Has anyone else noticed a general trend in gaming of moving back toward older editions of games? I ran across this Oldhammer movement in the Warhammer community recently where they basically play the game as it was in its first two editions. It struck me that some of reasoning was very similar to that of the OSR in rpgs, namely that they were essentially moving back to a "lighter" play style in which official army lists aren't needed and things are adjudicated by a referee instead of bickering over rules. There also seems to be an emphasis on playing cool homebrew scenarios instead of just what is in the core rulebook.
I have also heard a great deal of bitching in certain circles of the local Magic community that the game "just ain't right" anymore, though I have seen no real conscious consensus as to what that means.
Is there some sort of general trend developing here? Or am I just bored as hell and reading too much into things?
I hadn't really noticed it but I'm not surprised. Games get more complex and messy as they age and evolve. Sometimes I think that's why there's a market for new games at all.
Yeah it does seem like many times there is a great game that gets further fucked up with every new edition. It seems like nothing ever really gets fixed you just end up with a new set of inconsistencies in place of the old ones. I am not very familiar with the older Warhammer rules but my understanding is that there were less of them and the game was not built around using only Games Workshop miniatures.
I wonder if any of it has to do with the companies that produce games growing into more professional business models that seem to get out of touch with the actual hobbies? I also wonder if the drive to justify selling new rules books plays a role into the general bloat.
I'm putting together a WoW guild that's focusing on doing older PvE content, mainly Classic, BC and WotLK dungeons. Does that count?
It's not table top, but it is an old school movement in a game so... sure why not?
Ogre (http://sjgames.com/ogre/)
Is there really much reason to release new editions of things like RPGs anyway? It's not like computer games where you get better graphics and a smarter AI, the reasons for new editions are more commercially driven rather than customer driven. I mean if there are errata or glaring system holes, fix those, but otherwise build out settings instead of new systems.
It's the vinyl-cassette tape-CD-MP3 business model except you often don't get the same thing only better, you get something very similar with a whole bunch of stuff tacked on to make it look different.
The industry has every reason in the world to release new editions.
The real questions here are:
1. Does the new edition actually needs to be a new game? CoC has been printing the same widely acclaimed game for 6 editions now. They seem intent on fiddling with the engine for 7th, and I'm curious to see what they'll do and how it's going to turn out for them.
2. Do you want a new edition? Do you, as a gamer, feel that the new edition is an improvement over whatever it is that you're playing now?
I think that's all there is to it, really.
It doesn't quite fit the OP, but there is a "flourishing", if you will, of BRP derived games.
Quote from: The Butcher;651906The industry has every reason in the world to release new editions.
The real questions here are:
1. Does the new edition actually needs to be a new game? CoC has been printing the same widely acclaimed game for 6 editions now. They seem intent on fiddling with the engine for 7th, and I'm curious to see what they'll do and how it's going to turn out for them.
2. Do you want a new edition? Do you, as a gamer, feel that the new edition is an improvement over whatever it is that you're playing now?
I think that's all there is to it, really.
I can agree with this, I think as businesses gaming companies need new editions to a large degree. I think the problem is the mindset that a new edition has to be a major overhaul of the game. I prefer to see better layouts, integrated errata, and addressing of minor issues. Honestly RPGs tend to have shitty layouts, I would rather see this kind of thing fixes in a new edition. I think Troll Lord Games has it right in this respect, each new edition is just an effort to get cleaner more efficient layouts with some minor rules updates, though their level of success may vary in this regard.
Last time I played Monopoly, we used an actual shoe, an actual iron, and an actual Scottie as playing pieces.
The battleship was deemed impractical, however.
I see a little bit of this in tabletop minis gaming. There's a presence (I don't think it's strong enough to call it a "movement") online of bloggers and hobbyists who prefer older editions of Games Worshop properties- Rogue Trader, 40k 2nd edition, earlier versions of Warhammer (Oldhammer), Man of War, Space Fleet, etc. It's pretty easy to find battle reports of folks playing these games, but it doesn't seem to be particularly widespread, nor has it generated self-published and small press redesigns of games like we've seen from the old school RPG crowd.
Quote from: Arkansan;651838I am not very familiar with the older Warhammer rules but my understanding is that there were less of them and the game was not built around using only Games Workshop miniatures.
