"If you advocate for #gamergate on this site, we're going to ban you" - http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?739609-gamergate-on-RPGnet-READ-THIS&p=18395417#post18395417

"But I do want to thank the mods and admins for their collective decisions which go a long way to make this the kind of welcoming and inclusive site described in the OP."  - http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?739609-gamergate-on-RPGnet-READ-THIS&p=18395607#post18395607

Quote from: S'mon;794932"If you advocate for #gamergate on this site, we're going to ban you" - http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?739609-gamergate-on-RPGnet-READ-THIS&p=18395417#post18395417

"But I do want to thank the mods and admins for their collective decisions which go a long way to make this the kind of welcoming and inclusive site described in the OP."  - http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?739609-gamergate-on-RPGnet-READ-THIS&p=18395607#post18395607

I said it years ago, I'll say it again now, they have no fucking clue what the term inclusive means.

Quote from: S'mon;794742Men in these roles - well men can certainly be in sexualised roles, and often are in female-oriented fiction, eg Twilight. But the helpless victim trope doesn't work the same way psychologically. Basically, the male (esp the adolescent male) wants to rescue the helpless damsel and have sex with her, but the female brain doesn't work that way. But what I found did work running a d20 Conan game for female players was youthful male sidekicks to their butt-kicking heroines; male Gabrielles to their Xenas, or Robins to their female Batmans. The plucky sidekicks were brave, and reasonably competent - but not as competent as the PCs. The players absolutely loved this, loved eg rescuing them from the pirates, whereas completely ineffectual male characters would not have worked at all.

I've noticed that in most of my male players too. Most of them don't want swooning damsels but characters that are active and capable but maybe not as much as or in the same way as the hero(es). A good comparison would be the modern depictions of Lois and Superman. Lois is smart and active, in many arguably most situations she can take care of herself but she needs Supes when the aliens and world beaters show up.

Quote from: S'mon;794918Journalists, certainly. Most of the US news media, although Fox News was created as a reaction against that so it has different biases. It's most deeply entrenched in the media, the legal profession, teacher training colleges, US Universities (which are much more stifling than UK Universities - we often still adhere more to classical Marxism here) and most especially the bureaucracies. It only recently became hegemonic in the US military and in London's Metropolitan Police, I think Ian Blair was the first c-M adherent Commissioner of the Met, and the current Commissioner doesn't seem to be. The upper echelons of the US military have gone heavily C-M though. I remember after the large-scale Fort Hood massacre by the jihadi traitor Major Nidal Hassan, when General Casey said that although the massacre was a tragedy, the greater tragedy would be if Diversity suffered! Nothing about improving screening & security to stop it happening again.
I don't think it's hegemonic over videogame designers, which is a large part of what the recent cafuffle is about, and obviously not over the 'gamer' subculture. It is hegemonic in the Seattle tabletop rpg industry, notably Paizo are very strong adherents - not that that stops the rpgnet SJWs from calling Golarion racist.

Are you defining Cultural Marxism as what many folks on this forum refer to as SJW?

I.e. For you CM is some form of extreme Political Correctness 'gone mad'?

Am trying to understand you but admit I am struggling.

I have taught A level social and political studies for over 20 years and do not recognise the society you describe!

I can see plenty of evidence of a small elite gaining more wealth and privilege. More evidence of reduced social mobility.  Plenty of evidence of racism and sexism in society.
But to be honest,  Marxism died as an influential ideology here in the UK in 1995 when Tony Blair changed Clause IV in the Labour Party to embrace the free market.  I see no evidence of Marxism or even PC -ness in the police.

As for Paizo being influenced by Cultural Marxism. ...!!! Please if you have time enlighten me.  I assume you mean Paizo aiming to have greater diversity in terms of gender,  sexuality, ethnicity etc in their narratives in their Adventure Paths and scenarios? And that this is bad IYHO?

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;794895I'm going to address each point in separate posts.

1) Lack of ethics in journalism.

