TheRPGSite

http://margaretweis.com/21-home-page/56-pipleine-news

QuoteAnd in Marvel news… the economics of licensing a tie-in product is always something we have to weigh carefully. We brokered an admittedly ambitious license with Marvel. Our first event, CIVIL WAR, was successful and well received, but it didn’t garner the level of sales necessary to sustain the rest of the line. We’ve learned from this and are taking a very different approach with the other licensed properties we’re bringing out to you in the next three years. We believe we created a great game. Those of you that have supported us have been terrific, and we appreciate you. But, unfortunately, we will not be bringing any new product out under the Marvel line. We know this affects our customers. Those that have pre-ordered Annihilation will receive a full refund or a credit worth 150% of their Annihilation order to use on existing or future product.

Thought some people might want to know.

A bit of a shame to see them go, as it's another nail to the grave of the industry, even if I was not interested in the slightest. They basically made a game very dependant on add - ons (since as I understand, you kinda need/really want those stats and special abilities lists from the IP heroes list), then release one add on and...declare the game a dead fish?

QuoteOur first event, CIVIL WAR, was successful and well received, but it didn’t garner the level of sales necessary to sustain the rest of the line.

So it was successful how? Did it leave an inspiration for future RPG writers to see - that's a bit early to say. Has it won some awards? I don't see. So perhaps the sales were high enough to declare it a fine commercial success? Well, obviously not, since they led to a cancellation of the line. The only "success" I can see there is a "popular Silver pick" on RPGnow, but as I remember from using Eclipse Phase's PDF sales, you had to sell about 300 copies to get to the silver - not hard to do when you have Marvel IP behind you.

edit: Witness my brilliance anew:

Quote from: Rincewind1;516472Cortex+ games very successful? Hm. Let's take a look at them.

First of all, here's the source of information from which we know that EP's corebook sold 1.500 PDFs {platinum game}, and Gatecrashers sord a little over 400 {gold game}

http://eclipsephase.com/posthuman-2010-year-end-review

In case of MHR, as CRKrueger pointed out, the Marvel himself could ensure a quick raise of the game as Gold Title, so that it'd make an illusion of the game "flying off the shelves" in first few days. But even without such conspiracy theories, let's take a look over it and other Cortex games.

As I had established a few times, a Gold game on DTRPG is something, I suspect, between 400 and hm, I suspected 1000 - 1200 sales.

Let's take a look over the 3 Darlings of Cortex - Leverage, Smallville, Supernatural. Bear in mind, all of those games, are based on very popular (well, Leverage perhaps slightly less, but I even caught an episode of British version of that show on Polish TV - so it's not unpopular, for sure), licenses.

Save the Quickstart Job for Leverage, none of the core products for those series is Gold, which I suspect means their sales are somewhat between 100 and 300. Not that bad - but not stunning success neither. Of course, that's just PDFs - but so is EP on DTRPG. All informations together, it's a safe presumption that Cortex sold about 2k printed copies each, tops.

To compare, Fate - run DFRPG sold 10k copies (pdf included though, but it's Gold on DTRPG - so no more then 1.500 surely), and EP sold 6k printed copies.

Come to think of it, I -do- believe I had all that analysis of "how much is that RPGnow medal really worth" in discussion of MHS much vaunted "success", because it reached gold. Guess I deserve a little huff of "I Told You So" tobacco. :pundit:

Edit: Having re - read the original MHS thread in search of my "RPG INVESTIGATION", boy was I mistaken on Nixon - at least I spent only ten bucks on TSoY. And that pipe ought to be much, much larger.

Apparently you have until the end of this month to buy any of the PDFs you are interested in from Drivethrough before they are all pulled.

Pity, but yeah, it was a very ambitious line.

Still - what exists for it, is good work, and should be easy enough to build on for anyone who wants to.

Given the way disney does licences i'm surprised they lasted this long, next time they try for a disney controlled licence they really need to make sure they have the rights to all regions otherwise i just wouldnt bother because not being able to release outside the us offiically probably harmed the game more than it helped especially given how huge the marvel movies were last summer.

Kinda makes me wonder how long it'll be before the star wars rpg starts hitting similar issues where regions are concerned(though hopefully the fact the licence was made pre disney getting the franchise will help matters)

They tried to make a collectible rpg ruleset, and it blew up in their faces. I'm not surprised one bit.

Quote from: danbuter;648953They tried to make a collectible rpg ruleset, and it blew up in their faces. I'm not surprised one bit.

Yup. Everyone I knew in meatspace was really turned off by how focused it was on playing MARVEL characters in MARVEL events.

Media tie-in rpgs do not have a very successful track record. RPGs are such a marginal business anyway, and it's such a tiny market compred to even books (that are worth the bother) that the cost of administering the license (which involves lawyers) is more than it will ever generate for the copyright holder. The licensing fees are, to a gaming company brutal.

Was it the collectible model? The narrative mechanics? The general decline of both comics and RPG industries?

The collectible model centered around fiction tie-ins was bad, but maybe it was contract-mandated. It really is the hare-brained sort of thing that you'd expect from a clueless suit.

If anything I'm surprised it took that long. I don't mean to sound like a prick, the MWP crew looks like stand-up folks with their hearts in the right places (even if I don't personally care about Cortex or Cortex+), but there it is.

Here's hoping they weren't hit too hard by this. Maybe we'll see it released minus proprietary matyerial as a Cortex+ supers RPG?

And does anyone know anything about the health of the M&M 3e-powered DC Adventures RPG?

Quote from: The Butcher;648969And does anyone know anything about the health of the M&M 3e-powered DC Adventures RPG?

DCA was designed to be a 4-book release, and book 4 is at the printers. They had some major stalls and changed release dates, but all 4 books will see print.

Quote from: The Butcher;648969The collectible model centered around fiction tie-ins was bad, but maybe it was contract-mandated. It really is the hare-brained sort of thing that you'd expect from a clueless suit.

I don't think you can overstate how stupid this was, especially a tie-in to a really divisive and old event like 'Civil War'.

QuoteAnd does anyone know anything about the health of the M&M 3e-powered DC Adventures RPG?

I think it just released the last of the planned big 4 setting books?

They might have made more money just taking the old TSR game, slightly tweaking it, and putting new stats in the back for all the heroes and villains. Not sure of the legality of that though, as I'm not sure Marvel actually owned the game itself. I'm almost certain DC owns DC Heroes though, which IMO is better than what actually has happened: them licensing out their heroes and villains for Mutants & Masterminds.

I was reading the lamentations thread over at Big Purple about this earlier, and I was struck by two things: first, a lot of anger directed at Marvel, with one poster going so far as to imply that 'a lot of Marvel fans wouldn't forget this insult,' and second, that the terms of the license were too restrictive on MWP.

Newsflash, kids: Marvel wants to make money off the license, and if the game didn't move enough product, this is what happens. There weren't enough gamers interested in either the game or the supplement[strike]s[/strike], period. The market has spoken.

I'm sure a lot of those Marvel "fans" probably get their weekly fix of books off of P2P.

Quote from: Endless Flight;648988I'm sure a lot of those Marvel "fans" probably get their weekly fix of books off of P2P.

Comic fans rival Star Wars fans for sheer bitchy-ness.

If I had a nickel for everything someone swore off comics "FOREVER!" after some "insult" I'd probably be more profitable than Marvel or DC

Quote from: Black Vulmea;648985I was reading the lamentations thread over at Big Purple about this earlier, and I was struck by two things: first, a lot of anger directed at Marvel, with one poster going so far as to imply that 'a lot of Marvel fans wouldn't forget this insult,' and second, that the terms of the license were too restrictive on MWP.

Newsflash, kids: Marvel wants to make money off the license, and if the game didn't move enough product, this is what happens. There weren't enough gamers interested in either the game or the supplement[strike]s[/strike], period. The market has spoken.

Similar conversations on various G+ threads this evening.

