Quote from: TristramEvans;792772How could one person's free speech limit another person's free speech?

You haven't heard of speakers being unable to speak because parts of the audience shout them down?

Quote from: TristramEvans;792772How could one person's free speech limit another person's free speech?

They find it so triggering and problematic that it leaves them unable to speak?

Quote from: apparition13;792804You haven't heard of speakers being unable to speak because parts of the audience shout them down?

That is a situation where security needs to escort those people out of the building.

Quote from: Iosue;792759The problem is, you've got a whole lot of very vocal people using the hashtag and saying it has nothing to do with feminism, and everything to do with holding games journalism accountable.

So GamerGate folks need to figure out what their movement is about, and stay on message.  Because right now it's very, very muddy.  The anti-GG people have a very simple message they can hammer all day long: GamerGate is about misogyny.  And one simple message will win against two or three parallel or conflicting messages everyday of the week and twice on Tuesday.

In general, I agree with you. A clear, concise message is very important.

That said, I simply don't see sufficient evidence to convince me of this constant refrain that GG is full of or being weighed down by misogyny. None of the prominent voices in the movement I'm aware of have said Thing 1 that even borders on implying a genuine hatred of women. Most of the well-received comments on the videos and articles posted by those prominent voices don't contain anything a rational person who hasn't drunk the feminist Kool-Aid would interpret as discriminatory toward women.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I am saying (again) the vast majority of what's commonly labeled misogyny by feminists and SJWs is nothing of the sort. That word has been thoroughly abused and applied with so many different interpretations in so many and such varied contexts as to be functionally without meaning. It's gotten to the point of essentially becoming a corollary to Godwin's Law for me; if I can't personally verify a thing empirically demonstrates or implies a genuine, pathological hatred or distrust of women I simply stop paying attention as soon as someone says it because in doing so they've already lost.

Part and parcel of opposing the presence of these postmodern religious ideologues in my hobby is refusing to engage on their terms.

Quote from: woodsmoke;792817That said, I simply don't see sufficient evidence to convince me of this constant refrain that GG is full of or being weighed down by misogyny.

The fact that you don't see the misogyny means that you're a misogynist.

Quote from: jeff37923;792814That is a situation where security needs to escort those people out of the building.

And yet it happens constantly, with free speech arguments on both sides. Or there are such vociferous protests at the announcement of someone speaking that whoever did the inviting caves and cancels the speech.

Now translate that to the online context. Where do you draw the line between legitimate free speech and free speech that interferes with the ability of others to speak? E.g., how much trolling is too much? How off topic is too far? What's the line between harassment and vigorous debate?

Quote from: apparition13;792825Now translate that to the online context.

You can't. Its impossible to shout over a person online, there's nothing forcing anyone to read what anyone else writes.

Quote from: TristramEvans;792829You can't. Its impossible to shout over a person online, there's nothing forcing anyone to read what anyone else writes.

while this is literally true, online you have dog piles where several people all respond to the same person in waves, making it impossible for them to reply to everyone and effectively turning the conversation into an echo chamber as the person's comments get lost in the noise

Quote from: Sacrosanct;792831while this is literally true, online you have dog piles where several people all respond to the same person in waves, making it impossible for them to reply to everyone and effectively turning the conversation into an echo chamber as the person's comments get lost in the noise

Sure, but thats only a problem if a mod comes in and censers them for not going with the crowd. They wouldnt have to respond to everybody, they could still say their piece. If thier worry is they wont be heard, well, thats not something Im too worried about. I believe in the freedom of speech, but not in the right to have others listen to you. Does it suck being the lone voice of reason in a mob of idiocy? Sure. Its a situation Im sure we've all experienced. But thats humanity. A few reasonable people and hordes and hordes of ignorant, self-absorbed morons. That will never change. But online your words are still there for any other person to common along and read. And one can always just go start a blog.

Quote from: Werekoala;792824The fact that you don't see the misogyny means that you're a misogynist.

Kafka would be proud.

Remember back when Xbox Live became popular?

Remember when games became dominated by teens whose viciousness ruined the Xbox experience for many people? Some pimpled motherfuckers were truly outrageous in their insults.

Those teens from back then have gotten older, and some continue to the trash talk of their earlier years, but now its on Twitter, Facebook, etc, where trash talk is text that does not vanish and can be splattered across sites and platforms.

As a former middle school teacher, trash talk was common among teen boys. School authorities considered it "hate speech" which was an idiotic overreaction because rarely did the kids actually mean any real harm by their words.

Interestingly enough, it was my experience as a teacher, that the trash talk almost always avoided real insults to kids to whom it would harm. Why? The shitass little fuckers trash talking each other were classmates, often friends and trash talking was a game with each other. The problem with the web is that we don't know the person on the other side of the screen.

Unfortunately, the overly sensitive, the PC police and the outrage brigade want us to believe that that trash talking is actual hate. But I don't believe they are going to win.

Quote from: Iosue;792759So GamerGate folks need to figure out what their movement is about, and stay on message.  Because right now it's very, very muddy.

There is no way for any "organization" to stay "on message" in the internet age. Both political parties with billions of donor dollars can do nothing about someone "going off message" and the other side taking that post/video/tweet/pic and making it viral.

