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Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests

Started by Shipyard Locked, October 08, 2014, 12:16:06 PM

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jhkim

#225
October 21, 2014, 07:30:49 PM
Quote from: Novastar;793239Are you really alright with only one view, only one, being presented by the press?

Also remember, this is not a list amongst peers or even fellow journalists in a publication; these are supposedly competing magazines, colluding to provide a single frame of reference.
I am not in favor of pressuring editors or authors to be fair and balanced and provide multiple viewpoints on any given issue. I associate this with arguments over creationism and/or climate change, with some people demanding that their side of the argument be covered.

That's a choice for the editors, and like everyone else, they have free speech and are not required to express any particular viewpoint. If there is some sort of money exchanged or threats involved, then that would be unethical corruption - but editors are free to argue and make points with each other in private discussion. Again, that's part of free speech.

If you don't like the current press, then you should read and support alternative press. I don't like what FOX News is saying, but I absolutely support their right to continue to exist and provide their viewpoint (except for times when they lie).

Novastar

#226
October 21, 2014, 08:30:02 PM Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 08:34:12 PM by Novastar
Quote from: jhkim;793244I am not in favor of pressuring editors or authors to be fair and balanced and provide multiple viewpoints on any given issue. I associate this with arguments over creationism and/or climate change, with some people demanding that their side of the argument be covered.
There's a difference between "fair & balanced", and just admitting the other side's position; currently it's split between negative dismissal ("They say it's about "unthical journalism", as if that could be a thing!") and outright not even giving us that courtesy ("GamerGaters says it's about something else, but it's ALL JUST MISOGYNY!")

I can say a fair number of anti-GG's are concerned over allegations of misogyny, and it's a valid concern. A fair number of trolls are in both camps, trying to poison the debate. I also think the normal advocates for Feminism in video games are fairly radicalized, and maybe not the best people to make your case, as they are profiteering quite well off the issue.

QuoteThat's a choice for the editors, and like everyone else, they have free speech and are not required to express any particular viewpoint.
True dat.

QuoteIf there is some sort of money exchanged or threats involved, then that would be unethical corruption...
And it's pretty obvious, from the Indie scene to the AAA publishers, that is happening. One article even mentions a PR guy estimating that buying a review costs about $550 on the West Coast. Damn.

Quote- but editors are free to argue and make points with each other in private discussion. Again, that's part of free speech.
But not the part when they not only start telling their own people what to write, but others not associated with the publication. There is a heavy implication that if anyone wrote about GamerGate, they would be blacklisted.

Hell, they already blacklisted this guy:
http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2014/10/gamergate-destructoid-corruption-and-ruined-careers/

QuoteIf you don't like the current press, then you should read and support alternative press. I don't like what FOX News is saying, but I absolutely support their right to continue to exist and provide their viewpoint (except for times when they lie).
I have.
I've also sent e-mails to Kotaku and Gamasutra's advertisers, letting them know my disappointment with those publications, and recommending if they want to reach me as a consumer, they might want to stop advertising at "Gamers are Dead" websites in favor of Tech Raptor, NicheGamer, GoodGamers.us, etc
Quote from: dragoner;776244Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn\'t what I play rpg\'s for.

Ratman_tf

#227
October 21, 2014, 09:30:23 PM
Quote from: jhkim;793244If you don't like the current press, then you should read and support alternative press. I don't like what FOX News is saying, but I absolutely support their right to continue to exist and provide their viewpoint (except for times when they lie).

And consumers have the right to say "Piss off, dickheads", and take their money with them, and make sure the advertisers know why they're going.

If Kotaku wants to yark about how awesome feminism is and how shitty gamers are, they can do it on their own dime.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

TristramEvans

#228
October 21, 2014, 11:57:51 PM Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 03:12:46 AM by TristramEvans
Um, doesnt just about every group of professionals have private mailing lists where they dont have to deal with fanboys? I mean, comics professionals have several, theres at least one professional authors one that I know of, I assume hundreds more. Why is this a big deal?


In addition, anyone who thinks that gaming journalists are actually "journalists" in an investigative-reporting, non-biased way is kinda deluding themselves. Its like thinking White Dwarf is a real magazine, not just a monthly catalogue. These people are advertising opinions, nothing more. there's no "stories" in gaming journalism, just a bunch of promotions for games a reviewer likes, and complaints about games they don't. I don't want unbiased reviews. I remember when there was this big call for unbiased rpg reviews at RPGnet (back when it was still about RPGs), and I read these reviews that went to great pains to be unbiased, and without fail, 100% of the time, these were the most boring, pointless reviews on the planet. If I read someone's review I want thier personal opinion, no holds barred. I dont have to agree with an opinion to find it entertaining.