I'm flabbergasted that people can't understand this whole thing.  MWP and Marvel signed an agreement of some sort.  It wasn't working out (profit-wise? we presume, but we don't know), so MWP and Marvel did not renew the agreement.  Making Marvel "the bad guy" in this saga is anti-corporate oppressed-nerd BS.  Everyone involved in the deal is an adult.

Despite MHRPG being a darling in certain circles, it was weirdly packaged and not marketed outside of regular rpg channels.  Given that, it could _never_ make enough money for Marvel to get excited about it.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;648985I was reading the lamentations thread over at Big Purple about this earlier, and I was struck by two things: first, a lot of anger directed at Marvel, with one poster going so far as to imply that 'a lot of Marvel fans wouldn't forget this insult,' and second, that the terms of the license were too restrictive on MWP.

Newsflash, kids: Marvel wants to make money off the license, and if the game didn't move enough product, this is what happens. There weren't enough gamers interested in either the game or the supplement[strike]s[/strike], period. The market has spoken.

I'm not particularly ANGRY at Marvel...but after three aborted Marvel RPG runs in a row, I can't imagine ever getting excited about another Marvel RPG again, regardless of the promises, mechanics or designers.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;649019I'm not particularly ANGRY at Marvel...but after three aborted Marvel RPG runs in a row, I can't imagine ever getting excited about another Marvel RPG again, regardless of the promises, mechanics or designers.

Which three are we talking about here? TSR's run was something like seven years, with boxed sets, dozens of supplements and adventures, and a slew of Dragon articles. MWP managed a game book and an adventure.

In any case, I'm sure Marvel will be thinking twice about licensing roleplaying games in the future, at least to niche publishers with boutique systems.

Quote from: Piestrio;648993Comic fans rival Star Wars fans for sheer bitchy-ness.

If I had a nickel for everything someone swore off comics "FOREVER!" after some "insult" I'd probably be more profitable than Marvel or DC

I'm still angry at Marvel for replacing Giant-Man and the Wasp with that Namor creep in Tales to Astonish back in '65.

I got over it though.

Eventually.

Do comic fans even overlap with RPG fans anymore?  All the younger people I know who are into Pathfinder or whatever are completely disinterested in comic books.  Meanwhile, all the older people I know who are still into RPGs can't stand modern comics.  It's completely different from the 80s and early 90s where all RPG fans were into Conan or X-Men or some other comic title.

Quote from: Gabriel2;649041Do comic fans even overlap with RPG fans anymore?  All the younger people I know who are into Pathfinder or whatever are completely disinterested in comic books.  Meanwhile, all the older people I know who are still into RPGs can't stand modern comics.  It's completely different from the 80s and early 90s where all RPG fans were into Conan or X-Men or some other comic title.

I'd be into Hellblazer, if modern writers didn't turn it into a steaming pile of reboots and goo. Papa Midnite's story being retconned to show him as a Victum of White Menz Evil, then depicting him as Snoop Dog 2.0 was the ultimate blow to Hellblazer for me. When I picked that story up, I expected a bloodthirsty tale of a man crazy for power, ultimately sacrificing his sister in order to become a Houngan, not the pile of garbage it turned out to be.

Jokes aside - yeah, I think we are. I never was much into superhero comics (with the exception of the last Czarnian), preferring the European comics.

I've been thinking about this for a long time (at least a few years), and I'm always surprised when I see a mainstream IP still in the RPG market.  I imagine IP holders, many who don't know or play RPGs in the least bit, want a substantial amount of money for a license.  And the RPG market simply isn't big enough to support that.

All the cool IPs from the 70s and 80s are owned by large corporations now (like TMNT), so I don't see any of those coming back either.

Time for some creative person to create another cool IP to go off of

Quote from: Sacrosanct;649045I've been thinking about this for a long time (at least a few years), and I'm always surprised when I see a mainstream IP still in the RPG market.  I imagine IP holders, many who don't know or play RPGs in the least bit, want a substantial amount of money for a license.  And the RPG market simply isn't big enough to support that.

All the cool IPs from the 70s and 80s are owned by large corporations now (like TMNT), so I don't see any of those coming back either.

Time for some creative person to create another cool IP to go off of

Some don't. Or in other cases, such as FFG getting the Warhammer and now Star Wars, the RPGs are just the icing on the cake. I suspect that Warhammer was sold under a condition of producing an RPG, but I'd not wager on that - GW never cared much for the RPG after the 90s.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;649036Which three are we talking about here? TSR's run was something like seven years, with boxed sets, dozens of supplements and adventures, and a slew of Dragon articles. MWP managed a game book and an adventure.

In any case, I'm sure Marvel will be thinking twice about licensing roleplaying games in the future, at least to niche publishers with boutique systems.

Marvel SAGA, Marvel Universe (published by Marvel themselves and having the smallest number of releases) and Marvel Heroic.

I agree with the feeling here, the books had very high production values and the designers were clearly passionate about them, but were clearly based on a absurdly wrong business strategy.

Centering the game around Marvel events, not having many of the iconic characters on the core book, not having even character creation rules in it, and making the power rules too similar, those were its faults.

Of course, even if they didn't make these, IMHO, mistakes, we aren't sure Marvel wouldn't have pulled the plug as well, as Marvel Saga and Marvel Universe were also cut short.

On the other hand, Green Ronin's policy for the DCA book is apparently solid, as they have just released the last planned book, and used it to spearhead the new M&M edition, for which they are releasing genre books (Supernatural Handbook,  and the upcoming Cosmic Handbook, for instance), which always seemed to me a good decision, from when I picked 2nd Ed onward.

Quote from: Bland Joe Dwarf;649050Marvel Universe were also cut short.

That was a mercy killing, and also no loss.  That was absolutely unplayable drek.  I'd even posit the hypothesis that it poisoned any potential audience against any future Marvel game.  I know the craptacularity of Marvel Universe definitely contributed to me not picking up Marvel Heroic out of curiousity.

Good.

Glad to see another license no longer tied to such a shitty system...

Maybe MWP will finally realize what a stinking pile of donkey dung Cortex really is...

Nah... wont happen...

alas...

Quote from: VectorSigma;649012Despite MHRPG being a darling in certain circles, it was weirdly packaged and not marketed outside of regular rpg channels.  Given that, it could _never_ make enough money for Marvel to get excited about it.

Well, I had to get my copy from Amazon as there was no proper distrubtion to the EU/UK for this game, which was not a good sign with hindsight.

And frankly given that they included the core rules with every major event (the premium edition - and the annihilation premium edition includes more character generation stuff, which is a bit of a rip), it was rather pointless buying the core book ultimately. Breakout was never going to set the fans ablaze in terms of fan service.

I don't think it's fair to call it a collectible product, but while this makes me a little sad, I suppose given the distribution it was inevitable. I don't think it does MWP any favours at all: this has hardly been out five minutes!

First of all, 'Other games', seriously? That's just sad.

I didn't pick up MHR as the mechanics seemed a little too fiddly for my tastes. Also having found a great fit with ICONS my curiosity for other supers games (and there have been a number of well regarded ones released recently) is limited. But still, it deserved a longer run.

Also, whether comics books sales are in decline or roleplayers still read comics kind of misses the points. Marvel these days is about the movies, and they've been among the biggest movies in recent times. The genre has never had a higher profile.

Quote from: Piestrio;648993Comic fans rival Star Wars fans for sheer bitchy-ness.

I'd include D&D fans for the NerdWhine trifecta.

Anyway sucky news for MWP, those working on the line and for fans of the game (I liked it myself, although it was a trial at first)

I liked the event-based nature of the releases but fuck was Civil War not divisive enough already? They should have led with Age of Apocalypse or Secret Wars or something.

I'm more concerned that we might never see another Marvel game. I can't imagine tabletop rpg's are even a tiny blip on the Mouses radar, and even if they were who could afford it now?

Quote from: Raven;649088I'm more concerned that we might never see another Marvel game. I can't imagine tabletop rpg's are even a tiny blip on the Mouses radar, and even if they were who could afford it now?

