Quote from: Settembrini;420091Q still unanswered:
BWA, why do you love Kitsch so much?

That's not a real question. You don't want to learn something, you just want to be combative. It's you making a farting noise and asking why I love farts so much, like a ten-year-old.

Quote from: BWA;420274That's not a real question. You don't want to learn something, you just want to be combative. It's you making a farting noise and asking why I love farts so much, like a ten-year-old.

And you DO want to learn something?! Dude, its apparent from this thread that you don't even want to teach something, much less learn.  Here the OP goes ahead and says "ok, let's give you what you want, and accept all of the initial statements we rejected in the other thread, for the sake of investigation; now that we theoreticallly accept your premises, what next?", and YOU HAD NOTHING ELSE TO SAY.  

That means that there was never any real point to begin with. Your whole previous "narrative authority" thread existed for the exclusive reason of trying to get people to admit that there's narrative authority. You just wanted to try to get your cheap little shot across.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;420372Your whole previous "narrative authority" thread existed for the exclusive reason of trying to get people to admit that there's narrative authority. You just wanted to try to get your cheap little shot across.

Well, let's examine that. It's true that I didn't have some sort of grand lesson I wanted to share. I'm no game theorist, and who on this forum would want to hear that sort of thing anyway?

The earlier thread was prompted by John Morrow's comment that he didn't want narrative authority in his games, and my contention that, if he's playing RPGs, he's got narrative authority, whether he likes the idea or not.

Now, to me, this is a major point. It's something that sets RPGs apart from all other games, and, in my opinion, it's what we love about RPGs. It's neither "cheap" not "little".

CRKrueger was gracious enough to start *this* thread, stipulating the fact of narrative authority's existence. The question is, okay, we'll agree with you for the sake of argument ... now what?

But the important part, to me, was the discussion itself about narrative authority. The "now what" follow-up was my comment that this is what MAKES an RPG an RPG (or part of it, anyway).

Truth be told, I didn't even see this thread until it had already taken on a life of its own. Nor did I start it. So you can't rationally accuse me of trickery because of this thread's existence, nor can you rationally accuse me of "cheap shots" simply because I didn't have a great secret to divulge.

I found the ensuing discussion, despite giant piles of horseshit everywhere (like all that embarassing nonsense about "alpha males"), to be interesting. And, since it's gone on for 50+ pages, it appears that other people did too, yourself included.

Quote from: BWA;420407But the important part, to me, was the discussion itself about narrative authority. The "now what" follow-up was my comment that this is what MAKES an RPG an RPG (or part of it, anyway).

So really, the point of the discussion really was what we discussed in the previous thread: John et al. arguing against the "authority" part of the equation, me et al. arguing against the "narrative" part. In the end, we really were arguing your point, because there was nothing beyond the statement: "if you play a RPG, there is narrative authority."

So, no. As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as "narrative authority" in a RPG. See the previous thread(s).

A question for folks who reject players input without GM filtering (see how I'm good at tip-toeing around loaded words?) :

Would it still be an issue for a goofy game where verisimilitude is hardly an issue? Say a game about toons or some other whacko setting?

Quote from: boulet;420417Would it still be an issue for a goofy game where verisimilitude is hardly an issue? Say a game about toons or some other whacko setting?

No, it wouldn't be an issue. We'd just be playing another type of game. A story game.

Quote from: Benoist;420419No, it wouldn't be an issue. We'd just be playing another type of game. A story game.

I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. I wouldn't consider Toon a storygame, nor TFOS, Paranoia, T&T nor Ghostbusters, though these are all "goofy games" with "wacko" settings. I don't think a comedy or absurdist theme makes an RPG a storygame.

Quote from: TristramEvans;420425I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. I wouldn't consider Toon a storygame, nor TFOS, Paranoia, T&T nor Ghostbusters, though these are all "goofy games" with "wacko" settings. I don't think a comedy or absurdist theme makes an RPG a storygame.

That's not what I'm saying. We wouldn't play a story game because it's Toon or Paranoia, we would play a story game because player input wouldn't be filtered by the GM and there would be a "shared narrative."

Which in itself isn't an issue, if it's entertaining (it's entertaining to play something like this for me for about two hours maybe, but it becomes really boring really fast). But wouldn't be a role playing game.

Am I saying any product intended as a role playing game can be played as "something else"? Yes, I am. Whether it's a miniatures tactical wargame, a story game or what not, there are many ways in which you can take any published game and play it as "something else."

