It'd be really interesting, I think, to see how closely GG/anti-GG maps to conservative/liberal.

I'm guessing 'very closely.'

Quote from: Alathon;795298I don't need to fix the current gaming media outlets.  I walk away from them, and their corruption no longer screws with me personally.  I make a case to others that they can get better gaming news elsewhere, and more than a few seem to be making that choice.  I participate in boycotts and letter writing campaigns to advertisers, the results of which have been substantial as most do not want to support bigotry and bullying targeted at their customers.  These steps wouldn't work against a 'Nintendo Power' that's directly funded by Nintendo, of course, but for most of the rest they contribute to defunding the target media outlets.  If the money moves, industry moves or dies.

And where exactly do you suggest they go?

No, I'm honestly curious. This isn't restricted to the platform-exclusive sites; they're all dependent on the major publishers giving access, inviting them to preview and review days, sending out pre-release review code. And as I said earlier, it's going to stay this way until gamers fund the sites they want to be reading, but this leads neatly on to...

QuoteWith youtubers, many of the same perverse incentives exist that have existed in gaming media, but they're in a different position.  As independent contractors they can choose to be ethical and not be pressured by a boss.  As their own masters, they can choose to engage in conflicts and not simply be removed from their speaking position by pressure from a game company.  If the trend toward crowdfunding gaming journalists continues, they can choose to do things like forego advertisement entirely -- some of them will.  Many, if gamers push for it and pay for it.  It's easy for even just a thousand people to fund one journalist, and this is an industry measured in millions.  There are many people willing to be ethical journalists if only they can be permitted to pay their damned bills doing it.

...the fact that, even if you fund a journalist, they're still reliant on the same publishers for access, and it's "this year's game in yearly franchise gets 9/10, shockingly" articles that are the bread-and-butter of game sites.

I'm an RPS fan, I've been a subscriber for years, I love me some New Games Journalism, but that is a site by enthusiasts that writes content for enthusiasts, and isn't even trying to be populist.

This whole thing just needs to die in fire.  Or rather a lot of the most vocal people on either side just need to die in fire.  There are low life douchebags on both sides of this issue, and each one is trying outdo the other.

Anyone who's ever played an video game online knows there are immature idiots who sow misogyny and racism like wheat in a field.  I fucking hate these people, and it's one reason why I don't play online games.

And we also know that women get harassed all the fucking time.  That Woman Walking in New York recent video hits that point home.

And we know that ethics is something sorely lacking in the gaming journalism industry, and has been for a long time.  Quid Pro Quo seems the norm.  Why is this suddenly a shock now?  That's how capitalism works in this country.  In politics, it's called "lobbying"

And we know Brianna Wu created sock puppet accounts to act like some sort of agent provocateur, so who really knows what threat was an actual threat and not something she (or others like her) made up to make themselves the victim?  It's not like there's not a history of extreme activists making threats up to get attention.

About the only thing I know for sure is that yes, there are legitimate reasons to take on misogyny in gaming, and there are legitimate threats against these people.  I also know that some of these threats are made up by them.  How many?  Which ones?  Who knows.

That's why this whole thing just needs a giant reset button, and these attention whoring assholes (on both sides) can go die in fire.

Quote from: Haffrung;795159Is that why Oprah said she couldn't watch Friends because there were no black characters? And why Friends is now regarded as a non-inclusive show that appealed only to self-congratulatory white people? Is tokenism really any better?

Ophrah is hardly the spoke person for Black people, women or other minorities, but you got me there. I shouldn't have said "pretty much every non-white person". I'd still wager that the vast majority of non-whites who consume media fit into what I said.

QuoteThat presumes people who make Hollywood movies don't want to make money or they don't understand their audience.

Well, either they do understand their audience, which is presumably majority white and they realize that they don't have the necessary empathy to identify with a non-white, non-male lead. Or, they don't really understand their audience and underestimate their capacity for such empathy. Take you pick.

To bring back the Bruce Lee example, they completely missed the boat on that one, given his explosive success later. They could have cashed in quite well had they given him a chance.

QuoteAgain, this notion that when the market provides what we like it's working properly, but when it doesn't provide what we like it's distorted or flawed. Whatever other flaws the market has, it's the best tool we have for figuring out what lots of people like.