Don't know, but if Star Wars (also owned by Disney) and DC can be bothered to licence a roleplaying game I guess there is still some value in it. It may not be a big money stream but it could still be part of an overall, wider advertising/brand awareness strategy. I have absolutely no idea.

Isn't this the third Marvel game cancelled in 15 years? Perhaps we'll see another in 2018.

As for the previous games Marvel Saga and Marvel Universe, both had their problems and weren't well received (sales), but Marvel Saga is rare as hens teeth these days and tricky to get hold of (prices up) and the Marvel Universe game probably required a revised edition to make it work better. It (Marvel Universe) wasn't a bad game though combat was too predictable (blow your load in the first round and hope the death spiral doesn't strike you first) which is not great in supers games, which concentrate mostly on how hard and flashy you hit another guy for the most part.

Marvel Heroic fell into that niche (quirky games) for me. Having just a D8, D10 and D12 describe just about every character bunched everyone up. Sure it lets everyone play in the same team and not feel left out, but certain heavy hitters are and should be so far above the street level guys that it makes the game less credible. Hulk and Thor could clean the clocks of the rest of the Avengers on their own, but here was a game that brought them down several notches and raised the weaker characters up. An interesting approach, but maybe too different for traditional gamers.

And that's who it seems the game was aimed at. You had to know about the game (forums I guess, in the absence of any other advertising) it was tricky to get hold of outside of the US (amazon or bust, for me) and you had to be prepared to read and re-read some of the core book to get your head round it. It wasn't aimed at kids (13+ I believe was the target), the distribution was botched and it was an unconventional system. The license was probably so expensive/restrictive that it required X number of copies sold to break even so I guess MWP did the right thing (for them) and cancelled it to avoid it sucking them down into the abyss.

I admire their efforts though, and Cam Banks has been tireless in his efforts to sell it. It's a tough market out there though (supers games are bulging at the seams with regards choice) and being different/quirky was always going to be a tough sell.

RIP Marvel Heroic.

This has clearly been on the cards since at least Christmas given how massively delayed Annihilation was (and still isn't in print). Did they know they couldn't get a wider distribution? No wonder it didn't sell enough.

Sad that innovation however is met with intransigence.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;649099This has clearly been on the cards since at least Christmas given how massively delayed Annihilation was (and still isn't in print). Did they know they couldn't get a wider distribution? No wonder it didn't sell enough.

Sad that innovation however is met with intransigence.

Who has been intransigent?  The horrible mean people who didn't get into the game?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;649084Well, I had to get my copy from Amazon as there was no proper distrubtion to the EU/UK for this game, which was not a good sign with hindsight.

Apparently that was an issue with the license.

RPG books do not afford such licenses for long.  It's usually a one-time deal and a print run is made, and that's that.  But adding to, or modifying, a license (another book) was too much money (and not enough Cortex+'ers).

I like the old Cortex used in Serenity.  That was complex enough for newbies to RPGs.

Quote from: VectorSigma;649105Who has been intransigent?  The horrible mean people who didn't get into the game?

No, the horrible mean people that rubbish anything just because it's different.

Sad really. Do we want all games to be the same?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;649112No, the horrible mean people that rubbish anything just because it's different.

Sad really. Do we want all games to be the same?

Are most superhero RPGs similar, or are they completely different from each other?  I come from the camp that wants superheroes to fit in with regular joe characters without changing the skill check mechanic.

A shame. I am a huge super hero genre fan, and have considered using MHRP with the metagame elements removed. Interesting core system.

I hope this does not stop others from such ambitious projects in the future.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;649122Are most superhero RPGs similar, or are they completely different from each other?  I come from the camp that wants superheroes to fit in with regular joe characters without changing the skill check mechanic.

There are a ton of superhero rpgs and they are diverse.

Its a difficult genre for game mechanics.

Consider:

Robin and Superman go on an adventure.....

One is an elite skilled and gifted human being, the other is over a million times human norm in all areas.

Can be a challenge for game mechanics to handle that.

Quote from: Soylent Green;649086First of all, 'Other games', seriously? That's just sad.

:rolleyes:

It's only an RPG if you consider it a Comic Writer simulator. This whole "conflict" between RPGs and Storygames is only alive because the attempted rebranding of the term "RPG" apparently continues.

Quote from: VectorSigma;649105Who has been intransigent?  The horrible mean people who didn't get into the game?

(http://somethingsensitive.com/Smileys/default/ultimatelibrage.gif): "It is your sworn duty as a gamer to support the innovative storygames, even if you do not like them! Because Innovation is Law!"

Of course, if the innovation can't hold on to the market, it means it wasn't just that great of an innovation.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;649112No, the horrible mean people that rubbish anything just because it's different.

Sad really. Do we want all games to be the same?

Are you still drunk/high from celebrating Thatcher's death? Because I can see no other explanation from writing such nonsense. "If you dislike a thing B that is different than thing A, that menas you want everything to be like thing A". It's a bizarre, ridiculous train of thought. I like various RPG systems/mechanics, if only because some do a specific job better than others.

And yes I am sure all this "rubbishing" of MHS on Rpgsite was what it's proved it's downfall. Not those "innovative mechanics", which probably turned off most people away, or marketing the game to the RPG/Storygame crowd only - which was a part of the problem with the mechanics, because stuff that fiddly needs an experienced player to handle.

Quote from: Bill;649157A shame. I am a huge super hero genre fan, and have considered using MHRP with the metagame elements removed. Interesting core system.

I hope this does not stop others from such ambitious projects in the future.

If you remove the metagame, you get something between just Cortex and poor man's Savage Worlds. So nothing that interesting IMO.

Quote from: Bill;649158There are a ton of superhero rpgs and they are diverse.

Its a difficult genre for game mechanics.

Consider:

Robin and Superman go on an adventure.....

One is an elite skilled and gifted human being, the other is over a million times human norm in all areas.

Can be a challenge for game mechanics to handle that.

You can say the same thing about Wizard vs Fighter debate, so to speak. That's why the storygaming kool - aid has so many supporters in regard to Storygames = RPGs - because if you shift RPGs focus from being a character to being a part of a story, you get an array of metagaming tools that allow you to keep balance in people's importance in the party.

Nobody said that writing an RPG is easy.

Quote from: Rincewind1;649161:rolleyes:

It's only an RPG if you consider it a Comic Writer simulator. This whole "conflict" between RPGs and Storygames is only alive because the attempted rebranding of the term "RPG" apparently continues.





(http://somethingsensitive.com/Smileys/default/ultimatelibrage.gif): "It is your sworn duty as a gamer to support the innovative storygames, even if you do not like them! Because Innovation is Law!"

Of course, if the innovation can't hold on to the market, it means it wasn't just that great of an innovation.



Are you still drunk/high from celebrating Thatcher's death? Because I can see no other explanation from writing such nonsense. "If you dislike a thing B that is different than thing A, that menas you want everything to be like thing A". It's a bizarre, ridiculous train of thought. I like various RPG systems/mechanics, if only because some do a specific job better than others.

And yes I am sure all this "rubbishing" of MHS on Rpgsite was what it's proved it's downfall. Not those "innovative mechanics", which probably turned off most people away, or marketing the game to the RPG/Storygame crowd only - which was a part of the problem with the mechanics, because stuff that fiddly needs an experienced player to handle.



If you remove the metagame, you get something between just Cortex and poor man's Savage Worlds. So nothing that interesting IMO.



You can say the same thing about Wizard vs Fighter debate, so to speak. That's why the storygaming kool - aid has so many supporters in regard to Storygames = RPGs - because if you shift RPGs focus from being a character to being a part of a story, you get an array of metagaming tools that allow you to keep balance in people's importance in the party.

Nobody said that writing an RPG is easy.

100% pure Polish win

BTW that 4th and last DC book is out on DTRPG, it's only 224 pages for the DCverse though, which seems not that detailed.  Then again, I guess it would have to be 18 volumes just to hold all the retcon bullshit.

