Quote from: James Gillen;795479One side is saying "You're a slut."  The other side says "You're a REALLY, REALLY bad person for thinking that."  And it's easy to see how the one side has been able to push more, because the kind of man who would tell complete strangers "You're a slut" is not the kind of man who would really care if the other person tells him "You're a really, really bad person for thinking that."

Very true. I'd imagine some hardcore misogynists do feel bad (perhaps on a subconscious level) when they're called out, although most appear not to. But those types of hardcore misogynists wouldn't be interested in feminist media criticism anyway. Feminist media critics are generally aiming their work at "reasonable guys with some misogynistic streaks"; the kind of guy that genuinely wants to be a good person. Who feels a little dirty watching porn or getting freaky with pixelbabes, but does it anyway.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;795473Here's a mission for you: post a recent feminist call for censorship in any media besides pornography.

(Caveat: I'm going to assume you mean "SJW" brand of social justice, rather than garden variety equality feminism.)

ConsultantGate. (D&D 5e)

They made up false allegations about Pundit and Zak S., tried pushing it into the public sphere, and wanted people to not buy D&D 5th Edition for employing "sexist, racist, homophobes". (if we make up enough slurs, maybe one of them will stick!)

Dude, seriously, keep up. You're on the website of one of the guys they tried to libel.

EDIT: I'm also pretty sure that when people like Alex Lifschitz destroys a copy of GTA5, as a symbol of the oppression of AAA developers, he's not a fan of people buying the game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51McaZrra7w

Quote from: Novastar;795484They made up false allegations about Pundit and Zak S., tried pushing it into the public sphere, and wanted people to not buy D&D 5th Edition for employing "sexist, racist, homophobes". (if we make up enough slurs, maybe one of them will stick!)

That's not censorship, it's a boycott attempt. Difference.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;795483Very true. I'd imagine some hardcore misogynists do feel bad (perhaps on a subconscious level) when they're called out, although most appear not to. But those types of hardcore misogynists wouldn't be interested in feminist media criticism anyway. Feminist media critics are generally aiming their work at "reasonable guys with some misogynistic streaks"; the kind of guy that genuinely wants to be a good person. Who feels a little dirty watching porn or getting freaky with pixelbabes, but does it anyway.

This seems to imply the guys should feel bad for watching porn and getting freaky with pixelbabes or am I misreading you?

Quote from: Novastar;795484(Caveat: I'm going to assume you mean "SJW" brand of social justice, rather than garden variety equality feminism.)

ConsultantGate. (D&D 5e)

They made up false allegations about Pundit and Zak S., tried pushing it into the public sphere, and wanted people to not buy D&D 5th Edition for employing "sexist, racist, homophobes". (if we make up enough slurs, maybe one of them will stick!)

Dude, seriously, keep up. You're on the website of one of the guys they tried to libel.

EDIT: I'm also pretty sure that when people like Alex Lifschitz destroys a copy of GTA5, as a symbol of the oppression of AAA developers, he's not a fan of people buying the game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51McaZrra7w

But don't forget its only censorship if the government does it. Calling for something to never been shown lest  anyone that dare be shamed out of the business isn't censorship.

Quote from: Nexus;795486This seems to imply the guys should feel bad for watching porn and getting freaky with pixelbabes or am I misreading you?

Only porn and pixel-bashing of the specific types that feminists are critiquing. e.g. Sarkeesian had stated IIRC that she's supportive of sex in videogames.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;795485That's not censorship, it's a boycott attempt. Difference.

It's made under false pretenses, so I'm not so sure, but I'll grant you the point nevertheless.

Zoe Quinn's DMCA takedown of MundaneMatt's YouTube video, for using pictures of Depression Quest that were publicly available, to silence conversation on the Zoe Post.

Anita Sarkeesian's Harassment complaint against thunderf00t's twitter account, for hosting link's to his YouTube channel that contains several criticisms of her series.

Quote from: Novastar;795489It's made under false pretenses, so I'm not so sure, but I'll grant you the point nevertheless.

You can claim that any media critique or boycott attempt is made under false pretenses. I'm talking about actual feminist calls for censorship.

Quote from: Novastar;795489Zoe Quinn's DMCA takedown of MundaneMatt's YouTube video, for using pictures of Depression Quest that were publicly available, to silence conversation on the Zoe Post.

Anita Sarkeesian's Harassment complaint against thunderf00t's twitter account, for hosting link's to his YouTube channel that contains several criticisms of her series.

