Presented for your consideration:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2014/10/25/While-the-Media-Slanders-Gamers-as-Terrorists-GamerGate-Is-Hunting-Trolls-and-Abusers

Quote from: Will;794054Anti-feminist: Don't agree with or like Feminism and is working against it.

This ranges from flat-out misogynist privileged dillholes to more nuanced 'equality is great but the Feminist movement has become isolated and reactionary and stupid.'

The common factor, though, is being opposed to Feminism.

And so where does "equality is great, feminism is a great movement, but like many movements, has a very vocal, extremist wing that probably does more harm then good to the cause" range in that spectrum?  You know, the vast excluded middle of what you probably call "anti-feminist". :rolleyes:

Quote from: Will;794065Also, re: my comments about anti-feminism and misogyny:

I did say, much earlier, that GG is rife with misogyny. And I think it's overwhelmed by it. But I think that is a result of the core anti-feminism.

Because while anti-feminism doesn't have to be misogynistic, it's misogyny bait, much like men's rights. And like discussing border policy is racism bait.

If you want to prevent misogyny (or racism) to take over your movement, you need way more structure than 'bandwagon anyone can jump onto.'

You know Will, you keep saying "anti-feminism", why don't you define what the hell you mean by it. What policies that "feminists" espouse can someone disagree with and still be considered a feminist? What policy disagreements do you think cross the line to anti-feminist? Be specific.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;793925Possibly.  And I agree that the most vocal SJWs have hijacked a legitimate cause just to slander people they don't like.

But here's the thing.  This gamergate stuff?  Look at this forum alone.  We have people saying that the assholes who are harassing and threatening people don't represent the gamergate movement as a whole, we shouldn't tar everyone, etc.  And those are all true things.  But what I haven't seen is an actual effort by pro gamergate people to denounce this behavior whenever they see it.

I've made it very clear in the past just how much disdain I have for much of the SJW clique because their entire "argument' is to fight against harassment and doxing and threats while at the same time ignoring their side making threats, doxing, and harassing others.  That level of hypocrisy just pisses me off.  So if I am to have any integrity, and if pro GG folks want to take any sort of high ground, we must immediately and quickly shut down the misogynists and dickbags.  We cannot simply just ignore them while saying, "Hey man, don't judge me like them because we aren't all like that." or "I don't condone that behavior" only when asked or accused.  We must be proactive in addressing this.

Otherwise we aren't much different than the SJW clique.

It's just like Tea Party members should be the first to shut down racists because they're the first to see it.  And like protestors should be the first people to shut down vandalizing anarchists.  If you don't want to be accused of approving of dickbaggery, police your own group and shut down the dickbags.

Quite.

jg

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;794083First off, you don't have to agree with everything some tumblrina or radfem says, or else be considered anti-feminist. If disagreeing that all heterosexual sex is rape, for example, makes me anti feminist then I'll gladly be considered that. Likewise with other half baked ideas. Start the purge.

Second, pointing out that there is in fact a conflict of interest and a pattern of deceit with the Literally Who situation is not misogyny. That's the kind of easy, thought stopping label that cults love to use in order to prevent people from ever questioning things. That's not even counting the fact that anger has been boiling before even Literally Who entered the public mind.

Third, how do you even begin to enforce who can use a hash tag?

#hashtagpolice

Quote from: apparition13;794087You know Will, you keep saying "anti-feminism", why don't you define what the hell you mean by it. What policies that "feminists" espouse can someone disagree with and still be considered a feminist? What policy disagreements do you think cross the line to anti-feminist? Be specific.

If he defined it exactly, he couldn't use it like a club, blanket, umbrella, paintbrush, etc...

In other words, if you don't know what he means by anti-feminist - you're an anti-feminist.

Quote from: Werekoala;794085Presented for your consideration:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2014/10/25/While-the-Media-Slanders-Gamers-as-Terrorists-GamerGate-Is-Hunting-Trolls-and-Abusers

Strange Days Indeed. (/Lennon)

Meanwhile, our own SJWs throw out a Newsweek article working data to slander the pro-GG side, once against demonstrating that they're like the dumbasses in the Green Zone thinking that keeping the media message high means that they're winning- while the countryside tunes them out and moves on without them.

Quote from: Werekoala;793902One thing we should all bear in mind about this and other SJW issues... we should all just shut up, relax, and let it happen - it'll be over soon.

Yep. Outside certain zones of the internet, they're largely irrelevant. Get off your computer, take a walk, grab a coffee, and read a good book. Call your friends over and play a game. Level up your character in Skyrim. Have a beer and watch a hockey game. You'll find the SJW crusade has not touched or affected you in any way.

Quote from: Werekoala;793929a) Computer science =/= gaming or video game development - if you want correlation = causation, check the dates in that graph with H1B visas from, oh, India? Might open your eyes a bit more. Also, holy shit look at all the female Engineers - Dilbert and Wally will be ecstatic!

