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Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests

Started by Shipyard Locked, October 08, 2014, 12:16:06 PM

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James Gillen

Quote from: S'mon;794824The expectation is that the other side accept the Frame, putting the debate on your terms, where you are bound to win. This usually works, since most opposition don't understand Framing, apply classical-Liberal thinking, and think that they are engaging in a good-faith debate where the aim is to persuade the other side of the rightness of your position and correct any errors - "No, we Republicans aren't racist..." - Lakoff explains that once the Republican accepts the posited Frame, the Democrats have already won.

But the pro-GamerGaters have refused to accept the posited Frame (and have stuck to their own Frame re journalistic corruption), hence the frothing rage from the SJW-media.

Well, over 5 years on RPG.net taught me that this side isn't interested in a good-faith debate. :p

JG
-My own opinion is enough for me, and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time. And anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass.
 -Christopher Hitchens
-Be very very careful with any argument that calls for hurting specific people right now in order to theoretically help abstract people later.
-Daztur

James Gillen

Quote from: Will;794908JHKIM: People have said repeatedly 'maybe try a hashtag more on-topic without the poison of starting with lies and attracting assholes.'

And the general reaction is essentially 'but people might not pay attention then!'

Which basically means 'we're riding on the heat of liars and assholes, but we're TOTALLY NOT WITH THEM.'

To those who (frequently) say "why don't you guys organize under another hashtag if this one is so tainted?" my response would be that's probably going to happen regardless.  Because just as toxic misogyny is an issue far beyond the scope of the gaming scene and obviously far predates it, the issue of compromised journalism is far beyond the scope of gaming and is independent of the fact that some people who knee-jerk insult women for being women are jumping on this because the two most prominent examples are women.  Again, Andrew Sullivan in particular has been talking about advertising masquerading as journalism for quite some time.  It only seems like a NON-issue to anti-GGs because gaming journalism never had what used to be called journalistic ethics (as that MarySue article inadvertently pointed out) and it only seems like an issue particular to videogames because some people DID recently point this out.

JG
-My own opinion is enough for me, and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time. And anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass.
 -Christopher Hitchens
-Be very very careful with any argument that calls for hurting specific people right now in order to theoretically help abstract people later.
-Daztur

Spinachcat

Quote from: S'mon;794853The SJW narrative is that all threats against them are credible and should be investigated while threats against their enemies are non-existent, non-credible, or their enemies deserve it anyway.

This is the narrative of all "sides", regardless of the debate. Any empathy with Team Red by Team Blue lessens the resolve of Team Blue and Team Red knows to leap upon any empathy as a sign of weakness.

However, I believe the "wild west" aspect of the Internet is coming to a close and "anonymous threats" will become rare as it will become easier and easier to report and track individuals.

I am unsure if that's a good or bad thing.


Quote from: BenTheFerg;794874let us not forget that the gaming industry is a global, multi-billion dollar behemoth, fuelled by profiting and cash, not by ideological dogma.

There is cash in "diversity" in an age where you can target and appeal to niche markets. Sprinkling "diversity" in a mainstream product is often a PR tactic to gain mindspace in a crowded marketplace. AKA, modifying the boobage (up/down/whatever) in the next Tomb Raider to be released is guaranteed free advertising. Free advertising = more sales.


Quote from: BenTheFerg;794874(Maybe in the US death threats are so normal, such a daily occurrence that it is like water off a duck's back....thus Sarkeesian is simply a wimp and needs to 'man up'?  ;)

In 2014, online death threats should be expected by any activist on any "side" where they are championing ideas from Team Red that will conflict with the ideas of Team Blue. Until online monitoring software reaches the next level of privacy destruction, online death threats are our New Normal.

Feminism wants women to compete equally against men in what was previously "a man's world" and that's a fine concept as long as you acknowledge that "a man's world", at least in the US is a vicious capitalistic competition.  Most men were crushed, broken, demoralized and brutalized by "man's world" in the past. Why should it be any different for a woman?

