Quote from: Werekoala;793941The difference between this situation and GamerGate is that, broadly, the goals of the Islamic Terrorists and the Muslim Religion are largely the same, while those of GG nutcases and GG as a whole are not.

Islam is an evangelical religion, in that they desire (in fact, insist) that the population of the entire world be converted to Islam. It's just that the terroristic faction of the religion employs a bit more, shall we say, percussive persuasion to the Infidels.

Islam as a whole has a set of principles and texts, various hierarchical organization, and centuries of history by which to judge it. Historically, Islam has tended to be militant but also relatively tolerant of other beliefs compared to Christianity. So a Muslim country would invade, but after invasion would allow other religions to be practiced - with moderately coercive conversion efforts like non-believers paying higher tax rates than believers. Christian countries have tended to be roughly as warlike, and more harsh on unbelievers - with forced conversions and penalties for overt disbelief.

These days, there are certainly differences between Christian countries like Ethiopia and Rwanda and Muslim countries like Somalia and Yemen, but more often people tend to compare first-world Christian countries with third-world Muslim countries.

As for GamerGate, there's seems to be no set of principles. There is only a one-word hashtag that likens Nathan Grayson's supposedly-corrupt coverage of Depression Quest to Nixon and Watergate, which I consider to be utterly stupid. To me, it just seems like more manufactured outrage, like ConsultancyGate with its outrage over Zak S and Pundit (which I was also opposed to).

Quote from: CRKrueger;793962Keep going Will - you do it long enough, awfulpurple will have to take you back.

If there was any justice in the (SJW) world.

Quote from: jhkim;793965Islam as a whole has a set of principles and texts...

Please don't feed the trolls.

Quote from: Will;793939The difference between this situation and Islamic Terrorism is that, broadly, the goals of the GG criminals and the GG non-criminals are largely the same, while those of Islamic terrorists and Islamic non-terrorists are not.

...


Seriously? That's the difference?

Quote from: TristramEvans;793989...


Seriously? That's the difference?

Well it's certainly not the amount of beards worn by each side.

Quote from: jhkim;793965Islam as a whole has a set of principles and texts, various hierarchical organization, and centuries of history by which to judge it. Historically, Islam has tended to be militant but also relatively tolerant of other beliefs compared to Christianity. So a Muslim country would invade, but after invasion would allow other religions to be practiced - with moderately coercive conversion efforts like non-believers paying higher tax rates than believers. Christian countries have tended to be roughly as warlike, and more harsh on unbelievers - with forced conversions and penalties for overt disbelief.

The "Muslims were much more tolerant than Christians" is a bit of an adage more than actual truth, as matters were much more complicated. The original caliphate's dynastic upheaval was caused by a civil war partially motivated by repression of Shia and religious minorities. In general, the tolerance was born less of faith, and more of prevalence of Greek and Roman influenced cultures that they have conquered and integrated into, as well as proliferation of ancient philosophy and culture in said regions, as compared to ancients' influences decline at that time in Europe. The overall wealth of the lands at the time helped a lot as well - at the time of Abbasid caliphate, Europe was just a poor, backwards stinkhole of the world, which had to rely on expansive trade to buy any luxury goods.

They were more tolerant not because of their faith, but because they were subjected to a higher, more tolerant culture at the time. Don't forget that things also changed later on, even within the Turkish Empire - yes, Jizya  tax was a way to keep your faith, but you were practically banned from holding any office (in theory at least), and your children could be conscripted into military slavery.

Quote from: Will;793926Going to break my 'f this' separation for linking purposes:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/10/22/357826882/pew-gaming-is-least-welcoming-online-space-for-women

And your point is what?

Quote from: Will;793939The difference between this situation and Islamic Terrorism is that, broadly, the goals of the GG criminals and SOME of the GG non-criminals are largely the same, while those of Islamic terrorists and SOME Islamic non-terrorists are not.

Fixed your typo. Now repeat after me, sombunall: some, but not all. Sombunall GG are sincere about being fed up with payolla journalism, sombunall GG are fed up with people telling them what they like is wrong, sombunall GG are harrassers, sombunall GG support harrassers, sombunall -GG are sincere, sombunall -GG are fundamentalists who want to impose their wordview on others, sombunall games journalists are "corrupt", sombunall people on both sides have legitimate points and are getting drowned out by polarized ideologues.

