Essentially the same question, regarding FFG's wonky card distribution.

What is the deal, in both cases, with copies of each card. I don't know the rules for each game and so I don't want to make the mistake of buying into something that doesn't give you a full playset. I made this mistake with Lord of the Rings - whihc is a solo game! You needed 3 copies of the core set to get enough cards but that costs and leaves you with a shit load of stuff you don't need because only some of the cards were printed once.

I wish FFG would get their shit together as this was supposed to be the point of the LCG model, but once bitten...

For Android: Netrunner you need three boxes of the core set if you want to have every playable card.  You're allowed 3 of any single card, and there's nine or so cards that only come 1 per box.  However, you can play competitively with 2 boxes and casually with 1 box; buying 3 boxes is a little extreme (although that's what I did).

Star Wars isn't out yet, but I've read the rules and the product descriptions and it looks like two boxes will be all it takes to max out.

Note that this only applies to the core boxes, the expansion packs give you a full allowance, you only need to buy one of those for both A:NR and SW.

Thanks.

On that basis I won't bother.

Don't like that model.

It was the same way for the Lord of the Rings LCG.

You can have up to 3 of any card in your deck, but there is only 1 copy of a few cards in the core set. I'd agree that you can play casually with 1 core set, but I felt 2 core sets was needed for a better all around experience.

Expansions have 3 of every player card so you only need one of each expansion, however you'll probably want every single expansion.

In the end it was too much of a purchase for a game that lost it's luster over time and so I traded my copies away. Based on that experience, I'm not purchasing any more living card games.

as i discovered to my chagrin when i brought lotr.

I sold it a couple of weeks later. It's a blatant and clumsy cash grab.

I thought the LCG model was a deliberate antidote to this nonsense in the post ccg era. Obviously not.

Consequently I won't buy anything using this model, but sadly FFG have really sunk in my estimation in recent times (and I'm still waiting to hear when Only War is actually out).

In all honesty the LCG model was not meant to transform the business but enable FFG to still publish content for the failing Call of Cthulhu CCG. LotR LCG sounds like a bad deal in retrospective but even initially the mechanics and theme was not to my liking so I passed it. Android: Netrunner is my first venture into LCGs and so far the (single) basic set has been awesome. I might be biased because the original Netrunner in CCG form is one of my favorite all time games and I would have bought a new CCG, LCG, deck building, single set, whatever Netrunner if it still had essentially the original mechanics in place.

I'm thinking about trying that OCTGN program (google it), it seems a pretty good online ccg platform.

I decided to buy Android. This means looking past FFG's mistakes. They are a company I will never understand: every five steps forward they take, they always take one back.
The gameplay seems very good and of course the production values are excellent.
But I think their mistake was creating 4 corporations (there are three runner decks). This means that the choices a player has for building a corp deck are cut to the bone and lean indeed. This is really unfortunate because there is potential for a veriety of strategies and, in time, these will surely be realised. But for now the choice really isn't there. According to the deckbuilding rules the player has to have a certain number of cards to score, but there aren't enough native to each deck and so he must rely on enutral cards that don't synergise. Certainly you can build a 'legal' deck, but it won't really capitalise on the factions strangths at all which is a real shame. The Weyland faction has an ability that scores off of 'transaction' cards, but only 4 cards have that keyword.
The makeup of each deck also includes a couple of cards that you get only 1 of (which i knew to be the case). Quite honestly, these might well have been saved for expansion packs. There is just no point including 1 copy of a card in a 45 card deck. It's just inefficient, but sadly the only way to get at least another copy is to pay for another core set entirely. That's it - that's the step backwards.
They would have been better sacrificing a fourth faction to give more for the extra options for the corp decks. Consequently the runner decks have more cards.
Given that each monthly expansion will feature about 3 cards per faction (7 factions in total) as per the LCG format it will be a long time (not including the preium expansions they do biaunnually or so) before those options are available. That's a real shame because the gameplay is very good; this is a ccg that, despite being jargon heavy, has a lot of in-game decision making and even bluffing. Most ccg's rely on deckbuilding and card advantage to determine who wins (ie it's usually predetermined), but this has more happening during play.
This is probably a beter game than Star Wars, which seems more traditional and has a peculiar deckbuilding mechanism.

