Quote from: Will;794262If you are part of a movement that anyone can join, and is structured in such a way that it can (and is) overrun with vile shitheads, then you share culpability by not going somewhere else and being part of a more organized group that doesn't tolerate shitheads.

And it's revealing here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/10/24/how-some-gamergate-supporters-say-the-controversy-could-stop-in-one-week/

'We don't want to change banners because otherwise the discussion might disappear or not have people's attention/interest.'

So in other words, it's useful to have misogynist fuckheads stir up a lot of heat and the 'true' GGers can ride that?
That makes you complicit.

You realize that's the reason a lot of progressive and independent women don't self-identify as feminists right - because so many kooks and radicals fly that banner?

Quote from: Haffrung;794264You realize that's the reason a lot of progressive and independent women don't self-identify as feminists right - because so many kooks and radicals fly that banner?

And that not all feminist agree with all the different movements in feminism.  Guess that makes them anti-feminist.

Regardless, he's just a trollish asshole, so let's not waste any more time debating the willfully ignorant.

Quote from: Will;794239... to people who disagree with certain movements in Feminism.

Hey, I LOVE the feminist movement, especially when walking behind it.

Yeah, you guys go on winning hearts and minds.

http://www.themarysue.com/joss-whedon-reddit-gamergate/

I wonder if this is how the Occupy Wall Street guys felt, when they started off with one clear message that was misrepresented by the media, and when the movement gradually attracted a relative handful of nutcases, and the media only reported on the nutcases, it eventually died...

Wonder how many of the people now decrying GG as nothing but a bunch of misogynist basement dwellers were screaming at the top of their lungs that those nutcases didn't represent their views or the real point of OWS, but that because of them they couldn't get their actual views/message represented in the media...

Hm.

Not me, I thought OWS ALSO suffered from a stupid lack of builder phase of making an actual organization rather than a mob that antisemitic douchebags and general anarchists could just faff about in.

Maybe, but we live in an age of 24 hour news cycles and instant social media response. We don't have the luxury of building a grass-roots movement over the course of weeks/months/years - without being called astroturf, of course.

Like it or not, this is the future - insta-movements with insta-supporters/detractors and tons of hyperbole and vitriol on all fronts. The old way of changing things is just that, the old way. Which is why things will likely never change, or if they do it will be very slowly with tons of butt-hurt to go around. And since leftists have control of our education system at basically all levels, they will eventually win, which was part of the plan all along I suspect. Get 'em while they're young and all that.

This is why direct Democracy is, was, and always will be a Bad Idea, at least on a national/societal level.

Ah, Internet, you truly are the great Social Pacifier.

That's why various conservative backlashes don't depress me, because it's pretty much a reaction to liberalism winning.

Gay marriage, pot legalization, trans issues, it's amazing what has happened in just my lifetime.

Quote from: Will;794262If you are part of a movement that anyone can join, and is structured in such a way that it can (and is) overrun with vile shitheads, then you share culpability by not going somewhere else and being part of a more organized group that doesn't tolerate shitheads.

...and the conversation has gone circular, without Will providing any evidence for his claims.

What evidence would you consider 'proper'?

In other news, Daddy Cam Banks is warning you not to tie tabletop games to #gamergate or you will never work again in this town.*

Poser from the Outrage Brigade shows authoritarian streak. News at 11.

https://m.google.com/app/basic/stream/z124w52gfzqwyvrdb23rtp5xyxadyhfae04

Do not dare use #tabletopgate or risk the selfrighteous wrath of Daddy Cam Banks.

Quote from: Will;794283What evidence would you consider 'proper'?

Something other than just repeating the same claim over and over would be a start.

Oh hey, Arroz, you yet again mischaracterize what someone said! At least it's extra obvious since the link and your 'summation' are right there.

'No publisher is going to want to deal with this crap from you' isn't authoritarian. It's, at worst, venting and hystrionic.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;794289Something other than just repeating the same claim over and over would be a start.

Uh huh. BS games again.

'I'm not going to say what constitutes evidence so I and others can nitpick everything about it, shift the goalposts constantly until we can get you to give up.'

Nope, not playing that game.

Quote from: Will;794239I attempted, but when people can't or won't even understand basic stuff that I'm saying, what's the point?

So talk to me, don't talk to them.

QuoteBy 'anti-feminist,' by the way, what I'm saying is that GamerGate is about decrying some type of feminism. This ranges from the misogynist fucktards who think women should shut up and get out of gaming to people who disagree with certain movements in Feminism.

Re. bold: this implies that anyone who disagrees with "certain movements" in feminism is anti-feminist. Is this what you mean?

QuoteI think it's totally possible to be a feminist who is concerned about Sarkeesian and so on and considers themself a GamerGater.
I think it's _fucking stupid_ to associate with GamerGate as a feminist, but it's possible.

Fair enough.

Quote from: Will;794262If you are part of a movement that anyone can join, and is structured in such a way that it can (and is) overrun with vile shitheads, then you share culpability by not going somewhere else and being part of a more organized group that doesn't tolerate shitheads.

And it's revealing here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/10/24/how-some-gamergate-supporters-say-the-controversy-could-stop-in-one-week/

'We don't want to change banners because otherwise the discussion might disappear or not have people's attention/interest.'

So in other words, it's useful to have misogynist fuckheads stir up a lot of heat and the 'true' GGers can ride that?
That makes you complicit.

They are making a pragmatic decision that getting the message out and dealing with the fuckheads is less bad an option than not getting the message out (because no one is listening to other channels) and not dealing with the fuckheads. From their standpoint it's a reasonable tradeoff, from yours, since you would rather not deal with their message in the first place, having reasonable GGers disappear from sight isn't a concern. In other words, because you don't give a shit about whether or not they can get their message out, the decision for you is between being associated with fuckheads or not, for them it also includes getting their message out.

Quote from: Will;794276Not me, I thought OWS ALSO suffered from a stupid lack of builder phase of making an actual organization rather than a mob that antisemitic douchebags and general anarchists could just faff about in.

You have the same attitude about the Arab Spring?

3 months ago I would totally have listened to an argument why Sarkeesian and other SJWs are going too far, how, and why. Particularly since I got banned from SJW haven, TBP.

Right now? It's VERY hard to take those arguments seriously when they are surrounded by women getting death threats and doxxing. It's easy to read it as 'we're trying to rationalize our hatred of women.'

I think it's not a pragmatic decision at all (with shades of lazy slacktivism), because yes, GamerGate is getting way more airtime. But to the vast populace unfamiliar with (and generally disinterested in) gaming journalism, what is most visible and easy to understand is a bunch of women talking about how gaming is hostile to women and then getting victimized over it.

I wish GamerGate would change not because I agree with almost anyone in it, but because while I think feminism will ultimately 'win,' this is going to be the nastiest and most damaging way to win.
Also, I think there are legitimate criticisms of some forms of feminism that are now pretty much fucked for a generation.


As for Arab Spring... I honestly don't have an opinion and haven't paid much attention to it. It's somewhat different when you have governments and militaries quite willing to shoot lots of people.