You want in the mosh pit? Wanna throw elbows? Then get ready to take an elbow. Successful people (male or female) know this.


Quote from: BenTheFerg;7948744. #gamergate is seemingly – for many - a Trojan Horse for angry men to vent their spleens.

Human males are animals prone to anger and violence. You think some 1960s folk songs and placards erased a million years of genetics? Everyone should be grateful that "angry men" are neutered by video games and Twitter instead of committing actual rape and actual violence.  

Doxxing and nasty posts isn't nice behavior, but let's not forget that many Suffragettes suffered fist to face beat downs for demanding the right to vote.

Ladybird

Quote from: Spinachcat;795018In 2014, online death threats should be expected by any activist on any "side" where they are championing ideas from Team Red that will conflict with the ideas of Team Blue. Until online monitoring software reaches the next level of privacy destruction, online death threats are our New Normal.

...and that isn't okay. There's no place for violence or threats thereof in civilised conversation. The people who think that there is, that they should be able to post these crude attacks in an effort to silence their critics, and all under the banner of "free speech!!1!1!", are just giving more and more examples to governments that want to silence actual, real, valuable, free speech.

When tighter internet monitoring comes in - and it will - it's these people who should be hanging their heads in shame, because they're the ones who will have really killed the notion of free speech.
one two FUCK YOU

BenTheFerg

Quote from: Warboss Squee;794978It is nice being dehumanised isn't it. Just as it's a warm fuzzy being demonized, which is the feeling that many gamers, myself included, get when multiple gaming sites decided to declare gamers as a culture represent the white male oppressor, being white is playing games on easy mode, and that killing a toon in Call of Duty that happens to be controlled by a woman is like rape.

This kind of crap has been going on for years, and a large part of the push back that's going on.

So welcome.

And yes, I feel much better now. :cool:

What can I say?  That such trolling behaviour exemplifies some of problems with these forums?  Slow hand clap to the big man!

I don't believe I have supported in writing anything you have in effect accused me of.

Moreover I categorise myself as a gamer.  Been rpging since I was 12. A while in other words. And I am fed up with trolls giving gamers a bad name.

But in the spirit of peace I can understand retrospectively that my original post probably got some backs up.  Thus my slam dunking. Mea culpa on that one I guess.

Nevertheless,  I still am perplexed by why folks have focused their ire on a few indie game developers &/critics rather than focus on the industry as a whole. But I will stop there. Probably best I move on to more productive discussions!

Snowman0147

If you want to look at death threats look no further than Marilyn Manson after the Columbine shooting.  It was bad enough he got death threats because people hated his music and considered him to be the spawn of satan.  So when Marilyn Manson decided to have a concert at Columbine after a year of the shooting you can see the death threats flowing.  So what did Marilyn Manson do?

He just did his concert.  The man went to Columbine and did his show.  His fans showed up and had fun in which many of those fans were from the school itself.  Nothing happen other than a fun night of rock & roll.

You know what would had happen if Anita did her speech at that college.  Nothing would happen.  Her fans would enjoy the speech and that is it.  Why?  If that son of a bitch actually wanted to kill her he wouldn't tell her any thing.  Instead he would just kill her.

Am I saying Anita is a coward?  No.  I suspect she knew what she was doing when the police refuse to break their own state law.  When she gave up that speech and put the blame on the death threat it just made her victimhood even bigger.  In the social justice warrior world a bigger victimhood means more cash flow going into your coffers.  So of course she is going to manipulate the system and emotional people that don't even bother to think.  She gets more money that way.

Spinachcat

Quote from: Will;794996It needs to be less hostile and unwelcoming to some groups. Inclusivity should (IMO) be about being simply aware that, you know, people come in different types and enjoying that.

Why aren't the makers of peanut butter trying to sell to people who don't like peanuts or peanut butter?

If images of sexy women drives off female customers, how does the fashion industry stay in business? Or the perfume industry? Or the Lifetime network?