I wonder if any of it has to do with the companies that produce games growing into more professional business models that seem to get out of touch with the actual hobbies? I also wonder if the drive to justify selling new rules books plays a role into the general bloat.
GW started to lose contacts with their roots already in late 90's, when they decided to "streamline" their armies, and removed the Squats and the Beastmen from 40K .... not to mention their discontiuation of their Epic line.
Sure, streamlining was something interesting to try out, but it was also obvious that they were focussing on the "big sellers" ...
Their own magazine, White Dwarf, used to include articles on non-GW-things, and they practically endorsed using whatever was appropriate for their games.
Today ... They are just a moneyhungry company that just happens to make great miniatures (since Citadel Miniatures was absorbed into GW).
Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;651961I see a little bit of this in tabletop minis gaming. There's a presence (I don't think it's strong enough to call it a "movement") online of bloggers and hobbyists who prefer older editions of Games Worshop properties- Rogue Trader, 40k 2nd edition, earlier versions of Warhammer (Oldhammer), Man of War, Space Fleet, etc. It's pretty easy to find battle reports of folks playing these games, but it doesn't seem to be particularly widespread, nor has it generated self-published and small press redesigns of games like we've seen from the old school RPG crowd.
I give you 3 reasons for the bolded part:
* GW still make great minis, no doubt, and that has kept a lot faithful.
* GW is menacingly highstrung about what they deem as their IP ... so people can't make all-too-obvious copies of GW-Games, without risking a C&D.
* D&D and basic roleplay has been around longer than GW.
Just give them time, and they'll find ways to get around GW's "Intellectual property"-claims, as well as getting their own works out.
I've played with Oldhammer guys because I love Mordheim. I prefer small squad skirmish so stuff like Mordheim and Lunchhammer (500 point WFB) are more my style.
I know guys at cons who still run awesome 40k Epic events and they always get a bunch of players. Nobody is showing up for the rules however, just the coolness of the mass battle.
Sadly, Warmaster, the 10mm Warhammer Fantasy game never got an audience. The rules were very good. More fun than WFB for me.
I've played a few Rogue Trader games for nostalgia, but I prefer the current rules in 40k. Sure I miss the Squat and Ogryns, but overall 40k gets better with each edition (with some bumps in the road).
I would love to play some Oldhammer type games. I keep trying to get into Warhammer and the price of the freaking miniatures and books just puts me off after a bit. I do wonder just how much the presence of the OGL was needed to prime the OSR movement? I don't see Oldhammer ever really taking off, in part because of the lack of clones, which I think given Games Workshop's testy nature over their IP are not likely to happen. It does seem like GW really likes to shit on their better work, I hear nothing but good things about Mordheim, Epic, and the like.
Quote from: Catelf;651966GW started to lose contacts with their roots already in late 90's, when they decided to "streamline" their armies, and removed the Squats and the Beastmen from 40K .... not to mention their discontiuation of their Epic line.
Sure, streamlining was something interesting to try out, but it was also obvious that they were focussing on the "big sellers" ...
Their own magazine, White Dwarf, used to include articles on non-GW-things, and they practically endorsed using whatever was appropriate for their games.
Today ... They are just a moneyhungry company that just happens to make great miniatures (since Citadel Miniatures was absorbed into GW).
No it goes right back to the gw / citadel merger.
Before that white dwarf was a generic game mag with intersting ideas. GW produced some great board games, rogue trooper, block mania, judge dredd, chainsaw warrior, fury of dracula and had kicked off warhammer fantasy role play.
They had a nice 2000ad inspired programme and that cynical humour.
Then with the merger every game needed collectable minis, gw stores started just selling gw products which became citdel minis and warhammer books all the board games were discontinued and they were no longer a place for young designers to take new game ideas.
If you want to play some fantasy battles just create your own rules or download something from the web.
The only reason to play official rules is if you need to find players at at a local club where you don't know anyone.
I don't know why you would want to play an old version of a game when you can just create your own rules or grab some free ones.
Quote from: Arkansan;651974I would love to play some Oldhammer type games. I keep trying to get into Warhammer and the price of the freaking miniatures and books just puts me off after a bit.