Quote from: Bill;649158There are a ton of superhero rpgs and they are diverse.

Its a difficult genre for game mechanics.

Consider:

Robin and Superman go on an adventure.....

One is an elite skilled and gifted human being, the other is over a million times human norm in all areas.

Can be a challenge for game mechanics to handle that.

It's not a challenge for game mechanics to handle that, and handle it well. The challenge is getting game mechanics that handle that, that don't suck throbbing purple donkey dick to actually play.

Why are people still clinging to the notion that MHR was some kind of Stan Lee Simulator? I've literally never heard so much nonsense!

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;649307Why are people still clinging to the notion that MHR was some kind of Stan Lee Simulator? I've literally never heard so much nonsense!

You should read some of your posts (those in this thread will do) out loud, then.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;649307Why are people still clinging to the notion that MHR was some kind of Stan Lee Simulator? I've literally never heard so much nonsense!

I picked up a copy today, out of curiosity, after having only skimmed through the thing when it first came out and read some reviews.

I will endeavor to approach it with an open mind just for you, GW, but as a bit of an unfashionable dullard, I do worry that the innovations may be over my head.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;649307Why are people still clinging to the notion that MHR was some kind of Stan Lee Simulator? I've literally never heard so much nonsense!

Because it's exactly how the game presents itself, and what it's built to achieve.

Quote from: Endless Flight;648983They might have made more money just taking the old TSR game, slightly tweaking it, and putting new stats in the back for all the heroes and villains. Not sure of the legality of that though, as I'm not sure Marvel actually owned the game itself. I'm almost certain DC owns DC Heroes though, which IMO is better than what actually has happened: them licensing out their heroes and villains for Mutants & Masterminds.

TSR owned the game system and Marvel owned the rights to the characters, and long ago the system was released for free online with tacit approval from WoTC, who couldn't do anything with it anyways due to the split rights issue.

So basically, you can get the entire gameline (one of the most heavily supported gamelines in history) for free in pdf form at any number of sites (MarvelClassic is my favourite), and there have been numerous fan updates /reworkings of the system, including the 4C retroclone, the Dillygreenbean games one, and Icons, which just slapped a Fudge resolution mechanic on the game.

Quote from: Gabriel2;649053That was a mercy killing, and also no loss.  That was absolutely unplayable drek.  I'd even posit the hypothesis that it poisoned any potential audience against any future Marvel game.  I know the craptacularity of Marvel Universe definitely contributed to me not picking up Marvel Heroic out of curiousity.

Funny, its one of my favourite systems. It wasn't explained well (although those of us that got the preview in Inquest released before the game found all the rules very clearly laid out in that 5-page document so the gamebook was just a resource), the layout was confusing, and the writing was drek. But the system was gold.

Quote from: TristramEvans;649383Funny, its one of my favourite systems. It wasn't explained well (although those of us that got the preview in Inquest released before the game found all the rules very clearly laid out in that 5-page document so the gamebook was just a resource), the layout was confusing, and the writing was drek. But the system was gold.

Was that the system with the stones? Because, that system was quite good, and like the first Marvel RPG (FASERIP), ahead of it's time.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;649384Was that the system with the stones? Because, that system was quite good, and like the first Marvel RPG (FASERIP), ahead of it's time.

Thats the one. I'd love to rework it sometime. Maybe after I finish my update/genericization of the original FASERIP rules.

MHRP is one of the worst game books I've read in years.  

It was ludicrously overdesigned and overcomplicated half the time, and utterly underdeveloped and oversimplified in others, the writing was sloppy, the rules explanations denser than Hulk's thigh bones, and of course it all hinged on bizarre metagaming bullshit instead of even the pretense that the game world was anything but something invented for the players to go through pre-written adventure railroads with only minimal contribution while still having the illusion of freedom.

It was every single fucking thing that is wrong in RPGs all in one disgusting jumble, like a bucket of corn-syrup-glazed chicken topped with transfat flakes served in a slurry of hydrolyzed soy protein and washed down with raw vegan wheatgrass juice.

Its failure is just about the most predictable thing I can imagine.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;649122Are most superhero RPGs similar, or are they completely different from each other?  I come from the camp that wants superheroes to fit in with regular joe characters without changing the skill check mechanic.

What does this mean?
Could you unpack that a bit..?

A universal skill/task check that can be used the same way whether your character is Joe Shmoe average, or Hulk Buster way-above-average.  I'm just talking about the die mechanic.  Individual character quests are a different thing.  Joe Shmoe may not have much impact on the fabric of time and space, while another character stresses a lot about it.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;649426A universal skill/task check that can be used the same way whether your character is Joe Shmoe average, or Hulk Buster way-above-average.  I'm just talking about the die mechanic.  Individual character quests are a different thing.  Joe Shmoe may not have much impact on the fabric of time and space, while another character stresses a lot about it.

OK thanks...are there any systems that change the basic skill check mechanics for super characters vs. normal characters, though? I can't think of any (why I was puzzled I guess).

Licensed settings are a terrible idea always always always. Also, I didn't like the game. I tried to read it because I've never been interested in superheroic gaming and I thought that maybe it could be worth a check. Not worth my time. Don't like the Cortex system.

Quote from: Benoist;649366Because it's exactly how the game presents itself, and what it's built to achieve.

except that it isn't. at all.

I think I've had it explained to me that it's not a superhero rpg, it's a comic book rpg. In that it means things are more likely to happen truer to the comics - wasp saving the day, a lamppost (D8 asset) falls over and cracks the bad guy on the head just as he's about to press the button and the power of a characters monologue (Captain America etc) might be enough to have the villains shed a tear and pledge allegiance to the flag before they are carted off in chains. That's why there are no traditional stats - strength, agility etc, and you get all these traits and distinctions and what not instead.

That's how I understand it. From my point of view it was possibly the best way I've seen (thus far) of combining Robin and Superman (or Daredevil and Thor) on the same team without the weaker characters player feeling redundant. On the flipside its not a traditional game and had me grinding my teeth when I got it. It is still an RPG, despite this 'other games' tag on here, but it's an odd one that brings strong characters down and weak characters up to meet in the middle.

Anyway, it's gone. I'm sad for the folks at MWP who really busted a gut on this thing, but it's another failed Marvel RPG, and probably forgotten about in a year save for die hard fans.

As for the Marvel Universe (Diceless) game, it was poorly written, but there is a gem of an idea in there. Just need to fix the death spiral (have health points separate from energy. Done.) and change the 'all in then nothing' approach of combat. I introduced dice to my fix, and whilst it's not finished you can compare stones to a target number or use some/all of your stones to roll a die, so that you might get less bang for buck, or more, but it spices things up.

It seems like just yesterday I had intended to run a premiere party at ICON dressed as The Watcher before my head prosthetic was crushed by two girls making out in a hotel room (long story, and FAR less exciting than it sounds). However, I think now MWP is free to take what they learned from MHR and improve upon it.

I think the biggest killer (as in killed the line) feature were the dice requirements. I literally never had enough dice to run it, and I have more than 5 sets. And at this point if you want an RPG to be mainstream, it needs to come with everything you need at point of purchase.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;649019I'm not particularly ANGRY at Marvel...but after three aborted Marvel RPG runs in a row, I can't imagine ever getting excited about another Marvel RPG again, regardless of the promises, mechanics or designers.

Marvel Universe was killed for internal political reasons.

And of all the RPG licenses out there, Marvel has been the one that has attracted the most innovation. From FASERIP to SAGA to Universe to Heroic; they all added something that was worth paying attention to if you were a game designer.

So I for one am looking forward to to what comes next, if anything.

Quote from: Gabriel2;649041Do comic fans even overlap with RPG fans anymore?

Good question, as I'm finding even less overlap between Tabletop and LARPers these days.

Have geeks become more specialized?

Quote from: Soylent Green;649086First of all, 'Other games', seriously? That's just sad.