As much as I despise the GOP, even I do not believe their real political platform includes emailing racist jokes about Obama, regardless if many of their voters believe otherwise. The web is uncontrolled, and it may stay uncontrollable. Even the President of the Free World can't stop a Congressmen from posting dick pics in an election year.

For better or worse, we must welcome the new normal and learn to navigate its wild frontier.

Quote from: Iosue;792759One of my passions is Old English and Anglo-Saxon history.  But the amateur Anglo-Saxonists sat by while their interest was hijacked by BNP-types at best, and fucking neo-Nazis at worst.

I am a fan of the viking heavy metal band Amon Amarth. So I am well aware of the reaction by some people online of 3,2,1 OMFG, Spinachat is a NAZI!!!  

Last month, Amon Amarth was playing Riverside, California which is out in the desert boondocks of Southern California and close to San Bernardino, a low income desert area that has had history of being considered a white supremacy enclave.

Because of the online comments over the years (both pro-and against Amon Amarth) I figured the concert was going to draw skinheads and the neo-Nazi crowd BUT I was amazingly wrong. What I discovered offline at the concert, was the band drew a wildly diverse crowd who were really happy partying with each other.

I mention this anecdote because I believe the offline world of gamers will trump whatever happens online.

Quote from: Snowman0147;792796Sad part for gamergate is that your not only supporting journalistic integrity, but also against the social justice bullshit that those corrupt journalists hide behind.

Hashtags and Twitter don't allow nuance. Regardless of how the media demands we think in simplistic terms, we must all remember that it is 100% probable that real people exist on both sides of whatever who do not agree with 100% of the "ideas" of their "side".
 
I believe many SJWs who play video games would prefer a more honest, less embedded journalism in their hobby. Why? Nobody wants to buy a lame game being pimped by a journalist who's on the take.

Quote from: Spinachcat;792847Unfortunately, the overly sensitive, the PC police and the outrage brigade want us to believe that that trash talking is actual hate.

This is key to understanding the difference between what the half-informed think 4chan is and what 4chan really is.

Although that defense aside, that place is still a douchebag generator and deserves some of its flak.

Quote from: Spinachcat;792847I am a fan of the viking heavy metal band Amon Amarth. So I am well aware of the reaction by some people online of 3,2,1 OMFG, Spinachat is a NAZI!!!  

Last month, Amon Amarth was playing Riverside, California which is out in the desert boondocks of Southern California and close to San Bernardino, a low income desert area that has had history of being considered a white supremacy enclave.

Because of the online comments over the years (both pro-and against Amon Amarth) I figured the concert was going to draw skinheads and the neo-Nazi crowd BUT I was amazingly wrong. What I discovered offline at the concert, was the band drew a wildly diverse crowd who were really happy partying with each other.

I mention this anecdote because I believe the offline world of gamers will trump whatever happens online.

Funny story about Amon Amarth. Back in Portland they played a show at the Hawthorne Theater where I was bouncing. I'm a tiny wee man, and it was a very stressful job that I don't miss that much. Anyway, a back of war skins showed up about 20 deep. Security begged our boss to not let them in, but he's the boss and didn't want the hassle.

Someone makes a phone call the the local SHARPS, who show up and proceed to beat the living piss out of the nazis. I can't say I enjoyed watching some trailer trash psycho get his teeth kicked into this throat, but I can't say I was shedding any tears.  

Anyway, back in the realm of stupid/tedious internet drama, some genius over on Polygon posted the teardown that Siskel and Ebert did of horror movies back in the 80's, how they were all some sublimated rebellion against female empowerment.  I know, right?

The current moral panic bearing a striking resemblance to previous moral panics aside, the point of the article was that Siskel and Ebert didn't have to deal with death threats.

Now, let's ignore the fact that I would bet my left nut that they got at least a few nasty threatening letters. But it's shocking how utterly oblivious this cat is to think that the ease of twitter and email might have a lot more to do with threats than the huge pain in the ass of assembling a letter from newspaper clippings and your own blood.

That teardown, Bee Tee Dubs, is still fucking loathed in Horror fan circles. It marked a point where horror fans were on the defensive for about a decade. Not only were you a Satan worshipping serial killer, you also hated women.

Quote from: JonWake;792884Funny story about Amon Amarth. Back in Portland they played a show at the Hawthorne Theater where I was bouncing. I'm a tiny wee man, and it was a very stressful job that I don't miss that much. Anyway, a back of war skins showed up about 20 deep. Security begged our boss to not let them in, but he's the boss and didn't want the hassle.

Someone makes a phone call the the local SHARPS, who show up and proceed to beat the living piss out of the nazis. I can't say I enjoyed watching some trailer trash psycho get his teeth kicked into this throat, but I can't say I was shedding any tears.  

What are SHARPS, and how are they able to beat up hundreds(?!) of Neo-Nazis? :confused:
Judging by Louis Theroux documentaries, I got the impression that all the Nazi Skinheads in southern California couldn't make a throng '20 deep'.

Quote from: S'mon;792886What are SHARPS, and how are they able to beat up hundreds(?!) of Neo-Nazis? :confused:
Judging by Louis Theroux documentaries, I got the impression that all the Nazi Skinheads in southern California couldn't make a throng '20 deep'.

Sharpskins, I assume, skinheads, but no Nazis or racist, original skinheads used to like blues and reagge and such.
I might be wrong of course.