If Hulk is gay in Avengers 2, what will be the net profit increase for the box office from all the people who avoided Avengers 1 due to a lack of LGBT role models in that IP? Maybe Spiderman can be Hulk's favorite twink?

If a TV show has a black lead character and an Asian lead character, is that inclusivity or tokenism?

Also, what metric do we have that proves that hiring "Person of Color X" or "Person with Crotch Junk Y" is a better choice for maximizing box office receipts than hiring the best talent for the role?

This is why I don't buy into the cult of inclusivity.

I suspect many of those whining about "hostile and unwelcoming" in RPGs are the fucktards nobody wants at their table but the anonymous internet allows them to become Martyrs For The Cause. The SJW crusade absolutely reeks of catpissmen and lawncrappers looking for acceptance.

The Inclusivity Police will not be happy until the rest of us somehow are forced to accept the Fucktard Brigade at the table, but hey its a better fight than their other battle trying to convince sober people that fuglies are beautiful.


Quote from: Will;794996Again, look at how people lost their fucking shit over 5e saying, very briefly, 'hey, people come in a lot of types and so can your characters.'

Barely anyone? A handful of posters?

Have you noticed the complete lack of Paragraph Panic since the PHB came out in stores? The complete lack of articles about the Paragraph by any Defender of Morality in the actual press? Where are the preachers telling us we're going to hell for playing that homo game?


Quote from: Will;794996I'm sure people disagree with me, but I don't think rpg.net was always this bad.

I fully agree with you. I was on RPG.net in the "wild west years" and even in the mid-2000s when the SJW bullshit was starting, but somewhere along the line the worst of Tangency took over the site.  

I know that sounds impossible to many on this site, but yes Virginia, there was a time when Tangency wasn't a (total) freak show.


Quote from: Will;794996It's possible to look toward minimizing threadcrapping, 'attack ideas not people,' and trying to make a welcoming/inclusive environment without hiring Equilibrium Grammaton clerics as moderators.

Did you just fucking insult the Grammaton clerics by comparing them to the human shit of RPGnet mods! Repent Will repent!! :)

RPGPundit nailed it with theRPGsite. If you promote Freedom of Speech with minimal moderation, you get better discussions.

Let's look at this thread. You've taken some heat for being the "anti-GG" voice, but I doubt any of that heat compares to what occurs on other boards and certainly won't carry on to other threads where you are posting.

Why? While we are free to type "FUCK YOU AND DIE WILL YOU BASTARD!!!", its that freedom that actually encourages people opposed to your views to engage in something close to an almost discussion.

And that's why I will always razz Pundy, but never forget to thank him and respect him for creating a forum where freedom of speech is a real thing.

S'mon

Quote from: Spinachcat;795018This is the narrative of all "sides", regardless of the debate. Any empathy with Team Red by Team Blue lessens the resolve of Team Blue and Team Red knows to leap upon any empathy as a sign of weakness.

Well I don't see a lot of "and they deserve it anyway" from pro-GG vs anti-GG. I have seen mainstream anti-GG journos call for bullying. I do think there is asymmetry if you compare eg Breitbart - sympathetic to any possible bullying Quinn & Sarkeesian might have faced - to Gawker's call for bullying, or Boston Globe journalist Robert Caruso to Syrian Girl "I will enjoy your beloved Syria being torn apart by violence and Assad in exile even more" - http://mangans.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/journalist-wants-blood.html - because she's pro-GamerGate.

Individual Gamergaters and individual SJWs may both behave badly, but when it comes to the actual media - the people drawing paycheques - the vileness seems to be heavily one-sided.
Shadowdark Wilderlands (Fridays 6pm UK/1pm EST)  https://smons.blogspot.com/2024/08/shadowdark.html

Will

Well, yeah. There's a reason why, as much as it took the fuckheads on TBP to kick me out to LEAVE, I came here and stuck around.

(To my faint credit, I was starting to get more and more unhappy with moderation on TBP for a few years there)

As for Grammaton Clerics... being banned would have been more entertaining with swirling black trenchcoats, admittedly.