Dude, how long have you been here?

Quote from: Imperator;649432Licensed settings are a terrible idea always always always.

I'm pointing to my nose.

Quote from: J Arcane;649386MHRP is one of the worst game books I've read in years.  

It was ludicrously overdesigned and overcomplicated half the time, and utterly underdeveloped and oversimplified in others, the writing was sloppy, the rules explanations denser than Hulk's thigh bones, and of course it all hinged on bizarre metagaming bullshit instead of even the pretense that the game world was anything but something invented for the players to go through pre-written adventure railroads with only minimal contribution while still having the illusion of freedom.

It was every single fucking thing that is wrong in RPGs all in one disgusting jumble, like a bucket of corn-syrup-glazed chicken topped with transfat flakes served in a slurry of hydrolyzed soy protein and washed down with raw vegan wheatgrass juice.

Its failure is just about the most predictable thing I can imagine.

Stop messing about and say what's on your mind! :D

So what was it about Marvel Universe that made it popular (with those that liked it)?

Marvel Universe didn't use dice. You had a bunch of numbers on a sheet which limited how much energy you could spend, a bunch of energy points (stones, chits, whatever you wanted to use) and spent them to accomplish actions. Equal or exceed the target number and you succeed. When it came to contests between characters you compare the totals of one character and another, highest wins.

The problems (and there are a few) as I saw it were that there was a death spiral, so taking a hit would reduce your energy pool, thus your ability to act and defend yourself, so it was only a matter of time before you went down. Combat was a front loaded affair. In the first round you threw everything in to chip away at the other guys health (and therefore his energy pool). Once that was done you could relax some, and keep chipping away in the sure knowledge the other guy was going down. Modifiers gave 'free stones' or free energy in effect to certain tasks. That made them vital, and most were quite cheap for what they did. Some powers were so vague and hand waving in their description that you weren't quite sure what the heck you could do with them. Everything? Anything? Nothing? Masteries (like the Human Torches mastery of fire, Magnetos mastery of Magnetism etc) allowed you to really rack up the cost with added options and make other characters feel somewhat redundant.

Min/Max gamers could really screw the system for all it was worth and turn out starting characters that would take down Thor. They couldn't do anything else mind, but Thor is an example of someone who has massive stone counts and modifiers (that hammer, for instance, and his belt) and he really was a heavy hitter.

None of these problems is insurmountable.

I believe there is a place for a resource management based supers game, but I would include dice. Instead of comparing your stone total to the target number, you could instead buy a die (easy enough - D6 costs 3 stones, D8 costs 4 stones etc). That would break the cycle of predictable combat. Say if Spiderman hit Hulk with 10 stones, you know that Hulks toughness of 7 will mean spidey inflicts 3 damage. With my proposed system Spidermans player could buy a D20 (for his 10 stones) and roll that to see how he does. He might roll 10 or lower, and actually lose out. He might roll 11 or more, and inflict even more damage on not so jolly green, but it brings another option to the game. Still resource based, but you can buy dice instead of relying on the numbers you have on the sheet. After all, comics are full of unlikely victors in fights (Spiderman vs Firelord, for example).

But yeah, the rules as written were a mess, for the most part. The potential was there, but the game was cancelled before any more books (than the three initial tomes) appeared.

As for why it was popular? It was a Marvel game, thus a must buy in many peoples mind. That brings great art, nice production values and (we hoped) reams of background material. Character sheets were easy to read, character creation was easy and fast, the game (as written) was easy to play for the first few sessions. It was something different, and you needed only the Action chart to have an idea of what difficulty numbers should be used. The books were low page count, digest size.

If the rules had been more clearly written, and the vague/broken bits fixed, it would have been a far better, easier to sell game.

Oh, and it also plays very well by post. Check out Marvel Universe RPG (http://murpg.proboards.com). There was an attempt to make a ver 2.0 but that seems to have fizzled...

Disney owns Marvel.  Hasbro owns WOTC.  Hasbro has made games for Disney in the past.  Lightning may strike again.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;649486Disney owns Marvel.  Hasbro owns WOTC.  Hasbro has made games for Disney in the past.  Lightning may strike again.

Hasbro can't even manage to make games based on their own IP much of the time...I wouldn't hold your breath.

Fortunately, we have the wonderful original Marvel Super Heroes
http://www.classicmarvelforever.com/cms/

I kinda expected this after getting the game and playing it a few times.  But the lack of main big named characters like Thor, Hulk, Silver Surfer, etc., really was a bummer and was a strain on a GM who wanted to run his own game world and campaign to me and I think that was it's biggest downfall which eventually had me stop playing it, not to mention the shit-load of dice you had to constantly have available to play and the d6-d12 limited scope of character abilities was so small, made you feel everyone was cookie cutter-like.

IDK but the Cortex system really is shit when you think about it for anything beyond a normal or Sci-Fi level, like Serenity or Battlestar Galactica (another unfinished line), the only two games of Cortex I did like.

I think they really dropped Marvel because of Firefly and couldn't keep Marvel going at the same time or something, but Firefly's going to be shit because it's going to be using the new Cortex+ or some other wanky system of Cortex Storytelling bullshit probably.:rant:

Wasn't dropping MHRP Marvel's decision, not theirs? Which means that simple failure to meet revenue expectations was the suspect. Either Marvel was unhappy and cut them off, or they were giving such a big cut to Marvel for the licence, that they were not breaking even given copies sold.

As Kruger once told me (I only remember 'cos I re - read that thread, lad) Firefly was based on Cortex, starting with Buffy I believe it was Cortex+ (Well, it started with Witchcraft if I remember correctly but I meant tv shows - wise).

Quote from: Rincewind1;649658Wasn't dropping MHRP Marvel's decision, not theirs? Which means that simple failure to meet revenue expectations was the suspect. Either Marvel was unhappy and cut them off, or they were giving such a big cut to Marvel for the licence, that they were not breaking even given copies sold.

As Kruger once told me (I only remember 'cos I re - read that thread, lad) Firefly was based on Cortex, starting with Buffy I believe it was Cortex+ (Well, it started with Witchcraft if I remember correctly but I meant tv shows - wise).

The intarwebz would probably tell you. From what I recall, Firefly and Supernatural are both Cortex, Smallville is Cortex+, dunno what order they were released in though (and I haven't seen any Cortex+ systems except Marvel close-up to compare them). Not sure about the rest.

I imagine Marvel are unlikely to have realistic expectations about revenue from an RPG property. I think it'd be quite possible Weis would re-release a generic supers version of MHR at some point however.

Buffy and Angel were Eden Studies, not MWP, I believe.

Quote from: Novastar;649674Buffy and Angel were Eden Studies, not MWP, I believe.

I confused it with Smallville, yes. Buffy even runs a whole different system. Stupid stupid me :o. I mixed up Cortex+ with Unisystem - that's what you get when you go on forums during a late night Soprano marathon/working.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;649670The intarwebz would probably tell you. From what I recall, Firefly and Supernatural are both Cortex, Smallville is Cortex+, dunno what order they were released in though (and I haven't seen any Cortex+ systems except Marvel close-up to compare them). Not sure about the rest.

I imagine Marvel are unlikely to have realistic expectations about revenue from an RPG property. I think it'd be quite possible Weis would re-release a generic supers version of MHR at some point however.

Well, something had to happen for the RPG to drop like a cement ball. Seeing as it was hailed to "sell like hot cakes", it must've been not turning that profit for some reason, and I expect licencing is the most likely - or overblowing the art budget?

Leverage is also Cortex+, otherwise you are spot on.

Unfortunately the "collectible" accusations are kind of true. They gave no character creation system that made any kind of sense; they merely said time and time again that the Marvel characters in the game were built in no logical manner except that they included whatever 'fit best' for the concept. I appreciate that for signature characters but, um... when I buy a roleplaying game, I expect there to be rules on making those roles.

In other words, they kind of infantilized their fans but forcing them to simply buy more supplements so they could have the heroes and villains they wanted but give little to no logic on how to build your own.