Why is this group not going after Fox News if they're really concerned about ethics in journalism, a news source that actually impacts society? This all smacks of slactivism again to me.

jhkim

#229
October 22, 2014, 12:54:23 PM
Quote from: Novastar;793248There's a difference between "fair & balanced", and just admitting the other side's position; currently it's split between negative dismissal ("They say it's about "unthical journalism", as if that could be a thing!") and outright not even giving us that courtesy ("GamerGaters says it's about something else, but it's ALL JUST MISOGYNY!")

I can say a fair number of anti-GG's are concerned over allegations of misogyny, and it's a valid concern. A fair number of trolls are in both camps, trying to poison the debate. I also think the normal advocates for Feminism in video games are fairly radicalized, and maybe not the best people to make your case, as they are profiteering quite well off the issue.
From what I read, the main complaints seem to be primarily about how game journalists are all a bunch of feminists conspiring to push their political views onto others and not representing the views of many gamers. As you say, that might not be courteous to non-feminists, but it isn't inherently corruption or unethical. They have no obligation to represent the views of any particular gamers.

I certainly believe that there is corruption and lack of ethics within game journalism, such as paying for reviews, but that doesn't seem to be what GamerGate posters are focused on. I have seen no indication at all that the anti-GamerGaters are in favor of paying for reviews, or being soft on that. The reason that they are opposed to GamerGate is because it is focused on other stuff.