As for the peanut butter metaphor... I realize you don't believe me, but at least some people see the situation more as 'oh, you have redhair. Peanut butter isn't FOR you, you wimpy shit.'

Or people acting like peanut butter is macho and only for real men.

Women (and minorities) like RPGs fine. Love it. But groups of guys telling them it's not for them has an effect. Presentation of most material that suggests they have no place in the hobby has an effect.

That said, I think the internet has had a hugely useful effect on breaking down a lot of these barriers. Game stores aren't the primary way people are getting into the hobby.

So among other things, I actually think we've seen a swing back from 'boy's club' of 90s and 2000s. Fantasy, paranormal romance (ugh) has broadened the market, and there are loads of roleplay and gaming available online for all sorts of tastes.


Now, personally, I welcome the ability to shut down anonymity online.
If you want to say something, stand up and say it. (Barring anonymous polls and voting)
This forum is great in that the moderators aren\'t jack-booted fascists.

Unfortunately, this forum is filled with total a-holes, including a bunch of rape culture enabling dillholes.

So embracing the \'no X is better than bad X,\' I\'m out of here. If you need to find me I\'m sure you can.

BenTheFerg

Quote from: Snowman0147;795027....
You know what would had happen if Anita did her speech at that college.  Nothing would happen.  Her fans would enjoy the speech and that is it.  Why?  If that son of a bitch actually wanted to kill her he wouldn't tell her any thing.  Instead he would just kill her.

Am I saying Anita is a coward?  No.  I suspect she knew what she was doing when the police refuse to break their own state law.  When she gave up that speech and put the blame on the death threat it just made her victimhood even bigger.  In the social justice warrior world a bigger victimhood means more cash flow going into your coffers.  So of course she is going to manipulate the system and emotional people that don't even bother to think.  She gets more money that way.

It is this kind of callous indifference about the rape threats,  vile abuse, doxxing and finally death threats that really sticks in my craw and those of others.

Can't you simply accept that being subjected to that level of hate for having views which oppose yours is truly terrifying?

I realise we will never agree on the idea that feminism has a valid case on gender representation in gaming but. .... can you at least treat your intellectual opponents with some humanity?

Will

Yeah, it's easy to be blasé when you aren't in the sights.

And given it's been less than 5 months since a guy murdered a bunch of women and men over ranty MRA misogyny and spewing hatred about bitches, it's a little fresh in folks' minds.

Before that shitbag started his murders, he uploaded a bunch of rants about it. He wasn't quiet, he didn't commit his crimes covertly.

Crazy killers often want to show off.


So, yeah, this was _probably_ just some obnoxious fuckhead trying to get his rocks off terrorizing a public feminist.

Or maybe he wasn't.
This forum is great in that the moderators aren\'t jack-booted fascists.

Unfortunately, this forum is filled with total a-holes, including a bunch of rape culture enabling dillholes.

So embracing the \'no X is better than bad X,\' I\'m out of here. If you need to find me I\'m sure you can.

BenTheFerg

Quote from: Will;795041Yeah, it's easy to be blasé when you aren't in the sights.

And given it's been less than 5 months since a guy murdered a bunch of women and men over ranty MRA misogyny and spewing hatred about bitches, it's a little fresh in folks' minds.

Before that shitbag started his murders, he uploaded a bunch of rants about it. He wasn't quiet, he didn't commit his crimes covertly.

Crazy killers often want to show off.


So, yeah, this was _probably_ just some obnoxious fuckhead trying to get his rocks off terrorizing a public feminist.

Or maybe he wasn't.

This is sadly the issue.  Especially in the USA where access to guns is so much easier than here in the UK/EU.

But I am aware this is another can of worms! Same language.  Very different views on so many things!

ArrozConLeche

Quote from: BenTheFerg;795039It is this kind of callous indifference about the rape threats,  vile abuse, doxxing and finally death threats that really sticks in my craw and those of others.

