TheRPGSite

MHR is a game where you play the role of an author of comics and take charge of a particular superhero in an ongoing story, called an Event in the game's parlance. You control the superhero, as do all the other players but the Watcher, which acts like the GM of traditional role playing games in some respects at least, running the environment, controlling Villains and allies, and so on.

There are plot points on the players' side, and doom dice on the Watcher's side, which fulfill more or less the same function to manipulate the story and outcomes of the characters' actions by providing complications and bouncing off the different story elements to make it more dynamic and dramatic.

The basic game takes the form of a thick soft cover comic book. It sells for 20$ US, a bit more in Canadian dollars, and represents great value for what it is, really, i.e. a complete game with a gorgeous layout and stunning comic illustrations (see pics below).

The default assumption is that you will play one of the well known heroes of the Marvel universe. There are many pregenerated characters provided with the game to reflect that. The complete list includes Armor, Beast, Black Panther, Black Widow, Captain America, Colossus, Cyclops, Daredevil, Emma Frost, Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Iron Fist, Iron Man, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Ms. Marvel, Sentry, Shadowcat, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Storm, the Thing, Wolverine. You can also create your own superhero, and a blank character sheet is provided as well.

OK. Time for the pics.

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So, how well does it do at the game table?

Quote from: Ladybird;569043So, how well does it do at the game table?

Personally, I was disappointed in it - mainly because all the dice-pool manipulating mechanics made combat really slow as opposed to feeling like quick slam-bang slugfests.  My first game we tried to do the premade adventure in the book ("Breakout"), and particularly with learning the system the pace felt glacial.  What made it slow was that there are a ton of categories of dice to pull from (4-6 from your character sheet, plus a bunch of resources that may have been generated for the scene).  Further, there are half-a-dozen or more ways to spend Plot Points.  

I had previously played a close relative of this system when a friend GMed a one-shot adventure using the Leverage RPG.   In that case, it seemed like the pacing was about right - the mechanic of developing out dice worked well for a slowly-developing con job.  The superheroic rules added more complications to the Leverage system, which made it slower when I felt like superheroic action should be faster.  

In June, I GMed it again for first-timers in a one-shot where I had made the Runaways (a recently-created superteam of teenage heroes).  That went better than my first run, but I still felt like the system was slow.  I'm still considering some simplifying options to speed up conflict.

It's a beautiful book. My experience as a playtester is that its very "Story" games based, and for my use, not in a good way. It has a problem with the gap between character and player being wide enough to sink a battleship.

It has asynchronous play. That is the action of the character are somewhat divorced from the players perceptions. In short the mechanics get in the way of playing the person. It becomes more like moving a monopoly piece around the board. Its still "your guy," but it is not essentially connecting your guy to you the player.

Its a beautiful game, and it can play.

I guess for me I want the player to talk in character, do things in character, and decide actions in character that fit the mechanics.

The game seems like it might generate great storyboards, but the action has no personal impact.

I went to one of the launch parties they had, and we played in the Breakout mini-event. The group I was in wasn't very powerful (I was Captain America, and Mr. Fantastic, Daredevil, Spiderman and Iron Fist were the other heroes), and we took out Graviton pretty easily (not as in actual beatdown; more like we intimidated him enough to surrender), which was cool, but seemed not in line with the comics.

I kind of grokked the die mechanics fairly easily, but still found it somewhat fiddly with all the die combos. I wouldn't mind playing it again, but it's not a game I'd want to run. I'm content with my purchase of the core rules, as it's only 20 bucks (and I got the pdf as well since I pre-ordered from MWP directly). I was considering getting the Annihilation event book as well, but they recently stated the price was going up on their books (due to various factors), so now I'm not so sure (given that the premium edition will now cost 50 bucks)

On the other hand, I'm kind of excited about Capes, Cowls & Villains Foul, from the company behind Cartoon Action Hour. Some early comments are that it is similar in some ways to MHR, but less fiddly (it uses a D12 as it's base mechanic, and not the all the other die types afaik)

This is not a fucking story game you dopey cunt.

That's one pretty book.

Wonder how it plays...

The release format has done a good job of turning me off on acquiring it.

Also, I am a huge Marvel fanboy, but all else being equal, I'd rather play a supers game in a homebrewed universe, with our own characters.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569184This is not a fucking story game you dopey cunt.

Look, GW, I used to sympathize with you and I even enjoyed reading your posts. You posted some vague but interesting ideas, e.g. about the space opera wuxia game you were writing.

Now you just show up on every other thread Benoist posts in, and start flinging shit like an angry chimp.

So, please, for the benefit of everyone else, back that up with some argumentation (you can even retain the shit flinging! e.g. "this is not a fucking story game because ________ you dopey cunt"). Or shut the fuck up, either one is good.

Quote from: The Butcher;569213Look, GW, I used to sympathize with you and I even enjoyed reading your posts. You posted some vague but interesting ideas, e.g. about the space opera wuxia game you were writing.

Now you just show up on every other thread Benoist posts in, and start flinging shit like an angry chimp.

So, please, for the benefit of everyone else, back that up with some argumentation (you can even retain the shit flinging! e.g. "this is not a fucking story game because ________ you dopey cunt"). Or shut the fuck up, either one is good.

Quite right, what I mean to say is:

this is not a fucking story game because it's a roleplaying game you dopey cunt.

Look. This has gotten to the point of absolute stupidity now. MHR is about as big an rpg release (other than D&D) as you're going to get these days, certainly in terms of the license. That it's even called Marvel Heroic Roleplaying should really be enough to credit it with even just the benoifit of the doubt. But instead we immediately go into the Other Games territory - even though we have had plenty of discussion on this game in the rpg proper forum. Noone shat their pants about it then, so why now?

Quite frankly if this is typical of the prioduct that gets the swine treatment and the subsequent vilification of people that really should know better then there's just no point and no hope. This has gone beyond the pale into the point of absolute stupidity. How on earth is this not an rpg? You play the role of a Marvel superhero (or one of your own). The events are not compulsory elements either, they are just how the game markets itself. They aren't, for instance, like the Apocalypse World playbooks.

If you want to jate on this game that's absolutely fine, there's plenty to criticise it for (and we have already done so on this forum). But this automatic recategorisation of the game according to a pointless paranoid principle of division that about three people, on the entire planet, subscribe to, is detrimental to everything that makes gaming great.

And the only reason I deign to explain myself at this point, because I suspect, now, there's no point, is because I've been asked to by someone that isn't a giant muppet. This site really is losing the plot, big time.

The game is currently on my "awaiting a proper release" list as for reasons beyond there control the cortex guys havent been able to sort out the licencing so that they can release the game outside the United States and Canada legally so ive decided to wait for word of a UK/Euro licencing deal(possibly via the company who releases marvels graphic novel collections) before i pick a copy up.

I played and ran 8 or so sessions of this game.
I want to champion it, but it has a few problems.

When you get used to the game mecahnic, the rules and the proper pacing of the game, it's actually a really great game. You just have to get over the fact that you're not playing a superhero, you're playing a comic book artist writing the part of one superhero.

Where it all falls down really is in characters. You really need to pick one of the pregenerated characters. While it is easy to make your own character because you just slap them together out of guesses, not every player is a comic author. Players usually felt too dissasociated with their character. The game rewards high numbers, literally, and if a player's character does not have a d12s in their design, they will eventually feel stunted. The way its structured leads to a complete lack of immersion.

In the way that I felt FASERIP's character creation was inspiring and by the end of it you love your character...but the game mecahincs aren't that fun to play...MHR is the exact opposite.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: The Butcher;569213So, please, for the benefit of everyone else, back that up with some argumentation (you can even retain the shit flinging! e.g. "this is not a fucking story game because ________ you dopey cunt"). Or shut the fuck up, either one is good.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569234Quite right, what I mean to say is:

OK. Let's see your actual arguments.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569234this is not a fucking story game because it's a roleplaying game you dopey cunt.

That's the thesis. MHR is not a story game because it's a role playing game. It's not a proof in itself, it's a statement without proof or substance as of yet.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569234Look. This has gotten to the point of absolute stupidity now. MHR is about as big an rpg release (other than D&D) as you're going to get these days, certainly in terms of the license.

"It's a role playing game because it's a as big a release as you can hope and it's a big license." Huh?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569234That it's even called Marvel Heroic Roleplaying should really be enough to credit it with even just the benoifit of the doubt.

"It's calling itself a roleplaying game so obviously it is." Huh?

Also, the one who's not giving the benefit of the doubt here is you dude. To me.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569234[strike]But instead we immediately go into the Other Games territory - even though we have had plenty of discussion on this game in the rpg proper forum. Noone shat their pants about it then, so why now?

Quite frankly if this is typical of the prioduct that gets the swine treatment and the subsequent vilification of people that really should know better then there's just no point and no hope. This has gone beyond the pale into the point of absolute stupidity. How on earth is this not an rpg?[/strike]

All that part is just a rant. There's no actual argument beyond "you are poo-pooheads for putting games in this forum." W/e.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569234You play the role of a Marvel superhero (or one of your own). The events are not compulsory elements either, they are just how the game markets itself. They aren't, for instance, like the Apocalypse World playbooks.