Novastar

#230
October 22, 2014, 01:14:21 PM
Quote from: TristramEvans;793282Um, doesnt just about every group of professionals have private mailing lists where they dont have to deal with fanboys? I mean, comics professionals have several, theres at least one professional authors one that I know of, I assume hundreds more. Why is this a big deal?
If it's an information item only type of thread ("Hey! George Perez's art on is awesome!" or "George Perez is going to start drawing for !"), it's no harm, no foul. BUT...when you start asking your competition (which is admittingly your peers, as well) about disciplinary actions, or openly advocate on the mailing list not to hire someone (blacklisting), or agree not to run a story because it could damage your relationship with a publisher (not releasing that EA Australia got hacked for 40,000 accounts), you've crossed a line.<br><br><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote</cite>In addition, anyone who thinks that gaming journalists are actually "journalists" in an investigative-reporting, non-biased way is kinda deluding themselves. Its like thinking White Dwarf is a real magazine, not just a monthly catalogue. These people are advertising opinions, nothing more. </blockquote>And no one expects Game Informer to start exposing GameStop's questionable practices, either.<br>But that relationship is <i>known</i>.<br><br><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote</cite>there's no "stories" in gaming journalism, just a bunch of promotions for games a reviewer likes, and complaints about games they don't. I don't want unbiased reviews. I remember when there was this big call for unbiased rpg reviews at RPGnet (back when it was still about RPGs), and I read these reviews that went to great pains to be unbiased, and without fail, 100% of the time, these were the most boring, pointless reviews on the planet. If I read someone's review I want thier personal opinion, no holds barred. I dont have to agree with an opinion to find it entertaining.</blockquote>I don't think anyone's honestly advocating 100% objective reviews; just be up front with your bias.<br><br>Bayoneta 2 got 9 or 9.5 on most review sites; it got a 7.5 on Kotaku. Not because the controls were buggy, the gameplay wasn't fun, no. Because the reviewer thought that Bayoneta was "over-sexualized", and it ruined his ability to immerse himself in the game.<br><br><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote</cite>Why is this group not going after Fox News if they're really concerned about ethics in journalism, a news source that actually impacts society? This all smacks of slactivism again to me.</blockquote>1) Considering how hard, fast and thoroughly the games press tried to censor the story, at this point, we have to take the news agencies that will give us the time of day (hence the use of HuffPo and Breitbart; MSNBC still has not reached out to any pro-GG that I know of, to try and get the other side of the story).<br>2) To the best of my knowledge, Fox News has not actively censored discussion on GamerGate.<br>3) To the best of my knowledge, Fox News has not run a coordinated effort to decry "Gamers are dead!"<br>4) Ergo, Association fallacy.<br><br>How "slacktivist" is it, if your drying up the pool of money they have to continue operations? </div> </div><!-- .post --> <div class="under_message"> </div><!-- .under_message --> </div><!-- .postarea --> <div class="moderatorbar"> <div class="signature" id="msg_793382_signature"> <blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote from: dragoner;776244</cite><span style="color: Purple;" class="bbc_color">Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn\'t what I play rpg\'s for.</span> </blockquote> </div> </div><!-- .moderatorbar --> </div><!-- .post_wrapper --> </div><!-- $message[css_class] --> <hr class="post_separator"> <div class="windowbg" id="msg793392"> <div class="post_wrapper"> <div class="poster"> <h4> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=5090" title="View the profile of Novastar">Novastar</a> </h4> <ul class="user_info"> <li class="title">Descending into madness</li> <li class="avatar"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=5090"><img class="avatar" src="https://www.therpgsite.com/custom_avatar/stormtroopers.jpg" alt=""></a> </li> <li class="icons"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"></li> <li class="postgroup">Hero Member</li> <li class="postcount">Posts: 1,673</li> <li class="poster_ip">Logged</li> </ul> </div><!-- .poster --> <div class="postarea"> <div class="keyinfo"> <div id="subject_793392" class="subject_title subject_hidden"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793392" rel="nofollow">Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests</a> </div> <span class="page_number floatright">#231</span> <div class="postinfo"> <span class="messageicon" style="position: absolute; z-index: -1;"> <img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.png" alt=""> </span> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793392" rel="nofollow" title="Reply #231 - Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests" class="smalltext">October 22, 2014, 01:37:35 PM</a> <span class="spacer"></span> <span class="smalltext modified floatright" id="modified_793392"> </span> </div> <div id="msg_793392_quick_mod"></div> </div><!-- .keyinfo --> <div class="post"> <div class="inner" data-msgid="793392" id="msg_793392"> <blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote from: jhkim;793374</cite>From what I read, the main complaints seem to be primarily about how game journalists are all a bunch of feminists conspiring to push their political views onto others and not representing the views of many gamers. As you say, that might not be courteous to non-feminists, but it isn't inherently corruption or unethical. They have no obligation to represent the views of any particular gamers. <br><br>I certainly believe that there is corruption and lack of ethics within game journalism, such as paying for reviews, but that doesn't seem to be what GamerGate posters are focused on. I have seen no indication at all that the anti-GamerGaters are in favor of paying for reviews, or being soft on that. The reason that they are opposed to GamerGate is <i>because</i> it is focused on other stuff.