Can't you simply accept that being subjected to that level of hate for having views which oppose yours is truly terrifying?

I realise we will never agree on the idea that feminism has a valid case on gender representation in gaming but. .... can you at least treat your intellectual opponents with some humanity?

Co signed. Much has been made on the fact that she was advised by law enforcement not to keep publicizing the threats, but the fact remains that no one should be making death threats in order to silence an opposing view, or any other reason; specially if one purports to believe in free speech.

ArrozConLeche

Quote from: Spinachcat;795029Why aren't the makers of peanut butter trying to sell to people who don't like peanuts or peanut butter?

If images of sexy women drives off female customers, how does the fashion industry stay in business? Or the perfume industry? Or the Lifetime network?

This is one of the instances in which the narrative from some crusaders doesn't seem inclusive. I totally understand wanting other representations instead of just one, but I don't get the desire of some to blanket generalize "cheesecake" as sexist or misogynist.

QuoteIf Hulk is gay in Avengers 2, what will be the net profit increase for the box office from all the people who avoided Avengers 1 due to a lack of LGBT role models in that IP? Maybe Spiderman can be Hulk's favorite twink?*

If a TV show has a black lead character and an Asian lead character, is that inclusivity or tokenism?*

Also, what metric do we have that proves that hiring "Person of Color X" or "Person with Crotch Junk Y" is a better choice for maximizing box office receipts than hiring the best talent for the role?*

This is why I don't buy into the cult of inclusivity.*

*
The way I think about this is imagining how fucking awesome the series Kung Fu would have been had they cast Bruce Lee as the lead instead of David Carradine (no matter how cheesy good he was).*

Bruce was arguably the best possible choice for that show, But white America wasn't ready for an Asian male lead...not even in a Kung Fu show. And apparently they still aren't, let alone in something less stereotypical. so, no, the best person doesn't regularly get the job.

It's no coincidence, in my view, that pretty much every Asian, international mega hit *has been 'whitewashed' by replacing the lead with a white actor...Ju On, Old Boy (fuck.. Why??), and even The Last Air Bender. *You have to wonder why. There's no lack of *talented Asian or asian american actors

And saying that whites are the majority in the market, as is often the argument,  isn't a particularly strong argument, because pretty much every non white person is able to enjoy and emphatize with a lead when the lead happens to be white. Why Hollywood appears to think that a white movie audience won't be able to enjoy and empathize with a lead that isn't Caucasian, to the point of replacing nonwhite *characters with white ones, is baffling.

You can make a similar argument for gender. There could be more roles like Ripley or Meg Ryan's on The Interpreter or uma on Kill Bill, and they would still bank tons of money. House of Sand and Fog also comes to mind.*

Snowman0147

Your right no one should get death threats.  I am just pointing out if Anita gave a shit about her cause she would had braved against the threat and gave her speech.  Instead she played victim again and manipulated fools to feel sorry for her.  

Don't believe me?  Look at Teddy Roosevelt who got shot during his successful attempt to become president.  Shot by a assassin and what did he do?  He went over to his speech, told everyone he got shot by a assassin, and then to spite the assassination attempt he gave his speech.  Why?  As crazy as it is the man CARES about his cause that he would risk his life to support it.

Not to mention how many times Rosa Parks was given death threats when she was fighting for her right to sit in front of the bus?  How many more death threats do you think she had gotten when Martin Luther King Jr. step in to help Rosa Parks?  Did she back down?  No!  She cared about her cause and so did Martin Luther King Jr.

These people risk their lives and some of them got assassinated for those causes.  They did this knowing they put a target on their backs for the rest of their lives.  The sacrifices they make will help out future generations.

So if Anita believes in her cause so much why did she leave?  Why not call out the death threat giver as hateful loser and gave the speech anyway?  If she was serving a cause she would do that.  The fact she step down and played victim tells me she really doesn't believe in her cause.  Maybe because she is a coward, or maybe because there is not enough profit in the speech itself compared to playing as the victim?