Actually the game disagrees with you. Page OM02:

Quote from: IntroductionAs a player, it's your job to make decisions for your super hero, using your knowledge of his motivation and personality as a guide to how he uses his amazing powers and abilities. Players are like comic book writers and artists - they bring these super heroes to life, making big and small choices for them, and that's what you'll do at the game table.

(...) Everyone shares their ideas, describes what their heroes (or villains!) are doing, and reveals an ongoing story. You might even describe what you're imagining in terms of panels and pages in a comic book - establishing shots, splash pages, extreme close-ups, huge sound effects.

I am not making this up, the game itself tells you as much: MHR is a game where you play the role of an author of comics and take charge of a particular superhero in an ongoing story.

And as Panju points out just above, this game sounds like it can be great if you get over the fact that you're not playing a superhero, and are playing a comic book artist writing the part of one superhero instead. I find myself in agreement here. To me, that's a story telling game at the very least. Not a traditional role playing game.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569234[strike]If you want to jate on this game that's absolutely fine, there's plenty to criticise it for (and we have already done so on this forum). But this automatic recategorisation of the game according to a pointless paranoid principle of division that about three people, on the entire planet, subscribe to, is detrimental to everything that makes gaming great.

And the only reason I deign to explain myself at this point, because I suspect, now, there's no point, is because I've been asked to by someone that isn't a giant muppet. This site really is losing the plot, big time.[/strike]

No actual argument there.

So your post, in terms of actual arguments, boils down to "it's not a story game because it's a story game. It's a role playing game because it says so on the cover, it's a big license (like that's relevant somehow), and you are poo-poo heads because you're putting this thread in forum I object to."

And that, and you make a shortcut in saying that you just play a super hero in this game that is actually, factually wrong, since you are actually playing a comic book author and building a story/narrative as such, which the game actually points out to you, and I've substantiated here by quoting the game itself.

To me, MHR isn't necessarily a story game per se (in the uber-strict Forge sense of the term), but it definitely uses narrative mechanics in a major way, at the core of its design, definitely posits you are playing at building a story, not exploring a live world from an immersive standpoint, and that to me makes it not a role playing game. I think, from what I've read so far, that it can be cool to play though. I'll come back to that later.

Quote from: Benoist;569275OK. Let's see your actual arguments.

The onus isn't mine. You're the one that has decided, in spite of reason, common sense, and the authors, this isn't an rpg. Ergo the responsibility is yours to prove that it is not. Since pundit cannot provide accurate aggreed upon (or indeed any) descriptors as to what constitutes a storygame (which even then would be only his, noone else in or out of the industry) you are doomed to failure. Quite what you hope to gain by declaring this, by order of benoist (as if that counts for anything), not an rpg escapes me.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

QuoteI am not making this up, the game itself tells you as much: MHR is a game where you play the role of an author of comics and take charge of a particular superhero in an ongoing story.

Yes dear, keep taking the pills.

HKAT is an rpg where you play an actor in a martial arts film.
Dream Park is an rpg where you play someone experiencing a virtual reality.
Amber is an rpg where you play some kind of god like entity.
In Nomine is an rpg where you play an angel or a demon.
DnD is an rpg where you can play a wizard.

Your point?

But wait, let's back up shall we...

QuoteI am not making this up, the game itself tells you as much: MHR is a game where you play the role of an author of comics and take charge of a particular superhero in an ongoing story.

In your own words, true believer (though actually you don't play a writer or artist, it's a simile, look the word up).

Excelsior.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569279

QuoteI am not making this up, the game itself tells you as much: MHR is a game where you play the role of an author of comics and take charge of a particular superhero in an ongoing story.

(...)

Excelsior.

Alright. That's your actual argument there, based on selected highlighting. As soon as you assume some role, any role in a game, it's a role playing game. As such, any and all wargames are role playing games, since you assume the role of a general leading troops and giving orders in battle.

D&D wasn't the first modern role playing game. Little Wars was.

Warhammer Fantasy Battle is an RPG, by that definition, as well.

Any definition that posits those kinds of things is next to meaningless to me.

Quote from: IntroductionAs a player, it's your job to make decisions for your super hero, using your knowledge of his motivation and personality as a guide to how he uses his amazing powers and abilities.

This is pretty much the essence of roleplaying, right here. All you need to do is change "super hero" and "amazing powers" as suitable for your game.

Quote from: Ladybird;569297This is pretty much the essence of roleplaying, right here. All you need to do is change "super hero" and "amazing powers" as suitable for your game.

Not to me. In a role playing game, I make decisions AS my super hero, not FOR him, and I don't "use my knowledge of his motivations", *I* have motivations AS my character and role play his personality to then use MY amazing powers and abilities as though I was myself the character in a live situation.

In a storytelling game, or a story game, I take decisions for my character as an author participating in the construction of a narrative, or story. Different player stances, to me.

MHR definitely belongs to the latter category, AFAIC.

Now both can be fun, I've been enjoying what I'm reading in MHR so far, though as jhkim and others were mentioning, I gather that the dice pool can be, quite literally, a handful when playing the game, and I'm not too sure yet on how to build the dice pools (that is, selecting elements on the character data that fits the action or doesn't, and what to do when nothing seems to fit), but so far I think I could possibly run and/or play this storytelling game and have some fun in the process.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569279In your own words, true believer (though actually you don't play a writer or artist, it's a simile, look the word up).

Excelsior.

The game uses the imagery of you being the writer to explain how you can play, say, Captain America and not have to slavishly adhere to the established personality of the character, that being that changes always occur when writers change. But you definitley play Captain America, not Ed Brubaker :)

I love this game. I enjoy it to pieces, my group loves it and we are anxiously awaiting Civil War. And we do use original characters as well as Marvel characters.

Allen

Quote from: Benoist;569323Now both can be fun, I've been enjoying what I'm reading in MHR so far, though as jhkim and others were mentioning, I gather that the dice pool can be, quite literally, a handful when playing the game, and I'm not too sure yet on how to build the dice pools (that is, selecting elements on the character data that fits the action or doesn't, and what to do when nothing seems to fit), but so far I think I could possibly run and/or play this storytelling game and have some fun in the process.

MHR definitley has storytelling elements but I do consider it an RPG. As for building the dice pool, you get one die from each part of the sheet; one for Affilation, one for Distinctions, one from each Power Set, one from Specialties. You can also add a Scene distinction rather than one of your Distinctions (or both, as long as one is a d4), your opponents Complication die if they have one, one die equal to their current Stress, a die for an Asset if you or someone else has created one. I have my players explain as they add dice why that die is being used. You can add an extra die from say your power sets by spending a Plot Point.

I run the unofficial fan page for the game on Facebook, by the way. Also, Cam Banks answers questions of the Margaret Weis forums, if you need any help.

Allen

Quote from: Benoist;569294Alright. That's your actual argument there, based on selected highlighting. As soon as you assume some role, any role in a game, it's a role playing game. As such, any and all wargames are role playing games, since you assume the role of a general leading troops and giving orders in battle.

D&D wasn't the first modern role playing game. Little Wars was.

Warhammer Fantasy Battle is an RPG, by that definition, as well.

Any definition that posits those kinds of things is next to meaningless to me.

you don't assume a role playing warhammer fantasy battles.

I didn't claim DnD was the first of anything.

Learn to read properly and not assume what you think I said.

Quote from: Benoist;569323Not to me. In a role playing game, I make decisions AS my super hero, not FOR him, and I don't "use my knowledge of his motivations", *I* have motivations AS my character and role play his personality to then use MY amazing powers and abilities as though I was myself the character in a live situation.

In a storytelling game, or a story game, I take decisions for my character as an author participating in the construction of a narrative, or story. Different player stances, to me.

MHR definitely belongs to the latter category, AFAIC.

Now both can be fun, I've been enjoying what I'm reading in MHR so far, though as jhkim and others were mentioning, I gather that the dice pool can be, quite literally, a handful when playing the game, and I'm not too sure yet on how to build the dice pools (that is, selecting elements on the character data that fits the action or doesn't, and what to do when nothing seems to fit), but so far I think I could possibly run and/or play this storytelling game and have some fun in the process.

So, because you don't know what a simile is, you are choosing to play not as your character in MHR but as the writer of that character. You have chosen to make decision for him, but not as him (a difference that really is very close to pedantry)? Who'se fault is that?

Which writer, btw? What writers are listed in the rulebook for you to use?

Quote from: Allensh;569327The game uses the imagery of you being the writer to explain how you can play, say, Captain America and not have to slavishly adhere to the established personality of the character, that being that changes always occur when writers change. But you definitley play Captain America, not Ed Brubaker :)

I love this game. I enjoy it to pieces, my group loves it and we are anxiously awaiting Civil War. And we do use original characters as well as Marvel characters.

Allen

Hi Allen!

It's nice to see you comment on the thread.

I obviously disagree as to the nature of the game - it's pretty explicit to me that you are not playing as Captain America, but as the co-author of a story that features Captain America as your narration proxy - but honestly, It's not my goal here to challenge your own perception of narrative storytelling games. Just to explain my own. I'm fine with your own perception of the game, as long as you accept that my own perception may be different based on my own experience and conception of RPGs.

Quote from: Allensh;569329MHR definitely has storytelling elements but I do consider it an RPG.