On a not-unrelated note, I found myself passing an RPG shop on the way to work (Well, I had a half-day and went shopping in the morning). Picked up a copy of Fiasco, and the Deathwing expansion for Space Hulk: Death Angel. Haven't played it yet - haven't even played with the Tyranid enemy pack - but I can see it integrating better, as the Deathwing are an entirely new set of Marines with their own turn sequence, rather than having been combined into the base set like the SM Pack 1.

Also, FFG deck sleeves. Fuck are they hard to put cards into. And now my cards don't fit into the blister-pack-thing they came in.

If FFG would rerelease Death Angel with a bigger box, I'd buy it again just for that.

I've picked up Netrunner and the expansion.

I'd liek to give the SW game a go, but I don't think the deckbuilding is really going to work. CCG's need multiples, though i applaud them for trying something new.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;610981I'd liek to give the SW game a go, but I don't think the deckbuilding is really going to work. CCG's need multiples, though i applaud them for trying something new.

My group spent all last Saturday playing just Netrunner and Star Wars, and they're both fantastic.

In Star Wars, you can have up to two of each set (usually, there are a couple exceptions), and some sets have duplicates. For example, my jedi deck had 4 Twilek Loyalists, and the dark side Corporate Exploitation pod contains 5 Espo Troopers.  So don't worry about card multiples, you can build them in there if you want to (although it often requires that second box, which you've objected to upthread).

Quote from: Brasidas;611241My group spent all last Saturday playing just Netrunner and Star Wars, and they're both fantastic.

In Star Wars, you can have up to two of each set (usually, there are a couple exceptions), and some sets have duplicates. For example, my jedi deck had 4 Twilek Loyalists, and the dark side Corporate Exploitation pod contains 5 Espo Troopers.  So don't worry about card multiples, you can build them in there if you want to (although it often requires that second box, which you've objected to upthread).

The SW game is actually a pretty good game. The rules aren't terribly groundbreaking, but it plays well.

Unfortunately the core set is terrible. The deckbuilding works against the function of the core set and you will need two copes if you actually want to play properly (a sith deck without two copies of Force Lightning is a waste of time).
Scum and Smugglers should not have been included. They are dead cards in this core set. You can't properly use them since you only get one objective set (and one copy of each) for each.
The neutral objectives are utterly bizarre. Why even bother? Why not just give 10 objectives per faction? Or make Scum/Smugglers neutral in terms of cost. The ewok objective is dead weight also since it's useless on its own. With a full ewok deck it might be fun, but for now...wtf?
Why are there two copies of one particular LS and one particular DS objective when each is limited to one per deck? The only purpose of this is to build a 'training wheels deck', yet they could have just designed 2 different objectives and gone with that.

While the gameplay is solid, because of the nature of the deckbuilding (and why you need 2x core set) the game is too random. If you get a good draw and your opponent doesn't, you've won. First turn Vader vs first turn Rebel Mook? DS wins the game. Can you get Vader first turn even with a mulligan? Unlikely as 95% of the cards you get are not duplicated in the core set because of the nature of the objective sets. THis is why you need 2x core set (you can have no more than 2x each objective that isn't specifically limited).

Consequently the game feels too random. Each card works for a specific situation (force icons aside) and so if you dont' have what you need in hand, forget it. Thus deckbuilding is going to make or break this game: it becomes very difficult to build around a specific strategy which is the norm for ccg's at least.

I'm taking your quote to mean you're looking for a bit of back-and-forth, if you were just wanting to rant instead, my apologies.  

I think your best bet with one set is just to use the starter decks.  You can put all four into play with one box (it's the reason why FF doubled up on pods 18 and 36), and goof around with your friends for an afternoon.  I spent my first night just playing with the starters, and I re-build them when I teach a new player; they're fun.