Minis wargaming is expensive. But you can minimize costs via eBay. Lots of people buy stuff, half paint them and drop out of the hobby. You can usually get their stuff for half price or much less if you know how to hunt eBay.
Back when I played a lot, I would buy in bulk, then sell back stuff I didn't want and my final price was often a tenth of retail.
Old edition Warhammer books are usually pretty cheap. You can't use them in any tourney play at cons or game stores, so they don't have much value beyond the very limited Oldhammer market.
Thanks for the tips, I had noticed that some real deals can be had on EBay if you are patient. Miniature war gaming does seem to be rather expensive in general. Right now I am doing historical war gaming in 1/72 scale, those things are super cheap, around ten bucks for an average of 40 minis with some companies doing really good sculpts.
I personally am not interested in the tournament scene, I have been looking into doing most of my war gaming solo. I like the Warhammer fluff to a large degree and think the rules are okay, so at this point I am really looking into just doing up army lists for a different rule set (Rally Round the King which is designed with solo gaming in mind) and using miniatures from other companies. There are some decent fantasy sets out there that are cheaper, I hope to see more released in plastic as well.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;651960Last time I played Monopoly, we used an actual shoe, an actual iron, and an actual Scottie as playing pieces.
The battleship was deemed impractical, however.
Heh! That Scottie must have been bloody well trained as well
Quote from: soviet;652257Heh! That Scottie must have been bloody well trained as well
Unfortunately, he kept chewing on the shoe, which resulted in constantly trying to remember where that player's token was supposed to be.
Quote from: Arkansan;651838Yeah it does seem like many times there is a great game that gets further fucked up with every new edition. It seems like nothing ever really gets fixed you just end up with a new set of inconsistencies in place of the old ones
I also wonder if the drive to justify selling new rules books plays a role into the general bloat.
I've had this basic problem with Star Fleet Battles. When I first discoverd the game in the 1980's SFB was a microgame and then a "Designer's Edition" game. Not too complex. Over time, SFB evolved into an ugly monster with three 3-ring binders full of rules and additional expansion material coming out all the time.
A few years ago I dumped it all and went back to the microgame version. I'm a lot happier with it.
Quote from: finarvyn;653205I've had this basic problem with Star Fleet Battles. When I first discoverd the game in the 1980's SFB was a microgame and then a "Designer's Edition" game. Not too complex. Over time, SFB evolved into an ugly monster with three 3-ring binders full of rules and additional expansion material coming out all the time.
A few years ago I dumped it all and went back to the microgame version. I'm a lot happier with it.
I played a lot of crazy Star Fleet Battles years ago; actual fleets of ships battling it out, and campaign games to rule the galaxy.
I wonder if I could even handle it now, so many years later.
Might be too much crunch for my current tastes.
But I would not mind at all taking a Killerhawk for a spin :)
Quote from: finarvyn;653205A few years ago I dumped it all and went back to the microgame version. I'm a lot happier with it.
My crew was jonesing for some SFB a few years ago and we did one session. It was slow agony so I sold off my SFB stuff and bought a copy of StarFire off eBay and that gave us a lot more fun.
A lot of what attracts the OSR crowd also are the free games. The hope is that being free will get GMs more players at their tables and re-interested in RPGs again.
Quote from: Bill;653248I played a lot of crazy Star Fleet Battles years ago; actual fleets of ships battling it out, and campaign games to rule the galaxy.
I wonder if I could even handle it now, so many years later.
Might be too much crunch for my current tastes.
But I would not mind at all taking a Killerhawk for a spin :)
I used to play SFB back in the day, too. A few days ago I broke down and cracked open my Dragon Pass boardgame...can't believe I used to play this as kid/teenager, lawdy the rules.
Fun at the time, but nowadays I let the computer handle the rules crunch...been playing lots of Titans of Steel (a sweet knockoff of battletech, turn-based like it's supposed to be).
To me, in answer to your original question, it is called OSR, Old School Renaissance, and it is gaining momentum across every place, forum, and RPG sale site that I can see. It is good to talk about what it means, and what the future of gaming could look like. Forget the "bling", the shiny character accoutrements, remember the imagination, and the ability to improvise.
Hi Again, Right. It is not a movement. OSR is an awareness.