It seems to me the storytelling element is the primary purpose and the core of the game's play and system. The main currency of the game is plot points, which is used to create complications and the like. The whole logic of the game is sustained by a narrative outlook on game play: you are building a story. That is not a role playing game to me, because role playing games don't tell stories (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=18804). The comment linked here was relevant re: Dogs in the Vineyard, but hopefully it'll help you understand where I'm coming from on this, which, as I've stated multiple times (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23672), doesn't mean I can't enjoy the game for what it is.

Now all that said, providing context to what I'm saying, why, etc, let's not make this thread about this disagreement. This thread is about Marvel Heroic Roleplaying Basic Game, what are its features, how it plays, what's cool about it and what isn't, and as such, I more than welcome your input as I read through the rules and try to make sense of them for myself.

Quote from: Allensh;569329As for building the dice pool, you get one die from each part of the sheet; one for Affilation, one for Distinctions, one from each Power Set, one from Specialties. You can also add a Scene distinction rather than one of your Distinctions (or both, as long as one is a d4), your opponents Complication die if they have one, one die equal to their current Stress, a die for an Asset if you or someone else has created one. I have my players explain as they add dice why that die is being used. You can add an extra die from say your power sets by spending a Plot Point.

I read that in the rules book, yes. Let's take a practical example.

Let's say Captain America is trying to jurry-rig a car. What dice would you use for the dice pool? (I know the example sucks, but bear with me for a moment)

Quote from: Allensh;569329I run the unofficial fan page for the game on Facebook, by the way. Also, Cam Banks answers questions of the Margaret Weis forums, if you need any help.

Allen

Cam Banks is a nice guy. Do you have a link to the page you're running?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569340(...)

GW, stop derailing the thread with your crap attitude. Talk about the game, tell me what you like about it. What games you ran with it. If you've had any previous experience in actual play. I'd like to know about it. That could help me run the game later on.

I bought it. It's a beautiful book.

I read it. I think it's written in Dalmatian. Or perhaps Crimean Gothic.

I'd like to try playing it with someone who [strike]speaks Crimean Gothic[/strike] knows the rules really well.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;569348I bought it. It's a beautiful book.

I read it. I think it's written in Dalmatian. Or perhaps Crimean Gothic.

I'd like to try playing it with someone who [strike]speaks Crimean Gothic[/strike] knows the rules really well.

Yes, that's how I feel too. It's really hard to get the game. Maybe it's the organization of the first part of the game, the Operations Manual, and how it front loads a whole bunch of definitions and stuff right then and there, instead of going into how you create a character and whatnot. I find it very confusing, I got to admit. I'm not used to that at all.

Quote from: Benoist;569343GW, stop derailing the thread with your crap attitude. Talk about the game, tell me what you like about it. What games you ran with it. If you've had any previous experience in actual play. I'd like to know about it. That could help me run the game later on.

If you want feedback put it in the right fucking forum!

And if you don't like people shitting over your thread, don't do it to others !

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569359If you want feedback put it in the right fucking forum!

And if you don't like people shitting over your thread, don't do it to others !

It is in the right forum, and I hope your own posting habits improve in the very near future.

Now please talk about the game. Do you like it?

Quote from: Benoist;569342I read that in the rules book, yes. Let's take a practical example.

Let's say Captain America is trying to jurry-rig a car. What dice would you use for the dice pool? (I know the example sucks, but bear with me for a moment)

If he was doing that alone, he'd roll D6 for Solo and D8 for Vehicle Expert.  If the GM judged that super-strength was helpful (i.e. breaking open parts to get at the wires), then he'd get another D8 for Enhanced Strength.  I doubt that any of his Distinctions would apply ("Lead By Example", "Man Out of Time", and "Sentinel of Liberty").  

He'd be rolling against the Doom Pool, and if he won, he'd get his effect die for the car as a resource.  

The conflict mechanics definitely tend to be out-of-character, in my experience - so the players will tend to view things as "I can get a D8 for using that car" rather than (as the character) "I would get more leverage if I hit him with the car instead of my fist."  

However, I find that an out-of-character view is often true in RPG conflicts.  Players often view and talk about how many hit points a monster has left, what the odds are for a saving throw, and so forth.  Marvel Heroic is more abstract than most systems, but for me the majority of play was players declaring what they were doing or saying in-character.

Quote from: jhkim;569380If he was doing that alone, he'd roll D6 for Solo and D8 for Vehicle Expert.  If the GM judged that super-strength was helpful (i.e. breaking open parts to get at the wires), then he'd get another D8 for Enhanced Strength.  I doubt that any of his Distinctions would apply ("Lead By Example", "Man Out of Time", and "Sentinel of Liberty").  

He'd be rolling against the Doom Pool, and if he won, he'd get his effect die for the car as a resource.  

The conflict mechanics definitely tend to be out-of-character, in my experience - so the players will tend to view things as "I can get a D8 for using that car" rather than (as the character) "I would get more leverage if I hit him with the car instead of my fist."  

However, I find that an out-of-character view is often true in RPG conflicts.  Players often view and talk about how many hit points a monster has left, what the odds are for a saving throw, and so forth.  Marvel Heroic is more abstract than most systems, but for me the majority of play was players declaring what they were doing or saying in-character.

Man Out of Time could be very relevant, especially if you use it as a d4 instead of a d8, due to unfamiliarity with parts or tools.

Quote from: Benoist;569342Cam Banks is a nice guy. Do you have a link to the page you're running?

I'm not Allen, buuuuut: https://www.facebook.com/MarvelHeroicRoleplaying

Unless he has the .pdf or imported a copy ghost whistler probabyl hasnt played the game since it's not officially available for sale in the UK at this time(licencing issues with marvels graphic novels distributor i think).

It does sound like a fun game though so once the annihilation books are out(i prefer cosmic marvel to the regular stuff) i may grab the .pdf's and give it a read.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;569415I'm not Allen, buuuuut: https://www.facebook.com/MarvelHeroicRoleplaying

Ah excellent. Thanks Tommy. And thanks guys for the breakdown of the dice pool. It's useful.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;569487Unless he has the .pdf or imported a copy ghost whistler probabyl hasnt played the game since it's not officially available for sale in the UK at this time(licencing issues with marvels graphic novels distributor i think).

It does sound like a fun game though so once the annihilation books are out(i prefer cosmic marvel to the regular stuff) i may grab the .pdf's and give it a read.

It was for sale in the UK about a month after it came out in the states.

I bought it months ago from the book depository in the UK, and it was up for a short time on Amazon. I paid 9 quid, delivered, which was a bargain.

Now it seems the only place you can get it is from America, so they've made a bit of a mess of things with regards 'getting it out there'.

I suspect it will come back on sale at some point, once they've banged the price up on all the books. I guess someone at Disney took a look, asked 'what are we making on this?' and sprayed coffee all over the desk before throwing stuff about and calling for a secretary to get someone on the phone.

It's not written that well. Starts off ok but by page 30 or so you're head scratching. One of those games where watching others play, and joining in, is the best way to learn. I was disappointed, but plenty of others seem to love the game.

According to an email i recieved from the Book depository a couple of months  ago they used the usual supply routes they use for Manga books to get limited supplies after demand proved high and alliance didnt seem to get stock(this is also why no rpg stockist got supplies), but the distributors they use got asked not to supply them with more stock once marvel/disney found out(or more likely marvel/disney threatened to stop giving them graphic novels for import) hense why it's now unavailable outside the US/Canada except by getting a buddy to buy it then send it over for you or via pdf.  
My guess would be marvel want it distributed by their Uk graphic collections partner Panini Publishing but either they arent interested at the moment(since there no chance of it being sold in the same places as the collected editions like WHSmith) or marvel has'nt actually asked them to yet(probably dont see a point based on sales projections or something) either way as you mentioned there is currently no way to get it over here besides the 2 i mentioned above.

I have run and played MHR some and I like it. Its probably my favourite Supers RPG as it actually creates the vibe I get reading comics, but that may be damning with faint praise as I don't like Supers RPGs a whole lot :) Overall, its a little too heavy for me to be entirely comfortable with, but only by a slim margin.

As for all this RPG v storygame stupidity, given no one agrees the point of distinction the activity is meaningless. What I can say is that as a player in MHR, I play like I would in most RPGs I have played in with a little more direct control over the story than usual. As a Watcher, I play like a GM in most RPGs I have run. I have certainly played RPGs with a much larger disconnect between player and PC and focus on story building than MHR.

If this had been released in the UK when it first came out (it certainly wasn't on any of Esdevium's release sheets nor was it on the shelves, more importantly) I would have picked it up. That moment has passed and given that it lacks clarity (as is obvious from the sheer weight of confusion the rules have received across the interspace) and has no proper chargen system I don't think it's for me. The idea of publishing supplemental material via events is not one I'm adversely opposed to, but it doesn't sit right with me. It's still an rpg though and most of these issues were covered in the thread it received months ago in the rpg forum.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569691If this had been released in the UK when it first came out (it certainly wasn't on any of Esdevium's release sheets nor was it on the shelves, more importantly) I would have picked it up. That moment has passed and given that it lacks clarity (as is obvious from the sheer weight of confusion the rules have received across the interspace) and has no proper chargen system I don't think it's for me. The idea of publishing supplemental material via events is not one I'm adversely opposed to, but it doesn't sit right with me.

Yeah. It does some things, but they're not things I am interested in. My curiosity has been sated by the reports I've read.

