Things have come full circle, I see.

Some of you guys (StormBringer, Koltar, Grimjack, etc.) are so heavily invested in this idea that SOMEONE THINKS HE IS BETTER THAN ME that there doesn't seem to be any value in trying to discuss specifics with you.

There is a lot of muttering condemnation of what the game's author, or the people who have played it really secretly meant when they said otherwise straightforward, positive things on the internet.

If someone said some shit to you like that, or you read it somewhere, then I can certainly see being irritated. But, as near as I can tell, no one did.

Quote from: BWA;405133Some of you guys (StormBringer, Koltar, Grimjack, etc.) are so heavily invested in this idea that SOMEONE THINKS HE IS BETTER THAN ME that there doesn't seem to be any value in trying to discuss specifics with you.

That is so devoid of merit, it does not require consideration.  As a counter-claim, I would say you are so heavily invested in the idea that THIS GAME CAN'T POSSIBLY HAVE FLAWS that there doesn't seem to be any value in discussing specifics with yout.

QuoteThere is a lot of muttering condemnation of what the game's author, or the people who have played it really secretly meant when they said otherwise straightforward, positive things on the internet.

Then is should be pretty easy to demonstrate what part of this game is 'freighted with danger'.

QuoteIf someone said some shit to you like that, or you read it somewhere, then I can certainly see being irritated. But, as near as I can tell, no one did.

That is because you are wilfully ignoring it, at this point.  Tell me how a game can 'pretty well establish the parameters of slavery'.

Quote from: StormBringer;405111

Quote from: jhkimPerhaps we can agree on principles, and agree to disagree on whether the people or game in question fit. So my thoughts:

1) No one should think they're better than other gamers for playing a particular game - regardless of how tactically deep, or profoundly dramatic, or whatever. It's the same as being pretentious over what books you read or what movies you watch - it's not a real-world accomplishment.

2) No one playing a soldier in an RPG should think they know what being a soldier really feels like, and no one playing a slave in an RPG should think they know what being a slave really feels like.

3) Nevertheless, you can learn things from playing games, watching movies, or reading books. Many wargames will help you learn a little tactics; many historical RPGs will help you learn a little history.

So, if someone plays a Spartacus RPG and says they learned something about Roman history, I think that is a reasonable statement. Similarly, if someone plays Steal Away Jordan and says that they learned something about slavery, that is also a reasonable statement - presuming that it does not imply #1.

You may judge that people who play Steal Away Jordan are necessarily engaging in #1 and #2 - and I don't think I agree, but we could at least agree that these are bad.

We are in complete agreement in regards to your above statements.  I see the people talking about Steal Away Jordan as heavily engaged in #1 and #2.  But we can certainly agree to disagree on that point.

Fair enough.  Let's agree to disagree about that.  

I will reply to some others people about other things - like what I might find interesting or enjoyable about a game where I played a slave, but not about people's claims like #1 or #2.

Quote from: jhkim;405149Fair enough.  Let's agree to disagree about that.  

I will reply to some others people about other things - like what I might find interesting or enjoyable about a game where I played a slave, but not about people's claims like #1 or #2.

Excellent.

For what it is worth, I would like to hear your thoughts about the game in general.

Quote from: BWA;405133Some of you guys (StormBringer, Koltar, Grimjack, etc.) are so heavily invested in this idea that SOMEONE THINKS HE IS BETTER THAN ME that there doesn't seem to be any value in trying to discuss specifics with you.

There is a lot of muttering condemnation of what the game's author, or the people who have played it really secretly meant when they said otherwise straightforward, positive things on the internet.

If someone said some shit to you like that, or you read it somewhere, then I can certainly see being irritated. But, as near as I can tell, no one did.

Where did that come from?  I guess my post was too long because you didn't read it.  If I'm going to condemn something I'm not going mutter it.  I don't know what people who play this game think, that was my question, why would anyone want to play the game more than once and do they play it as a game or to learn about slavery?  I agree with Stormbringer, I would like to hear real play examples because I personally just can see playing this game as being enjoyable and would like to hear from those who do.

Quote from: StormBringer;405157Excellent.

For what it is worth, I would like to hear your thoughts about the game in general.

Well, it is well-written enough for me to be interested in running it - but there is the big caveat that I have not actually played it yet.  Jason's already mentioned the skull die mechanic, which makes the system very lethal.  

After several attempts to run it where no players signed up (even at story gamer gatherings), I'm thinking that the next time I would use the same mechanics to run a Spartacus game about Roman slaves.  Technically this is within the scope of the game, but a lot of the game text is written assuming an American setting.  The tricky part would be adapting the Root Doctor.  I'm sure that there is a Roman-era conjurer that would play roughly that part - but I'd have to think about how it should change to be most appropriate.  

There's a number of dice mechanics on a fairly simple base - in particular the way that you can get luck that adds to your next roll.  I'm a little skeptical about the play value of these, but I'd be interested enough to try it.  

While it's true that things are tough for a character who is a slave, I don't feel that either the Spartacus game or an American slave game has to be miserable for the players.  Yes, you're playing characters in desperate circumstances - and the game shouldn't be light fun - but for me at least, a game can be serious and still be enjoyable.