I haven't followed the nitty-gritty details of Gamergate drama, so I can't judge who is playing dirty pool etc. But whatever the case, exploiting IP law to silence one's critics isn't the same thing as calling for media censorship.

Ok, at this point I have to ask: what is your definition of media censorship?

Quote from: Novastar;795492Ok, at this point I have to ask: what is your definition of media censorship?

The banning or restriction of certain types of media content, by legal authority, is what constitutes censorship. Canada has a legal ban on hate speech for instance. Restricting obscene content in movies, either through age restrictions (mild) or bans (major) is also censorship.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;795473Here's a mission for you: post a recent feminist call for censorship in any media besides pornography.

Im going to amend what I posted here previously based on what I've read in this thread since.

To start with, the definition of a censor is: "a person who examines books, movies, letters, etc., and removes things that are considered to be offensive, immoral, harmful to society, etc.", with censorship as the verbial form.

Right now, gender feminists media critics (lets specifically focus on those in regards to videogames, rpgs, and comicbooks, or "geek media") are not in a position to act as censors. You stated earlier that your definition of censorship is the restriction of content by legal authority. While I disagree that legal authority is necessary as part of the definition (many censorship bodies, such as those of film, or the almost-defunct-at-this-point CCA, are not government elected or appointed), it is true that at this point the gender feminist critics are incapable of censoring the media they are attacking.

But then we're not talking about that, we're talking about thier "ultimate goal". To understand that lets evaluate some of the basic premises of gender feminist critique:

1) we live in an inherently misogynistic society ("The Patriarchy")
2) that state of affairs is maintained through sexist depictions of women in media

Point #1 is arguable, but one I'm generally willing to concede, to a degree. Meaning that I do believe that modern Western culture does propogate some inherently sexist ideas, including "traditional" gender roles, disparities in social responsibility and accountability based on gender, and numerous double standards in regards to sexuality, to name just a few things. This situation has been steadily improving since the original feminist movements at the turn of the twentieth century, to the point that legal equality (if not social equality) is almost achieved, but it's still an ongoing problem. I do not believe in "The Patriarchy" per se, except as a descriptive that is rapidly losing validity.

Point #2 is both the basis for my statement about the ultimate goal of modern gender feminists (henceforth "radfem", both because its easier to type and to prevent confusion with other forms of feminism that I happen to agree with and support) and the premise behind everything from Anita Sarkeesians video critiques of videogame tropes to the various RPGnet threads on the sexism of art in RPGs. This premise requires an article of faith: namely, that art/entertainment influences behaviour. Most credible scientific research does not support this theory, nor does statistical analysis, but belief in it is necessary to accept radfem critiques as viable or, to thier mind, necessary as a means of dealing with Point #1.

So, right now, in regards to geek media, radfem critics are engaging en masse in examining comicbooks, vieogames, RPGs, etc., to identify things that are considered to be offensive, immoral, harmful to society (i.e. influencing and engendering misogyny). You'll notice this is the first half of the definition of a censor. At this time, radfem critics have no means of removing these things from a position of authority, legal or otherwise.

But beyond simple theorywanking, can we agree that the point of these activities is to effect social change in order to remove these "harmful elements" that support The Patriarchy? I'll await your answer to this before I continue (and provide examples), not because I couldn't simply fill the thread with links to this behaviour, but because any example I gave would be meaningless if we are operating on different base assumptions. (I've given up on Will as a troll, but I'm going to assume until proven otherwise that we are debating in good faith here).

Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;795485That's not censorship, it's a boycott attempt. Difference.

I see, so the difference is that they are not in a position to actually censor it, they can only put public pressure on in attempt to force others to censor it? That's really nitpicking.

Quote from: Nexus;795486This seems to imply the guys should feel bad for watching porn and getting freaky with pixelbabes or am I misreading you?

Misogyny = hatred of women. So according to him, watching porn = hates women.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;795493The banning or restriction of certain types of media content, by legal authority, is what constitutes censorship. Canada has a legal ban on hate speech for instance. Restricting obscene content in movies, either through age restrictions (mild) or bans (major) is also censorship.

What word would you prefer for "control of media content, primarily through private channels"?

Quote from: S'mon;795500Misogyny = hatred of women. So according to him, watching porn = hates women.

Funny, I watch porn for the exact opposite reason. But if it makes me a misogynist it makes me a misandrist as well.