On the other hand, the "events" idea would be great for bigger comic book fans. "You've read it... now play it, with MHR:Blahpocalypse edition!". It's not dissimilar to the way Heroclix handles the properties. It's almost a pity that the game isn't produced in-house by Marvel, who could probably get it out faster (Having closer access to the source materials for each event line).

The disconnect between character actions in-fiction and dice mechanics out of the fiction is a killer for me. It's what I didn't like about The Pool or about Dogs in the Vineyard.

This is in the wrong forum by the way, GW's right about that. If this isn't an rpg I'm fucked if I know what is.

Quote from: D-503;569699The disconnect between character actions in-fiction and dice mechanics out of the fiction is a killer for me. It's what I didn't like about The Pool or about Dogs in the Vineyard.

This is in the wrong forum by the way, GW's right about that. If this isn't an rpg I'm fucked if I know what is.

Does the game use character sheets?

Quote from: Declan MacManus;569828Does the game use character sheets?

Yes.

Quote from: Skywalker;569841Yes.

Then it's a roleplaying game.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;569828Does the game use character sheets?

Quote from: Skywalker;569841Yes.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;569949Then it's a roleplaying game.

Milton Bradley's HeroQuest has character sheets. It's thus a role playing game, by this yard stick.

Quote from: Benoist;569963Milton Bradley's HeroQuest has character sheets. It's thus a role playing game, by this yard stick.

It also has a GM.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;569964It also has a GM.

Correct.

Quote from: Benoist;569963Milton Bradley's HeroQuest has character sheets. It's thus a role playing game, by this yard stick.

It's descendent, Warhammer Quest, featured a book called the "roleplaying book". Which had a chapter on GM-ran games and providing RPG-esque challenges, including a hacked-together resolution system. And it had quite extensive tables for events that could occur in towns, villages and cities.

Sometimes it's an RPG... and sometimes it isn't.

Quote from: Benoist;569963Milton Bradley's HeroQuest has character sheets. It's thus a role playing game, by this yard stick.

is that a problem? DnD endorses miniatures and maps to put them on. Deadlands uses playing cards, does that make it Pokergaming?

Before this goes around in the usual predictable and dull circles that show the uselessness of such distinctions, does anyone actually care? I know Ben keeps this little torch burning brightly, but I would prefer to see people talk about Marvel Heroic.

Quote from: Skywalker;569985Before this goes around in the usual predictable and dull circles that show the uselessness of such distinctions, does anyone actually care? I know Ben keeps this little torch burning brightly, but I would prefer to see people talk about Marvel Heroic.

Well they need to get it released in Europe. I can't understand why they can't.

I also think omitting an explicit character creation rules was a big mistake. A major part of the fun of games like DC Heroes (oh how I miss thee, that boxed set was stuffed full of content) and Marvel was creating superheroes using the same parameters in that milieu. Are there any plans to remedy this? Is it a restriction of the license?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;570029Well they need to get it released in Europe. I can't understand why they can't.

Probably licensing issues... which is vaguely understandable, but shit.

also, you filthy euro peasant, how dare you want to actually experience the nice things americans and canadians get rather than just looking on in awe

QuoteI also think omitting an explicit character creation rules was a big mistake. A major part of the fun of games like DC Heroes (oh how I miss thee, that boxed set was stuffed full of content) and Marvel was creating superheroes using the same parameters in that milieu. Are there any plans to remedy this? Is it a restriction of the license?

Zelda (http://www.margaretweis.com/images/stories/bonus_content/mhr_randomdatafiles.pdf)!

I think Cam has mentioned somewhere why they aren't in the book, perhaps in the thread about it on this very forum, but you can go find that yourself.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;570029I also think omitting an explicit character creation rules was a big mistake. A major part of the fun of games like DC Heroes (oh how I miss thee, that boxed set was stuffed full of content) and Marvel was creating superheroes using the same parameters in that milieu. Are there any plans to remedy this? Is it a restriction of the license?

They added rules for character creation, and every Premium Edition Event Book (which includes the core rules in it) has those rules. They started that with the Civil War event book. You can also download it from their site.

It's not in the basic book, and likely never will (as adding it will likely force them to raise the price, and they want to keep it at 20 bucks)

Quote from: Benoist;569963Milton Bradley's HeroQuest has character sheets. It's thus a role playing game, by this yard stick.

Yup.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;570029Well they need to get it released in Europe. I can't understand why they can't.

I also think omitting an explicit character creation rules was a big mistake. A major part of the fun of games like DC Heroes (oh how I miss thee, that boxed set was stuffed full of content) and Marvel was creating superheroes using the same parameters in that milieu. Are there any plans to remedy this? Is it a restriction of the license?

It's less that they cannot make explicid character creation rules and more that they will not, because it would break the flavour of the game. How it works, it does not ultimatly matter how great or lousy your character is - they have their areas of interest and go with them. Thor, Iron Man, and J. Jonah Jameson could all be in a party together and J. Jonah Jameson would get on just as well. (He just wouldn't *feel* like he is.) So, character creation is "here's the rules, do whatever you want with them". Later they put out a short patch-up of random suggestions, but they still didn't constitute a character creation structure.

I think "do whatever you like making a character" is a noble idea...but it creates problems. Some people just choose all d12s (the highest dice for a trait) and look smug. Some people feel like a jerk if they choose anything over d8s. People optimise, and the system breaks down very quickly from that.

This is an RPG, but...it's not a superhero RPG, it's a comic book RPG. It emulates comic books really, really well - you just can't be a dick and have every character be as powerful as Superman.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Panjumanju;570055I think "do whatever you like making a character" is a noble idea...but it creates problems. Some people just choose all d12s (the highest dice for a trait) and look smug. Some people feel like a jerk if they choose anything over d8s. People optimise, and the system breaks down very quickly from that.

I think that's a thing best handled at the group level, though. This isn't a tournament game that needs points-balanced characters; you should be discussing things with the group as you go.

Quote from: Panjumanju;570055It's less that they cannot make explicid character creation rules and more that they will not, because it would break the flavour of the game. How it works, it does not ultimatly matter how great or lousy your character is - they have their areas of interest and go with them. Thor, Iron Man, and J. Jonah Jameson could all be in a party together and J. Jonah Jameson would get on just as well.

Unfortunately, they didn't include any characters like J. Jonah Jameson in the character list.  

I made character sheets for the early Runaways for my convention game, and they were noticeably different than the sample characters who were all loaded with powers and specialties.  Being relatively ordinary teens who only just discovered their powers, I gave them at most one or two specialties.  

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/marvel/

Have you tried having a PC like Jameson in the mix?  I've only run the sample PCs together and the Runaways together.  I'd be curious how they would mix (like an X-men + Runaways team-up, say).

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;570029Well they need to get it released in Europe. I can't understand why they can't.

Disney doesn't allow licensees to sell from one jurisdiction to another.

Quote from: Skywalker;569985Before this goes around in the usual predictable and dull circles that show the uselessness of such distinctions, does anyone actually care? I know Ben keeps this little torch burning brightly, but I would prefer to see people talk about Marvel Heroic.

I really wanna give it a shot. And since my old gaming group is apparently getting back together, I may be able to.

It still seems like it could never be my primary supers game, but it could be fun in its own right. The Civil War book was really well done in addressing the camp of "What if I don't WANT to play the same stories I've read!".

Quote from: jhkim;570104Unfortunately, they didn't include any characters like J. Jonah Jameson in the character list.  

I made character sheets for the early Runaways for my convention game, and they were noticeably different than the sample characters who were all loaded with powers and specialties.  Being relatively ordinary teens who only just discovered their powers, I gave them at most one or two specialties.  

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/marvel/

Have you tried having a PC like Jameson in the mix?  I've only run the sample PCs together and the Runaways together.  I'd be curious how they would mix (like an X-men + Runaways team-up, say).

Civil War Page 39. Favors Team, Solo, Buddy in that order, with Menace Expert and Business Expert. (Playing as The Press is an option in the Civil War book.)

Quote from: Skywalker;570132Disney doesn't allow licensees to sell from one jurisdiction to another.

Well that's unfortunate...and stupid.

Quote from: jhkim;570104Have you tried having a PC like Jameson in the mix?  I've only run the sample PCs together and the Runaways together.  I'd be curious how they would mix (like an X-men + Runaways team-up, say).

Yes, we had a character who was an out-of-time roman centurion with no superpowers, just a few weapons and skills. He got a job at the local museum doing tours.

And I have to say, he was a much more interesting character, because he was forced into finding creative idea and interesting applications, unlike other characters who used god-like force-fields or god-like shape-changing or god-like extra dimensional shadow control to solve everything.

The point is, characters of vastly different power levels co-exist well.

The downside is you don't really feel your character is that special, when there's no measurable difference between the Thing's strength and Spider-man's strength and how you fit into the universe.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;570264Well that's unfortunate...and stupid.

And unexpected. Its the kind of thing that often applies to toys. I am sure MWP was a little shocked when Disney wanted to apply it to their RPG.

MHRP was a dissapointment for me.



I am a HUGE comic book geek.
I watch everything superhero related. movie, animated movie, etc...

Picked up MHRP, and expected to love it based on the initial impressions I had.

I even had a GM handy that was familiar with the system used as its base.

In play I discovered it was not for me.



It's "Battle of the Dice Pools"

I felt like my Dice pool was playing the adventure more than my character was.

