Quote from: StormBringer;405318I don't think anyone missed it, it's just that no one cares about your whiny bullshit.

I don't think that was for our benifit, mate. It was for the lurking peanut gallery.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;405274Julia Ellingboe's response to the original article that spawned this thread.

Thanks for that link!

I'm sorry I posted that. It didn't add anything to the conversation and your comments didn't need elaboration, Stormbringer, so I apologize.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;405274Julia Ellingboe's response to the original article that spawned this thread.

She sounds very reasonable, and honestly sounds like she didn't design the game to try and provide some sort of way that folks can "connect" with the suffering of slaves and empathise with them somehow. It really sounds like she meant it more as a way to connect to the history (rather than the actual experience). Unfortunately, once the game is out of her hands her intentions are irrelevant. The problem is, based on their statements, other people seem to somehow think they are in some way empathising with the plight of slaves, which really is bullshit. Her goals might have been reasonable, but in the end, just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be. It seems some folks are completely misunderstanding the entire point of the game, and when ya get down to it, what's really important is not why she did it, but how the rest of us will take it and what we'll do with it. Without knowing the details of the actual game, only the subject with which it deals, I still can only conclude it was a bad idea.

I would ask the same questions as "Chauncey DeVega" in the comments section of the article in the OP...

"What would the adventure be? I want my fun to be separate from life and death. That is a personal choice. How do you balance good taste and respect for the lived experiences that are behind such a broad label/descriptor as "slavery" or "genocide" in translating that into a "roleplaying" experience?"

The person on the other side of this discussion says, "The rules let the characters get a tiny inkling of what it's like to live at someone else's mercy, under someone who can end your life or take away anything you make. For comfortable westerners, this is a point that is difficult to grasp from mere passive reception of stories or reports, but, with the means of using audience co-creation to get people to invest themselves, and then feel the logic of the rules in play, you get understanding of the subject by a great short cut." It's with this that I strenuously disagree and is my main objection with the game. There is absolutely no way that sitting around a table in the 21st century eating snacks and rolling dice can impart ANY sense at all of what it was like to be a slave. Not even a little bit. You might learn some facts about slavery and even facts about the lives and daily struggles of slaves, but in no way can one get even "a tiny inkling of what it's like to live at someone else's mercy, under someone who can end your life or take away anything you make". The entire idea is not only ludicrous, it's disrespectful and repellent.

Quote from: One Horse Town;405330I don't think that was for our benifit, mate. It was for the lurking peanut gallery.

Good point.  I don't think they care either.  

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;405338I'm sorry I posted that. It didn't add anything to the conversation and your comments didn't need elaboration, Stormbringer, so I apologize.

I appreciate your concern, but an apology really isn't necessary.  You are more than welcome to think me a complete douchebag.  I'm a big boy, I can take it.  Just make sure you can point out where I was being a douchebag.  

In return, I will also extend my apology for replying in a harsh manner.

QuoteAnother popular and "transformative experience" at this university is called "Faces of Homlessness", where students can go and hang out with the local homeless folks (while they gear up in 'homeless costumery') and return with horrific stories from the field (mostly placing themselves in the center of the experience). These students often come away from these experiences thinking they 'know' or 'can relate' to the developing country woman or the homeless man. That is a concern.

It's all nicely packaged, all very safe. All just for them (which "them"?) On the other hand, one of my students was recently kicked out of a nightclub by the club's owner who had called the police on him for dancing with a white girl (he's African). That got him booted. I'm pretty sure he's not going to need an RPG to figure out what racism feels like. How much of this actually lends to experiential learning and how much is a thinly veiled program - the experience being people who are tickled by the voyeurism they've participated in and who come away with a nice little narrative about how enlightened they've become?

This quote from another of the commentators in the OP article describes my own concerns fairly well.

QuoteWhile it's true that there's always going to be privileged-ass people who don't get it ( http://bankuei.wordpress.com/2009/11/22/figments-of-the-imagination/ ), it's still important for creators of color to make media, games, etc. for folks of color without having to self-silence for fear of what the white folks will do with it - after all, you can't even be a president without people acting foolish these days.

Then again, this quote provides a counterpoint that makes sense as well, to be honest.

Quote from: Sigmund;405359Then again, this quote provides a counterpoint that makes sense as well, to be honest.

And what do we have as the reply for the first comment?

QuoteThat’s why it’s everything wrong with the whole fucking gaming culture, right there.

Good job on proving Pundit right, folks.  Now the idea is spreading that RPGs are all about misery porn these days.

EDIT:  Sorry, I didn't address your actual point there.  As the blogger notes, if this was a jumping off point to actually reading a book, I would be behind it 100%.  It positions itself as wholly self-contained, however, and even when (as the blogger notes) the opportunity to do some genuine research into the topic to gain insight presents itself, it is ignored in favour of posting to the discussion forums.  Which can be reasonably viewed as more like attention-seeking than actual information gathering.

Quote from: StormBringer;405366And what do we have as the reply for the first comment?
Good job on proving Pundit right, folks.  Now the idea is spreading that RPGs are all about misery porn these days.