</blockquote>I have to disagree; on the pro-GG side, the argument is over journalistic ethics. The anti-GG wants to make it about Feminism. Ignoratio elenchi.<br><br>And wanting to maintain the corrupt status quo, is a stance as well. So, yes, anti-GG are making a stand to enable corruption. And mass censorship. They also openly call us terrorists and a hate group. While advocating illegal doxxing, against their opponents. And these aren't random anons on Twitter making these calls, they're from the supposed "professionals" (I'm thinking mostly of Leigh Alexander and Devin Faraci) on the anti-GG side.<br><br>And as a cheap parting shot; if your side has an actual "former" Neo-Nazi (Ian Miles Cheong, who still thinks "Jews = nothing") on it, you might want to look a little harder at who you're championing. </div> </div><!-- .post --> <div class="under_message"> </div><!-- .under_message --> </div><!-- .postarea --> <div class="moderatorbar"> <div class="signature" id="msg_793392_signature"> <blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote from: dragoner;776244</cite><span style="color: Purple;" class="bbc_color">Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn\'t what I play rpg\'s for.</span> </blockquote> </div> </div><!-- .moderatorbar --> </div><!-- .post_wrapper --> </div><!-- $message[css_class] --> <hr class="post_separator"> <div class="windowbg" id="msg793393"> <div class="post_wrapper"> <div class="poster"> <h4> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=4020" title="View the profile of S'mon">S'mon</a> </h4> <ul class="user_info"> <li class="avatar"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=4020"><img class="avatar" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgO8W7bqPZ-e8vFKgdY-nfzpIilx8C8B9xT5vaHjxElbG8PLYWwW-sUukaxyRmms5CIjEVAVXu5mjOen-k524oSvV4yBLUNYIXnxn7xQAMHeW1pR9KS31XoDvJJs8CtNlNqjMJaiMD9N9VSodGruT_Abwa0g9enuf6r5B4ONYUwE5lGr2AUuKMiiJlXQPs" alt=""></a> </li> <li class="icons"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"></li> <li class="postgroup">Hero Member</li> <li class="postcount">Posts: 13,516</li> <li class="im_icons"> <ol> <li class="custom cust_gender"><span class=" main_icons gender_1" title="Male"></span></li> </ol> </li> <li class="custom cust_loca">Location: UK</li> <li class="poster_ip">Logged</li> </ul> </div><!-- .poster --> <div class="postarea"> <div class="keyinfo"> <div id="subject_793393" class="subject_title subject_hidden"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793393" rel="nofollow">Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests</a> </div> <span class="page_number floatright">#232</span> <div class="postinfo"> <span class="messageicon" style="position: absolute; z-index: -1;"> <img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.png" alt=""> </span> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793393" rel="nofollow" title="Reply #232 - Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests" class="smalltext">October 22, 2014, 01:38:03 PM</a> <span class="spacer"></span> <span class="smalltext modified floatright" id="modified_793393"> </span> </div> <div id="msg_793393_quick_mod"></div> </div><!-- .keyinfo --> <div class="post"> <div class="inner" data-msgid="793393" id="msg_793393"> <blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote from: jhkim;793244</cite>I am not in favor of pressuring editors or authors to be fair and balanced and provide multiple viewpoints on any given issue. I associate this with arguments over creationism and/or climate change, with some people demanding that their side of the argument be covered. <br></blockquote><br>Taking Creationism, the one issue we agree on (since you are one of those foolish Warmists, while I have studied the Science) <img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif" alt=":D" title="Cheesy" class="smiley"> - what possible negative effect is there from giving Creationists a platform? They are not going to convince anyone interested in empirical ascertainment of the truth, are they? Whereas banning their POV, like the banning of holocaust denial in Europe, lets them paint themselves as victims of a conspiracy - much as banning the Gamergate POV does. </div> </div><!-- .post --> <div class="under_message"> </div><!-- .under_message --> </div><!-- .postarea --> <div class="moderatorbar"> <div class="signature" id="msg_793393_signature"> Shadowdark Wilderlands (Fridays 6pm UK/1pm EST)  <a href="https://smons.blogspot.com/2024/08/shadowdark.html" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://smons.blogspot.com/2024/08/shadowdark.html</a> </div> </div><!-- .moderatorbar --> </div><!-- .post_wrapper --> </div><!-- $message[css_class] --> <hr class="post_separator"> <div class="windowbg" id="msg793403"> <div class="post_wrapper"> <div class="poster"> <h4> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=12384" title="View the profile of AmazingOnionMan">AmazingOnionMan</a> </h4> <ul class="user_info"> <li class="avatar"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=12384"><img class="avatar" src="https://www.therpgsite.com/avatars/default.png" alt=""></a> </li> <li class="icons"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"></li> <li class="postgroup">Sr. Member</li> <li class="postcount">Posts: 372</li> <li class="poster_ip">Logged</li> </ul> </div><!-- .poster --> <div class="postarea"> <div class="keyinfo"> <div id="subject_793403" class="subject_title subject_hidden"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793403" rel="nofollow">Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests</a> </div> <span class="page_number floatright">#233</span> <div class="postinfo"> <span class="messageicon" style="position: absolute; z-index: -1;"> <img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.png" alt=""> </span> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793403" rel="nofollow" title="Reply #233 - Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests" class="smalltext">October 22, 2014, 02:48:39 PM</a> <span class="spacer"></span> <span class="smalltext modified floatright" id="modified_793403"> </span> </div> <div id="msg_793403_quick_mod"></div> </div><!