Quote from: jhkim;405173Well, it is well-written enough for me to be interested in running it - but there is the big caveat that I have not actually played it yet.  Jason's already mentioned the skull die mechanic, which makes the system very lethal.

I had considered a 'gamble' die mechanic like that at one point, only not so lethal.  My original idea involved wagering hit points in combat, but the idea of adding an extra die of some kind with moderate to severe penalties for failure intrigues me as well.

QuoteAfter several attempts to run it where no players signed up (even at story gamer gatherings), I'm thinking that the next time I would use the same mechanics to run a Spartacus game about Roman slaves.  Technically this is within the scope of the game, but a lot of the game text is written assuming an American setting.  The tricky part would be adapting the Root Doctor.  I'm sure that there is a Roman-era conjurer that would play roughly that part - but I'd have to think about how it should change to be most appropriate.  

I assume this Root Doctor is roughly analogous to a 'witch doctor', 'medicine man' or some kind of herbal 'wise woman' from earlier times.  The practice of medicine would have been much the same with Roman surgeons, who were often no more than slaves themselves anyway.

Of course, 'conjurer' strikes me as someone else, in which case any number of priests that worship various gods should work just fine.

QuoteThere's a number of dice mechanics on a fairly simple base - in particular the way that you can get luck that adds to your next roll.  I'm a little skeptical about the play value of these, but I'd be interested enough to try it.  

I am particularly interested in your experiences with this.

QuoteWhile it's true that things are tough for a character who is a slave, I don't feel that either the Spartacus game or an American slave game has to be miserable for the players.  Yes, you're playing characters in desperate circumstances - and the game shouldn't be light fun - but for me at least, a game can be serious and still be enjoyable.

Serious, yes.  Not depressing, though.  

StormBringer, I think you're confusing me with Jason Morningstar. Or maybe someone else, in a different part of the internet. I didn't say any of that stuff.

Quote from: jhkim;405173While it's true that things are tough for a character who is a slave, I don't feel that either the Spartacus game or an American slave game has to be miserable for the players.  Yes, you're playing characters in desperate circumstances - and the game shouldn't be light fun - but for me at least, a game can be serious and still be enjoyable.

Yeah, I can't imagine anyone enjoying a game where the POINT was to go on and on about the misery of your character's life.

There are lots of games that benefit from being treated seriously instead of lightly, and there are lots of games where the subject matter is serious, real-world stuff that should be handled carefully and respectfully. That doesn't mean these games should be denounced (unread and unplayed) simply because they're not GURPS.

I can see why you've had trouble getting a game of this going though. If you're like me, gaming time is at a premium, and it can be hard to find a group who wants to play something they're not sure they will enjoy.

Hey, if you're in the DC area - or anyone else in this thread - let me know and we'll get a game going.

Quote from: jhkim;405173After several attempts to run it where no players signed up (even at story gamer gatherings), I'm thinking that the next time I would use the same mechanics to run a Spartacus game about Roman slaves.

Watch Something Funny Happened on the Way to the Forum and see if that makes you think twice about using Spartacus.

QuoteTechnically this is within the scope of the game, but a lot of the game text is written assuming an American setting.  The tricky part would be adapting the Root Doctor.  I'm sure that there is a Roman-era conjurer that would play roughly that part - but I'd have to think about how it should change to be most appropriate.

I don't know how Root Doctor is presented in the game, but on a guess, I'd leave it out entirely. It sounds like a product of a uniquely American opposition between slave-spirituality and white Christian "science". If it's impossible to leave out, you should still question whether the mechanic embodies an opposition that's simply inappropriate, and see if it can be modified in some way. The Romans had many Greek slaves, for example, for whom the dynamic would be completely off; I doubt that even peoples from other cultures would have had that dynamic.

Another important difference that might or might not be a factor was that a lot of Roman slaves could look forward to becoming freedmen by legal means (manumission), after which their children would be fully free. While this also happened in America, I suspect that prospects varied depending on the exact time period--possibly getting worse the further into the 19th century you go.

Quote from: BWA;405181StormBringer, I think you're confusing me with Jason Morningstar. Or maybe someone else, in a different part of the internet. I didn't say any of that stuff.

No, but you are claiming it was never said to begin with, which is wilful ignorance or intentional misrepresentation.  Either way, you didn't enter this conversation in good faith, so your further claim at being slighted is obviously a tactic.  You virtually demand an explanation, but refuse to address it when given.  I have not mistaken you for anyone, but you are cut from the same proselytising cloth.

Return to the Forge, or Storygames, or wherever you wandered over from and report your 'victory' as you planned from the start.  But don't expect anything like honest engagement from this quarter.  In fact, I wouldn't get my hopes up for polite engagement, if I were you.

Julia Ellingboe's response to the original article that spawned this thread.

Quote from: StormBringer;405221I have not mistaken you for anyone, but you are cut from the same proselytising cloth...Return to the Forge, or Storygames, or wherever you wandered over from and report your 'victory' as you planned from the start.  But don't expect anything like honest engagement from this quarter.  In fact, I wouldn't get my hopes up for polite engagement, if I were you.

Nothing to add, just calling out the persecutory delusion in case anybody missed it.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;405281Nothing to add, just calling out the persecutory delusion in case anybody missed it.

I don't think anyone missed it, it's just that no one cares about your whiny bullshit.