The vast bulk of GG is essentially anti-feminism. Ethics in gaming journalism is a symptom of this perceived problem.

The number of people who are GG and not anti-feminist is vanishingly small (I assume there are some, but I haven't actually seen any yet)

Re: Islam
The Iberian Moors were very tolerant (relatively speaking), and under the Umayyad Caliphate, Jews congregated to Spain (for a time, nearly all Jews worldwide lived in Spain), and so on.

But they were ethnically strongly Berber, and had some elements of democracy. Moorish Iberia was a place of learning and (relative) tolerance.

They have almost 0 resemblance to the radicalized arabic Islam of the modern era.


(As an aside, I've sometimes contemplated a Cthulhu game set in Al-Andalus)

Tristram:
Ok, it's one of two differences.
The other difference is that 'Gamergater' is a longer word than 'Muslim.'
Other than that there are no differences at all.
Stupid GamerGaters in their burkas.

Quote from: Rincewind1;793990They were more tolerant not because of their faith, but because they were subjected to a higher, more tolerant culture at the time. Don't forget that things also changed later on, even within the Turkish Empire - yes, Jizya  tax was a way to keep your faith, but you were practically banned from holding any office (in theory at least), and your children could be conscripted into military slavery.

While people romanticize it today, and there is good reason to use use lots of caveats when talking about toleration during Islam at its height, the toleration does in fact stem from their scripture (though like you point out there are other factors worth considering). But this is a very basic concept of Islam that led to their ability to co-exist with the other Abrahamic faiths. It is the notion of Jews and Christians as people of the book that enabled it. It was by no means all roses and sunshine (there was conflict and violence over religious differences) but on the whole it was more tolerant toward Christians and Jews than Europeans were at the time toward Jews and Muslims. Again that had to be understood for what if was: Jews and Christians were still second class citizens and had to pay a special tax; anyone outside that tradition stemming from Judaism was not covered by this though.

Yeah, I'm saying 'relatively' a lot because a second class citizen is WAY BETTER than being straight up tortured into conversion or buried in a pit for being a different religion.

(I found out recently that some of my ancestors were likely converted Spanish Jews. Huh!)

Quote from: Will;794010Re: Islam
The Iberian Moors were very tolerant (relatively speaking), and under the Umayyad Caliphate, Jews congregated to Spain (for a time, nearly all Jews worldwide lived in Spain), and so on.

But they were ethnically strongly Berber, and had some elements of democracy. Moorish Iberia was a place of learning and (relative) tolerance.

They have almost 0 resemblance to the radicalized arabic Islam of the modern era.


(As an aside, I've sometimes contemplated a Cthulhu game set in Al-Andalus)

This is because there are different schools of jurisprudence in Islam. The modern Salafi groups you hear so much about have a lot more in common with the Hanbali school, which even in medieval Islam could be quite strict and conservative. On the subject of a Dhimmis the schools have defined what groups are included differently and proscribed differing treatments as well.

Quote from: Will;794018Yeah, I'm saying 'relatively' a lot because a second class citizen is WAY BETTER than being straight up tortured into conversion or buried in a pit for being a different religion.

(I found out recently that some of my ancestors were likely converted Spanish Jews. Huh!)

I agree it was way better and I am not trying to undermine the idea that it was a better way to live than what you had in Europe at the time. Just trying to add some clarity on these points.

The pro-GG side has Christina Hoff Summers, and she's turning those near her in the media around.

Quote from: Will;794010The vast bulk of GG is essentially anti-feminism.

Disagreeing with Critical (Feminist) Theory interpretations of female representation in media does not necessarily make someone anti-feminist. Hell, "cheesecake is inherently misogynistic" is to a large extent why Zak wound up getting banned from rpgnet.

The difference in this case is that people objecting to CFTIoFRiM can't be banned from everywhere, are fighting back, and are getting labled anti-feminist because the object to an aspect of, even in academia, disputed and controversial suppositions about media representation effects and society.

There may be some folks objecting to the particular type of feminism.

The vast bulk of what I'm reading from GG folks is anti-feminist, and the criminal misogynist fuckheads are different in volume, not kind.

Quote from: apparition13;794035Disagreeing with Critical (Feminist) Theory interpretations of female representation in media does not necessarily make someone anti-feminist.  

Also, being anti-feminist does not make one sexist or misogynist or patriarchal, whatever Will says.

A (liberal, female) anti-feminist.