What a strange, strange decision.

I'm not bashing the game in play. It was a fun dice-combat game. Felt there were barely any rules tying together combat scenes so I wasn't too on board with this as a typical rpg but, I will say, that it felt like a Marvel comic book and combats were fun.

well. Just got a 30-day ban on Big Purp for my MWP "good riddance to bad rubbish" post.

Gotta love their Mods.

The game was "Story-ish" & didn't translate well to many gamers (based on what I was reading across the interweb). Plot points? okay.

Grubbs had a better game (TSR's classic MSH) & maybe MWP ignored that legacy, unlike Kenson, who kept the DC Heroes mecha in his own game.

I'm glad Disney pulled the carpet from under MWP & it sends a clear message: our license trumps your fiddly game concept. Pay me or (bleep) off.

when I suggested Arc Dreams or Kenson or Fantasy Games Unlimited might do a better job with the license, a rpg.net mod banned me, profanity & all.

nice.

note: the Mod used the profanity.

Whatever happened to Cinematic Unisystem?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;649760Whatever happened to Cinematic Unisystem?

Company went under.

Quote from: Piestrio;649773Company went under.

Eden Studios died? The website is still up and the facebook page seems lively and they had a Kickstarter back in October for All Flesh Must Be Eaten: Band of Zombies.

Eden Studios (http://www.edenstudios.net/) didn't quite go under but it's scaled back its operations dramatically from its heyday.

It is still cranking out product, albeit at a snail's pace. They got a bunch of Conspiracy X sourcebooks funded on Kickstarter, and they also funded a WWII supplement for AFMBE (this sounds like fun) with its latest update (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1801360072/all-flesh-must-be-eaten-rpg-band-of-zombies-source/posts) merely ten days ago.

A pity really, but I'm happy that they're managing to soldier on. Armageddon was one of the best games I never played. And I still hope to see Beyond Human one of these days, but I'm not holding my breath.

Quote from: The Butcher;649802Eden Studios (http://www.edenstudios.net/) didn't quite go under but it's scaled back its operations dramatically from its heyday.

It is still cranking out product, albeit at a snail's pace. They got a bunch of Conspiracy X sourcebooks funded on Kickstarter, and they also funded a WWII supplement for AFMBE (this sounds like fun) with its latest update (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1801360072/all-flesh-must-be-eaten-rpg-band-of-zombies-source/posts) merely ten days ago.

A pity really, but I'm happy that they're managing to soldier on. Armageddon was one of the best games I never played. And I still hope to see Beyond Human one of these days, but I'm not holding my breath.

Beyond Human will be their next kickstarter. The Conspiracies Sourcebook for ConX and Band of Zombies, the WW II supplement for AFMBE, will be released sometime within the next couple of months.

Eden made Army of Darkness? Now I feel bad for throwing them into same bucket as MWP.

Quote from: Rincewind1;649877Eden made Army of Darkness? Now I feel bad for throwing them into same bucket as MWP.

Yes. And IMHO it's quite a fun game, nothing like Cortex+.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;649896Yes. And IMHO it's quite a fun game, nothing like Cortex+.

I know, I have it. I never bothered to check who made it though, I got it as a gift from a buddy returning home.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;649867Beyond Human will be their next kickstarter. The Conspiracies Sourcebook for ConX and Band of Zombies, the WW II supplement for AFMBE, will be released sometime within the next couple of months.

ConX was very much, like it's inspiration, a product of it's time. Not sure that time still exists, even with the likes of David Icke to draw 'inspiration' from.

I don't regret buying MHR at all, and would probably have brought Annihilation. Civil War doesn't interest me at all, but that's the risk you take basing it on established universes.

I do regret inexplicably throwing out my MSHAG cards.

And lending out my DC Heroes first edition many years ago (I never forget, nor forgive!)

Don't know where this leaves the Cortex + book they've got planned.

I really like MSH, but we've already got the hardcore points-optimised superhero games (M&M3, HERO 6) and simple, fast adventure (MSH, ICONS) pretty well covered. From an existing RPG fan point of view, there's room for a game that does something else, rather than just retreading the same ground (Fans of which already have their own games), and the core approach - "So this is a game that lets you play superheroes in the Civil War era of comics" - is a really good one, and potentially very accessible to non-RPG players.

Did it work well enough? Well, evidently not. Given that sales would have been enough to keep the line going, the problem evidently isn't the game mechanics, because people aren't getting that far. The problem is getting people to pick up that first book, as always. It's not that non-RPG people don't want this Marvel RPG, it's that non-RPG people don't want any Marvel RPG.

Nobody outside the RPG "community" even gives a shit about the storygame "issue". As far as they're concerned, it's nerds arguing about stupid nerd bullshit.

Quote from: tunafish;649691well. Just got a 30-day ban on Big Purp for my MWP "good riddance to bad rubbish" post.

What the fuck did you expect? "Quality trolling sir, have an internets"? Complimentary blowjob from Shannon? Gold star on your profile, and re-plumping the cushions for your seat on the internet short bus?

Don't come bragging to us just because you're a cunt elsewhere on the internet.

Quote from: tunafish;649691well. Just got a 30-day ban on Big Purp for my MWP "good riddance to bad rubbish" post.

Gotta love their Mods.

The game was "Story-ish" & didn't translate well to many gamers (based on what I was reading across the interweb). Plot points? okay.

Grubbs had a better game (TSR's classic MSH) & maybe MWP ignored that legacy, unlike Kenson, who kept the DC Heroes mecha in his own game.

I'm glad Disney pulled the carpet from under MWP & it sends a clear message: our license trumps your fiddly game concept. Pay me or (bleep) off.

when I suggested Arc Dreams or Kenson or Fantasy Games Unlimited might do a better job with the license, a rpg.net mod banned me, profanity & all.

nice.

note: the Mod used the profanity.

(https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=5nwTW5HQLSFI1M&tbnid=Iv_YK8d9f_FDWM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailypaul.com%2F262480%2Fromney-and-ryan-cant-believe-their-loss-cbs-article&ei=VoV9Uce0N_S14AP-y4C4Cg&bvm=bv.45645796,d.dmg&psig=AFQjCNEUHbF5DBrggBtJNb7K5Bw02UIxQg&ust=1367267016293084)

Quote from: tunafish;649691well. Just got a 30-day ban on Big Purp for my MWP "good riddance to bad rubbish" post.

Gotta love their Mods.

The game was "Story-ish" & didn't translate well to many gamers (based on what I was reading across the interweb). Plot points? okay.

Grubbs had a better game (TSR's classic MSH) & maybe MWP ignored that legacy, unlike Kenson, who kept the DC Heroes mecha in his own game.

I'm glad Disney pulled the carpet from under MWP & it sends a clear message: our license trumps your fiddly game concept. Pay me or (bleep) off.

when I suggested Arc Dreams or Kenson or Fantasy Games Unlimited might do a better job with the license, a rpg.net mod banned me, profanity & all.

nice.

note: the Mod used the profanity.

(http://chunk.ie/media/2012/11/simpsons-nelson-ha-ha-93-p-672x480.jpg)

Just to be clear, while Disney technically owns Marvel, all the business decisions by Marvel are still handled by Marvel. Makes more sense to be annoyed with Quesada than the Mouse.

Quesada? It'll probably be a nameless suit in charge of merchandise. They'll have looked at the sales of Spiderman toilet rolls and RPGs and cut the one that sold the least.

I don't know the facts of what happened (does anyone?) but it *seems* that Marvel renegotiated the deal and wanted more money, hence MWP had no choice but to drop the title? Seems a funny carry on, given that Marvel turn out films on a yearly basis these days and everything from beach towels to lunchboxes, figures and dvds are all potential money makers, and that it's been 10 years since the last RPG. I'd have thought that any money stream coming in is good, and it's all going towards the fat pot that keeps suits happy. PDFs have been good sellers since the line came out (good, but not great I guess) but they should have decent profit built in, more than the printed books?