And so what if a lot more people who design video games are male than female? Women now make up clear majorities of graduates in law and medicine. Not to mention longstanding majorities in journalism and education. Only absolute fucking dorks lacking all perspective would regard designing video games as more influential than law, medicine, education, and journalism.

Quote from: Rincewind1;793990The "Muslims were much more tolerant than Christians" is a bit of an adage more than actual truth, as matters were much more complicated. The original caliphate's dynastic upheaval was caused by a civil war partially motivated by repression of Shia and religious minorities. In general, the tolerance was born less of faith, and more of prevalence of Greek and Roman influenced cultures that they have conquered and integrated into, as well as proliferation of ancient philosophy and culture in said regions, as compared to ancients' influences decline at that time in Europe. The overall wealth of the lands at the time helped a lot as well - at the time of Abbasid caliphate, Europe was just a poor, backwards stinkhole of the world, which had to rely on expansive trade to buy any luxury goods.

Sure. But it's no small thing that the Christians of the Mediterranean (North Africa, Egypt, Syria, and Asia Minor) who were conquered in the first burst of Islamic expansion were perfectly content to accept the Arabs as rulers, and found them preferable to the rule of the Christian Byzantine Emperors. Even in matters of religion things calmed down under Arab rule compared to the fanatical divisions within Christianity at the time, when various schisms (Arianism, Monothelitism, etc.) fueled savage sectarian rioting and strife. Early Christianity wasn't exactly a happy-clappy brotherhood of shared values. And when Christian rulers of that era conquered non-Christian lands, such as Persia, they were most certainly on a religious crusade, and destroyed every pagan temple they came across.

I am so disappointed in the trad-gaming folks who've gonr anti-GG. Some of them I am acquainted with, and yet they too display such gross incompetence in seeing GamerGate for what it is due to being far too wrapped up in the SJW paradigm. They're far quicker to block/silence/etc. dissenting opinions than the pro-GG folks I encounter, and are so cocksure of their positions that they can't see how they could fail--not be wrong, but fail to succeed--and they're talking like General Westmorland did in Vietnam. I won't be sympathetic when they realize that their media-centric shaming and meme-based mockery not only fails to get their desired results, but ends up pushing others to the pro-GG side due to the Streisand Effect.

Upon further reading, I disagree with the title of this thread. The most interesting thing to come out of Gamergate is Vivian James.

Quote from: Will;794054Anti-feminist: Don't agree with or like Feminism and is working against it.

This ranges from flat-out misogynist privileged dillholes to more nuanced 'equality is great but the Feminist movement has become isolated and reactionary and stupid.'

The common factor, though, is being opposed to Feminism.

And if feminism didn't mean a bajillion different things to different people, that would mean something.

I actually like a lot of feminists. I read many of them. There's also a lot of them I hate. Its just like anything: Christian, Muslim, Athiest, Republican, Democrat, Liberal, Conservative, Male, female: none of it has anything to do with whether or not the person is an asshole.

I won't identify as "feminist" or "pro-feminist" because I wont associate with the ridiculous extremists that use that term to justify them being horrible to other people. Just as I'm against misandry, but  would never call myself a "Men's Rights Advocate" because there are just too many idiotic twits who hide under that phrase to get their sexism on.


I haven't yet come across damning proof that Gamergate is mostly or even largely about sexism. I hear a lot of people saying that, but no one backing up that claim.

Within an hour of seeing that Newsweek piece, there is an answer: Newsweek's methodology was not competent.

Quote from: TristramEvans;794111I haven't yet come across damning proof that Gamergate is mostly or even largely about sexism. I hear a lot of people saying that, but no one backing up that claim.

I agree with you.  The closet you get are people being fed up by the actions of the social justice warriors that had taken over gaming journalists which to be honest does create a lot of hate.  Speaking to a wall is more productive than the anti-gamergate because the wall isn't activity trying to shut you down.

Which is why I called out Will on this.  Sure I could be polite, but people been showing him evidence.  He is literally choosing to ignore it and focus on what he is saying as if it is truth when it is proven other wise.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;794083First off, you don't have to agree with everything some tumblrina or radfem says, or else be considered anti-feminist. If disagreeing that all heterosexual sex is rape, for example, makes me anti feminist then I'll gladly be considered that. Likewise with other half baked ideas. Start the purge.

So, Arroz, hypotheticals aside, do you identify as a feminist? Or would you say no, for example because you think feminism has been co-opted and is now harmful?

More broadly, how many pro-GamerGaters here identify as feminist?

As for the hashtag, I think it's a tricky to identify with a hashtag unless it has some sort of defined set of values or definitional statement. I consider the tag name itself stupid, like most "Gate" tags such as D&D5's ConsultancyGate. Nathan Grayson's supposed corruption in covering Depression Quest is in no way comparable to Watergate, especially since his positive mentions predate his relationship with the author. I'm willing to believe that there are some well-meaning people posting under the tag, but that's not going to get me to sign up to it.

Oh and this is nice:

https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/525793436025118721