I don't enjoy fiddling and futzing with the dice to the extreme that MHRP takes it.


I was very sad. MHRP lured me in and then dashed my hopes and dreams.

There's a thread on RPG.net on people's experiences with MHR after 6 months. http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?643141-MHR-6-months-out-how-s-Marvel-treating-you

Quote from: Skywalker;575878There's a thread on RPG.net on people's experiences with MHR after 6 months. http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?643141-MHR-6-months-out-how-s-Marvel-treating-you

It's good that people are enjoying it; I just don't know if I can stomach it long enough to enjoy it.

I don't really care about allocating assets, applying negative dice, whatever. Futzing with a dicepool is not what I enjoy about rpgs.


Instead of all that futzing I would rather do freeform roleplay, or use Nobilis for supers.


But I will conceed that many seem to like the system.

Quote from: Bill;576038But I will conceed that many seem to like the system.

Completely anecdotally, after a year running the following RPGs for my local high school group, I asked them which one they wanted to play again for our final session of the year:

- Star Wars WEG 1e
- Dragon Age
- Marvel Heroic
- nWoD
- Dragon Warriors
- D&D4e
- AD&D1e

They chose "Marvel Heroic".

Quote from: Skywalker;583109Completely anecdotally, after a year running the following RPGs for my local high school group, I asked them which one they wanted to play again for our final session of the year:

- Star Wars WEG 1e
- Dragon Age
- Marvel Heroic
- nWoD
- Dragon Warriors
- D&D4e
- AD&D1e

They chose "Marvel Heroic".

System theory/speculation aside, do you think it could be because it's the only game out of that list which uses current and successful pop-culture media?

Quote from: Peregrin;583607System theory/speculation aside, do you think it could be because it's the only game out of that list which uses current and successful pop-culture media?

I think Star Wars and Dragon Age could probably qualify on that level too.

In any case, though it may be a part of the appeal, I don't think that it is the dominant reason as they are not Marvel fans. I had a short conversation with them and the standout feature for them seems to be the way the system encouraged them to think outside their characters and allow them to make fun for themselves and the other players direct. They referred specifically to a scene where the whole table co-ordinated to create the kind of dramatic antics that you are perhaps more likely to see onscreen or in a comic than in the other RPGs we have played.

FWIW here was my thoughts at the time: http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=522291&postcount=228.

I'm playing in a play by post game and it seems the group have already figured that Area Effect is 'broken'. I don't have the knowledge to explain why it's broken (my first game, still learning) but maybe someone else on here has run into the problem and can better explain it than I can.

Other than that, it feels kind of vague. I'm running Luke Cage, and rather than knowing that Cage hits stuff, looks mean and has invulnerable skin, I'm rolling a bunch of dice from different stuff to get the job done. It could be as likely that he uses his die from being a Buddy to another hero rather than his main asset, namely his strength. It takes some getting your head round, but I'm trying my best not to dislike it and give it a fair crack.

I'd have a hell of a time convincing my play by post group to switch to this though...

Quote from: APN;583633I'm playing in a play by post game and it seems the group have already figured that Area Effect is 'broken'. I don't have the knowledge to explain why it's broken (my first game, still learning) but maybe someone else on here has run into the problem and can better explain it than I can.

The SFX are all supposed to be balanced, but some are certainly better than others. Area of Effect is on the top tier of them. You add another d6 for every additional target - this can be great for clearing a room of very minor enemies, but greatly increases the odds of contributing to the Doom Pool with 1's. To say that it's "broken" is short-sighed - as in, they haven't seen it sharply increase the Doom Pool yet, but it is still one of the three or four more advantageous SFX in the game.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: APN;583633I'm playing in a play by post game and it seems the group have already figured that Area Effect is 'broken'. I don't have the knowledge to explain why it's broken (my first game, still learning) but maybe someone else on here has run into the problem and can better explain it than I can.

As described above, Area Effect is good for taking out weak groups but its also very risky as it boosts the Doom Pool i.e. collateral damage.

Remember getting more dice isn't necessarily a good thing if those dice are d4s and d6s.

Quote from: APN;583633Other than that, it feels kind of vague. I'm running Luke Cage, and rather than knowing that Cage hits stuff, looks mean and has invulnerable skin, I'm rolling a bunch of dice from different stuff to get the job done. It could be as likely that he uses his die from being a Buddy to another hero rather than his main asset, namely his strength. It takes some getting your head round, but I'm trying my best not to dislike it and give it a fair crack.

I enjoyed playing Luke Cage. Most of his stats are physically focussed, but in the comics he is defined as much by his relationships with other people and what he believes in. I found that his stats can be applied in ways outside the box with a little creativity. I think its that element of MHR which the players picked up on the most, and also why I think it does a good job of capturing the comic book feel.

Quote from: Skywalker;583109Completely anecdotally, after a year running the following RPGs for my local high school group, I asked them which one they wanted to play again for our final session of the year:

- Star Wars WEG 1e
- Dragon Age
- Marvel Heroic
- nWoD
- Dragon Warriors
- D&D4e
- AD&D1e

They chose "Marvel Heroic".

It could be they just wanted to play superheroes.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583880It could be they just wanted to play superheroes.

Possibly but I doubt it was the most influential factor. They all said when we started that they aren't big superhero fans and one even commented that she was surprised how much she enjoyed herself given that superheroes weren't her thing. The prevalent comment was how much they liked the way the felt able to shape the story and scenes directly and the resultant interplay between them.

Quote from: Skywalker;583608I think Star Wars and Dragon Age could probably qualify on that level too.

In any case, though it may be a part of the appeal, I don't think that it is the dominant reason as they are not Marvel fans. I had a short conversation with them and the standout feature for them seems to be the way the system encouraged them to think outside their characters and allow them to make fun for themselves and the other players direct. They referred specifically to a scene where the whole table co-ordinated to create the kind of dramatic antics that you are perhaps more likely to see onscreen or in a comic than in the other RPGs we have played.

FWIW here was my thoughts at the time: http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=522291&postcount=228.

Cool.  The system really interests me, but I haven't had a chance to read/play it yet.

The only reason I said what I did is that Star Wars, while still relatively popular, is, IMO, on its way out for younger gens (barring a successful reboot/new movies), and DA always seemed like a love-letter to older fantasy CRPG fans.  Meanwhile, supers movies are in right now and comics are getting more attention than they have in a long time, especially among younger kids.

I definitely think it was a part of the appeal, just not the main one. I note that I ran this before Avengers was released.

Dragon Age was their second most favourite, with the nWoD one off being next (it was their first horror game :D).

Things have developed and in addition to the Marvel Heroic final session, it looks like we will be starting a weekly campaign too starting in December. This means my wife gets to play too. :)

So in preparation I have been reading through Civil War, with 50 State Initiative and Young Avengers & Runaways supplements lined up behind it, and I have to say that I am impressed so far. It really matches the kind of sandboxy toolkit adventure campaign that many seem to want but are pretty rare these days. Bags of flexibility, playability and support.

I will try and post more detail on the book here later, as I don't think I have seen anything but the Basic Game discussed here so far.

Is it fun rolling a dice pool versus another dice pool, as opposed to a fixed target number?

I don't think either is inherently more fun than the other.

For me the system borders on genius. But i'm unconvinced, especially as it's geared to existing marvel characters and requires a lot of building of dice pools on the fly.

How effective is the initiative system?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;584720For me the system borders on genius. But i'm unconvinced, especially as it's geared to existing marvel characters and requires a lot of building of dice pools on the fly.

How effective is the initiative system?

The initiative system seems good. Its a simple change up from the usual method and the ability to "pass on" initiative definitely played a part in that scene building interplay that they seemed to enjoy a lot.

As for the dice pool system, this is probably the core of the game's appeal but also its most divisive mechanic. Some players just constantly struggle to take into account multiple factors into every roll. Some players have no issue whatsoever and for these players the activity itself heightens the experience for them. Things that I like about it is that:

1. It constantly encourages playing your PC in character (carrot) but without the need for a mechanic to enforce it (stick), which I tend to dislike.
2. It removes all need for modifiers from external factors -coordination with other people, areas of related knowledge, terrain etc. Everything involved in a scene is right there on the player's character sheet allowing them to make informed choices.

Surely some modifiers from external factors can't be accounted for on character sheet, such as environmental issues that arise within the combat itself.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;584985Surely some modifiers from external factors can't be accounted for on character sheet, such as environmental issues that arise within the combat itself.

Sure, sort of. Scene distinctions, the Doom Pool and an opponent's stress aren't on the character sheet. But the overall the level of player awareness of their options and what effects those options is very high in MHR. Those off the sheet factors are few and transparenr, so there is no need to refer to either the rulebook or GM's call. This makes gameplay tactical but fast.

In a weird way it seems a bit counter intuitive to allow players to chuck everuything and the kitchen sink into their dice pools. That instead they might be rewarded by being more efficient: risking a smaller pool somehow.

Does that make any sense?

Quote from: Silverlion;569051I guess for me I want the player to talk in character, do things in character, and decide actions in character that fit the mechanics.

You can play it like that, except that you then make the mechanics fit with the character's actions. Some things do require looking a bit sideways and being meta (like distinctions) but it is very possible to play it more or less like any other RPG once you learn the rules. I personally found it less storygamey and less meta than FATE (which I loathe). Once the dice actually hit the table, everything is pretty smooth. It's getting to the point where you roll them that could stand some smoothing out.

