Quote from: Will;794010The vast bulk of GG is essentially anti-feminism. Ethics in gaming journalism is a symptom of this perceived problem.

The number of people who are GG and not anti-feminist is vanishingly small (I assume there are some, but I haven't actually seen any yet)

Re: Islam
The Iberian Moors were very tolerant (relatively speaking), and under the Umayyad Caliphate, Jews congregated to Spain (for a time, nearly all Jews worldwide lived in Spain), and so on.

But they were ethnically strongly Berber, and had some elements of democracy. Moorish Iberia was a place of learning and (relative) tolerance.

They have almost 0 resemblance to the radicalized arabic Islam of the modern era.


(As an aside, I've sometimes contemplated a Cthulhu game set in Al-Andalus)

LOL WUT?

Seeing how at the time of Umayyid Caliphate of Cordoba there actually exists a Jewish Kingdom of Semien as well as the famed Khazar conversion to Judaism occurs, I am certain any claim of "almost every Jew in the world living there" is pure bovine faeces.

QuoteTristram:
Ok, it's one of two differences.
The other difference is that 'Gamergater' is a longer word than 'Muslim.'
Other than that there are no differences at all.
Stupid GamerGaters in their burkas.

Well, there's that slight issue of people cutting infidels' heads off. Seeing how you argued that MRAs have an army of terrorists willing to go in blazes based on one lunatic only semi - affiliated with MRAs, I am surprised you do not assume that every mosque must have a terrorist cell ready to go off at any moment's notice from Zubari (or however he's spelled).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;794011While people romanticize it today, and there is good reason to use use lots of caveats when talking about toleration during Islam at its height, the toleration does in fact stem from their scripture (though like you point out there are other factors worth considering). But this is a very basic concept of Islam that led to their ability to co-exist with the other Abrahamic faiths. It is the notion of Jews and Christians as people of the book that enabled it. It was by no means all roses and sunshine (there was conflict and violence over religious differences) but on the whole it was more tolerant toward Christians and Jews than Europeans were at the time toward Jews and Muslims. Again that had to be understood for what if was: Jews and Christians were still second class citizens and had to pay a special tax; anyone outside that tradition stemming from Judaism was not covered by this though.

Actually, they kind of were, though much later on - the Mughalis experienced with Jizya on Hindus, though ultimately gave up due to the sheer risk of popular revolt. Then again, speaking of Mughalis and the famed tolerance - they demonstrate very clearly that the Islam Empires tolerance very often depended, just like in Europe, on attitudes and teachings the ruler adhered to - the militarisation of Sikhs occurred because one of the Mughal Emperors decided that it is time for Allah and only Allah.

Quote from: Will;794010The vast bulk of GG is essentially anti-feminism.

I'm curious to know exactly what you consider "essentially anti-feminism".

I've got even money spread between "circular logic" and "deliberate ignorance", but I'm always happy to be surprised.

Quote from: apparition13;793998And your point is what?

His point appears to be that some people who play RPGs are assholes, so all RPG players are assholes and RPGs should be banned.

People killed in North America by Muslims this week: 2

People killed worldwide by GamerGaters this week: 0

Yeah, exactly the same.

I'm having difficulty finding a solid quote on where most Jews lived in the Medieval period, so I'll cross that out. I had read it somewhere, but I don't know if 'most Jews lived in Iberia in the 10th century' is even close to accurate, my bad.

The following is kind of interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain

(The treatment varied a lot, regionally and over time)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;794050I'm curious to know exactly what you consider "essentially anti-feminism".

I've got even money spread between "circular logic" and "deliberate ignorance", but I'm always happy to be surprised.

Anti-feminist: Don't agree with or like Feminism and is working against it.

This ranges from flat-out misogynist privileged dillholes to more nuanced 'equality is great but the Feminist movement has become isolated and reactionary and stupid.'

The common factor, though, is being opposed to Feminism.

Quote from: S'mon;794046Also, being anti-feminist does not make one sexist or misogynist or patriarchal, whatever Will says.

Good thing I didn't say any of those things, then.

Quote from: Rincewind1;794047owever he's spelled).