EDIT:  Sorry, I didn't address your actual point there.  As the blogger notes, if this was a jumping off point to actually reading a book, I would be behind it 100%.  It positions itself as wholly self-contained, however, and even when (as the blogger notes) the opportunity to do some genuine research into the topic to gain insight presents itself, it is ignored in favour of posting to the discussion forums.  Which can be reasonably viewed as more like attention-seeking than actual information gathering.

You're right. Honestly, given the context, that was disgusting.

Quote from: Sigmund;405346She sounds very reasonable, and honestly sounds like she didn't design the game to try and provide some sort of way that folks can "connect" with the suffering of slaves and empathise with them somehow. It really sounds like she meant it more as a way to connect to the history (rather than the actual experience).

I think this conversation (here and elsewhere) is actually having a positive outcome, despite a lot of teeth-gnashing.

Consider! At the beginning of this thread, most of the scorn and opprobrium was about the game itself.

To pick a random assortment of commentary from this thread, the game itself was "pretentious", "complete bullshit", a "bad idea", "in bad taste", generally offensive, and "not designed to be fun".

But we seem to have moved on (somewhat) to a hazier and more diffuse criticism of the social motives of the people who play the game.

For anyone who didn't read the the game designer's post linked upthread, here's a relevant comment about some of the issues being discussed here:

Quote from: Slave narratives to me are not stories where black folks are victims. They’re about survivors and heroes who beat the odds to attain simple pleasures, to stay alive, to protect their families and themselves. Most role playing games are also about heroes and survivors who beat the odds to attain their goals.

Quote from: BWA;405381I think this conversation (here and elsewhere) is actually having a positive outcome, despite a lot of teeth-gnashing.

Consider! At the beginning of this thread, most of the scorn and opprobrium was about the game itself.

To pick a random assortment of commentary from this thread, the game itself was "pretentious", "complete bullshit", a "bad idea", "in bad taste", generally offensive, and "not designed to be fun".

But we seem to have moved on (somewhat) to a hazier and more diffuse criticism of the social motives of the people who play the game.

For anyone who didn't read the the game designer's post linked upthread, here's a relevant comment about some of the issues being discussed here:

In a way you are right, but speaking for myself, I still think the game is a bad idea. I think the author is indulging her vanity by writing it, and failed to consider whether it was a good idea or not. Regardless of any of that, I also think it doesn't sound even a little entertaining. While I agree that a great deal of heroism was displayed during that era, I feel trivializing it by making a game out of it is in poor taste. Ya'all can pile on all the justifications and good intentions ya want, but it's not changing that for me at all. I and anyone else interested in doing so can learn all we need to learn about the subject in other ways, and probably more accurately and completely as well. If the author wanted to tell stories she would perhaps be better served by simply writing a book. I'll stop contributing to her free PR now, thanks for the discussion.

I'm really torn about this kind of thing.

I know gaming in general is a really light-hearted, fun time thing, and most games follow suit, but making an extremely dramatic game (such as Steal Away Jordan) isn't verboten, nor should it be.

I can definitely see why some people take this as blaxplotation or misery tourism, but I think that comes down to the intent behind the creation of the game itself (the author seems sincere), and how the game is actually played.

Sure, most games and gamers I know gravitate toward action-comedy at the table but that's not the only source to draw from. Just like there are all kinds of genres of movies and books, I think there can be all kinds of genres of games.

It's not a game you would play? Sure, totally your call as a gamer. But to say something like this shouldn't exist because it's not your cup of tea. That's going to far in my mind.

I know this is an escapist hobby (no kick backs yet, come on guys), but the push-back on any game that isn't some variant of action-comedy is bordering on the neurotic.

I'm not really into story-games style games, but I can accept that people are and they enjoy them. And to be perfectly honest, I would really kill for some in-depth characterization, high drama, and involved storytelling at this point in my life in the hobby.

Popcorn flicks can only do so much, and popcorns games aren't much better.

You call them popcorn games.

I play games for the purpose of entertainment. I don't play monopoly to learn about the social inequality of life in London. I play it because I enjjoy the systems involved and thinking strategically.

Roleplaying games that are fun for me are those where I can engage in scenes of fantasy and adventure. You can shoehorn themes into those, but to play an ordinary black guy living in ordiarny deep south american during slavery has no appeal to me on any level whatsoever, and I already know slavery is wrong so I don't see the appeal on any level for this game. If others enjoy it, well that's their prerogative. For me it just hasn't got any value at all. It's not what gaming is about for me.

Quote from: Grognard;406323I'm really torn about this kind of thing.

If the rest of your post is anything to go by, "really torn" means "not at all torn", wouldn't you say?

QuoteI know this is an escapist hobby (no kick backs yet, come on guys), but the push-back on any game that isn't some variant of action-comedy is bordering on the neurotic.

Isn't that just hyperbole?

I am new to this site, but already, I'm sure I've seen evidence of gaming other than action-comedy (or "some variant") being perfectly acceptable here.