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Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests

Started by Shipyard Locked, October 08, 2014, 12:16:06 PM

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Shipyard Locked

Quote from: Will;792268If someone feels compelled to link in 'overreaching social justice advocates?'

It's not worrisome, it's proving the fucking point.

So you think there are groups/causes that are intrinsically immune to overreaching? That there can be no legitimate doubts about or criticism of how some members of that group/cause are doing things?

Please remember, I'm socially liberal. I believe social justice has value. I'm not defending any of GG's awful behavior, but I refuse to simply dismiss the reasonable ones and my own growing discomfort with this rising groupthink.

I don't want to fight here. I don't want to pick an "us vs. them" side. I just want people to notice how complex this stuff is. I personally believe Gamergate is one of many such culture clashes to come, not just in video games, and I'm not looking forward to any of them.  Looking for nuance will be beneficial in the long run.

Spinachcat

Quote from: Novastar;791990...except when it did happen, our government DID make it a "national terror attack". :p

Of course, but what was the end result? When the great wave of anthrax never came, the administration lost credibility (the bush who cried wolf) and the media looked like hysterical jackasses to everyone except idiots and old people. Much like today's "ebola's gonna kill us aaaaaaall!!!"


Quote from: Novastar;791990Well, realize it never was targeted at "a notable segment of the population"; it only affects people who 1) identify as Gamers, 2) Have internet, 3) Read online journalism, and 4) can be arsed to give a fuck.

Exactly. It's tempest in a teacup. I read a panicky article about how GG is the future of politics and we're all gonna die (or something something) because the GG "methods of attack" in the teacup is going to take over all future political discourse.

Maybe they're right. Political discourse in the US is caveman level stupid, so maybe worst-possible-troll behavior is up next.


Quote from: Novastar;791990Intel and the UAT have pulled ads off Gamasutra, due to e-mail writing campaigns.

That is a notable example of online "activism" having an actual effect offline. Though, I wonder if Intel and UAT weren't finding Gamasutra a useful marketing outlet even before GG.


Quote from: Novastar;792127...aaaaaaaaand... Anita Sarkeesian cancels speech, after death threats

I can't blame her 100%. She's a drama queen with a supposed history of dishonesty (I heard stuff, but never fact checked it)...BUT put yourself in her shoes for a second. If you really got for-realsie death threats, WTF would you not ask for extra protection? That shit in Santa Barbara went down because that whackadoodle wasn't taken seriously enough.

Of course, I'm only gonna believe the death threats were credible threats after its confirmed by law enforcement.

In some ways, I am actually surprised Anita's not trying to martyr herself. For her cause, she's actually worth more dead than alive. The dead are the most marvelous props for any cause. Heck, she'd almost be worth as much even if the shooter missed.


Quote from: Sacrosanct;792225I've never really got worked up about the journalistic intergrity part, despite it being a legitimate complaint, because I guess that's parr for the course in our society.

I agree.

Any journalism that depends on access is a joke. But without access, the readers get pissed they're not feeling close to the story. So journalism is fucked either way.

Wanna be all truthy with rock hard integrity? Great, nobody is gonna talk to you, except outcasts, has beens and those with an agenda. Good luck explaining to your readers why everyone else has better pics and better scoops.
 

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;792243This doesn't strike you as somewhat worrisome?

Nope.

The GG / anti-GG debacle is going to color any online discussion about gaming journalism or SJW tactics for the near future. That's natural. It will be used as a cudgel to silence the other side, especially on RPG.net which is yet more reason to avoid that place.

RPG.net is an asshole full of disease. We should all agree to not touch it anymore and keep wondering why our fingers are covered in pus and shit.

Yes RPGPundit, I am looking at you, stop fingering the twerking Nurgle bum.

apparition13

Quote from: Spinachcat;791917I disagree. Reddit isn't a public square. It's a corporate website. I don't expect a for-profit company to defend free speech if that speech could endanger profits.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;791934That's because it's a private site at the end of the day. Not exactly like standing on a public street and speaking your mind.

And the idea that this is okay is part of the pernicious erosion of peoples' support of the right to free speech.

It has its origin in a US Supreme Court case Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins that held that

Quoteunder the California Constitution, individuals may peacefully exercise
  • their right to free speech in parts of private shopping centers regularly held open to the public, subject to reasonable regulations adopted by the shopping centers
  • under the U.S. Constitution, states can provide their citizens with broader rights in their constitutions than under the federal Constitution, so long as those rights do not infringe on any federal constitutional rights
while also saying that this is not a federal right. In other words, the federal consititution doesn't require private entities from allowing free speech, although state constitutions may do so, they just can't do less.