Maybe it's what happened with the printing (or lack of, as getting hold of a printed book outside of the US has not been easy) that forced Marvels hand. Maybe we'll never know.

I can see a generic supers game based on the Cortex system being made though, and whilst I'm not a great fan of the Marvel game I'll buy it and maybe give it some more play time. When I looked at character sheets when the game came out they seemed sparse (what??? No stats??? Heresy!) and lacking in detail. Then I look at other games, and recall how long it takes to make a character in Hero or M&M, or even DC Heroes if not using the character generator and Marvel Heroic doesn't seem so bad, if somewhat vague in places.

And just when I think that I've not given it a fair crack of the whip I wonder if I'm competent with the system enough to run it as GM, and no, I'm not. I hope that any follow up game reads better and is easier to understand.

Quote from: APN;650184Quesada? It'll probably be a nameless suit in charge of merchandise. They'll have looked at the sales of Spiderman toilet rolls and RPGs and cut the one that sold the least.

I don't know the facts of what happened (does anyone?) but it *seems* that Marvel renegotiated the deal and wanted more money, hence MWP had no choice but to drop the title? Seems a funny carry on, given that Marvel turn out films on a yearly basis these days and everything from beach towels to lunchboxes, figures and dvds are all potential money makers, and that it's been 10 years since the last RPG. I'd have thought that any money stream coming in is good, and it's all going towards the fat pot that keeps suits happy. PDFs have been good sellers since the line came out (good, but not great I guess) but they should have decent profit built in, more than the printed books?

Maybe it's what happened with the printing (or lack of, as getting hold of a printed book outside of the US has not been easy) that forced Marvels hand. Maybe we'll never know.

I can see a generic supers game based on the Cortex system being made though, and whilst I'm not a great fan of the Marvel game I'll buy it and maybe give it some more play time. When I looked at character sheets when the game came out they seemed sparse (what??? No stats??? Heresy!) and lacking in detail. Then I look at other games, and recall how long it takes to make a character in Hero or M&M, or even DC Heroes if not using the character generator and Marvel Heroic doesn't seem so bad, if somewhat vague in places.

And just when I think that I've not given it a fair crack of the whip I wonder if I'm competent with the system enough to run it as GM, and no, I'm not. I hope that any follow up game reads better and is easier to understand.

There is such a notion as "hurting the image of the IP".

Quote from: Rincewind1;650187There is such a notion as "hurting the image of the IP".

I think the 90s proved that was the least of Marvel's worries.

Quote from: TristramEvans;650191I think the 90s proved that was the least of Marvel's worries.

:p

Of course we should all cry ourselves to sleep to think that iron man branded can openers are considered a better investment than an RPG.

Quote from: Piestrio;650204:p

Of course we should all cry ourselves to sleep to think that iron man branded can openers are considered a better investment than an RPG.

I'll see your can openers and raise you Marvel Toilet Paper:

(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/275647932/SpiderMan_printed_toilet_paper.jpg)

Hey, everyone shits, and almost everyone opens cans.

Our preferred outlet for the imagination remains a niche.

Quote from: The Butcher;650214Hey, everyone shits, and almost everyone opens cans.

Our preferred outlet for the imagination remains a niche.

Yep. And frankly I'm glad of it. I'd really hate to see what an TTRPG industry aimed at the lowest common denominator looks like.

Quote from: TristramEvans;650216Yep. And frankly I'm glad of it. I'd really hate to see what an TTRPG industry aimed at the lowest common denominator looks like.

I'd honestly take it over the pathetic "hard-core" nerds that it's currently aimed at.

Quote from: TristramEvans;650216Yep. And frankly I'm glad of it. I'd really hate to see what an TTRPG industry aimed at the lowest common denominator looks like.

Like a food industry aimed at feeding everybody, I suppose.  

Quite a bit of truffle oil going on in some segments of the TTRPG world.  The foodies running the asylum.  

Hooray for mixed metaphors!

Quote from: TristramEvans;650210I'll see your can openers and raise you Marvel Toilet Paper:

(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/275647932/SpiderMan_printed_toilet_paper.jpg)

See, I would be willing to pay money to wipe my ass with some comic writer's faces...

Yes, I'm small, I'm petty, and John Byrne would look good in brown. :p

Quote from: Piestrio;650241I'd honestly take it over the pathetic "hard-core" nerds that it's currently aimed at.

I kinda agree.

Quote from: Piestrio;650241I'd honestly take it over the pathetic "hard-core" nerds that it's currently aimed at.

You and me both.  For a demographic that typically finds itself on the lower end of the social status ladder in "real life", and constantly complaining about the bullying, we sure are quick to resort to the same, if not worse, behavior within the demographic itself.

Dick measuring contests and dogpile the unpopular guy aplenty.

Quote from: Piestrio;650241I'd honestly take it over the pathetic "hard-core" nerds that it's currently aimed at.

Except that the nightmare would be that it would look like Marvel Monopoly, where you can RP as Spidey passing GO.

I don't understand the complaints about MHR lacking a character creation system.  Every Marvel RPG has started with the baseline assumption that players would be playing the Marvel characters as defined by the roster books, and the character creation systems have been half-assed afterthoughts at best.

Creating your own character in MHR was worked the same way it's worked in every other Marvel RPG: Use the minimal framework they give you, copy what you can from the published characters, and where that's inadequate just make something up.

Quote from: daniel_ream;650388I don't understand the complaints about MHR lacking a character creation system.  Every Marvel RPG has started with the baseline assumption that players would be playing the Marvel characters as defined by the roster books, and the character creation systems have been half-assed afterthoughts at best.

Creating your own character in MHR was worked the same way it's worked in every other Marvel RPG: Use the minimal framework they give you, copy what you can from the published characters, and where that's inadequate just make something up.

Ah, no. The first Marvel game did assume you'd play a marvel character,  and added a 'make your own character' bit in the end of the campaign book as an afterthought. When the second (Marvel Advanced) game came out the lesson was learnt and the players book is mostly full of stuff on making your own character.

It's been a while since I looked at Saga (would have to check) but I think that was an 'afterthought' kind of thing in the back.

Marvel Universe (Diceless) was a make your own character kind of game. Sure it had plenty of character writeups but they understood people want to make their own as much or more than play established characters and gave full rules and costs for doing so. The writing was muddled, mind, and powers were vague, badly costed or overpowered in some cases.

For me the Marvel Heroic game came under 'afterthought' with regards character creation. Sure, it's in there, in a 'get everyone to agree about everyones character' sort of way crammed into a few pages. Maybe people complained and that was why they put a random character generator in some of the event books.

I have no desire - at all - to run established characters. The only reason I'd use Marvel characters is as walk on parts (good guys) or bad guys tearing the place up. I much prefer full, structured rules to make your own character, as opposed to the vague, hand waving feel that Marvel Heroic had. Each to their own I guess.

Quote from: APN;650428Ah, no. The first Marvel game did assume you'd play a marvel character,  and added a 'make your own character' bit in the end of the campaign book as an afterthought. When the second (Marvel Advanced) game came out the lesson was learnt and the players book is mostly full of stuff on making your own character.

Well, the first marvel game offered two different character creation systems in the Appendix. I wouldn't say it was an afterthought as such.

Compare MSH basic with Advanced. There's a marked switch from 'a couple of pages in the back of the campaign book' to 'taking up the whole players book' in advanced. That's quite a big switch. When MSH came out there was no hint that there'd be an advanced version at some point, and I'm betting that fan feedback/requests for more rules on character creation (and fixing certain stuff) is the reason they did it (oh, and money as well).

If you take DC Heroes (which came out before Advanced Marvel if I recall - it's been... a while. 28 years? Arggh.) they crammed so much in the box it was hard to put back in after you'd unboxed it, but dedicated a large chunk of the game to making your own characters. That became our go to game (where previously BECMI, AD&D 1e and MSH had been joint 'go-to' games). Maybe TSR came out with the Advanced game after looking at what Mayfair had done with DC.