I love the neutral objectives for the dark side (haven't used them much with the LS yet).  Recon Mission gives you 3 fate cards and increases your hand size, Coporate Exploitation for the 5x 0-cost troopers, and Looking for Droids for the Viper Probe Droid, one of my favorite DS cards.  Hell, I've even had modest success (50/50) building a combined Sith/Navy/Scum deck, and the neutrals were key.  Playing against ewoks is a total pain.  If you're a rebel player, consider using them, even with the limit 1 restricion, it's a great pod.

I agree with your complaint about how hard it is if someone gets Vader/Palpatine out on the first turn.  That's currently what we're all trying to come to grips with locally.  I'm not sure it's Vader/Palpatine so much as the Heart of the Empire giving you the resources to get everything out on the first turn.  My last DS game I played 2 Hearts and a Recon Mission for my objectives, and my draw was Vader, Lightsaber, a mook, 2x Force choke, twist of fate, and something else.  Absolutely brutal.

With two core sets, you get a pretty good chance of having either Vader or Palpatine out first turn too.  12% chance to draw each one, and you've got four...

If you're looking to play seriously, you need the second box.  I hope this isn't too unpleasant a pill to swallow, I think you were warned upthread, and it's still quite a bit cheaper than Magic...

QuoteI think your best bet with one set is just to use the starter decks.  You can put all four into play with one box (it's the reason why FF doubled up on pods 18 and 36), and goof around with your friends for an afternoon.  I spent my first night just playing with the starters, and I re-build them when I teach a new player; they're fun.

But you can't play the game 2v2. So you simply won't need those objectives doubled. It makes no sense.

QuoteI love the neutral objectives for the dark side (haven't used them much with the LS yet).  Recon Mission gives you 3 fate cards and increases your hand size, Coporate Exploitation for the 5x 0-cost troopers, and Looking for Droids for the Viper Probe Droid, one of my favorite DS cards.  Hell, I've even had modest success (50/50) building a combined Sith/Navy/Scum deck, and the neutrals were key.  Playing against ewoks is a total pain.  If you're a rebel player, consider using them, even with the limit 1 restricion, it's a great pod.

It may be a great pod, but not on its own. One set of cards that works only with itself, for now, is a daft thing to include in a core set.

The DS neutral objectives are much better. But that's not really the point.

QuoteI agree with your complaint about how hard it is if someone gets Vader/Palpatine out on the first turn.  

This is why ccg's have rules for multiples; so you can get the cards you need to counter these with a reasonable chance of success. At least with one single core set you are essentially open to being screwed by randomness as almost everything in the deck is one of a kind. It also kills strategy since the only deckbuilding strategy depends on the objectives. This will make or break the game.

I don't dislike the idea they've used, but I'm not convinced it's been executed well. It means that each 60 card expansion can only ever have 1 objective set for each faction, so it's going to be a long slog to get a decent mix of cards. That's assuming the objectives they design don't suck or, like the ewok one, aren't dependent on have more of their kind.

QuoteIf you're looking to play seriously, you need the second box.  I hope this isn't too unpleasant a pill to swallow, I think you were warned upthread, and it's still quite a bit cheaper than Magic

It's the way ffg do things. Their choice of objectives and their bizarre notion of having players create strange 'learner' decks that are of no use to anyone beyond that limited transient experience. Why not learn with the full 10 objectives that deckbuilding allows? Why not have the scum/smuggler stuff be represented by neutral cards? Why even include one objective for each at all and not wait for a bigger expansion? There isn't enough synergy there.

In many ways i wish they'd had the courage not to fall back on moneygrabbing with requiring players commit to 2 core sets and instead develop the deckbuilding mechanism and the design of objective sets to work with 1x each objective only. Why 2? Why not 3 for instance?

Or have 3 core sets of 2 affiliations each: smugglers v spies, rebels vs imperials and jedi vs sith? Surely people would have broght them all.