Actually, they kind of were, though much later on - the Mughalis experienced with Jizya on Hindus, though ultimately gave up due to the sheer risk of popular revolt. Then again, speaking of Mughalis and the famed tolerance - they demonstrate very clearly that the Islam Empires tolerance very often depended, just like in Europe, on attitudes and teachings the ruler adhered to - the militarisation of Sikhs occurred because one of the Mughal Emperors decided that it is time for Allah and only Allah.

Sure this is why I mentioned the schools of jurisprudence in my next post. I was just working with the most narrow interpretation possible there because I didn't want to overstate my point but it certainly came to encompass more groups and many of the instances people point to are times when more groups were included. And like you point out the specific period matters. I am just trying to point out there is a solid basis in Islamic scripture for the practice of toleration you saw during its height. It shouldn't be confused with modern secular ideas of toleration though.

I forget the guy's name (he had some ironic name), but there was some muslim ruler of Jerusalem that forced Jews and Christians to convert and all muslims to pray toward wherever he was standing because he was Allah.

I think his subjects ended up killing him a lot.

Also, re: my comments about anti-feminism and misogyny:

I did say, much earlier, that GG is rife with misogyny. And I think it's overwhelmed by it. But I think that is a result of the core anti-feminism.

Because while anti-feminism doesn't have to be misogynistic, it's misogyny bait, much like men's rights. And like discussing border policy is racism bait.

If you want to prevent misogyny (or racism) to take over your movement, you need way more structure than 'bandwagon anyone can jump onto.'

Quote from: Will;794065Also, re: my comments about anti-feminism and misogyny:

I did say, much earlier, that GG is rife with misogyny. And I think it's overwhelmed by it. But I think that is a result of the core anti-feminism.

Because while anti-feminism doesn't have to be misogynistic, it's misogyny bait, much like men's rights. And like discussing border policy is racism bait.

If you want to prevent misogyny (or racism) to take over your movement, you need way more structure than 'bandwagon anyone can jump onto.'

Insurgencies don't work that way, and they do just fine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/10/24/how-some-gamergate-supporters-say-the-controversy-could-stop-in-one-week/

This is the two guys, one with a gun, as told by a 'reasonable' GG supporter.

In other words, misogyny (she slept her way to a better review!) kicked things off, stirred up the fires, and GGers are unwilling to change their banner because they are afraid that without the fire they won't be able to get their message out. The fire they say they don't condone or agree with.

Well, I'll agree with Walker that it has some of the hallmarks of insurgencies. Or terrorists.

Quote from: Will;794071http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/10/24/how-some-gamergate-supporters-say-the-controversy-could-stop-in-one-week/

This is the two guys, one with a gun, as told by a 'reasonable' GG supporter.

In other words, misogyny (she slept her way to a better review!) kicked things off, stirred up the fires, and GGers are unwilling to change their banner because they are afraid that without the fire they won't be able to get their message out. The fire they say they don't condone or agree with.

Well, I'll agree with Walker that it has some of the hallmarks of insurgencies. Or terrorists.

I missed the part where two people were killed, one shot. Do I need to pay to see the whole article?

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;794066Insurgencies don't work that way, and they do just fine.

But concern trolling does work like that.

Um, no, misogyny did not kick things off - guys getting their rocks off and then writing positive articles did. If she'd slept with 5 different guys who did NOT proceed to write positive articles about her and her game(s), then we never would have heard of any of this.

TBH this is more about the 5 guys, not her, however "journalistic ethics" isn't neeeeearly as fun to fight as "OMG YOU GUYS MISOGYNY!" - again, showing how SJWs will use the tried and true tactic of deflecting from the actual issue at hand in order to advance their own agenda.

FWIW, I have a degree in journalism, and although it was many, MANY years ago, I do believe that we were taught about ethical behavior in reporting. Part of the problem (a big part) is that video game "journalists", for the most part, have never had formal training/education about what it means to be a journalist - they're just glorified bloggers.

First off, you don't have to agree with everything some tumblrina or radfem says, or else be considered anti-feminist. If disagreeing that all heterosexual sex is rape, for example, makes me anti feminist then I'll gladly be considered that. Likewise with other half baked ideas. Start the purge.

Second, pointing out that there is in fact a conflict of interest and a pattern of deceit with the Literally Who situation is not misogyny. That's the kind of easy, thought stopping label that cults love to use in order to prevent people from ever questioning things. That's not even counting the fact that anger has been boiling before even Literally Who entered the public mind.

Third, how do you even begin to enforce who can use a hash tag?