Well, a couple of points:

1) New things enter the market and they either fail or succeed
2) Some markets have gatekeepers with disproportionate power over the market, and Hollywood is one of those areas. I assume you realize that.
3) These gatekeepers can be wrong.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;795377This whole thing just needs to die in fire.  Or rather a lot of the most vocal people on either side just need to die in fire.  There are low life douchebags on both sides of this issue, and each one is trying outdo the other.

Anyone who's ever played an video game online knows there are immature idiots who sow misogyny and racism like wheat in a field.  I fucking hate these people, and it's one reason why I don't play online games.

And we also know that women get harassed all the fucking time.  That Woman Walking in New York recent video hits that point home.

And we know that ethics is something sorely lacking in the gaming journalism industry, and has been for a long time.  Quid Pro Quo seems the norm.  Why is this suddenly a shock now?  That's how capitalism works in this country.  In politics, it's called "lobbying"

And we know Brianna Wu created sock puppet accounts to act like some sort of agent provocateur, so who really knows what threat was an actual threat and not something she (or others like her) made up to make themselves the victim?  It's not like there's not a history of extreme activists making threats up to get attention.

About the only thing I know for sure is that yes, there are legitimate reasons to take on misogyny in gaming, and there are legitimate threats against these people.  I also know that some of these threats are made up by them.  How many?  Which ones?  Who knows.

That's why this whole thing just needs a giant reset button, and these attention whoring assholes (on both sides) can go die in fire.

Hear hear. Agreed.

However, this thing would *probably* be over if the gaming media did address the ethics problems it has, and issued an apology for prioritizing the covering of their own ass over taking care of that. They also should strongly call out the likes of Sam "Bring Back Bullying" Bidell, Mark "Neuroatypicals" Read and Leigh "Hood Men" Alexander instead of trying to pretend these were attempts at ironic "hipster humor".  If they did that, the wind would go out of the GamerGate sails.

Though I wish it would just evolve and "level up" as wikileaks suggested. The GamerGate fiasco has just highlighted once more how the supposedly "objective" media tilts. Their coverage has been shamefully one sided.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;795377And we also know that women get harassed all the fucking time.  That Woman Walking in New York recent video hits that point home.

Interestingly, this video has come under fire:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/10/29/catcalling_video_hollaback_s_look_at_street_harassment_in_nyc_edited_out.html?wpsrc=fol_fb

Basically, one of the folks responsible for the video has a history of slanting stuff in a racially problematic way, and the 'woman walking in New York' JUST HAPPENS to have not managed to get clean video of any white men harassing. (They claimed 'oh, there was a siren or didn't get a good shot' of such things)

Obviously, women get harassed walking down the street, but just an interesting element of this particular story.



Also, I referenced this a while back but finally found the link. An interview that sours as a guy starts ranting about inclusivity...

http://flavorwire.com/480990/pete-pete-was-all-white-people-slimed-author-mathew-klickstein-on-why-ren-and-stimpy-was-better-than-clarissa-and-nickelodeons-diversity-problem/

Quote from: Will;795380Basically, one of the folks responsible for the video has a history of slanting stuff in a racially problematic way, and the 'woman walking in New York' JUST HAPPENS to have not managed to get clean video of any white men harassing. (They claimed 'oh, there was a siren or didn't get a good shot' of such things)

New York doesn't have much of a white underclass, and arguably northern Europeans aren't so much for catcalls, anyway - though British building-site workers certainly had a reputation for it. I read that the streets they filmed were mostly black, that they would have got a different mix filming in New York's Puerto Rican areas, say.
If they wanted to get video of whites catcalling I would suggest Boston - I've heard it's the one city in the USA where whites routinely "act like they own the place" - or they could go to mostly-white British, Irish, or southern European cities. I get the impression that Scandinavians & Germans don't catcall much.

Quote from: Will;795369It'd be really interesting, I think, to see how closely GG/anti-GG maps to conservative/liberal.

I'm guessing 'very closely.'

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/841/842/7e1.png
Actually, it seems to track more "Libertarian" versus "Authoritarian".

While both Milo and Adam Baldwin are fairly solidly Right, IIRC, Totalbiscuit and Christina H. Sommers were both moderate Left's.

The accusation I've heard is that Rob Bliss has a history of making nonwhites look bad. I have no idea if it's TRUE, but it could guide decisions about where they went.