This has become commonly thought of as saying that a right to free speech only applies to government violations, that it's okay for private entities to violate free speech rights; after all you can always hold your demonstration somewhere else, on public property.

Which is awesome, if there is public property. Where is the public property on the internet?

  • Twitter? Private.
  • Youtube? Private.
  • Facebook? Private.
  • Reddit? Private.
  • 4chan? Private.
  • Tumblr? Private.
  • (Rpgnet? Private.)

The fact is that every major avenue of speech on the internet is private, and virtually every internet site is private. There are no public spaces you can take your speech to,  certainly not if you want to reach a mass audience.

So great, go make your own website. Lovely,

  • Wordpress? Private.
  • Bluehost and GoDaddy? Private.

Which means unless you can set up a server and do your own hosting, you can't even set up a site for yourself that couldn't be subject to private censorship. And forget about reaching a mass audience, or even the audience you want to reach.

If the government were to say you had the right to as much free speech as you like, as long as it's in your basement, and oh yeah, if we don't like it we can cut off all your utilities, there would be an uproar. When private parties do it, meh, shrug, it's okay because they are private.

**********

Free speech is one of those "we hold these truths to be self-evident" rights which define liberty, and on which democracy depends. Liberty that stops outside of government activity isn't liberty. It doesn't matter how much free speech the government gives you if private parties can chill your speech. If you are afraid to speak because you are afraid of getting fired, or fined, or otherwise punished by private parties, you don't have the liberty to speak freely. A corporation that limits its employees speech as a condition of employment is violating its employees liberty and their right to free speech.

The idea that this is okay, that every single internet speech forum is privately owned and therefore are perfectly justified in violating their users liberty to speak freely is okay, is anti-liberty and anti-democracy. What people seem to forget is that in a democracy we are the government, and it is incumbent on all of us to act in defense of liberty rights, and that includes the owners of these sites. The only speech crime is infringing other peoples liberty to speak*. If you're advocating against someone else's right to speak, whether that be a gamer on rpgnet or Anita Sarkeesian in Utah, you're advocating against both liberty and democracy. You are acting like an autocrat, not a citizen of a free republic.
 

Will

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;792270So you think there are groups/causes that are intrinsically immune to overreaching? That there can be no legitimate doubts about or criticism of how some members of that group/cause are doing things?

I don't think any group is intrinsically immune.

There are certain phrases and views which often herald bullshit arguments, though. One is 'both sides!'

When one 'side' has hateful invective from a few folks, and the other side has pervasive social power, loads of hateful speech, and mass killers eager to do it's bidding, the argument of 'both sides do it!' comes across as a bullshit ploy.

There can be legitimate commentary. But when it overwhelmingly isn't, one is inclined to look for extraordinary evidence that THIS TIME it's not going to turn to vile crap.
This forum is great in that the moderators aren\'t jack-booted fascists.

Unfortunately, this forum is filled with total a-holes, including a bunch of rape culture enabling dillholes.

So embracing the \'no X is better than bad X,\' I\'m out of here. If you need to find me I\'m sure you can.

Werekoala

Quote from: Necrozius;791609Now it's gotten to the point of "If you're not with us, you're against us" or "you HAVE to publicly choose a side or we'll assume that you're against us".

This:

http://inurashii.tumblr.com/post/99751399160/gamergate-and-the-golden-mean-fallacy

And with that goes all of my urge to be interested in internet conversations or debates regarding social justice.

Stopped reading at "...gender and race privileges..." because anyone who uses those terms is already a hopeless head-case.
Lan Astaslem


"It's rpg.net The population there would call the Second Coming of Jesus Christ a hate crime." - thedungeondelver

Werekoala

Quote from: Novastar;791734You know, the more I think about it, the less I like the term "Social Justice Warrior" to describe these people....

This is part of my Greater Internet Pacification Theory in action - instead of marching on Selma, they can post pages of "correct" political theory about video games/gamers, YouTube tirades against (straight white men), then sit back and bask in the adulation of their fellow-travelers. They're tackling the Big Issue(s) of the Day, just like those soaked-to-the-bone, dog-torn, tear-gassed minorities back in the day. They're exactly the same! Why, it's safer this way - if they don't gather in large numbers, the Call of Duty commandos can't do the same to them!