The big problem is the learning curve for the game is steep and it's really a jargony ruleset with tons of special terms for things that probably don't need them. Learning to play the game from the book is like trying to learn a specialized language, and it's worse if you actually use the jargon at the table. .

Oh and milestones suck balls, they're total storygamey elements which leave me entirely cold. Fortunately, you can just remove them without it changing anything important.

Overall, I think it has potential, but the metagame elements still irk me even as GM. As a player, I think I'd have more issue with it, but I think with a little work, it's salvageable.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;586837In a weird way it seems a bit counter intuitive to allow players to chuck everuything and the kitchen sink into their dice pools. That instead they might be rewarded by being more efficient: risking a smaller pool somehow.

Does that make any sense?

Players can't chuck everything into their die pool. If they can't reasonably justify it to the GM, you can't use it. And the more die you roll, the better chance you have of adding some 1's to the doom pool.

What rules does the game offer for GM's in how to use doom pools in a balanced way and not just fuck the player over by throwing everything at him in one roll.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;586837In a weird way it seems a bit counter intuitive to allow players to chuck everuything and the kitchen sink into their dice pools. That instead they might be rewarded by being more efficient: risking a smaller pool somehow.

Does that make any sense?

Definitely. I struggled with it too to start, but the players didn't and when running for a young group they are what counts. Being more experienced I can adapt.

The idea has become easier for me over time and I have seen it used for good effect in terms of comic book emulation where situations often incorporate multiple elements. It removes a single long scale of power with a shorter but wider one, if that makes sense. This helpgeist reflect the fungible nature of superhero power, allowing superheros that should be out of their league still participate or compete but in different ways. All in all, good stuff :)

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;587188What rules does the game offer for GM's in how to use doom pools in a balanced way and not just fuck the player over by throwing everything at him in one roll.

Not sure I understand the question.  The Doom Pool is balanced through play as it increases when the PCs gain resources i.e. PP. If you want to spend it all on one roll, you can but then it diminishes, so there is a serious cost for the Watcher. As a player, sucking up the DP should feel like contributing as you are helping to diffuse the overall tension and challenge of a scene, even in failure.

Quote from: Skywalker;587309Not sure I understand the question.  The Doom Pool is balanced through play as it increases when the PCs gain resources i.e. PP. If you want to spend it all on one roll, you can but then it diminishes, so there is a serious cost for the Watcher. As a player, sucking up the DP should feel like contributing as you are helping to diffuse the overall tension and challenge of a scene, even in failure.

I'm not sure I understand either. My comprehension of this game is a bit schizoid; sometimes i get it and it sounds awesome, other times...not.

I would like to play it, because I think that would make sense of a lot of things. But again the lack of dedicated chargen is a bummer. Either that or I want to play Galactus, or Silver Surfer (seriously), or Dr Strange. Neither of them are statted, unlike in the MHSAGA game I still own, despite somehow disposing of the fucking cards!

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;588606I would like to play it, because I think that would make sense of a lot of things. But again the lack of dedicated chargen is a bummer. Either that or I want to play Galactus, or Silver Surfer (seriously), or Dr Strange. Neither of them are statted, unlike in the MHSAGA game I still own, despite somehow disposing of the fucking cards!

Silver Surfer will appear in Annihiliation next month and Dr Strange is in Civil War.

The hardest part to grok about MHR, and maybe the part that leaves you in doubt, is the system quantifies the effect of actions and not so much the actions themselves. This is probably one of the largest paradigm shifts made in RPGs of late and it can be difficult to get comfortable with (Skill Challenges in 4e, leaving aside their mechanical issues and vitriol for that game, have the same conceptual shift).

Though the usual suspects chalk it up to "storygaming" I don't think its an accurate description. It is certainly a move from the mechanics modelling actions. The most positive result of this shift is IME that conflicts become more exciting and freeform as they are decided more by the decisions of players rather than just the GM. The second positive result IMO in terms of superheroes is that it makes the RPG so much easier to use and create stuff for. Superheroes are about unlimited possibilities, but the effect of those possibilities is usually a lot more limited. As such, the approach marries with the subject matter well.

I was also interested in a lot of this "how storygamey is it" stuff about MHR. I managed to get the author and Jeff Grubb (the writer on the original Marvel FASERIP game) to talk about it:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2012/06/marvel-two-in-one-cranium-crushin.html

Quote from: Zak S;588707I was also interested in a lot of this "how storygamey is it" stuff about MHR. I managed to get the author and Jeff Grubb (the writer on the original Marvel FASERIP game) to talk about it:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2012/06/marvel-two-in-one-cranium-crushin.html

Awesome interview.

Thanks!

Quote from: Skywalker;588678Silver Surfer will appear in Annihiliation next month and Dr Strange is in Civil War.

The hardest part to grok about MHR, and maybe the part that leaves you in doubt, is the system quantifies the effect of actions and not so much the actions themselves. This is probably one of the largest paradigm shifts made in RPGs of late and it can be difficult to get comfortable with (Skill Challenges in 4e, leaving aside their mechanical issues and vitriol for that game, have the same conceptual shift).

Obviously I don't think it's a 'story game', not remotely.

But I'm unfamiliar with 4e/skill challenges and I'm not sure what you mean by quantifying the effect of actions (as opposed to the actions). You've lost me somewhat here.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;588718But I'm unfamiliar with 4e/skill challenges and I'm not sure what you mean by quantifying the effect of actions (as opposed to the actions). You've lost me somewhat here.

In MHR, the system determines the effect of an action, but doesn't really sweat how that effect is created. So, binding up someone with webslinging is the same as grappling someone or freezing someone with ice.

The system doesn't go: "what are you doing? OK this is what you roll". It goes "what are you trying to acheive? OK this is what you roll". The focus on effect can be seen as shifting the view from out of the mind of the PC, which is why it can generate a story game tag for some. However, conventional RPGs have been doing this for years, as the primary purpose is to allow a greater range of action to have less mechanical effects, to simplify the system element.

From a supers POV, I like this as I don't feel the need to try and model everything a superhero can do. I just need to work out how much of an effect the PC has and then apply a few broad actions as to what the PC does to acheive it.

Edit: Also, this approach tends to make conflicts less reliant on GM discretion as the system is quantifying effects to a greater extent. Again, this is something that conventional RPGs too (doing damage) but MHR does so on a more macro level. As a player and a GM, I find I enjoy this in some games (normally where combat is a common feature in drama of the game) as it makes the conflict more competitive, makes choices made seem more important, and allows for things to be less predictable.

So how does the advise Uatu to manage the doom pool - ie what advice to play the game fairly and not just piss off the players.

I've ordered it. Not quite sure how Amazon has sourced it, but it's in the UK somehow.

Maybe the authors have been a bit sly with the not-chargen in this game: anyone with any game design nous or hobby experience understands how people lurve to kitbash stuff.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;588912Maybe the authors have been a bit sly with the not-chargen in this game: anyone with any game design nous or hobby experience understands how people lurve to kitbash stuff.

There is both random character generation and guidelines for freeform character generation. There is no points buy character generation though.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;588904So how does the advise Uatu to manage the doom pool - ie what advice to play the game fairly and not just piss off the players.

I am not sure what you mean here TBH. The Watcher can play the Doom Pool as hard as they want. The natural balance and flow of resources means that GM dickery would be a bad idea.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;588904So how does the advise Uatu to manage the doom pool - ie what advice to play the game fairly and not just piss off the players.

The thing that impressed me about the way the doom pool and the dice all work in my two playtests of the game was that the game is self-balancing.

My first game, I threw a solo Emma Frost up against two Super Villains with a small group of thugs. In this game, I had a hard time getting and keeping Doom Dice, but Emma almost always had PlotPoints to spare.

My second game was Emma Frost teamed up with Spider-Man and her old flame Tony Stark vs two heavy hitter villains and a half dozen or so second-stringers. This time, I seemed to more dice and larger sized dice, although I had to spend them quickly to keep up with the heroes, and while players always seemed to have a few plotpoints, they were a bit of a tighter resource than in the solo game I played.

You see, the solo player got to do all the dice rolling in all the reactions, so despite just being the only character out there, she could hold her own against the bad guys, because she got alot more resources than I got few from her.

Whereas in the three player team, those plot points were more distributed across the players, giving them fewer options and a bit tighter of resource economy, but as I had three people rolling for actions, in addition to reactions, I had more chances to get an Opportunity and buy or step-up doom dice. But since I was rolling so many more reactions, I was also spending more dice to keep up. I eventually was able to end the scene (and the playtest) with 2d12, but by that time, it was obvious the heroes had won and it was a foregone conclusion anyways.

Quote from: Skywalker;589008I am not sure what you mean here TBH. The Watcher can play the Doom Pool as hard as they want. The natural balance and flow of resources means that GM dickery would be a bad idea.

Well, the GM has to consider playing adversarially. Not just playing the baddies, but considering actual strategies with the doom pool.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;589059Well, the GM has to consider playing adversarially. Not just playing the baddies, but considering actual strategies with the doom pool.

I don't think so. In my experience it all flowed pretty organically. There is a bit of a resource management aspect, but its highly situational. If you just play naturally, it seems to work fine.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;589059Well, the GM has to consider playing adversarially. Not just playing the baddies, but considering actual strategies with the doom pool.