-- .keyinfo --> <div class="post"> <div class="inner" data-msgid="793403" id="msg_793403"> <blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote from: Novastar;793392</cite>And as a cheap parting shot; if your side has an actual "former" Neo-Nazi (Ian Miles Cheong, who still thinks "Jews = nothing") on it, you might want to look a little harder at who you're championing.</blockquote><br>Whoa there. If you want the public to look long and hard at who is on who's side, <i>both</i> sides have some rather miserable individuals stinking it up. <br>I hesitate to take a stand in this clusterfuck, because both sides demonstrate mindboggling stupidity. Over and over and over again.<br>I may find my self cheering for GG, but that's primarily because of some of the intensely annoying people who are on the other side. </div> </div><!-- .post --> <div class="under_message"> </div><!-- .under_message --> </div><!-- .postarea --> <div class="moderatorbar"> </div><!-- .moderatorbar --> </div><!-- .post_wrapper --> </div><!-- $message[css_class] --> <hr class="post_separator"> <div class="windowbg" id="msg793406"> <div class="post_wrapper"> <div class="poster"> <h4> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=397" title="View the profile of jhkim">jhkim</a> </h4> <ul class="user_info"> <li class="avatar"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=397"><img class="avatar" src="https://www.therpgsite.com/custom_avatar/goodthebadtheweird.jpg" alt=""></a> </li> <li class="icons"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"></li> <li class="postgroup">Hero Member</li> <li class="postcount">Posts: 12,315</li> <li class="poster_ip">Logged</li> </ul> </div><!-- .poster --> <div class="postarea"> <div class="keyinfo"> <div id="subject_793406" class="subject_title subject_hidden"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793406" rel="nofollow">Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests</a> </div> <span class="page_number floatright">#234</span> <div class="postinfo"> <span class="messageicon" style="position: absolute; z-index: -1;"> <img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.png" alt=""> </span> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793406" rel="nofollow" title="Reply #234 - Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests" class="smalltext">October 22, 2014, 03:03:15 PM</a> <span class="spacer"></span> <span class="smalltext modified floatright" id="modified_793406"> </span> </div> <div id="msg_793406_quick_mod"></div> </div><!-- .keyinfo --> <div class="post"> <div class="inner" data-msgid="793406" id="msg_793406"> <blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote from: S'mon;793393</cite>Taking Creationism, the one issue we agree on (since you are one of those foolish Warmists, while I have studied the Science) <img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif" alt=":D" title="Cheesy" class="smiley"> - what possible negative effect is there from giving Creationists a platform? They are not going to convince anyone interested in empirical ascertainment of the truth, are they? Whereas banning their POV, like the banning of holocaust denial in Europe, lets them paint themselves as victims of a conspiracy - much as banning the Gamergate POV does.</blockquote>Yes, Creationists absolutely are going to convince people. I've seen varying poll numbers depending on how the question is phrased, but belief Creationism varies from roughly 25% to 45% of the U.S. population. <br><br><a href="http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intelligent-design.aspx" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intelligent-design.aspx</a><br><br>That said, I am 100% behind Creationists right to make their arguments, and I disagree with the banning of Nazi speech in Germany (for example). However, I also disagree with the bullshit cries that non-Creationist publishers and journalists are ethically demanded to give equal time and respect to Creationism or else they are engaging in censorship. <br><br>A scientific journal that refuses to publish a Creationist paper is not censoring Creationist voices. They are engaging in their own right to free speech. Creationists can and do publish their own books and journals. <br><br>Likewise, if a given website like Kotaku or whoever doesn't give equal time to GamerGate voices, that isn't censorship. I personally tend to prefer a place like this one where I can talk to people with differing viewpoints, but that's shouldn't be an absolute requirement. </div> </div><!-- .post --> <div class="under_message"> </div><!-- .under_message --> </div><!-- .postarea --> <div class="moderatorbar"> <div class="signature" id="msg_793406_signature"> <a href="http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/site/about.html" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/site/about.html</a> </div> </div><!-- .moderatorbar --> </div><!-- .post_wrapper --> </div><!-- $message[css_class] --> <hr class="post_separator"> <div class="windowbg" id="msg793414"> <div class="post_wrapper"> <div class="poster"> <h4> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=5090" title="View the profile of Novastar">Novastar</a> </h4> <ul class="user_info"> <li class="title">Descending into madness</li> <li class="avatar"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=5090"><img class="avatar" src="https://www.therpgsite.com/custom_avatar/stormtroopers.jpg" alt=""></a> </li> <li class="icons"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"></li> <li class="postgroup">Hero Member</li> <li class="postcount">Posts: 1,673</li> <li class="poster_ip">Logged</li> </ul> </div><!