Fuckers - get real or get lost. Fight a battle that matters.
Lan Astaslem


"It's rpg.net The population there would call the Second Coming of Jesus Christ a hate crime." - thedungeondelver

Shipyard Locked

Quote from: Will;792277When one 'side' has hateful invective from a few folks, and the other side has pervasive social power, loads of hateful speech, and mass killers eager to do it's bidding, the argument of 'both sides do it!' comes across as a bullshit ploy.

I... that... wait, I'm confused, are we talking about the "dead" and "irrelevant" gamers (according to the gaming press) or the Nazis you compared them to in your earlier post?

If you're talking about the Nazis then I totally agree, that's a bullshit ploy.

Will

Referring to the MRA douchebag who killed a bunch of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings

I've heard it lofted that Sarkeeviboo (or whatever the hell her name is) is being a hysterical nitwit making a bunch of noise about something that's clearly just hot air.

But, you know, both sides pales when one side has people metastisizing into killers and one side doesn't. (Though feel free to point out the rash of pro-feminist killers, if I missed them)
This forum is great in that the moderators aren\'t jack-booted fascists.

Unfortunately, this forum is filled with total a-holes, including a bunch of rape culture enabling dillholes.

So embracing the \'no X is better than bad X,\' I\'m out of here. If you need to find me I\'m sure you can.

Will

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;792270So you think there are groups/causes that are intrinsically immune to overreaching? That there can be no legitimate doubts about or criticism of how some members of that group/cause are doing things?

Just to revisit this one, again... the verminous SJW-flag-flying mods of RPG.net ejected me in one of the early pogroms against the infidels of rpg.net, so clearly I am at least somewhat open to the notion that causes can over-reach.
This forum is great in that the moderators aren\'t jack-booted fascists.

Unfortunately, this forum is filled with total a-holes, including a bunch of rape culture enabling dillholes.

So embracing the \'no X is better than bad X,\' I\'m out of here. If you need to find me I\'m sure you can.

ArrozConLeche

Quote from: Will;792288Referring to the MRA douchebag who killed a bunch of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings

I've heard it lofted that Sarkeeviboo (or whatever the hell her name is) is being a hysterical nitwit making a bunch of noise about something that's clearly just hot air.

But, you know, both sides pales when one side has people metastisizing into killers and one side doesn't. (Though feel free to point out the rash of pro-feminist killers, if I missed them)

Valerie Solanas just tweeted a 100% agreement with what you said.

Will

This forum is great in that the moderators aren\'t jack-booted fascists.

Unfortunately, this forum is filled with total a-holes, including a bunch of rape culture enabling dillholes.

So embracing the \'no X is better than bad X,\' I\'m out of here. If you need to find me I\'m sure you can.

Nexus

Could someone summarize what the Hell this is all about?

 Some people are sending death threats and some one committed adultery but it was the person she was in a relationship's fault and at some point video games were involved?
Remember when Illinois Nazis where a joke in the Blue Brothers movie?

Democracy, meh? (538)

 "The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn't even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it."

Machinegun Blue

Quote from: Nexus;792299Could someone summarize what the Hell this is all about?

 Some people are sending death threats and some one committed adultery but it was the person she was in a relationship's fault and at some point video games were involved?

From the outside looking in, it all looks like a huge circle jerk.

Daztur

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;792300From the outside looking in, it all looks like a huge circle jerk.

Yeah, people are flipping out because what, the video game press mostly functions as a PR conduit? They are surprised by this? They care? I'm just totally mystified. It's like people being shocked to discover gambling in Vegas.

Novastar

Gamergate in 90 seconds

Quote from: Will(Though feel free to point out the rash of pro-feminist killers, if I missed them)
You'll have to scroll down about 60% down the article, where it provides a bevy of news links (not all related to 3rd Wave Feminists, admittingly):
http://archive.today/zm68v

And of course: http://gamergateharassment.tumblr.com/

And of course, no post of mine is complete without tweets from Leigh Alexander, the Editor-at-Large for Gamasutra, the focal piece for "Gamers are Dead!"
http://i.imgur.com/WJZIrZ7.jpg
(curious, a prominent member of the anti-GG crowd, actively advocates doxxing the opposition, rather than condemning it. What's that called again? Oh, yeah. Hypocrisy.)
Quote from: dragoner;776244Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn\'t what I play rpg\'s for.