First off, when the allegations first started, people did not know they were not true. They believed there was a conflict of interest. That turned out to be false, and most people have moved on from that specific accusation.

I was actually anti-gg, as a knee jerk reaction to that. That is, until I became aware of the shady crap that LW has been accused of in regards to the FYC game jam. That is not right, and the fact that the crusading media did not even mention this is a problem too.

This also goes beyond ZQ:

https://imgur.com/a/HHpnv

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2ejs7v/gaming_journalists_patricia_hernandez_of_kotaku/

These, in particular, are most troubling to me:

http://www.gamezone.com/originals/here-s-what-we-know-allistair-pinsof-destructoid-yanier-niero-gonzalez-game-journo-pros-and-more
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/17/Exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite

The mainstream media coverage has also been very troubling, specially in light of this doozy from the past:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JournoList

Something a biased Boston Globe journalist actually tries to downplay:

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jrmwj/boston_globes_jesse_singal_implicated_in_vote

I used to think the calls of bias and censorship were poppycock, but wikileaks has made me reconsider:

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/511727048931282944

I'm actually wishing that they move on from videogames and start questioning the MSM as a whole.

Do you think that the above are a problem? If so, do you agree that they should be examined?

I do think there should be analysis of ethics in journalism.  This needs to be sensitivity and thoroughly done.  It is a massive topic.

I don't think GamerGate has done this well

Rather than go for the big issues,  the wider context,  etc it has focused on minnows who mainly seem to be women and who have been subjected to a terrible ordeal.

Some may themselves not acted wisely. However what they have been through. ...!!

The media are a powerful industry.  The Phone hacking debacle here in the UK illustrated the power of the tabloid media. But as I have said,  in relation to gamer journos, people seem to be missing the point.

I would argue the issue with ethical problems is not that Journalists are liberals but that, with our new 24-7 news culture,  citizen journalists, the reduction in staffing in magazines due to free online blogs etc have created challenging times to find work.  Putting journalists in a tight spot in this industry. They have to walk a tightrope:
Keep their boss happy
Keep their industry contacts happy
Keep their audience happy
Keep their family fed
Nurture their conscience.

That new film with Jake Gyllenhaal 'Nightcrawler' looks like an interesting take on some of the new challenges in the current tabloid media age.

Many folks seem upset with liberal minded gaming critics.  I can't understand their problem.  It was liberal journalists in the Washington Post who discovered Watergate and coined the term Gate for future major controversies. Liberals seeking the truth. Liberals who believe we are all born equal.

Quote from: S'monMen in these roles - well men can certainly be in sexualised roles, and often are in female-oriented fiction, eg Twilight. But the helpless victim trope doesn't work the same way psychologically. Basically, the male (esp the adolescent male) wants to rescue the helpless damsel and have sex with her, but the female brain doesn't work that way. But what I found did work running a d20 Conan game for female players was youthful male sidekicks to their butt-kicking heroines; male Gabrielles to their Xenas, or Robins to their female Batmans. The plucky sidekicks were brave, and reasonably competent - but not as competent as the PCs. The players absolutely loved this, loved eg rescuing them from the pirates, whereas completely ineffectual male characters would not have worked at all.

Quote from: Nexus;794948I've noticed that in most of my male players too. Most of them don't want swooning damsels but characters that are active and capable but maybe not as much as or in the same way as the hero(es). A good comparison would be the modern depictions of Lois and Superman. Lois is smart and active, in many arguably most situations she can take care of herself but she needs Supes when the aliens and world beaters show up.

Yeah, I also don't buy S'mon's characterization of the male and the female brain as if it was an inborn universal. I don't claim to know what the pure genetic sexual behavior of humans without culture. Liberals tend to suggest it is more like bonobos, while conservatives tend to suggest it is more like chimpanzees - but we have major differences from either, and culture is a huge influence on sexual behavior.