-- .poster --> <div class="postarea"> <div class="keyinfo"> <div id="subject_793414" class="subject_title subject_hidden"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793414" rel="nofollow">Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests</a> </div> <span class="page_number floatright">#235</span> <div class="postinfo"> <span class="messageicon" style="position: absolute; z-index: -1;"> <img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.png" alt=""> </span> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793414" rel="nofollow" title="Reply #235 - Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests" class="smalltext">October 22, 2014, 03:31:54 PM</a> <span class="spacer"></span> <span class="smalltext modified floatright" id="modified_793414"> </span> </div> <div id="msg_793414_quick_mod"></div> </div><!-- .keyinfo --> <div class="post"> <div class="inner" data-msgid="793414" id="msg_793414"> Amazed it took this long for people to notice:<br><a href="http://theralphretort.com/zoe-quinn-couldnt-have-made-depression-quest-without-grayson/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://theralphretort.com/zoe-quinn-couldnt-have-made-depression-quest-without-grayson/</a><br>TL: DR version: Reporter is thanked in HTML credits for game he later covered, and did beta-testing for said game prior to that.<br><br>Probably my favorite line in the comments: "Kotaku investigated Kotaku and cleared Kotaku". </div> </div><!-- .post --> <div class="under_message"> </div><!-- .under_message --> </div><!-- .postarea --> <div class="moderatorbar"> <div class="signature" id="msg_793414_signature"> <blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote from: dragoner;776244</cite><span style="color: Purple;" class="bbc_color">Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn\'t what I play rpg\'s for.</span> </blockquote> </div> </div><!-- .moderatorbar --> </div><!-- .post_wrapper --> </div><!-- $message[css_class] --> <hr class="post_separator"> <div class="windowbg" id="msg793415"> <div class="post_wrapper"> <div class="poster"> <h4> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=4020" title="View the profile of S'mon">S'mon</a> </h4> <ul class="user_info"> <li class="avatar"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=4020"><img class="avatar" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgO8W7bqPZ-e8vFKgdY-nfzpIilx8C8B9xT5vaHjxElbG8PLYWwW-sUukaxyRmms5CIjEVAVXu5mjOen-k524oSvV4yBLUNYIXnxn7xQAMHeW1pR9KS31XoDvJJs8CtNlNqjMJaiMD9N9VSodGruT_Abwa0g9enuf6r5B4ONYUwE5lGr2AUuKMiiJlXQPs" alt=""></a> </li> <li class="icons"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"></li> <li class="postgroup">Hero Member</li> <li class="postcount">Posts: 13,516</li> <li class="im_icons"> <ol> <li class="custom cust_gender"><span class=" main_icons gender_1" title="Male"></span></li> </ol> </li> <li class="custom cust_loca">Location: UK</li> <li class="poster_ip">Logged</li> </ul> </div><!-- .poster --> <div class="postarea"> <div class="keyinfo"> <div id="subject_793415" class="subject_title subject_hidden"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793415" rel="nofollow">Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests</a> </div> <span class="page_number floatright">#236</span> <div class="postinfo"> <span class="messageicon" style="position: absolute; z-index: -1;"> <img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.png" alt=""> </span> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793415" rel="nofollow" title="Reply #236 - Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests" class="smalltext">October 22, 2014, 03:34:58 PM</a> <span class="spacer"></span> <span class="smalltext modified floatright" id="modified_793415"> </span> </div> <div id="msg_793415_quick_mod"></div> </div><!-- .keyinfo --> <div class="post"> <div class="inner" data-msgid="793415" id="msg_793415"> <blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote from: jhkim;793406</cite>Yes, Creationists absolutely are going to convince people. I've seen varying poll numbers depending on how the question is phrased, but belief Creationism varies from roughly 25% to 45% of the U.S. population. <br><br><a href="http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intelligent-design.aspx" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intelligent-design.aspx</a><br><br>That said, I am 100% behind Creationists right to make their arguments, and I disagree with the banning of Nazi speech in Germany (for example). However, I also disagree with the bullshit cries that non-Creationist publishers and journalists are ethically demanded to give equal time and respect to Creationism or else they are engaging in censorship. <br><br>A scientific journal that refuses to publish a Creationist paper is not censoring Creationist voices. They are engaging in their own right to free speech. Creationists can and do publish their own books and journals. <br><br>Likewise, if a given website like Kotaku or whoever doesn't give equal time to GamerGate voices, that isn't censorship. I personally tend to prefer a place like this one where I can talk to people with differing viewpoints, but that's shouldn't be an absolute requirement.</blockquote><br>OK, fair enough, I think. If Kotaku make clear that they have a particular stance (presumably a SJW stance) and people who want the opposing view should go elsewhere, that seems ok to me. I generally prefer POVs to be upfront and explicit - I prefer Fox or MSNBC's obvious bias to the BBC's spurious claims of impartiality. <br>I don't think though that scientists use SJW style censorship tactics against creationists, because they are not afraid of creationists - they know they are right, the evidence is on their side. A scientist can accurately represent creationist arguments and still refute them. SJW tactics as seen on eg RPGnet are to ban anyone from putting forward a contrary POV. I understand the temptation - some unmoderated comments threads are cesspools - but the standard should be basic politeness, not political correctness. </div> </div><!-- .post --> <div class="under_message"> </div><!-- .under_message --> </div><!-- .postarea --> <div class="moderatorbar"> <div class="signature" id="msg_793415_signature"> Shadowdark Wilderlands (Fridays 6pm UK/1pm EST)  <a href="https://smons.blogspot.com/2024/08/shadowdark.html" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://smons.blogspot.com/2024/08/shadowdark.html</a> </div> </div><!