Sure. However, the process is simple, so I don't really see the need for strategic advice. Most GMs will pick it up after a session.

Ok, now I have the book!

This is a weird feeling. I've been back and forth as to whether to buy this for a few months now. It's also something that i've not seen on sale in any shop at all, and i'm not even sure I can get the Civil War book (i imagine, from what I know of it) Fear Itself would be fun.

I was a bit disappointed with 40k in this sense: i thought there' dbe a ton of fansites/material on the web and I only know of one place (and it's a bit haphazard and not particularly enamoured of the FFG product). So it might be nice to get into all the fan made plot files/datafiles/events whatever, even if MWP could have chosen a more generically popular even other than 'breakout'.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;589175Ok, now I have the book!

This is a weird feeling. I've been back and forth as to whether to buy this for a few months now. It's also something that i've not seen on sale in any shop at all, and i'm not even sure I can get the Civil War book (i imagine, from what I know of it) Fear Itself would be fun.

I was a bit disappointed with 40k in this sense: i thought there' dbe a ton of fansites/material on the web and I only know of one place (and it's a bit haphazard and not particularly enamoured of the FFG product). So it might be nice to get into all the fan made plot files/datafiles/events whatever, even if MWP could have chosen a more generically popular even other than 'breakout'.

Try http://exploring-infinity.com/2012/03/12/marvel-heroic-roleplaying-collected-miscellanies/

It has links to tons of resources.

This is interesting. For me, although i've been aware of 'these kinds' of rpg for a while now I've never owned onw, the most curious part is that they are a type of game where the rules are almost up to the players to create.
Of course it will be said games have always been DIY thanks to rule zero and the 'if you don't like x, get rid of it'. I've always felt that kind of presentation and approach, in more 'traditional' games (uh oh), basically sucked. I'm not against people houseruling (it's not like I can do anything about it anyway). Far from it. But it always felt a bit of a kludge and a bit of a cop out: stand by your ideas, or fix them, but don't waste my time giving me permission to do what I can do anyway.
But here we have games now where the players are endorsed mechanically to create things that actually add to the rules and the use thereof.

It's not all rosy: the game is clearly not intended for people who aren't au fait with the Marvel universe (unsurprisingly). There is zero discussion on any element of the setting outside of the event. There are no antagonists or rules to create any beyond the 'how to customise a datafile' section or the antagonists from the Event, which seems to be the format the followup books (more events) will take. It's not a bad selection, and of course it will always be defined by what it lacks given half a century of marvel continuity. But there are some strange choices. There are probably more characters than there are in the basic MSHAGA book, but the latter has more iconic characters: Dr Doom, MAgneto, Annihilus, Rhino, Electro, Dr Octopus, and so forth. I've yet to read the book so it may be that NPC's are treated differently and so I don't need to worry about provision of enemies, but superficially it's not intuitive. Also there's no discussion of the environment or the setting: no section on Manhattan, the Baxter Building, the Avengers Mansion, the Daily Bugle etc, for instance. Is that a big deal? YMMV. But I don't know how MWP plan to approach such things, if at all.

MHR is like most Star Wars RPGs in that sense in that most setting material can be sourced elsewhere so the rulebook does not give it much coverage. There is some setting material in Civil War covering the major locations and even providing stuff for Wakanda and Atlantis. But its much lighter than what you would get in many RPGs.

I personally like the fact that MHR is focussed on the immediately playable. Source material is presented in terms of how it's used in game rather than an encyclopaedic entry. I find it helps keep things fast and free, which is especially good for me with Supers, but I can see how some may not like it.

The same approach goes for the rules. There will almost be no need for further rules expansion. There is an initially higher hurdle to understand how the game operates, but once over that everything is simple.

FWIW if Marvel Heroic is your first game along these lines then expect your first session to be difficult. I suggest getting some like minded players and taking your time. I usually run a session and give its a couple of months to sink in as my brain acclimatises :)

I had a look at the Civil War book. The selection of datafiles is...ok. A fair few are in the core book (though obviously tweaked as per the story).

Now I suspect that, over the next year, they will switch their publishing model and move away from events and toward straight up data dossiers. I don't mind not having stats for the Fantasticar or the Baxter Building or whatever. But the lack of villains is an issue (afaict).

This debate is always going to happen with every licensed SHRPG given the sheer weight of material within the Marvelverse. But I think there are some core minimums that you ought to provide. The basic hero files are decent enough in terms of choice (I would have included Hulk, Dr Strange, perhaps Thor, Silver Surfer, Namor, Hawkeye, and one or two others). But there's no stats for Magneto, Dr Doom, The sinister Six, The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants...I think a few more top draw names would have been a very good idea. Yes you can make them up, but that's not really the point. So to that end I'd have done Secret Wars instead of Breakout, even if it is decades old :D

Civil War contains a lot of villains (Dr Doom is there) you mention and the rest will appear either in Annihilation or Age of Apocalypse.

The Event format seems to be entrenched for 2013, with three more undisclosed Events planned for next year on top of the two more we know about. I think it's one reason that Marvel is so supportive of this RPG too. It's a big selling point for them.

Quote from: Skywalker;589514Civil War contains a lot of villains (Dr Doom is there) you mention and the rest will appear either in Annihilation or Age of Apocalypse.

The Event format seems to be entrenched for 2013, with three more undisclosed Events planned for next year on top of the two more we know about. I think it's one reason that Marvel is so supportive of this RPG too. It's a big selling point for them.

To the point that I've had a friend complain that the game is the most ham handed "buy the trades" advertisement he's ever seen.

Apparently he was quite lost with a lot of the "Whys" of Civil War...something I couldn't factor in having already read the story.

I am sure the format made Marvel happy.

As said, I like the focus on adventures and the immediately playable. It's refreshing these days in my time strapped parenthood days. I am also using the RPG to guide my Marvel comic buying, given I find them an impenetrable mass these days. Working well so far for me, so, double win :)

Quote from: Skywalker;589522I am sure the format made Marvel happy.

As said, I like the focus on adventures and the immediately playable. It's refreshing these days in my time strapped parenthood days. I am also using the RPG to guide my Marvel comic buying, given I find them an impenetrable mass these days. Working well so far for me, so, double win :)

I hope that doesn't mean you've been buying Civil War, because just about everything they've done lately is way better than that...=P

Quote from: Skywalker;589514Civil War contains a lot of villains (Dr Doom is there) you mention and the rest will appear either in Annihilation or Age of Apocalypse.

The Event format seems to be entrenched for 2013, with three more undisclosed Events planned for next year on top of the two more we know about. I think it's one reason that Marvel is so supportive of this RPG too. It's a big selling point for them.

I don't necessarily think it's a bad idea, but of course it's subjective. If you're favourite characters/stories are not released, or won't be for ages, then you don't get access to the content you want. That people have, inevitably, already statted up their favourite iterations of their favourite characters is the most telling aspect. Now maybe without this event model, pimping marvel product, the game wouldn't exist. But the events will largely be current arcs.

i thought annhiliation was an ultimates story arc, with the ultimate galactus.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;589519To the point that I've had a friend complain that the game is the most ham handed "buy the trades" advertisement he's ever seen.

Apparently he was quite lost with a lot of the "Whys" of Civil War...something I couldn't factor in having already read the story.

How many people bvuying the civil war eventbook will be buying it to run it, not just for the datafiles/setting info.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;589524I hope that doesn't mean you've been buying Civil War, because just about everything they've done lately is way better than that...=P

I bought the single 7 issue graphic novel. It wasn't great as a comic but it is remarkable good for an RPG.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;589603i thought annhiliation was an ultimates story arc, with the ultimate galactus.

It's not. It's a part of the normal Marvelverse.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;589605How many people bvuying the civil war eventbook will be buying it to run it, not just for the datafiles/setting info.

An awful lot of the the Event books is just Datafiles and Setting Info. One thing I am enjoying about MHR is the much higher level of shared experience as the Event books are released.

Ok, i'm sure they'll do Ultimates at some point. I'm not that interested in the Ultimates much anyway. I like the iconic/classic versions.

I'm a bit confused by what they've done with Civil War. There seem to be many different versions of this. There's an Essentials version that's just the Civil War stuff plus datafiles (the drivethru preview, which is the only way I can see what's inside short of pirating a copy, has a contents page but that doesn't tell you what villains are included). Then there's a Young Avengers book with datafiles that aren't in the essential edition afaict and a book called 50 State Initiative. This is confusing. Oh, and there's a version due out with the main rules in (not a bad idea, if you can afford to repreint the rules everytime).

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;589621I'm a bit confused by what they've done with Civil War. There seem to be many different versions of this. There's an Essentials version that's just the Civil War stuff plus datafiles (the drivethru preview, which is the only way I can see what's inside short of pirating a copy, has a contents page but that doesn't tell you what villains are included). Then there's a Young Avengers book with datafiles that aren't in the essential edition afaict and a book called 50 State Initiative. This is confusing. Oh, and there's a version due out with the main rules in (not a bad idea, if you can afford to repreint the rules everytime).