In my experience, adolescent male gamers (like my son) don't have any notable tendency to want helpless damsels to rescue and screw. I think this tends to be a fantasy of people who feel less powerful than they rightfully should be, while people who are more fulfilled tend to fantasize more about being dominated (like dominators/dominatrixes). I associate power fantasies more with adults getting worn down by the job market. If anything, I think today's teens feel a little too powerful.

A little off-topic - I thought it was interesting to see the trope of rescuing the helpless love interest (i.e. wounded Peeta) feature so prominently in The Hunger Games.

Get permabanned from awfulpurple and threatened to never work in the industry according to Cam Banks.  Yeah, I'd say someone is scared of the flashlight getting turned thisaway.

Quote from: Nexus;794948I've noticed that in most of my male players too. Most of them don't want swooning damsels but characters that are active and capable but maybe not as much as or in the same way as the hero(es). A good comparison would be the modern depictions of Lois and Superman. Lois is smart and active, in many arguably most situations she can take care of herself but she needs Supes when the aliens and world beaters show up.

Yes, that is mostly true (about male players) in RPGs, partly because we can generally only draw NPCs in very broad strokes, and "brave & competent" is an easy way to make an NPC attractive. I did make a 'damsel' type NPC in one AD&D PBP game, Tabitha Kallent, who a PC (Garrick) fell totally in love with,  and I'd say Garrick's player really likes too. Tabitha is '0 level' and has no combat skills, but she is psychologically very brave, and utterly devoted to Garrick. And she hasn't needed rescuing (after their first meeting when Garrick was one of the PCs who fought off the bandits threatening her coach). That 'Yggsburgh' campaign drew a lot from 18th/early 19th century fiction though (Daniel Defoe, Jane Austen etc) so I had more to work with than usual.  

I don't think I could have made the male equivalent of Tabitha Kallent a successful love interest, but I guess I could be wrong.

Quote from: jhkim;794959Yeah, I also don't buy S'mon's characterization of the male and the female brain as if it was an inborn universal.

Well, compare romance novel covers' depiction of men with Conan & suchlike pulp novel covers' depiction of women. This is why you (occasionally) get damsels in video games.

Quote from: Will;794914I THINK people have made the argument here, but ... I'm not super motivated to dig through 590 posts to verify.

The argument has been made by some, anyway:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/10/24/how-some-gamergate-supporters-say-the-controversy-could-stop-in-one-week/

Of course, 'doesn't speak for everyone/media is biased/etc'

Good article.  Thanks for flagging it up.

Quote from: S'mon;794968Well, compare romance novel covers' depiction of men with Conan & suchlike pulp novel covers' depiction of women. This is why you (occasionally) get damsels in video games.

Can you expand on what you mean by this?

Quote from: BenTheFerg;794866I assume you mean me since I am new.  Sigh. I am a gamer.  Of the old school variety. Been gaming since the early 1980s. Mainly rpgs but where time allows, video games and board games.  Nice being dehumanised.  Hope you feel better now.

It is nice being dehumanised isn't it. Just as it's a warm fuzzy being demonized, which is the feeling that many gamers, myself included, get when multiple gaming sites decided to declare gamers as a culture represent the white male oppressor, being white is playing games on easy mode, and that killing a toon in Call of Duty that happens to be controlled by a woman is like rape.

This kind of crap has been going on for years, and a large part of the push back that's going on.

So welcome.

And yes, I feel much better now. :cool:

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;794970Can you expand on what you mean by this?

Just cut my wrist on a glass, not much typing for a few days.

Typical Conan cover, passive sexy damsel:


Having trouble finding non-parody romance novel cover. This looks pretty typical - The men are focused on the female protagonist character, but still look strong & commanding.

I agree its utterly laughable how much handwringing there has been about how to get more women into male dominated hobbies, but silence about how female dominated hobbies need to attract males.

