Quote from: Snowman0147;796630Is there any fucking low that Brianna Wu and her ilk wouldn't go?  I don't even know why people defend them because they are lower than fucking scum.

Quote from: nightwind1;797351

Some battles cannot be won when willful ignorance rears it's blind little head.

Also, In Before the Lock.

Quote from: Alathon;797307I lodged a protest vote this year, does that count?

From what I could tell, most people's "protest vote" this year was not showing up.  

JG

I think there had been good things coming from this thread.  Gamergate people showed a lot of evidence that no one with are reasonable mind and honest intentions could ignore.  Hell this thread reach up to 101 pages and have a thousand threads all in thanks to Will and his anti-gamergate buddies for keeping this thread so strong with their inability to apply critical thinking skills.

Quote from: JRT;797340Good journalism to me means allows other opinions, and publishing articles that the audience may not want to hear or may anger the audience.  The big problem with the world today is everybody doesn't just want to agree to disagree, they want to remove all the elements that disagree with them.  I see this GG thing as a part of a much larger problem with society.  Unless it's more about actively fixing the problem--either by engaging the media and asking for reforms, or having a solid plan that involves more that just listing enemies and acting defensively towards any criticism, I don't see much getting done here.

Currently, there's something of a 15,000+ user Block list going around Twitter, to block anyone who speaks positively about #GG. That's a hell of an echo chamber in the making.

How does a Twitter block list work? How do you install it into your Twitter? I am not interested in doing it, just understanding how it works. Echo chambers are bad for the culture, but good for business.

Quote from: Snowman0147;797373Hell this thread reach up to 101 pages and have a thousand threads all in thanks to Will and his anti-gamergate buddies for keeping this thread so strong with their inability to apply critical thinking skills.

That's very uncharitable to Will and the "his anti-gamergate buddies" () who have been more open to discussion than anything I've seen elsewhere on the internet regarding #GG.

This thread could have clusterfucked itself into oblivion, as many threads have in the past, but even when I haven't agreed with Will or other posters in this thread, I am just not seeing whackass SJW derangement by them. Just different opinions on a complex topic.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;797369Also, In Before the Lock.

I see what you did there.

Oh I am sorry if I have little sympathy towards those that been offered a mountain of evidence, proof that gamergate is doing its best to take out trolls, proof that anti-gamergate will harass/death threat people, and yet still deny all that.  These are not people that want to debate because if it was a actual debate they would end up agreeing with gamergate after seeing all the evidence.  Instead they repeat the same bullshit lies, excuses, and keep repeating them till everyone is fed up.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;797369Also, In Before the Lock.

I won't lock the thread, but i will remind people to post content instead of just a picture.

Interesting blog post by Brad Wardell, CEO of Stardock, accused (and later cleared of) harassment charges:

http://www.littletinyfrogs.com/article/458959/Bullying_for_a_good_cause

QuoteThey say timing is everything.

I keep being told that #gamergate started as a harassment and threat campaign.  Maybe they're right if you treat #gamergate as having started years ago when people under the guise of "Social Justice" started harassing and threatening people they didn't like.  I don't just speak of myself.  What is happening now in the gaming community has been building up for years.

So let me be succinct: People have the growing, creeping feeling that "pull" and "politics" rather than merit are becoming the driving force of our society. They believe it's infected the coverage of their hobby. And they're now pushing back.

Bullying

But let's talk about bulling. Let's make sure we understand each other:

Let me address those friends and colleagues who are vocally anti-GamerGate who have told me I need to be careful not to be associated with "GG":

Don't tell me that I must disassociate myself from #gamergate because it's become a "harassment" movement when many of you personally witnessed the harassment, threats and hate I have been receiving for years on forums and social media that you knew was undeserved but did nothing about.  You didn't say a word. You didn't speak up. You just didn't want to get involved.  Some of you participated in the very threads where I was being attacked and just looked the other way.

And mind you, I didn't hold it against you that you didn't want to step up and come to my defense.  I didn't expect you to. I have a thick skin. And I am the bigger person.  That's what I keep being told. In essence, I'm told I have to put up with the abuse and harassment and threats by the virtue of having the ability to crush them if I wanted.  Therefore, as an "overdog", you felt no need to say a single word in, say, a thread that was full of personal attacks you knew were false because, hey, I can take it.  And you're right. I can.

But it also means that your outrage against harassment, threats and abuse is selective. When you saw me being defamed for years and just ignored it (no tweets, no comments, etc.) you clearly made a distinction that some people need to be supported and others do not.

In fact, in all those years, only one person who knew the details spoke up for me. (and you can look at the thread to see the hate thrown at me and then see that these haters now, 100% are the ones bullying and smearing #gamergate supporter today. Go ahead, check. These aren't anonymous people. These are the people claiming to be "the good guys").  And you know what they did to him? My friend? They suggested disgusting things about us. Ridiculed him. Of course, some of you know that because you saw what they said on other forums but you said nothing. Didn't want to get involved.