-- .moderatorbar --> </div><!-- .post_wrapper --> </div><!-- $message[css_class] --> <hr class="post_separator"> <div class="windowbg" id="msg793417"> <div class="post_wrapper"> <div class="poster"> <h4> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=397" title="View the profile of jhkim">jhkim</a> </h4> <ul class="user_info"> <li class="avatar"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=397"><img class="avatar" src="https://www.therpgsite.com/custom_avatar/goodthebadtheweird.jpg" alt=""></a> </li> <li class="icons"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"></li> <li class="postgroup">Hero Member</li> <li class="postcount">Posts: 12,315</li> <li class="poster_ip">Logged</li> </ul> </div><!-- .poster --> <div class="postarea"> <div class="keyinfo"> <div id="subject_793417" class="subject_title subject_hidden"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793417" rel="nofollow">Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests</a> </div> <span class="page_number floatright">#237</span> <div class="postinfo"> <span class="messageicon" style="position: absolute; z-index: -1;"> <img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.png" alt=""> </span> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793417" rel="nofollow" title="Reply #237 - Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests" class="smalltext">October 22, 2014, 03:40:46 PM</a> <span class="spacer"></span> <span class="smalltext modified floatright" id="modified_793417"> </span> </div> <div id="msg_793417_quick_mod"></div> </div><!-- .keyinfo --> <div class="post"> <div class="inner" data-msgid="793417" id="msg_793417"> So here's an example about the issue of corruption and ethics: <br><br><blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote from: Novastar;793382</cite>I don't think anyone's honestly advocating 100% objective reviews; just be up front with your bias.<br><br>Bayoneta 2 got 9 or 9.5 on most review sites; it got a 7.5 on Kotaku. Not because the controls were buggy, the gameplay wasn't fun, no. Because the reviewer thought that Bayoneta was "over-sexualized", and it ruined his ability to immerse himself in the game.</blockquote>I agree with the former statement. <br><br>So what's your issue with the review? Did the Kotaku reviewer openly state that his problem was with the over-sexualization, as implied by the quotes? Or did he lie and claim that the controls were buggy, for example? </div> </div><!-- .post --> <div class="under_message"> </div><!-- .under_message --> </div><!-- .postarea --> <div class="moderatorbar"> <div class="signature" id="msg_793417_signature"> <a href="http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/site/about.html" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/site/about.html</a> </div> </div><!-- .moderatorbar --> </div><!-- .post_wrapper --> </div><!-- $message[css_class] --> <hr class="post_separator"> <div class="windowbg" id="msg793422"> <div class="post_wrapper"> <div class="poster"> <h4> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=4901" title="View the profile of JRT">JRT</a> </h4> <ul class="user_info"> <li class="avatar"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=4901"><img class="avatar" src="https://www.therpgsite.com/avatars/default.png" alt=""></a> </li> <li class="icons"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"></li> <li class="postgroup">Sr. Member</li> <li class="postcount">Posts: 478</li> <li class="poster_ip">Logged</li> </ul> </div><!-- .poster --> <div class="postarea"> <div class="keyinfo"> <div id="subject_793422" class="subject_title subject_hidden"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793422" rel="nofollow">Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests</a> </div> <span class="page_number floatright">#238</span> <div class="postinfo"> <span class="messageicon" style="position: absolute; z-index: -1;"> <img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.png" alt=""> </span> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793422" rel="nofollow" title="Reply #238 - Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests" class="smalltext">October 22, 2014, 04:08:40 PM</a> <span class="spacer"></span> <span class="smalltext modified floatright" id="modified_793422"> </span> </div> <div id="msg_793422_quick_mod"></div> </div><!-- .keyinfo --> <div class="post"> <div class="inner" data-msgid="793422" id="msg_793422"> <blockquote class="bbc_standard_quote"><cite>Quote from: jhkim;793417</cite>So here's an example about the issue of corruption and ethics: <br><br><br>I agree with the former statement. <br><br>So what's your issue with the review? Did the Kotaku reviewer openly state that his problem was with the over-sexualization, as implied by the quotes? Or did he lie and claim that the controls were buggy, for example?</blockquote><br>The Bayonetta review he's talking about is not from Kotaku (which has a scoreless review system), but Polygon.  Here's some articles on it.<br><br><a href="http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/13/6957677/bayonetta-2-review-wii-u" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/13/6957677/bayonetta-2-review-wii-u</a><br><br><a href="http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/16/6990847/we-talk-about-our-bayonetta-2-review-on-our-podcast-quality-control" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/16/6990847/we-talk-about-our-bayonetta-2-review-on-our-podcast-quality-control</a><br><br>And here's a clear statement on Gamegate from Polygon.<br><br><a href="http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/17/6996601/on-gamergate-a-letter-from-the-editor" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/17/6996601/on-gamergate-a-letter-from-the-editor</a><br><br>What's starting to bug me from the GamerGate side of things is that some of the arguments seem to be unclear.  There are two major factions to GG, the anti-feminist side, and the side that wants to root out "corruption in the gaming journalism".  