On the other hand, it could be convergent external racism, in which they went to some area with easily accessible loads of unemployed guys hanging out on the street, which means poor which selects towards minorities.

So it's racist but not because they are racist? Dunno.

Quote from: Novastar;795387http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/841/842/7e1.png
Actually, it seems to track more "Libertarian" versus "Authoritarian".

While both Milo and Adam Baldwin are fairly solidly Right, IIRC, Totalbiscuit and Christina H. Sommers were both moderate Left's.

Where does the graph come from/what is it based on?

I have no idea about Totalbiscuit, but Sommers... she might be registered Democrat, but reading up on her views, I'd be hard-pressed to call her even moderate Left, though I can't find anything on her fiscal thoughts (she's mostly focused on social issues).

Quote from: Will;795388So it's racist but not because they are racist? Dunno.

If you believe that Disparate Impact is racist, yeah. They wouldn't have got video of black harrassers if they had gone to an area without blacks. Getting a lot of video of Anglo-white harrassers in the modern USA might have been trickier, though. In the past 15 years or so Mexican immigration has driven working-class US Anglos out of a lot of the on-street jobs where they'd be in a position to harrass female passers-by, and unemployed Anglos don't have much of a tradition of doing that. But my white American wife certainly used to get catcalled by the (working) white natives of Sheffield & Coventry; mostly white & working class English cities.

Time to drop some video bombs:

Sargon of Akkad - The Art of #GamerGate: A nearly half-hour video reviewing more recent GG developments, how they connect, spoken about over an original art piece by a GG supporter.

Sargon of Akkad - A Conversation with #GamerGate and #NotYourShield (28/10/2014) The record of a 4 hour livesteam over Google Hangout from a few days ago; yes, it's worth listening to all of it.

GamerGaters - GamerGaters - The nature of Identity handles and The GG Harassment Patrol

GamerGaters - GamerGaters - 27th October Community Stream feat. Roguestar & The Ralph Retort

Internet Aristocrat - #GamerGate Tonight Stream 10/24/14

In addition, some YouTube channel links:

Honey Badger Radio (frequently talks GamerGate and related issues)
GamerGaters
Sargon of Akkad
Internet Aristocrat

Takeaway: Fuck the SJWs and their establishment media presence. This is where the real evidence of GG and its ongoing transformative effect upon the gaming nation crops up- and it does not favor the SJWs.

Quote from: S'mon;795356Non-feminists don't necessarily accept gender feminists' claims re gender feminsts' goals... Especially as gender feminists don't accept that it is legitimate to scrutinise the motivations of gender feminists. They say this explicitly, eg I have a book of essays called Critical Legal Theory where one says "Feminists do not seek to make ourselves the Object of Study'" - warning off other academics from inquiring into (gender) feminist motivations.

Alathon was using "gender feminists" way too broadly, that's all.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;7953782) Some markets have gatekeepers with disproportionate power over the market, and Hollywood is one of those areas. I assume you realize that.
3) These gatekeepers can be wrong.

The bottom line in Hollywood is the bottom line. Money. If you have three movie studios, and the heads of two of them are 'gatekeepers' that make assumptions that are wrong, and a third gatekeeper opens up a new market, the first two will change tack. Or else they'll get fired. It's a ferociously competitive industry.

Quote from: Will;795380Interestingly, this video has come under fire:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/10/29/catcalling_video_hollaback_s_look_at_street_harassment_in_nyc_edited_out.html?wpsrc=fol_fb

Basically, one of the folks responsible for the video has a history of slanting stuff in a racially problematic way, and the 'woman walking in New York' JUST HAPPENS to have not managed to get clean video of any white men harassing. (They claimed 'oh, there was a siren or didn't get a good shot' of such things)

Obviously, women get harassed walking down the street, but just an interesting element of this particular story.



Also, I referenced this a while back but finally found the link. An interview that sours as a guy starts ranting about inclusivity...

http://flavorwire.com/480990/pete-pete-was-all-white-people-slimed-author-mathew-klickstein-on-why-ren-and-stimpy-was-better-than-clarissa-and-nickelodeons-diversity-problem/

I'm very curious about that video and how much it was edited. Even the choices behind where it was filmed, when and other factors can effect the results and video has a powerful impact...