My point is that regardless of what license is attached to a game, by including a fully featured, balanced means of making characters (rolling or point buy for the most part) that everyone can look at and agree 'this is how to make characters' instead of argue or disagree about (as per Marvel Heroic) you are opening up the game to a larger potential market.

The more I participate in these kind of 'failure' threads for Marvel the more disappointed I am that the game is done, and that I never gave it a fair shot.

So I pick the basic book up, start to read it and then realize why. The basic concept, chuck some dice, pick two for total and one for effect, no problem. It's all the other fiddly bits, terms and mechanics that have my brain whirling. I can play this thing, but god knows if I'd ever be comfortable GMing it. I even get what it does - emulates comic books, rather than simulate characters (with defined limits and so on) and have no problem with that. It's just... the writing and explanation...

Crunchy? Maybe so-so, but Chewy? Definitely.

Given the popularity of the movies, it's odd someone hasn't made a Marvel Cinematic Universe RPG.

No ties to complicated comics continuity, chance to step up to (or be recruited by) Robert Downey, Jr. I'd consider that, if the game system wasn't crap.

(From a design standpoint, IMHO, trying to emulate comics as a medium makes for a compromised RPG experience. IMHO. I'd much prefer an RPG with superhero elements, however that is implemented.)

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;652308Given the popularity of the movies, it's odd someone hasn't made a Marvel Cinematic Universe RPG.

No ties to complicated comics continuity, chance to step up to (or be recruited by) Robert Downey, Jr. I'd consider that, if the game system wasn't crap.

(From a design standpoint, IMHO, trying to emulate comics as a medium makes for a compromised RPG experience. IMHO. I'd much prefer an RPG with superhero elements, however that is implemented.)

I concur - although the the license for the Cinematic Marvel was probably just as much $-wise as for the Comic Marvel.

Still, intro-style simple adventure rpgs aimed at the right demographic and illustrated entirely with movie stuff would've flown off the shelves at the big box stores.  They (Marvel 'they', not MWP 'they' necessarily) missed the small-money boat there by not having an "Avengers Adventure Game" at the Wal-Mart.  Hell, it could've had those Zerboz minis in it.

Quote from: APN;650594Compare MSH basic with Advanced. There's a marked switch from 'a couple of pages in the back of the campaign book' to 'taking up the whole players book' in advanced. That's quite a big switch. When MSH came out there was no hint that there'd be an advanced version at some point, and I'm betting that fan feedback/requests for more rules on character creation (and fixing certain stuff) is the reason they did it (oh, and money as well).

Well, one you're talking about a huge difference in page size between MSHB1e and MSHA, and character creation takes up about the same amount of space in MSHB2e as in 1st. The only reason I object to the "as an afterthought" wording is because the authors fought tooth & nail to include a chargen system (Marvel themselves didn't want one), two methods of chargen were included in 1st edition, the same two methods, working in the exact same manner, used in the next two editions of the game, and well, unolike the MSH chargen system, its complete, not a broken patch of rules or a few notes. Additionally, putting chargen in an appendix was the favoured choice for design layout within the newsletter gaming communities of that time. Superpowers and Talents were also put in the appendixes, neither of which I think anyone would ay were "tacked on as an afterthought".

Quote from: APN;650594Compare MSH basic with Advanced. There's a marked switch from 'a couple of pages in the back of the campaign book' to 'taking up the whole players book' in advanced. That's quite a big switch. When MSH came out there was no hint that there'd be an advanced version at some point, and I'm betting that fan feedback/requests for more rules on character creation (and fixing certain stuff) is the reason they did it (oh, and money as well).

If you take DC Heroes (which came out before Advanced Marvel if I recall - it's been... a while. 28 years? Arggh.) they crammed so much in the box it was hard to put back in after you'd unboxed it, but dedicated a large chunk of the game to making your own characters. That became our go to game (where previously BECMI, AD&D 1e and MSH had been joint 'go-to' games). Maybe TSR came out with the Advanced game after looking at what Mayfair had done with DC.

My point is that regardless of what license is attached to a game, by including a fully featured, balanced means of making characters (rolling or point buy for the most part) that everyone can look at and agree 'this is how to make characters' instead of argue or disagree about (as per Marvel Heroic) you are opening up the game to a larger potential market.

The more I participate in these kind of 'failure' threads for Marvel the more disappointed I am that the game is done, and that I never gave it a fair shot.

So I pick the basic book up, start to read it and then realize why. The basic concept, chuck some dice, pick two for total and one for effect, no problem. It's all the other fiddly bits, terms and mechanics that have my brain whirling. I can play this thing, but god knows if I'd ever be comfortable GMing it. I even get what it does - emulates comic books, rather than simulate characters (with defined limits and so on) and have no problem with that. It's just... the writing and explanation...

Crunchy? Maybe so-so, but Chewy? Definitely.

If you come out to cons, you may want to check out the #kristacon events.  #kristacon is a group of folks who play and run various oneshots.  Whatever else you may think of Marvel Heroic, it's terrific for convention one shots.  I played in the #kristacon Marvel Annilation event and had a blast. Very immersive roleplay that game generates, at least for me.

Quote from: APN;650594The more I participate in these kind of 'failure' threads for Marvel the more disappointed I am that the game is done, and that I never gave it a fair shot.

I don't regret my purchase at all.

I'm glad the game exists/existed, regardless of its failings.

It's a pity that the licensing means we can no longer get even the PDF (well, not legally anyway), and I don't see any indication that MWP is interested in scrubbing the IP and publishing a standalone superhero game (they're kind of tied up with the Firefly RPG right now).

I kind of doubt that MHR without the M would be worth publishing, though.  I've been playing superhero RPGs for over 25 years and in that time I can count the number of gamers, designers and otherwise, who actually understood the superhero comics genre on the fingers of one hand.  A game that requires everyone at the table to understand how to write and plot superhero character arcs is asking too much.

Quote from: daniel_ream;652659It's a pity that the licensing means we can no longer get even the PDF (well, not legally anyway), and I don't see any indication that MWP is interested in scrubbing the IP and publishing a standalone superhero game (they're kind of tied up with the Firefly RPG right now).

Wasn't there a  Kickstarter for this actually?

Quote from: Rincewind1;652701Wasn't there a  Kickstarter for this actually?

Are you thinking of the Hacker's Guide Kickstarter?  There's no superhero specific content in there, AFAICT.

Quote from: daniel_ream;652712Are you thinking of the Hacker's Guide Kickstarter?  There's no superhero specific content in there, AFAICT.

There was some stretch goal on one of MWP's Kickstarters that'd go towards making a licence-less system from MHR.

Quote from: Rincewind1;652713There was some stretch goal on one of MWP's Kickstarters that'd go towards making a licence-less system from MHR.

There's nothing in the Kickstarter goals for the Hacker's Guide that's even close to that, nor any indication on their forums that there will be.

Quote from: daniel_ream;652764There's nothing in the Kickstarter goals for the Hacker's Guide that's even close to that, nor any indication on their forums that there will be.

Ah. I've mistaken this

QuoteA fully-playable hack for Marvel Heroic Roleplaying called "Fantasy Heroic Roleplaying" that adapts the system to high action fantasy adventure in the style of the world's most popular roleplaying game.

For superheroes. Just remembered some rumour about a licence-less system for this.

Though truth be told, given how for me this game's mechanics were only held together by Marvel's glue...

Quote from: Rincewind1;652765Ah. I've mistaken this


For superheroes.

No, it's basically hacking MHR into D&D (thus proving Daniel's Maxim: No matter what genre or play style your RPG was originally designed for, the first thing anyone will do is try to play D&D with it. This goes double for superhero RPGs.)

Quote from: Imperator;649432Licensed settings are a terrible idea always always always.

Except with Unisystem's BUFFY/ANGEL and ARMY OF DARKNESS lines.

Other than THAT, though...

JG