmation of our worst qualities, Silverlion.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;404016Peregrin, that's a great post.

Your thoughts on the line between creating and consuming seem key to me. Creating requires vulnerability and risk. Trust is involved. With roleplaying you are asked to have this collaborative experience as a default, and the more extreme the content the more trust you need.

Being responsible for creating certain content is definitely part of it.

But you also mention that you were a tad uncomfortable at times, too.  While the overall experience may have been rewarding for you, I personally try to avoid uncomfortable situations in my leisure/gaming time.

Sure, Peregrin, and the vast majority of gamers would agree with you. That's cool.

Quote from: jhkim;404157Particularly in fantasy gaming, there are two meanings of "heroic" that unfortunately get conflated.  Sometimes, "heroic" means having unusual talents, training, and/or position making one powerful beyond most people. And sometimes "heroic" means someone whose striving to do good is to be admired. I suspect you mean the latter, and personally I think it's important to have heroes that are the latter and not the former - i.e. PCs who are heroic without being high-born and/or magically or otherwise unusually talented.

Yeah, I don't think the latter is in anyway my definition of heroic. That's pretty much the "Classical" heroism, but I prefer the more modern ideal. How does "Steal Away Jordan," create heroism of the latter kind?

People in a desperate and terrible situation acting with courage, dignity and tenacity? That can be all kinds of heroic.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;404131I'm curious, One Horse Town - what is it about my actions here or elsewhere that prompts you to reflexively distrust my motives?

Talk about traditional games as well whilst you're here. That'll be a start.

I think the idea that a game about slaves can ONLY be miserable should be re-examined. There are plenty of stories with slaves as heroes and protagonists that are not merely about wallowing in sorrow.

There's a great series (well, only two book so far) called The Astonishing Life of Octavian Nothing, Traitor to the Nation about a young slave in colonial America, and it is as adventuresome and weird and action-packed as you could possibly want, while still being entirely molded by the fact that the hero is a slave.

Thanks for replying, One Horse Town. I talk about what interests me, which seems like a reasonable thing. I'm not seeing the connection between my personal trustworthiness and the topics I engage with. Perhaps you could clarify.

If people here said "Lamentations of the Flame Princess is a bad game and shouldn't have been written", I'd probably jump in that conversation, too, because I'm playing it with my Monday night group and, like Steal Away Jordan, it is very good.

What about these other questions?

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;404131What "matters" am I incapable of discussing reasonably, and how have I demonstrated that?

Not "The Forge", but me. Show me my bad faith, because I can't assuage your paranoia if I don't understand it. And right now I totally don't, so help me out.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;404133You can't assuage the Forge paranoia around here for the most part.  It's like going to a Tea Party website and claiming to be liberal or a progressive.  It doesn't matter what your point or your ideas are, the label is all that matters to some.

No Forge paranoia. I have read enough forgie/indie/however-you-call-it bullshit to know what they are like. I'm fine with their games, if anybody plays them and have fun, they must be doing something right, and if they don't have fun, I don't give a damn, but whenever I hear about narrative agendas I want to reach for a gun.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;404268What about these other questions?

As someone who has suggested that the storygames/forge community needs to get ENnies judges voted in who "get" your games, your protestations of innocence are odd.

We're gamers. Why should we give a fuck what ordinary people think about gaming?