I've seen the tactic used over and over: Delegitimize your critics and disperse their support base.  That's what you're trying to do to these #gamergate people through insults, bullying, ridiculing.

And if that doesn't work, economic punishment:



He's using a word I don't think he understands. Basically: I should be fired because...reasons (unspecified) Tolerance.

If I say something or do something or write something that you think is inappropriate, inflammatory or unfair then call me on it.  I can take it.

But don't tell me that I have some "guilt by association" thing going when you were perfectly okay associating with people and groups that have spent years harassing others.

That was interesting.

I don't know ultimately what to think about Gamergate. On the one hand there's a distinction not being made between the actual gamergate movement and the gamergate hashtag. A hashtag can be used by anyone. Its simply a way of getting your thoughts across to a massive audience. People who say "change the hashtag" are basically saying "start a new television network. Its nonsensical and it doesnt work like that. Meanwhile the actual
Gamergate movement has been the only ones in this whole affair to be contributing anything positive to society whatsoever. The inability of certain posters here to be able to distinguish between the two is nothing besides an indication of either their stubborness or intelligence.

But the origins are there. The Zoey Quinn fiasco is always a pallour that will hang over the group, no matter how muuch they try to distance themselves. And don't get me wrong I think Zoey Quinn is slime. But not because of who she slept with, or because she cheated on her boyfriend. I read his story, and I dont feel any pity for the guy. "You deserve what you're willing to put up with" as my grandfather used to say. But the massive attacks on Zoey Quinn are not things I condone in any way either. They were frequently sexist and disgusting and a vomiting forth of everything horrible about online culture.

But that's not where GG began, really. It began as a reaction to the "Death of the Geek" campaign, an orchestrated exercise in bigotry.

I've said before and I'll say again that I don't really care about "ethics in gaming journalism". I would class it somewhere in importance with the "effort to get more bikelanes put into a city". I'm not against it, it just doesn't inspire any feeling in me besides apathy.

So we reach the point where, as I've said before I'm not pro-GG but I am anti-anti-gamergate. It's been claimed here and elsewhere that "antiGG isn't a thing", that it's just GG and everyone else. Well, no. "Everyone else" doesn't give a crap one way or the other. This is an online battle that matters less than zero to the average person. "Anti-Gamergate" is everyone that attacks or criticizes Gamergate. But they aren't an organized group, just as anyone who uses the hashtag #gamergate isn't part of an organized group. But again just like gamergate there IS an actual group within the anti-GG movement. And that group identifies itself as feminists. And according to this group anyone against them anyone against feminism, is deFacto a sexist. Hence GG is sexist.

The problem with that is manyfold. First and foremost, this group, nomatter what they personally think, do not represent the be-all end-all of feminism, no more than Catholics represent the whole of Christianity. There are many philosophies and movements that identify as feminist, and (surprise!), they don't all agree. Several groups are wildly opposed to the precepts and beliefs of others. Hence "No True Scotsman" arguments abound.

Secondly, being anti-femist does not equate to being sexist or misogynistic. It may fit the specific definition of any one feminist group, but their opinions only matter as much as one is willing to buy into their particular brand.

Which is not to say there are not plenty of misogynists quite willing to use the gamergate hashtag. Which brings us back to the faulty reasoning behind equating the hashtag with the actual group. To complicate matters further, we have within the anti-gamergate movement many people who are quite willing to unscrupulously claim any online harassment or threats they've recieved are the result of or perpetrated by Gamergate. There's been no evidence presented so far to believe this is the case. In fact, there's pretty damning evidence to suggest it's very much not the case. Sarkeesian, Wu, Quinn, and several others have been shown to engage in some very dishonest tactics to promote their accusations (and themselves).

Where it gets more complex though is that I also agree that sexism and misogyny does exist within the gaming industry and is a problem that should be dealt with. But I'm not willing to exchange one problem for another, or to abide by the "ends justify the means" tactics employed for "the greater good". I would support a feminist movement that held itself to a higher level of ethical standards beyond "we hate misogyny, so we're the good guys, no matter what". There also needs to be room for the acceptance of other, contrary philosophies and conclusions, just as religious tolerance is necessary for a free society. The what I believe = a universal truth paradigm does not work for society. It doesn't work for politics, it doesn't work for religion, it doesn't work for "social justice".

To that end I think that a concentrated work against the particular intolerant, hateful, and dishonest brand of feminism that forms the backbone of the anti-gamergate movement is a worthwhile cause. I'm not going to be as silly as those suggesting that gamergate drop the hashtag gamergate and suggest that the equity feminists or sex-positive feminists drop the term "feminism" because its become tainted by a group of vocal extremists. But I think that the distinction needs to be made more public more pronounced, and become a more readily disseminated talking point. "Feminism" should not be a dirty word co-opted by the post-Dworkin extremists. They should be challenged, and either adapt to society (i.e. learn tolerance, accept that their PoV is not a universal truth, and drop the hatemongering tactics), or be relegated to the status of "part of the overall problem". I think this is vital so that actual legitimate concerns with sexism in society can be addressed.