Quote from: Benoist;420414So really, the point of the discussion really was what we discussed in the previous thread: John et al. arguing against the "authority" part of the equation, me et al. arguing against the "narrative" part. In the end, we really were arguing your point, because there was nothing beyond the statement: "if you play a RPG, there is narrative authority."

That's a fair summation, I guess. I would have liked to discuss the impact of that on different kinds of games, and why people prefer certain things over others, but the 50+ page battle over the very premise clearly renders such things moot.

Quote from: Benoist;420414So, no. As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as "narrative authority" in a RPG. See the previous thread(s).

Agree to disagree. And, really, there's no "winning" this kind of internet argument, just a hope that the process itself will be enlightening in some small way, or at least entertaining.

Although ... I do still think that there is "narrative authority" at most gaming tables, regardless of the game, but I lack the language to make that case convincingly. (And, of course, there is the possibility that I am wrong, and we are doing totally different things with our time, and we would hate one another's D&D games.)

Quote from: boulet;420417A question for folks who reject players input without GM filtering (see how I'm good at tip-toeing around loaded words?) :

While there was a lot of people getting their knickers all bunched up over my choice of language early on in the other thread, I think eventually the terminology was accepted as representing roughly what I meant. Of course, if I'd realized there would be such resistance to the terms, I would have said "player input without GM filtering". (Or Bill White's suggestion of "player agency").

Although I think those phrases concede the idea that narrative authority is a tool or technique of some RPGs rather than a fundamental aspect of (almost) all of them, but it's hard to say for sure.

Quote from: Benoist;420426That's not what I'm saying. We wouldn't play a story game because it's Toon or Paranoia, we would play a story game because player input wouldn't be filtered by the GM and there would be a "shared narrative."

Ah ok, that's my viewpoint on the matter as well.

Quote from: BWA;420444While there was a lot of people getting their knickers all bunched up over my choice of language early on in the other thread, I think eventually the terminology was accepted as representing roughly what I meant. Of course, if I'd realized there would be such resistance to the terms, I would have said "player input without GM filtering". (Or Bill White's suggestion of "player agency").

Although I think those phrases concede the idea that narrative authority is a tool or technique of some RPGs rather than a fundamental aspect of (almost) all of them, but it's hard to say for sure.

BWA, I don't want to set off another argument over terminology, but in considering what's the actual question being addressed, do you think "authority over resolution" (whether task resolution, conflict resolution, etc.) describes what you're asking about?

Quote from: BWA;420443Agree to disagree. And, really, there's no "winning" this kind of internet argument, just a hope that the process itself will be enlightening in some small way, or at least entertaining.

*nod* It was more frustrating than entertaining to me, but I do think I came to understand some things better because of that discussion. So that's one good thing that happened out of it, I guess.

Quote from: BWA;420443Although ... I do still think that there is "narrative authority" at most gaming tables, regardless of the game, but I lack the language to make that case convincingly. (And, of course, there is the possibility that I am wrong, and we are doing totally different things with our time, and we would hate one another's D&D games.)

You are obviously wrong. We both know that. LOL

Quote from: BWA;420443Although ... I do still think that there is "narrative authority" at most gaming tables, regardless of the game, but I lack the language to make that case convincingly. (And, of course, there is the possibility that I am wrong, and we are doing totally different things with our time, and we would hate one another's D&D games.)

If you cannot make your case convincingly, then either you are inept at arguement or there is a high probability that you are wrong.

Quote from: Cole;420466BWA, I don't want to set off another argument over terminology, but in considering what's the actual question being addressed, do you think "authority over resolution" (whether task resolution, conflict resolution, etc.) describes what you're asking about?

Good question! But I would say definitely not. Resolution is a specific thing, right? Where the RULES of the game live, usually. At least the important ones.

I'm talking about little stuff, the normal stuff of role-playing. Like, you're the GM and you say "The troll king bellows before the city gates, and the clashes his axe against his shield. The soldiers around you tremble.", and then you pause and look at us, and I say "I tell them to fear not, for victory is surely at hand." I had the authority to say that at the table, to narrate what my character is doing in response to the GM's information.

But no point in re-hashing it, I guess.

Quote from: jeff37923;420487If you cannot make your case convincingly, then either you are inept at arguement or there is a high probability that you are wrong.

Yes, those are two possibilities. There are other possibilities too.