The Young Avengers & 50 States Initiative books are supplements to Civil War. The 50 States Initiative is (obviously) about the teams put together after Iron Man's side won. I believe Young Avengers covers what the Young Avengers and Runaways were doing during the actual Civil War event (cause you know, other heroes had stuff going on during that time frame that tied into it, or was important enough to cover for gaming purposes)

Quote from: urbwar;589626The Young Avengers & 50 States Initiative books are supplements to Civil War. The 50 States Initiative is (obviously) about the teams put together after Iron Man's side won. I believe Young Avengers covers what the Young Avengers and Runaways were doing during the actual Civil War event (cause you know, other heroes had stuff going on during that time frame that tied into it, or was important enough to cover for gaming purposes)

I've never read Civil War.

Have to see what I want before I decide.

I'm not against the idea at all. But i was under the impression the Essential book had all the Civil War datafiles there will ever be for that (ie including Civil War supplements). Personally I can take or leave the Young Avengers.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;589621Ok, i'm sure they'll do Ultimates at some point. I'm not that interested in the Ultimates much anyway. I like the iconic/classic versions.

Cam has said that they have considered Ultimates for an Event, so yeah I think you are right.

I am also not a big Ultimates fan, though I like select storylines, like Ultimate Galactacus.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;589621I'm a bit confused by what they've done with Civil War.

Each Event will roughly follow the same format.

The hardcover Event Book  comes in Premium (340 pages) or Essentials (224 pages). The only difference is that Premium includes the Operation Manual (the rules) as well. In fact, CW Premium also including the random Datafiles freebie as well as it was so well received.

There are also three softcover supplements (130 pages). These cover new Datafiles, setting, mini-events, and rules. For Civil War, the three supplements cover some of the more tangential parallel storylines to the core story.

50 State covers three pro-registration teams (Thunderbolts, 50 State and Mercs). It has also a mini-event which can be played after the CW story.

Young Avengers and Runaways focusses on those teams and the New Warriors. You also get a mini-event of the Cube which was in that crossover series.

X-Men will cover the story in the CW X-Men comics.

Altogether they expand CW into a pretty huge story covering multiple angles.

Annihilation follows a similar structure though the three supplements will cover the stories after the main Annihiliation Event so it will be more of extending the campaign than broadening it.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;589605How many people bvuying the civil war eventbook will be buying it to run it, not just for the datafiles/setting info.

My very dissatisified friend was one.

Quote from: Skywalker;589612It's not. It's a part of the normal Marvelverse.

And it was awesome.

Quote from: Skywalker;589669Each Event will roughly follow the same format.

The hardcover Event Book  comes in Premium (340 pages) or Essentials (224 pages). The only difference is that Premium includes the Operation Manual (the rules) as well. In fact, CW Premium also including the random Datafiles freebie as well as it was so well received.

There are also three softcover supplements (130 pages). These cover new Datafiles, setting, mini-events, and rules. For Civil War, the three supplements cover some of the more tangential parallel storylines to the core story.

It sounds a lot like a good way of splitting things up if you want to run a game using the themes and styles of a particular event, but as your game progresses, you'd run the risk of going "off the rails" of your supplement. Still, I wonder how much this line was designed for players who aren't already Marvel fans, as opposed to players who are (And so could be assumed to already have the books it's based on).

Anyway, my interest in this game is done, thank you for clarifying the details.

Quote from: Ladybird;589672It sounds a lot like a good way of splitting things up if you want to run a game using the themes and styles of a particular event, but as your game progresses, you'd run the risk of going "off the rails" of your supplement.

Not sure what "rails" you are referring to. The vast majority of each supplement is pretty much Datafiles of PCs and NPCs that are usable in any MHR game.

How we intend to use the supplements is to run the core storyline, but allow the individual PCs to be able to explore the various parallel tangents as they arise, using troupe style play.

The approach to the supplements will be different in Annihiliation as the supplement extend the core storyline, at least as I understand it.

Yeah, for being based off of pre-existing storylines, the Events provided in the books are much, much looser than what you get from most pre-written adventures.

No rails here.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;589691Yeah, for being based off of pre-existing storylines, the Events provided in the books are much, much looser than what you get from most pre-written adventures.

No rails here.

Agree. They are pretty much toolboxes, with example scenes based on the comics.

Here are my Doctor Doom Distinctions:
"Die For the Triumph of Dr Doom!" (the single greatest quote in Marveldom)
Diplomatic Immunity
Overconfident
Solo d10 Team d8 Buddy d6.

I haven't read the rest of the rules yet.

The Defenders:
Hulk
"Leave Hulk Alone!"
Hulk SMASH!
Puny Banner
Team d6 Solo d10 Buddy d8

Namor
Crown Prince of Atlantis
Imperious Rex
Water's Cooling Embrace
Team d8 Buddy d6 Solo d10

Silver Surfer
Earthbound and Alone
By the Power Cosmic
To Save...His Home
Team d8 Buddy d6 Solo d10

Dr Strange
Master of the Mystic Arts
I Must Be the Best!
The Eye of Agamotto Sees All
Solo d6 Buddy d10 Team d8

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;589702Here are my Doctor Doom Distinctions:
"Die For the Triumph of Dr Doom!" (the single greatest quote in Marveldom)
Diplomatic Immunity
Overconfident
Solo d10 Team d8 Buddy d6.

Nice. Each one is a twist on how's he presented in CW and make sense to me.

I think I prefer "Ruler of Latveria" than "Diplomatic Immunity" as it's broader and covers more positive and negative possibilities.

Ruler of Latveria is a bit too passive for my liking. Diplomatic Immunity is clear and lets Doom do things he can't normally do. Ruler might be much the same, but YMMV.

Just for giggles:

Judge Dredd
Solo d10 Team d8 Buddy d6
I Am The Law!
Genetic Heritage of Justice
800 Million People, Each One A Potential Criminal

Judge Anderson
Solo d8 Team d6 Buddy d10
Anderson, Psi-Division
Highly Strung
Rides Without a Helmet

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;589812Ruler of Latveria is a bit too passive for my liking. Diplomatic Immunity is clear and lets Doom do things he can't normally do. Ruler might be much the same, but YMMV.

Cool. I just struggle to find the negative in Diplomatic Immunity unlike Ruler of Latveria, I guess.

Quote from: Skywalker;589852Cool. I just struggle to find the negative in diplomatic immunity more.

Yes I forget Distinctions aren't like aspects: the player has the choice to use the either die, the GM can't make him (or maybe they can, i havebn't read that far yet).
Though I imagine the Watcher wouldn't use it negatively, instead he'd use it anytime Reed Richards or the world's heroes tried to converge on the Latverian Embassy and take him down. Doom could whip out some legal bullshit and call in a bunch of cops if not Doombots and escape.

So far I'm very impressed with this game. It's simplicity is disarmingly deceptive. The powers and their limits are what make the power system, no need for two hundred pages of weights measures, approximations, stats, and whatnot.

I'm looking at my old Golden Heroes box and the NPC cards that came with the GM (ie the Script Supervisor, or SS!) screen. Good times. Some of those old characters were really cool (and it was implicitly set in the UK!). I can't help myself, here's Nightmare Man:

Solo d8 Team d6 Buddy d10
Terror of the Raven (he's accompanied by a magical entity in the form of a raven that feeds on the fear he inspires).
Racial Terrorist (he picks on minorities to inspire his fear).
Wizard of Light and Sound (he uses technology to work his 'magic').

Now, I ordered this from Amazon UK, who also stock the Civil War books.

None of these products are available through Esdevium (ie regular rpg channels). I have not seen this listed on any of their release sheets, nor have i ever seen it n stock at places like Leisure Games. At all.

So, has this product bypassed the regular rpg stockists becfause of Marvel comics? If so why don't places like Waterstones or WHSMiths or Forbidden Planet stock it?

Is that fair?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;589997Is that fair?

As Disney owns Marvel, they have licensing restrictions which have interfered with the regular distribution of MHR to gaming stores. They are working on fixing it.

FWIW the Civil War event book only hit print a month ago in the US and a week or so ago in the UK. The other Civil War books have not yet been printed.

Its all a bit weird. If Amazon can stock it (ie many retailers that use amazon) but my LGS would presumably have to order it from somewhere other than Esdevium. As far as I know mine isn't an import.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;590103Its all a bit weird. If Amazon can stock it (ie many retailers that use amazon) but my LGS would presumably have to order it from somewhere other than Esdevium. As far as I know mine isn't an import.

Not sure of the details. I think Disney restricts the flow of licensed products overseas through certain distributors, hence why Amazon has got it and your LGS doesn't.

Quote from: Skywalker;590107Not sure of the details. I think Disney restricts the flow of licensed products overseas through certain distributors, hence why Amazon has got it and your LGS doesn't.

That doesn't explain why major bricks and mortar bookshops don't list it either. Nor specialist (but not necessarily rpg) retailers - ie comic books shops like Forbidden Planet - can't get.

Is there a release date for Annihilation?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;590256Is there a release date for Annihilation?

Mid November for PDF. Mid January for print.

Mid January?!?

I contacted Esdevium, this game is still unlicensed in the UK, so places like Amazon are the only way to get it.

I guess Marvel just want me to shutup and keep my money! :D

Very odd. It's commonplace for the main bookshops (all 2 of them) to sell graphic novels, and a lot of them. In fact Waterstones sell FFG boardgames quit ea lot now. But this, nada.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;590526Mid January?!?

For print. Its a two month turn around from PDF to print for MWP and it sounds like Annihilation will hit PDF in a month or so.