The former faction is pretty clear. The latter faction seems to be very fuzzy.  <br><br>It seems that every time criticism of GG comes up, people assume that the reporter "is corrupt", which is an argument you see political groups making when they don't like the reporting.  Plus, GG has appeared to ignore things like the recent controversy over Shadow of Mordor, which apparently had some deals going with YouTube folks.  Honestly, it seems the only things I hear GG doing is either attacking the "big three" feminist targets that have been involved, or swarming the comments articles of anything critical of GG.<br><br>But what's really troubling are the campaigns to get advertisers off sites.  How is that helping the integrity of the Journalists?!  First of all, this smacks of trying to shut down opinions they don't like, which is the antithesis of journalism and free speech.  Secondly, before all this craziness regarding the pro/anti feminist stuff came up--most people were concerned that game companies were too tight with ADVERTISERS.  So basically, GG is trying to make what little independence there is in the PR-cozy gaming area even MORE dependent on advertisers?!  Does anybody see how this is going to INCREASE the problem, not decrease it?  <br><br>And the targets of this are troubling.  Gamasutra is not really a news site but it's more a group of developer blogs, which is about 100% opinion.  So, let's pull ads for them because one person wrote an article we didn't like.  Let's go after Polygon because one guy disliked Bayonetta, and gave his honest opinion.  Why should a review have to "toe the line" and not find stuff distasteful.  A game could rub me the wrong way because it's got flashy anime-combat, it could be overtly violent, the plot could be dumb, etc.  Why should critics be forced to shut up about that kind of thing.  People wouldn't expect a movie reviewer to not comment about things they didn't like!  <br><br>That's why it's hard for me to accept that GG is about rooting out journalist corruption, but rather it's more about politics.  I think the group should split because there's so many decentralized views that they get confused. </div> </div><!-- .post --> <div class="under_message"> </div><!-- .under_message --> </div><!-- .postarea --> <div class="moderatorbar"> <div class="signature" id="msg_793422_signature"> Just some background on myself<br><br><a href="http://www.clashofechoes.com/jrt-interview/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://www.clashofechoes.com/jrt-interview/</a> </div> </div><!-- .moderatorbar --> </div><!-- .post_wrapper --> </div><!-- $message[css_class] --> <hr class="post_separator"> <div class="windowbg" id="msg793436"> <div class="post_wrapper"> <div class="poster"> <h4> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=9417" title="View the profile of woodsmoke">woodsmoke</a> </h4> <ul class="user_info"> <li class="title">You aren\'t worthy.</li> <li class="avatar"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/profile/?u=9417"><img class="avatar" src="https://www.therpgsite.com/custom_avatar/Arrogant Bastard.jpg" alt=""></a> </li> <li class="icons"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"><img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/membericons/icon.png" alt="*"></li> <li class="postgroup">Full Member</li> <li class="postcount">Posts: 143</li> <li class="poster_ip">Logged</li> </ul> </div><!-- .poster --> <div class="postarea"> <div class="keyinfo"> <div id="subject_793436" class="subject_title subject_hidden"> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793436" rel="nofollow">Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests</a> </div> <span class="page_number floatright">#239</span> <div class="postinfo"> <span class="messageicon" style="position: absolute; z-index: -1;"> <img src="https://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.png" alt=""> </span> <a href="https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=793436" rel="nofollow" title="Reply #239 - Most interesting thing about #gamergate: the #notyourshield protests" class="smalltext">October 22, 2014, 05:34:25 PM</a> <span class="spacer"></span> <span class="smalltext modified floatright" id="modified_793436"> </span> </div> <div id="msg_793436_quick_mod"></div> </div><!-- .keyinfo --> <div class="post"> <div class="inner" data-msgid="793436" id="msg_793436"> The reason people are going after Gamasutra and Polygon is they took part in the "gamers are over" propaganda blitz a couple months back. In doing so, they didn't just bite the hand that feeds them, they effectively declared war on it. Everything they're dealing with now is nothing more than the natural consequences of their own abject stupidity.<br><br>As for the ethics vs ideology divide, the best I can figure as to why some are maintaining GG has nothing to do with politics or feminism is they don't want gaming to get involved in and potentially weighed down by a larger cultural conflict. Personally, I don't think that's possible, not least because it seems pretty clear to me gaming is already involved in a fairly prominent capacity. I could well be wrong, though; I'm just Some Asshole on the Internet, same as most everyone else pontificating on all this. </div> </div><!-- .post --> <div class="under_message"> </div><!-- .under_message --> </div><!-- .postarea --> <div class="moderatorbar"> <div class="signature" id="msg_793436_signature"> The more I learn, the less I know. </div> </div><!-- .moderatorbar --> </div><!-- .post_wrapper --> </div><!-- $message[css_class] --> <hr class="post_separator"> </form> </div><!-- #forumposts --> <div class="pagesection"> <div class="buttonlist floatright"> <a class="button button_strip_print" href="https://www.therpgsite.com/other-games/most-interesting-thing-about-gamergate-the-notyourshield-protests/?action=printpage" rel="nofollow">Print</a> </div> <div class="pagelinks floatleft"> <a href="#main_content_section" class="button" id="bot">Go Up</a> <span class="pages">Pages</span><a class="nav_page" 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