And I don't think Gamergate is the movement to do that.

Quote from: TristramEvans;797557-Long rant, see above-

Wow.
Except for that I rather define myself as Pro-Feminism and Pro-Gamergate, I think I actually agree with everything in that rant, at least all in the general viewpoint and the conclusions.

Quote from: TristramEvans;797557So we reach the point where, as I've said before I'm not pro-GG but I am anti-anti-gamergate.  It's been claimed here and elsewhere that "antiGG isn't a thing", that it's just GG and everyone else. Well, no. "Everyone else" doesn't give a crap one way or the other. This is an online battle that matters less than zero to the average person. "Anti-Gamergate" is everyone that attacks or criticizes Gamergate. But they aren't an organized group, just as anyone who uses the hashtag #gamergate isn't part of an organized group. But again just like gamergate there IS an actual group within the anti-GG movement. And that group identifies itself as feminists. And according to this group anyone against them anyone against feminism, is deFacto a sexist. Hence GG is sexist.

I'm sure that somewhere on the Internet there are some feminist anti-GGers who say this - because there are tons of stupid people out there. However, I also know that there are a ton of people who are both feminist and anti-gamergaters who don't say this.

You say, "there IS an actual group within the anti-GG movement".  I am willing to believe that, and if you are specific about that group and its positions, then maybe I would be anti that group, but I'm not against anyone who attacks or criticizes gamergate (especially since I'm in that group).

Since I'm not much of a computer gamer, this thread is actually the main place where I am discussing gamergate, and I've been influenced by what I've seen here. For example, earlier, Novastar and S'Mon had argued in favor of the original accusations against Zoe Quinn that started the tag. That's fucked up, in my opinion, because those accusations were nasty and obviously wrong even at the time - and for people to be still arguing for them months later suggests to me that the movement is failing to distance itself from that.

Incidentally, Novastar is still on this thread. Have you changed your mind at all about those original charges about Zoe Quinn and Depression Quest?

IMO, if the sudden posting of "anti-gamer" articles hadn't happened on the same day, then this whole thing would have likely lost steam by now. Whether or not it started as a "let's harass Zoe" thing or not, it HAS moved beyond that, no matter what the anti-GG side wants to make everyone think.

I'm not saying the articles shouldn't have been published, or might not have had some valid points, I'm saying that sudden burst of essentially the same party-line being posted all at once made borderline-GG supporters sit up, take notice, and start getting involved. People like me, for example. I didn't even know about Zoey until well after this whole thing had started, I simply ran across the "Five Guys" videos while watching others by IA related to Tumblr of all things. Now, I'm fully invested, and NOT because of ZQ.  It was a tactical mistake on the part of the anti-GG crowd.

On a related note - I find it extremely humorous that the anti-GG people are screaming bloody murder about the "attacks" on advertisers, when I have precisely ZERO doubt that they all supported (or would support once they knew about it) the orchestrated campaign by Media Matters and other leftists groups to harass advertisers on the Rush Limbaugh show to drop their ads after the Sandra Fluke kerfuffle. Seriously - SJWs and feminists decrying the same tactics they used against Limbaugh and others... you can't make this shit up.

IT'S OK AS LONG AS WE'RE DOING IT!

Quote from: Werekoala;797719IMO, if the sudden posting of "anti-gamer" articles hadn't happened on the same day, then this whole thing would have likely lost steam by now.

Those articles had been brewing for a long time; there was a history developing of games people being sent hatred and death threats for changing gun stats, or giving a game the wrong review score, or including NPC's of a certain sexuality, or for working on a game that people didn't like, or for being a woman, or for criticising games, or for liking different aspects of games... people being cunts under the guise of being gamers, basically.

And if you are into games, those people are not your friends! They are not on your side, they have no interest in games, they just want to hurt people and blame it on something else. If it wasn't in the name of games it would be in the name of religion, or politics, or some other bullshit reason. They are the people giving gamers a bad name, resulting in gamers not being taken seriously, and holding back games as a medium (And make no mistake; I think videogames are the best artistic medium ever developed); their hiding behind "free speech!!1!" is what will result in it being taken away from people.

The ZQ stuff, and the hounding she got, just set off the backlash... but if it hadn't been that, it would have been something else, and pretty soon. She slept with a bunch of people? Well, that's a pretty shitty thing to do, but unless you have or plan to have slept with her, it's none of your business; it's not an excuse to harass her.

Woah! Since when is sleeping with a bunch of people a shitty thing to do?