RPGs don't need more women or minorities. RPGs need more RPG players, regardless of their skin color or their crotch junk. I am not sold on belief that the "cult of inclusivity" is the holy grail for any hobby.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;794978It is nice being dehumanised isn't it. Just as it's a warm fuzzy being demonized, which is the feeling that many gamers, myself included, get when multiple gaming sites decided to declare gamers as a culture represent the white male oppressor, being white is playing games on easy mode, and that killing a toon in Call of Duty that happens to be controlled by a woman is like rape.

Let's all must take a breath and realize we live in an age where clickbait = profit and the more sensational the clickbait, the higher the clicks and thus higher the profit. There isn't much profit in reasonable discourse, especially when the dictates of infotainment has distorted journalism at every level.

I can only imagine how much fun 2016 is going to be.

Quote from: BenTheFerg;794874What so called SJW/ liberal journalists have tried to point out is that such online bullying of those with a liberal view/ their dehumanisation (as I have just predictably experienced) makes the internet an unpleasant environment in which to communicate and share thoughts and ideas.

Anyone (on any "side") who thinks the Internet is a useful tool for communication is being naive in 2014. The Internet is a tool of commerce, potentially a tool of education, but its crap at fostering effective human communication between parties of differing viewpoints. It's success at communication is the creation of isolated echo chambers, for better or worse, which allow niche interests to flourish.  

Twitter, the main battleground of Gamergate, is truly terrible medium for actual communication. It's 140 characters of shouting slogans, soundbite propaganda and "me too-ism" that does nothing to build bridges or articulate complex concepts.

Forums are self-selecting and thus generally become echo chambers. But more importantly, neither "side" is interested in communication. It's Red vs. Blue and only the ideals of "your side" can be allowed to be left standing when the melee is done.

RPG.net (and many other forums) create "victory" but eliminating discussion of the "other side", and the "victors" can congratulate themselves within their echo chamber.

Quote from: BenTheFerg;794874On a personal front, I want rpg/ gaming discussion forums to be troll free and a genuine place where people feel safe and able to share ideas.

Would you also like a magic pony?

The world isn't safe. It's full of assholes and living in the real world requires us to navigate through a sea of shitbags. Why would the Internet be different?

BTW, welcome to theRPGsite. If you want open sharing of ideas, you have come to the right place of scum and villainy. Please start up a RPG thread about your favorite game or aspect of gaming.

Quote from: BenTheFerg;794874but certainly I have not been impressed by the lack of empathy about online violence against women.

How much lack of empathy would you need to be impressed?

In an early post in this thread, I suggested the concept of "Anita as martyr" and wondered whether she was worth more to her "side" dead or alive. WTF more can I do to impress you???

Quote from: Spinachcat;794993RPGs don't need more women or minorities. RPGs need more RPG players, regardless of their skin color or their crotch junk. I am not sold on belief that the "cult of inclusivity" is the holy grail for any hobby.

It needs to be less hostile and unwelcoming to some groups. Inclusivity should (IMO) be about being simply aware that, you know, people come in different types and enjoying that. Again, look at how people lost their fucking shit over 5e saying, very briefly, 'hey, people come in a lot of types and so can your characters.'
OMFG THE HORRORS!

Where do you think that comes from?

The only reason it's a grail is because it's an attempt to level ground that's gotten heavily slanted over the past generation or so.

Quote from: Spinachcat;794993Twitter, the main battleground of Gamergate, is truly terrible medium for actual communication. It's 140 characters of shouting slogans, soundbite propaganda and "me too-ism" that does nothing to build bridges or articulate complex concepts.

We may vehemently disagree about a lot of things, but I've grown to seriously despise Twitter. It encourages the absolute worst mindsets and behavior of social media.

Quote from: Spinachcat;794993RPG.net (and many other forums) create "victory" but eliminating discussion of the "other side", and the "victors" can congratulate themselves within their echo chamber.

I'm sure people disagree with me, but I don't think rpg.net was always this bad.
It's possible to look toward minimizing threadcrapping, 'attack ideas not people,' and trying to make a welcoming/inclusive environment without hiring Equilibrium Grammaton clerics as moderators.