Quote from: jhkim;404738Can you give a reason why this is relevant?  

Why would it be OK for me to write about a character who is a slave, and not OK for me to role-play a slave?

How would you know what you were doing? If your goal is to just play what your idea of a slave is like, without seeking to gain some insight into what black slaves in America felt like, then you can do that with any game. If, however, you go into this game with the expectation that the game is going to somehow grant you insight into how a black slave must have felt, then you're wrong. When you read a book, you're (hopefully) reading a story written by someone who knows what they are talking about, having done extensive research on the topic they're writing about. That way you're at least getting accurate flavor and information, even if you can't truly know what it was really like. You can feel some sort of empathy (that once again is hopefully based on non-fictional information). Unless every player of the game is going to engage in the same level of research and commitment, how could the two activities possibly approach any kind of equivalency? If you were to do that level of research, what would you need the game for?

Quote from: Sigmund;404743How would you know what you were doing? If your goal is to just play what your idea of a slave is like, without seeking to gain some insight into what black slaves in America felt like, then you can do that with any game. If, however, you go into this game with the expectation that the game is going to somehow grant you insight into how a black slave must have felt, then you're wrong. When you read a book, you're (hopefully) reading a story written by someone who knows what they are talking about, having done extensive research on the topic they're writing about. That way you're at least getting accurate flavor and information, even if you can't truly know what it was really like. You can feel some sort of empathy (that once again is hopefully based on non-fictional information). Unless every player of the game is going to engage in the same level of research and commitment, how could the two activities possibly approach any kind of equivalency? If you were to do that level of research, what would you need the game for?

Exactly.  The game is used as some sort of 'shortcut' to the colonial black experience of being a slave, then pointed to as authentic research or something.

It's preposterous.  Even moreso is the inability of people to see that RPGs and literature are different media.

Quote from: StormBringer;404746It's preposterous.  Even moreso is the inability of people to see that RPGs and literature are different media.

It's a common defence of these types of games. Next up someone will say that this stuff can happen in d&d.

Wait a minute!...

It's a double for John.

Quote from: StormBringer;404722Also, like all literature, the graphic novel is telling a story, not asking the reader to pretend they are a slave.

This, is the point you should respond to, John.
You know.
 The part you actually didn't quote.

Quote from: Benoist;404751This, is the point you should respond to, John.
You know.
 The part you actually didn't quote.

WTF?  I did quote that.  

http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=404736&postcount=146

Edit to add:  I posted quickly because this pissed me off.  It feels like you're attacking me personally over this.  I'll give a longer response in a bit after I cool off.

Heh. My mistake. I actually had not see that post.

"As for the pretending as opposed to reading, I understand that you consider it important, but lacking a coherent argument, I don't agree. For example, a bunch of 5th graders wrote and performed a play about slavery - which I take it you regard as offensive."

OK. That's weak sauce, though.

Quote from: jhkim;404738Can you give a reason why this is relevant?

None that I haven't given several times before, some even in this thread. You're welcome to ponder the answer for yourself, since I'm uninterested in "debating" this issue.

QuoteWhy would it be OK for me to write about a character who is a slave, and not OK for me to role-play a slave?

Roleplaying a slave is fine by me. Roleplaying in a context designed to elicit a particular reaction from the participant, followed by self-accolades for working yourself into that emotional state, is pretentious self-indulgence, though, and that is offensive when it's used in conjunction with the exploitation of human tragedy.

I think I went into this before, most likely in the thread "When is a Game Misery Tourism?"

By the way, doesn't this thread belong where all the other indie game threads are put? If this one stays here, then the policy of shunting them off into some other forum ought to be re-examined; it doesn't seem fair to allow only critical threads to stay in the main forum.

Quote from: One Horse Town;404728They aren't "edgy", they're not "hip", they aren't "groundbreaking" it's same shit, different day, except with added tentacle rape and misery.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;404769Roleplaying in a context designed to elicit a particular reaction from the participant, followed by self-accolades for working yourself into that emotional state, is pretentious self-indulgence, though, and that is offensive when it's used in conjunction with the exploitation of human tragedy.

Many posters in this thread are objecting strongly to this game, on many different, shifting grounds.

But a theme that keeps coming up - in this thread and many many more - is  this idea that someone, somewhere is being "pretentious".

Maybe someone is! Somewhere. But as near as I can tell, no one in this thread, or any AP I've read about this game, has claimed that playing this game is "hip", or that they are being "edgy" by doing so. No one in this thread, or any AP I've read about this game, has claimed that they are deserving of "accolades" for playing it.*

I know this is the internet, and inventing something purely in order to enjoy the sensation of outrage that it brings, is the thing. We all enjoy that. But please be aware that some of you are objecting to the mere *existence* of a unique, interesting game because of things that YOU MADE UP.

* And geez, even if they were, that wouldn't have anything to do with the game itself.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;404777By the way, doesn't this thread belong where all the other indie game threads are put? If this one stays here, then the policy of shunting them off into some other forum ought to be re-examined; it doesn't seem fair to allow only critical threads to stay in the main forum.

I don't think "all other indie games" is right, Elliot, unless you are using indie in the Forge sense of the word.

I have thought about it, but didn't as i've been quite active in the thread and i seem to be all alone (sigh!).

If any of the other mods/admins choose to do so, then great. However, i'm not doing it.

Quote from: BWA;404778No one in this thread, or any AP I've read about this game, has claimed that they are deserving of "accolades" for playing it.*

Didn't you read Jason's post earlier about how he got an insight into the slave's condition through playing the game?

Sounds like self-accolade to me.

Quote from: BWA;404778Maybe someone is! Somewhere. But as near as I can tell, no one in this thread, or any AP I've read about this game, has claimed that playing this game is "hip", or that they are being "edgy" by doing so. No one in this thread, or any AP I've read about this game, has claimed that they are deserving of "accolades" for playing it.*

Yes, they are.  By going public with the play reports and such, they are inviting comment.  Typically, people don't do that seeking negative comments.  Factor in how the proponents keep pushing how 'cool' the game is, and how much they 'learned' from the 'experience of being a slave', and you have a potent concoction: public displays of pretension.  The very foundational principle is that they are so post-modern, they alone are capable of delivering and consuming this kind of 'edgy' content without complaint, while the rest of the 'prudes' are out there wallowing in their seriously un-hip morality.

I assume you will now ask for specific quotes.  There aren't any, naturally, but that is because the rest of us already know the rhetoric, and how it is couched in posts that sound reasonable on the surface.  Which, I am guess, you are already aware of; you likely wouldn't present a challenge for actual quotes if you weren't.

Quote from: One Horse Town;404779If any of the other mods/admins choose to do so, then great. However, i'm not doing it.

I don't have a problem if someone decides to move it.

Quote from: One Horse Town;404779I don't think "all other indie games" is right, Elliot, unless you are using indie in the Forge sense of the word.

I have thought about it, but didn't as i've been quite active in the thread and i seem to be all alone (sigh!).

If any of the other mods/admins choose to do so, then great. However, i'm not doing it.

Yes, I meant in the Forge sense of the word. The sense under which certain threads have been moved into Other Games.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;404783Yes, I meant in the Forge sense of the word. The sense under which certain threads have been moved into Other Games.

Don't shoot the messenger! :pundit: