TheRPGSite

From another thread:

Quote from: Silverlion;388101Would you start a thread to tell me about Cold City? and/or Hot war?

Can't help you with Cold City, but Hot War is awesome.

I should really take the time to write a full-fledged review, since Malcolm Craig was kind enough to gift me with a PDF copy. But alas, real life impinges on my gaming time, and I the opportunity to sit down and actually write it escapes me.

Hot War is a "sequel" to Cold City, as Spinachcat summarized thusly:

Quote from: Spinachcat;388094Malcolm's Cold City is one badass espionage horror RPG.  I've played it three times and its rocked.  You fight Nazi occult leftovers and weird experiments in the back streets of post-war Berlin with a team that you may or may not be able to fully trust.  Truly great stuff and certainly one of the gems of the small press world.

In Hot War, the Cuban Missile Crisis explodes into actual warfare, and Great Britain is not only hit by nuclear weapons, but also invaded by Soviet troops. The privations of a nuclear apocalypse are made all the more horrific by the supernatural horrors loosed on Earth by both sides, courtesy of the secret supernatural research programmes (bolstered by the same Nazi occult lore they fought over in the previous game).

It is now 1963, and the last stronghold of humanity in Great Britain is overpopulated, disease-ridden, filthy, starving London. Draconian martial law, rationing of essential supplies and other horrors of war are made all the more horrific by nightmarish, Lovecraftian-in-all-but-name supernatural threats stalking the streets.

Players belong to a task force which investigates and contains supernatural incidents, which may include anything from London policemen, to American airmen stranded in the UK (and completely oblivious about what's happening back home), to civilians like scientists, politicians and journalists.

In addition to the usual investigative horror, there's supposed to be a lot of friction between PCs of disparate backgrounds, with the ready-made characters and adventure being a handy demonstration. This sort of friction is an old standby of some of our most memorable CoC game sessions; we enjoy the contrast between cosmic horror and petty human squabbles (will we rise above them, and buy mankind a bit more time? Or will we succumb to our pettiness, and the rest of the world be damned?), and while I am not particularly well-read in Cthulhiana, it's great to see a playstyle I so closely associate with my own gaming group get this front-and-center treatment.

I am also not particularly well-read in derivative Cthulhiana, but Charles Stross' "A Colder War" springed to mind when I started reading (and later was explicitly cited by the author as an influence).

I haven't looked closely at the system, but it seems to be a very simple conflict-resolution deal, with freeform traits (like "everything has a rational explanation" or "the Commies have eyes everywhere"). I'll use it as the setting for a CoC one-shot game, because I love CoC, I know it inside-out, and it's already got a huge, ready-made list of nasties I can throw at them.

The book, though, is solid gold. There are several pages of handouts, posters and other "flavor" art which I intend to print and, well, hand out to PCs. Some, like the one which educates civilians on capturing, preparing and consuming sewer rats as "supplementary protein" I found particularly... effective, in driving home the setting's sense of horror and despair.

I highly recommend this game. Maybe it's not one that will spawn 10-year-long epic campaigns, but I can see myself getting a few sessions and maybe even a mini-campaign out of this. Converting the setting to Call of Cthulhu or any other system you may prefer is a breeze.

And with the PDF at $10, I feel it's pretty good value for the money, especially considering the visual presentation.

Quote from: The Butcher;388113From another thread:
Can't help you with Cold City, but Hot War is awesome.

I should really take the time to write a full-fledged review, since Malcolm Sheppard was kind enough to gift me with a PDF copy.

Not much to add here, but that would be Malcolm Craig.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;388117Not much to add here, but that would be Malcolm Craig.

Disclosing any knowledge of other game systems undermines your authority as the 4e evangelist.  The implication that you've even lightly perused other materials questions your dedication to DnD, and, by implication, WoTC and the Pope.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;388117Not much to add here, but that would be Malcolm Craig.

Stupid me. I stand corrected -- OP edited.

Cold City is about hunting monsters in the ruins of early Cold War Berlin. The really fun thing about the setting is that the monsters can be literal or figurative - sure, there's Nazi arcano-tech and all kinds of horrible aberrations left over, but there's also the template of real history to work with. That really appeals to me and I enjoyed running Cold City a lot. The game's central theme is trust, which has mechanical weight in the game. You're playing a mixed team representing the four nations that have partitioned Germany, and each wants to get its greasy hands on whatever the Nazis left behind - in some cases to destroy it forever, in others to keep it from the new enemy, in others to use it for the national good. That the stuff you are digging around for has horror/sci-fi trappings doesn't really distance it from reality unless you want it to.

It's a good game that is stuffed with exciting color. If you're interested in the time period and place, it is a rabbit hole you can really fall into. In my campaign I tried to hammer home the fundamental conflicts of the setting - if the only guy who can get you access to a hidden weird-tech bunker beneath a U-bahn station in the Russian zone is also an unrepentant former einsatzgruppe war criminal, do you still do business with him? Do you follow orders or answer to a higher calling, when you hold a deadly abomination in your hands? Can you really trust the Amis? Can you really trust anybody? Really cool stuff.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;388123Disclosing any knowledge of other game systems undermines your authority as the 4e evangelist.  The implication that you've even lightly perused other materials questions your dedication to DnD, and, by implication, WoTC and the Pope.

I'm more informed than my adversaries usually give me get credit for. Sadly, the reverse is not true.

Do we know if he plans to do a modern era version? Perhaps? Would it be hard to adapt either one to modern day?

I don't think Cold City would lend itself too well to a contemporary hack. It's very focused on a particular time and place. Hot War would be a better bet for that, but it'd still be sort of awkward.

What's the system like in these games?

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;388161What's the system like in these games?

Indeed? What works, how does it work?

I can only speak to Cold City, which I've run in campaign and convention one-shot mode.

The trust mechanic is inspired by The Mountain Witch, and operates in a similar way - the more trust you have in another PC, the more mechanically advantageous your bond, and the greater damage they can cause in betrayal. It's pretty sweet and does a good job of instilling the paranoia and odd bedfellows that mark 1949 Berlin.

Characters have a pair of agendas - a national agenda and a personal agenda, both of which are supposed to focus on anticipated play. "I must recover and preserve arcane artifacts" might be a national agenda, and "I must punish the men who killed my brother" might be a personal agenda. These serve as both flags highlighting what players are interested in and situation generators in their own right.

Finally you have Traits, which are freeform and player-authored. You end up with pools of dice based on Traits, trust and so on. The system is not the game's strongest point - It's functional but not really remarkable outside of the trust bit, which is very fun in play. The setting really carries the game.

Here are some pregens for a convention game (http://www.meekmok.com/sassy/games/cold_city/cold_city_convention_characters.pdf). And the last page is a system cheat sheet that should give you a good idea how the game works.

Quote from: Silverlion;388156Do we know if he plans to do a modern era version? Perhaps? Would it be hard to adapt either one to modern day?

I had been noodling around with the idea of a follow-on to Hot War set 50 years after the war, 2013. Britain-as-authoritarian-state (V for Vendetta being a fairly obvious touchstone here), post-nuclear apocalypse situations. It's just a handful of notes, though. Nothing concrete at all. I was slightly more advanced on a game using similar mechanics to CC and HW, but set in Constantinople during the period 1918 to 1923. Fascinating time, with the city controlled by the WW1 Allies (much like Berlin in the Cold War), with the rise of modern Turkey, revolution, the final death agonies of the Ottoman Empire, the spectre of the young USSR, and then layers of mystery and occultism. Might be worth having a punt at. Needs lots more work, though. I did muse on it a little here (http://collective-endeavour.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=52&page=1#Item_0).

But, regardless of all that, thanks for the interest in Hot War. Personally, I love it as a game and setting and I think it has a lot to offer. My artistic partner Paul did an amazing job with the visuals, putting a lot setting information into posters, memos, and other in-game artefacts. And it's a game that rewards both short and long term play.

There's a whole bunch of stuff about Hot War you can download here (http://www.contestedground.co.uk/hotdown.html), including an intro PDF, short demo with character sheets, and various other bits and bobs. The same stuff is available for Cold City, including the v1.1 system chapter. You can check that out here (http://www.contestedground.co.uk/colddown.html).

Thanks again for the interest! As always, I'd be delighted to answer any questions you might have about either game.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;388326I

Thanks again for the interest! As always, I'd be delighted to answer any questions you might have about either game.

Cheers
Malcolm

Awesome stuff. Lots of research required for the Ottoman one, I'd like a modern day one as an idea--but that's just a preference. I'm vaguely reminded of Charles Stross' Laundry series, which might be another tack to examine--not exactly but iimagine an authoritian state that has arisen purely from bureaucracy and it's need to order the universe. A government in need for control and order--establishes its methods and procedures, but that becomes a self perpetuating power that is blind to the now, and lost in forms and regulations and lines (queues.) Would need some issues of conflict between "Needs Now", and "Wait for approval," along with trust that can be built between agents and their immediate "committee" of rule, which can help them if they follow the rules, but hurt them if they break them too much.



I may have to get Hot War, or Cold City. I keep looking at them going--if I had cash for the print book....I'd snap it up! I'm just a poor game designer though *LOL*

How much supernatural is there in the games?

Quote from: Silverlion;388335I may have to get Hot War, or Cold City. I keep looking at them going--if I had cash for the print book....I'd snap it up! I'm just a poor game designer though *LOL*

How much supernatural is there in the games?

Yeah, I know how it feels! Too many games, too little money.

The supernatural/occult/weird science aspect of the game is something of a sliding scale. That's to say, it's present, but it's up to the group as to how prevalent it is and how much of an impact it has on the game. My building block for this has always been the old BBC Quatermass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Quatermass) series from the 1950s. They always blended the supernatural, science, and contemporary social and political concerns in a very cool way.

Games can be as overt as facing down hordes of Soviet twisted technology creatures in a Thames estuary marsh, or more subtle, like a strange bioweapon that is transmitted like a venereal disease, creeping its way through the remnants of the British government.* That's kind of a long way of saying that the element is pretty much up to the individual group.

Cheers
Malcolm

*That one is actually a game situation created and written up by the very talented Scott Dorward, which will be in the first issue of the quarterly Hot War Transmission, the first issue of which is out next month! You can check out an actual play here (http://collective-endeavour.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=87).

This game clearly not being an RPG as such, I'm moving this thread over to other games, where Story-game discussion belongs.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;388431This game clearly not being an RPG as such, I'm moving this thread over to other games, where Story-game discussion belongs.

RPGPundit

Good to see normal service being resumed. It's your playground, you set the rules.

Still, 99.9% of the gaming population still think it's an RPG, so I guess you are in a distinct minority. As I said, though, it's your playground.

Cheers
Malcolm

I think it's the time of year Malcolm. The site gets a little quiet so Pundit decides to garner some attention and stoke up some controversy to try and increase traffic.

On topic, the Cold War setting intrigues me more at this point because I recently read The Good German, but I've had a look at Hot War too. Anyway, I've just bought the Hot/Cold War joint pack, cheers.

Edit: Where did the post I was replying go to? I'll assume it was Malcom deleting it rather than anyone else.

Quote from: Joshua Ford;388467I think it's the time of year Malcolm. The site gets a little quiet so Pundit decides to garner some attention and stoke up some controversy to try and increase traffic.

On topic, the Cold War setting intrigues me more at this point because I recently read The Good German, but I've had a look at Hot War too. Anyway, I've just bought the Hot/Cold War joint pack, cheers.

Edit: Where did the post I was replying go to? I'll assume it was Malcom deleting it rather than anyone else.

Yeah, I felt my response to Pundit was petty and non-productive, and risked derailing an otherwise very engaging thread. So, sorry for the confusion!

I've only ever seen the film version of The Good German, but enjoyed it a lot. It's certainly a film that provides some great inspiration for Cold City. Would you recommend reading the book as well?

And thanks for buying the books. I hope you enjoy them.

Cheers
Malcolm

I'm confused, I'm not sure if I'd call what I've heard of it a "story game", ah well, I'll read it. I'm willing to be open minded about games. No matter where they come from--unless the author calls me dirty names or something.


Let me read it and I'll post what I think later.

I thought your post was remarkably even-tempered. Especially as the pettiness was not coming from you. Anyway, I'll not derail anymore, do not feed the troll, etc.

To the Good German then. I'd read the book personally - you get a much better flavour for 1945 and there's an important character  completely missing who might well suit Cold City given her personal situation and motivations. The book took a while to get into, but notwithstanding the charms of Cate, I much preferred it to the film. Characters in general felt richer. Funnily enough, I finished reading it and thought it would be a good setting as it was. Lots of conflicting motivations and the opportunity to mix pcs from from week to the next.

I also recently noted that you can explore the Viennese sewers on 3rd Man tours again and have seen that Berlin's sewers are suitably labyrinthine...

Pundits just a hypocrite. Being a dick because he can be. We will just ignore that Gnome Murdered, and Amber fill the shoes of story/forgie games better than Hot/Cold War.

Now that being said I don't personally care for the mechanics of the game. But man it is a fantastic setting. The detail and flavor the book conveys is as the thread topic says "Awesome". The book (Cold or Hot for that matter) is worth buying for the setting alone.

Quote from: Ronin;388496Pundits just a hypocrite. Being a dick because he can be. We will just ignore that Gnome Murdered, and Amber fill the shoes of story/forgie games better than Hot/Cold War.

Now that being said I don't personally care for the mechanics of the game. But man it is a fantastic setting. The detail and flavor the book conveys is as the thread topic says "Awesome". The book (Cold or Hot for that matter) is worth buying for the setting alone.

The setting does sound really neat.  I'll have to recommend it to one of our GM's and see if they are interested in running it.  I would jump at the chance to play a game of it.

If you like the Hot War setting check out Cold War. I personally like it more. But they are both really great settings. If I were to run them I think I would convert them to Unisystem (AFMBE), or maybe Savage Worlds. But reguardless of what system you use (Original or converted) they are full of possibility and awesome.

wrong forum!

Quote from: Joshua Ford;388485To the Good German then. I'd read the book personally - you get a much better flavour for 1945 and there's an important character  completely missing who might well suit Cold City given her personal situation and motivations.

I also recently noted that you can explore the Viennese sewers on 3rd Man tours again and have seen that Berlin's sewers are suitably labyrinthine...

Great, thanks for the recommendation. I'm sure one of the many second hand bookshops here in Edinburgh will have a copy. Gives me an excuse for going and rooting around.

I've never yet made it to Vienna, but would love to do a Third Man tour if I managed to get there. Great film.

Quote from: RoninNow that being said I don't personally care for the mechanics of the game. But man it is a fantastic setting. The detail and flavor the book conveys is as the thread topic says "Awesome". The book (Cold or Hot for that matter) is worth buying for the setting alone.

I'm a big fan of engaging settings myself, hence the stuff int he books. It's the part of games design that's really fun for me. I'm very pleased that you think the books are worth buying just for the setting, that really makes me smile. So, thanks!

Quote from: RoninIf you like the Hot War setting check out Cold War. I personally like it more. But they are both really great settings. If I were to run them I think I would convert them to Unisystem (AFMBE), or maybe Savage Worlds. But reguardless of what system you use (Original or converted) they are full of possibility and awesome.

Just one small correction: It's Cold City, not Cold War. It's a common mistake. I knew that making the titles thematically similar would come back to bite me in the ass!

Are there particular parts of the settings that you found really engaging? I'm always fascinated to find out what bits people find really fun.

Cheers
Malcolm

Hot War is cool.

But Cold City is genius. :cool: (a shame it doesnt have the same visual treatment of Hot War)

Quote from: Ronin;388496The book (Cold or Hot for that matter) is worth buying for the setting alone.

Hells yeah!

Malcolm, you should consider talking with Chaosium about doing a CoC-Cold City setting book...and a Hot War one too.   CoC players would snatch that book up like free pizza at game session.

It would be a natural crossover.

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;388555Just one small correction: It's Cold City, not Cold War. It's a common mistake. I knew that making the titles thematically similar would come back to bite me in the ass!

Mental slip, I knew better.:duh:

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;388555Are there particular parts of the settings that you found really engaging? I'm always fascinated to find out what bits people find really fun.

Cheers
Malcolm

As to what I liked? (I'll focus on Hot War) It has the perfect balance between a full description and enough leaway for the GM to make it their own. Complete without being overbearing or a massive tome. Chapter 2 by itself is made of gold. The poster/advert illustrations through out the book really do illustrate the world you are presenting. They match very well.

Quote from: Spinachcat;388775Hells yeah!

Malcolm, you should consider talking with Chaosium about doing a CoC-Cold City setting book...and a Hot War one too.   CoC players would snatch that book up like free pizza at game session.

It would be a natural crossover.

I can totally get behind that idea.:D

Quote from: Spinachcat;388775Hells yeah!

Malcolm, you should consider talking with Chaosium about doing a CoC-Cold City setting book...and a Hot War one too.   CoC players would snatch that book up like free pizza at game session.

It would be a natural crossover.

Great idea!

Why is thuis in the open games forum?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;388897Why is thuis in the open games forum?

Because Pundy was feeling petty.

Quote from: silva;388770Hot War is cool.

But Cold City is genius. :cool: (a shame it doesnt have the same visual treatment of Hot War)

Thanks. There's certainly been a evolution in the visual treatment of our stuff (all thanks to Paul, really), from a|state, through Cold City, to where we're at with Hot War. Maybe a some point in the future there will be a second edition of Cold City that really goes to town with all the fake memos, photographs, and post-war paraphenalia. That's something I'd certainly love to see.

Quote from: SpinachatMalcolm, you should consider talking with Chaosium about doing a CoC-Cold City setting book...and a Hot War one too. CoC players would snatch that book up like free pizza at game session.

Heh, now that would be something to think about! There have certainly been a lot of hardcore CoC players (such as over at the Yog Sothoth forums) who have taken the stuff in Cold City and run with it for CoC games. If people are using bits of the setting and enjoying it, then more power to them.

Quote from: RoninAs to what I liked? (I'll focus on Hot War) It has the perfect balance between a full description and enough leaway for the GM to make it their own. Complete without being overbearing or a massive tome. Chapter 2 by itself is made of gold. The poster/advert illustrations through out the book really do illustrate the world you are presenting. They match very well.

That really does bring a smile to my face, so thanks for brightening up my morning! One of the big aims with the visual presentation of the game was to have exactly that effect. I'm so glad it has worked!

Quote from: Ghost WhistlerWhy is thuis in the open games forum?

I guess neither Hot War nor Cold City figure in what Pundit thinks a roleplaying game is. Both have a very strong, well defined GM role, very strong, well defined character roles, and so on. Still, it's his playground, so he can do what he wants. Doesn't mean we can't have a fun discussion!

This has been a really heartening thread. I'm delighted to see people enjoying different bits of the games, whether that be setting or system. Thanks for all the feedback.

Cheers
Malcolm

Trail of Cthulhu would be a great fit, actually, if you were interested in branching out. I'm not sure how you'd do trust, which to me is essential, but I'm sure it could be sorted out.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;389037Trail of Cthulhu would be a great fit, actually, if you were interested in branching out. I'm not sure how you'd do trust, which to me is essential, but I'm sure it could be sorted out.

Could be an add in mechanic I imagine.

Well the books turned up in the post today - I'm going to start with Cold War. Excellent turnaround thank you.

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;388909There have certainly been a lot of hardcore CoC players (such as over at the Yog Sothoth forums) who have taken the stuff in Cold City and run with it for CoC games. If people are using bits of the setting and enjoying it, then more power to them.

There is a segment of the gaming population who will play mix & match with systems and settings.  However, the core population is much more tied to "official" product.  

And the Yog Sothoth posts will be great for negotiations with Chaosium since you obviously already have a fanbase among their customers.

Quote from: Joshua Ford;389132Well the books turned up in the post today - I'm going to start with Cold War. Excellent turnaround thank you.

Ah, fantastic! I'm glad they arrived safe and sound. If you've any feedback on them at all, don't hesitate to let me know. Did you get the PDFs as well? They should have been sent to you ASAP through DrivethruRPG, but sometimes there are glitches!

It's exciting times for Hot War at the moment. Just had the final editing comments in for the first issue of The Hot War Transmission, our upcoming quarterly Hot War mini-supplement/scenario thingy. Looking pretty cool, I must admit. Normally we'll be selling the PDF for a few dollars, but the first issue is going to be free, so people check it out and see if it's worthwhile. Try before you buy and all that sort of thing.

Cheers
Malcolm

Well, let's see. I don't actually know this game, so there is a chance that I was wrong.
But this is what people on this thread have told me about it:
1. Malcolm Craig wrote it.
2. Freeform traits (not in and of itself proof of anything, but it adds to the evidence).
3. The game has a "central theme- trust".
4. This "Theme" has a "mechanical weight in the game".
5. This "trust mechanic" is "inspired by The Mountain Witch" (a notable NON-RPG STORYGAME).
6. Characters have fixed "agendas".


Now, on the other hand, Malcolm says that the game has "a very strong, well defined GM role, very strong, well defined character roles, and so on". But what are these roles? Can the GM say "NO" to a player, without any prevarication? Can a player decide something about the world and the GM has to go with it?
Saying "the GM and players have strong well-defined roles" means fuck all if those roles are being strongly defined as "The GM has no power and the player can do whatever the fuck he wants with the world".

So if you guys want this thread back on the main RPG forum, go ahead, convince me. In particular convince me that a game with a central mechanical feature borrowed from one of the most infamous cases of the worst excesses of Forge Swine Storygaming is somehow regular.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;3900635. This "trust mechanic" is "inspired by The Mountain Witch" (a notable NON-RPG STORYGAME).

That's Cold City. Hot War doesn't have trust mechanics. By the by, Mountain Witch is a really fun game. The best time I had with it was when my friend Simon, who lived in Japan and has wide knowledge of Japanese mythology, ran it. Really good times. You should play it sometime, if you haven't already.

QuoteNow, on the other hand, Malcolm says that the game has "a very strong, well defined GM role, very strong, well defined character roles, and so on". But what are these roles? Can the GM say "NO" to a player, without any prevarication? Can a player decide something about the world and the GM has to go with it?
Saying "the GM and players have strong well-defined roles" means fuck all if those roles are being strongly defined as "The GM has no power and the player can do whatever the fuck he wants with the world".

So if you guys want this thread back on the main RPG forum, go ahead, convince me. In particular convince me that a game with a central mechanical feature borrowed from one of the most infamous cases of the worst excesses of Forge Swine Storygaming is somehow regular.

Nope, I don' think that's necessary. And, let's be honest with each other, nothing I say about either game will shift your position in any way at all. We seem to be having a good thread right here without it being shifted back to the main forum. I mean, everyone I've played Cold City and Hot War with think they are both RPGs. But, if you don't, it's your call. I think you're wrong, but it's not such a huge issue that I can't live with it.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote1. Malcolm Craig wrote it.
2. Freeform traits (not in and of itself proof of anything, but it adds to the evidence).
3. The game has a "central theme- trust".
4. This "Theme" has a "mechanical weight in the game".
5. This "trust mechanic" is "inspired by The Mountain Witch" (a notable NON-RPG STORYGAME).
6. Characters have fixed "agendas".

1. RPG Pundit wrote it.
2. Lack of traits, skills, classes or anything else to customize or make a character your own.
3. The game has a "central theme- gnome murder".
4. This "Theme" has a "mechanical weight in the game".
5. This "gnome murder" is "inspired by a coin flip" (a notable NON-RPG GAME).
6. Characters have fixed "agendas".

Yet this "game" still has its very own section on a purportedly RPG only site. Perhaps those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

I've not yet had time to sit down and read Hot War.

Still, I am planning on it soon. (I don't read and understand on the computer as readily than with a book in my hand. I'm old..I'll blame that this time.)

Cold City and Hot War are roleplaying games, very good ones, despite what Pajero/Pundit seems to think.

My $.02.

TrekkieKT
Peace, Love and Wombats

Quote from: Ronin;3901371. RPG Pundit wrote it.
2. Lack of traits, skills, classes or anything else to customize or make a character your own.
3. The game has a "central theme- gnome murder".
4. This "Theme" has a "mechanical weight in the game".
5. This "gnome murder" is "inspired by a coin flip" (a notable NON-RPG GAME).
6. Characters have fixed "agendas".

Yet this "game" still has its very own section on a purportedly RPG only site. Perhaps those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Hehe... you're right about every point there except the last one.  Unless you consider "don't get killed by Gnomes while doing everything else" an "agenda".
Also, point 5 is a little misleading, since the central mechanic is a die roll, not a coin flip (though I get the essence of your point, since its a 50-50 chance usually).

Of course, Gnomemurdered is an RPG; it has a traditional GM-player dynamic, it doesn't centrally involve the "creation of story", and it doesn't let players direct the setting.

But you do get, also, that Gnomemurdered is at least in part a parody of pretentious rules-lite games, right?

Anyways, this is me still waiting to hear a good set of arguments as to how Hot War is not a Storygame.

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;390195Hehe... you're right about every point there except the last one.  Unless you consider "don't get killed by Gnomes while doing everything else" an "agenda".
Also, point 5 is a little misleading, since the central mechanic is a die roll, not a coin flip (though I get the essence of your point, since its a 50-50 chance usually).

Of course, Gnomemurdered is an RPG; it has a traditional GM-player dynamic, it doesn't centrally involve the "creation of story", and it doesn't let players direct the setting.

But you do get, also, that Gnomemurdered is at least in part a parody of pretentious rules-lite games, right?

Anyways, this is me still waiting to hear a good set of arguments as to how Hot War is not a Storygame.

RPGpundit

OK I'll bite pundy.
Your points 3-6 are all false. There is no central trust theme in hot war. So it holds no "mechanical weight', and is not inspired by "The Mountain Witch". The characters may have agendas. But in the sense that all RPG characters have agendas, tendencies, likes, dislikes, and etc.
Now that being said, it is written in story game style. I think it really pushes player/GM advise in the section explaining the traits. But it is the DM that "frames" the scene. (I know I dont like the term either but you get my meaning.) The traits, (which agendas and relationships are in reality as well) add or subtract to a dice pool. It reminds me of Over the Edge.
So sure the system has some story game terminology, and ideas. But it is definitely a traditional game. But even if you dont care for the system, the setting is really great Pundit. Over all I dont care for the system. I would totally use something else. But as I said before the game is worth purchasing for the setting alone. Because when it comes down to it. Its an RPG about surviving in 1960's post apoc London and fighting supernatural horrors unleashed in World War III.

It's a bullshit argument to get into. Whether or not Hot War or Cold City are "storygames" is beside the point, a trick to get you to implicitly accept Pundit's whole "storygames aren't RPGs" bullshit. Malcolm Craig is 100% right--there was a good discussion going on, and I was enjoying reading it before Pundit dragged it into his imaginary war. (I couldn't really contribute because I don't know the games. They sound great, though. I may check them out.) I say ignore the troll and continue the discussion.

EDIT: will reply properly after the football

Malcolm,

A guy stopped by the booth at Origins on Sunday asking for Cold City. He said he'd heard about it from this thread, which is pretty cool. We sold out Saturday morning so he left empty-handed.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;390562Malcolm,

A guy stopped by the booth at Origins on Sunday asking for Cold City. He said he'd heard about it from this thread, which is pretty cool. We sold out Saturday morning so he left empty-handed.

That is awesome. I'm glad this thread did something cool..:D

I can't speak about Hot War.  Just my experience with Cold City.

But what are these roles?

We were able to make our own characters without classes.  But like every modern espionage point buy game, people niched themselves A-Team style so we had the Gun Dude, the Faceman, the Investigation Dude and the Occult Dude.

I am a fan of classes myself because 9 times out of 10, players create a "class" and a "niche" with their point-buys.  

Can the GM say "NO" to a player, without any prevarication?

I guess so.  I don't play with bitches who need to piss off the GM.  The only issues we had initially was making sure everyone understood the world of pre-Cold War Berlin.  AKA, how Russia and the USA weren't instant-adversaries and how Britian wasn't just America's bitch.  If there were any "NO" moments, it was just imparting setting understanding.

I didn't see any more "Narrative Control" than in any other free-form RPG.  

Can a player decide something about the world and the GM has to go with it?

Nothing more than usual.   During play on the fly, my French lothario Faceman told the GM that I wanted to have a paramour in the Russian embassy.   This was not established earlier, but the GM went with it.  

As a player, I had no power to compel the GM to do anything, other than offering up a fun bit for him to manipulate.   He agreed and then (as usual) twisted my happy moment against me with great cruelty.

Saying "the GM and players have strong well-defined roles" means fuck all if those roles are being strongly defined as "The GM has no power and the player can do whatever the fuck he wants with the world".

There was ZERO of this in my experience with Cold City.

Zero. Nada. None.

BTW, I was with some CoC hardcores over the weekend at the PolyCon convention and when I brought up the idea of CoC Cold City, they were extremely enthused.    They had heard of the game, but because it was not for CoC, they didn't buy it.  We talked conversion, but only one of the three was a converting guy, the other two just like to have pre-made official stuff.

Malcolm, I have no doubt you have a secondary market for your setting.

Quote from: RPGPundit;390063Well, let's see. I don't actually know this game, so there is a chance that I was wrong.
But this is what people on this thread have told me about it:
1. Malcolm Craig wrote it.
2. Freeform traits (not in and of itself proof of anything, but it adds to the evidence).
3. The game has a "central theme- trust".
4. This "Theme" has a "mechanical weight in the game".
5. This "trust mechanic" is "inspired by The Mountain Witch" (a notable NON-RPG STORYGAME).
6. Characters have fixed "agendas".


Now, on the other hand, Malcolm says that the game has "a very strong, well defined GM role, very strong, well defined character roles, and so on". But what are these roles? Can the GM say "NO" to a player, without any prevarication? Can a player decide something about the world and the GM has to go with it?
Saying "the GM and players have strong well-defined roles" means fuck all if those roles are being strongly defined as "The GM has no power and the player can do whatever the fuck he wants with the world".

So if you guys want this thread back on the main RPG forum, go ahead, convince me. In particular convince me that a game with a central mechanical feature borrowed from one of the most infamous cases of the worst excesses of Forge Swine Storygaming is somehow regular.

RPGPundit

ffs yo uwere the first to bemoan rpg.net to split the rpg forum between d20/D&D and everything else, and you're doing the same here. how in the fuck can you think this isn't an rpg? It's not a boardgame, cardgame or computer game. This is ridiculous.

Thanks for all the support for both games here, it really, genuinely is appreciated.

I tend to be quite inclusive (as many people would be, I imagine) in my definition of 'RPG'. Others (like Pundit) prefer a more exclusive definition. Personally, I don't think that's positive for discussion of the hobby, but I'm not going to get wound up about it.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;390562Malcolm,

A guy stopped by the booth at Origins on Sunday asking for Cold City. He said he'd heard about it from this thread, which is pretty cool. We sold out Saturday morning so he left empty-handed.

Ah, that's wonderful Jason, thanks for letting me know! I hope the interested customer does manage to get the game somehow.

Quote from: SpinachatSnipped cool Cold City stuff for brevity

That sounds like great fun. I do love it when people play up to stereotypes, such as the French lothario, and it comes back to bite them in the ass. One of my fondest moments in Cold City was in a game at Gen Con Indy 2007 (I think it was). The Player who had the French character had created the personal hidden agenda "Beg, borrow, or steal enough money to escape from Europe and live somewhere tropical." In his epilogue for his character, he described him settling down in a new, white painted French colonial house, jungle covered mountains in the distance, a cool drink in his had. As a troop of French soldiers march by on the dusty road. Vietnam, late 1950. Great to see players taking that kind of thing and running with it.

Quote from: Ghost Whistlerffs yo uwere the first to bemoan rpg.net to split the rpg forum between d20/D&D and everything else, and you're doing the same here. how in the fuck can you think this isn't an rpg? It's not a boardgame, cardgame or computer game. This is ridiculous.

It's not worth the stress man. I agree, there is a certain amount of hypocrisy in Pundit's position, but let's not get wound up about it. We should enjoy discussing games and just ignore what's going on in the background. I doubt Pundit will be argued into changing his mind any time in the near future.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;390695Ah, that's wonderful Jason, thanks for letting me know! I hope the interested customer does manage to get the game somehow.

I definitely pointed him in the right direction. There was a lot of interest in both Cold City and Hot War at the show, which was great to see.

I have just finished reading the setting parts of the book and must say Im very impressed by it.
Knowing London very well myself the thought of it as a damaged and fearsome place full of evil both human and inhuman is just perfect for a dark change of pace to my games.
The details in what to read or watch to add to the atmosphere of the setting really helps as well.
Ive not read the system parts as yet and so cant comment on them but IMHO the setting makes the game a buy anyway.
Im also reading Charles Stross's The Atrocity Archives and as noted in the Hot War book the two work hand in hand as to style.

I dont care where this thread lives its IMHO one hell of a game thats for sure, well done Malcolm :)

Quote from: two_fishes;390287It's a bullshit argument to get into. Whether or not Hot War or Cold City are "storygames" is beside the point, a trick to get you to implicitly accept Pundit's whole "storygames aren't RPGs" bullshit. Malcolm Craig is 100% right--there was a good discussion going on, and I was enjoying reading it before Pundit dragged it into his imaginary war. (I couldn't really contribute because I don't know the games. They sound great, though. I may check them out.) I say ignore the troll and continue the discussion.

Storygames aren't RPGs.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;390776Storygames aren't RPGs.

RPGPundit

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;390693ffs yo uwere the first to bemoan rpg.net to split the rpg forum between d20/D&D and everything else, and you're doing the same here. how in the fuck can you think this isn't an rpg? It's not a boardgame, cardgame or computer game. This is ridiculous.

Speaking not specifically of Hot War here, but of Storygames; there is a big difference between RPG.net's case and this.
In RPG.net's case, they took the single most popular RPG, and put it in a ghetto apart from everything else.
In my case, I'm taking a movement of games that are not in fact RPGs but are trying to subvert that term, and putting them in their proper place.

The difference would be akin to a forum about comics on the one hand excluding all DC comics into their own ghetto and forbidding talk about them in the "main" comics forum; and on the other hand if a forum about comics excluded conversation about the Twilight books into a non-comics forum.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;390695It's not worth the stress man. I agree, there is a certain amount of hypocrisy in Pundit's position, but let's not get wound up about it. We should enjoy discussing games and just ignore what's going on in the background. I doubt Pundit will be argued into changing his mind any time in the near future.

Cheers
Malcolm

Well, we'll see. You've reacted very well, to your credit. And if you do end up sending a review copy as you promised/threatened/offered, that will be the best way to judge. If I read the rules, and see for myself, there'll be no debate one way or the other. And of course, if my conclusion is that Hot War is an RPG, this thread will go back to the main forum.

RPGPundit

Malcolm, I'm curious, how do you think the more expansive setting of Hot War influences play? Cold City is tightly focused and sort of claustrophobic (in a good way), but Hot War seems like it could go in a lot of different directions in both theme and scope. Based on what you've seen people do with the two games, are you happy with the choice to open the setting up? Is there any dissonance from players moving from one to the other?

Right, just to add to the party (now that the World Cup is a past event for the England team):

- Cold City: I suspect it would be my preferred choice for an rpg setting. Perhaps it's the setting and the other media I've watched or read. Maybe it's my visit to Berlin last summer too - I'm planning on going back this year.

- Hot War: I got a convention skirmish game vibe from this. The secret agendas made think of a number of games with hidden motives. It reminded me too of a 90s British rpg mag with a Dr Who scenario where John Wayne and Ronald Reagan had swithed places and London was nuked. Perhaps it's a bit too bleak for me, although it would be up to the GM to make it less so, or at least offer some hope. That's a personal thing for me though.

Both settings were incredibly vivid though. I liked the idea of the nuclear sub powering London and the artwork really contributed. Not had too much time to look at the systems yet. For either I would see Trust as really contributing to the mood, but particularly Cold City - whatever system you choose to play I think you need to consider how you create that tension between supposed allies.

Excellent work Malcolm.

Anyway

Both of these rpgs sound really good to me.  Gonna have to pick up at least one of them soon if just to read.  Hopefully get one of the GMs here to run them as well, even if it's only a couple of one shots.

My take on a first read:

It is an RPG, with a lot of story games influence. It has a lot of FATE like construction. My personal view is it looks like someone took Over the Edge and mated it with Fate aspects, and expanded aspects a bit.

Relationships are aspects, but a focused one that makes the thing a bit more personal as well.

Bad things: The example of play aspects seem to spend more time talking about the "game" side of things, than the actual "I am here in the characters head" style aspect of things. I prefer the latter not the former. Discussing mechanics of play--during play---is something I dislike beyond "roll/response." It is one of my problems with how some people play aspects--they don't drop them into the narrative/character viewpoint in some way. Of course that tends to make play a bit melodramatic, but most RPG's are a little in play anyway.  (Bad Aspects for me: I tag my "trained by the master swordsman Alejandro Santos!" Good: "Ha, you think you can best me, I was trained by Alejandro Santos!"  (hand the GM a physical token or say "tag" simply and move on.)

I like it. One of my playgroups its entirely out. It just isn't there thing. The other group, might, they prefer fantasy though, lately.

We'll see. I'm always willing to try something before deciding it doesn't work.

Quote from: RPGPundit;390779Well, we'll see. You've reacted very well, to your credit. And if you do end up sending a review copy as you promised/threatened/offered, that will be the best way to judge. If I read the rules, and see for myself, there'll be no debate one way or the other. And of course, if my conclusion is that Hot War is an RPG, this thread will go back to the main forum.

Let me make myself clear: I'm really not bothered in which forum sub-section of the RPGsite a discussion on Hot War sits. It's just not a big issue for me. I have an inclusive view of RPGs which encompasses 'story games'. You have an exclusive view of RPGs which excludes 'story games'. That's it. There's no big debate here, neither of us are trying to (or able to) change the mind of the other. So it's a moot point.

I do find it hilarious, though, that I'm part of a movement trying to subvert RPGs. Do I get a t-shirt or something? Is there a handshake?

Oh! Here's more grist for your suspicion mill, Pundit: my character in our ongoing D&D 3.5 game is a gnome rogue called 'Big Dave' Buckfast. Gnomes!

Quote from: Jason MorningstarMalcolm, I'm curious, how do you think the more expansive setting of Hot War influences play? Cold City is tightly focused and sort of claustrophobic (in a good way), but Hot War seems like it could go in a lot of different directions in both theme and scope. Based on what you've seen people do with the two games, are you happy with the choice to open the setting up? Is there any dissonance from players moving from one to the other?

One thing I've noticed is that, because of the way the game is set up and particularly because of the focus on trust, the stories are almost entirely focused on the characters. In Hot War, where things are more, and relationships take the place of trust, the focus is still on the characters, but we see a much more important light shone on NPCs in the game, particularly those whom the characters have relationships with.

Based on my experiences, yes, I'm delighted with the way both games have played out. The setting of Hot War is much more open to doing things that don't involve the Special Situations Group. For example, Scott Dorward (who produced some great situations and characters for convention play) has ran a game called 'Kitchen Sink Drama' several times with great success. It's a family drama about people surviving in the devastated London of Hot War. Quite a remove from the standard setup. But workable and worthwhile.

Moving from one game o the other, I think it's a change in experiences and focus for a group, but not a jarring one.

Quote from: Joshua FordRight, just to add to the party (now that the World Cup is a past event for the England team):

- Cold City: I suspect it would be my preferred choice for an rpg setting. Perhaps it's the setting and the other media I've watched or read. Maybe it's my visit to Berlin last summer too - I'm planning on going back this year.

- Hot War: I got a convention skirmish game vibe from this. The secret agendas made think of a number of games with hidden motives. It reminded me too of a 90s British rpg mag with a Dr Who scenario where John Wayne and Ronald Reagan had swithed places and London was nuked. Perhaps it's a bit too bleak for me, although it would be up to the GM to make it less so, or at least offer some hope. That's a personal thing for me though.

Heh, yes, it is a somewhat bleak setting! For many people (such as yourself) it certainly seems that Berlin during the Cold War is a much more powerful cultural touchstone. Perhaps more recent films like the Good German have also help reinforce this. Still, I do find that people often have a favourite between the two and I'm glad that you found things to like in both books.

Thanks for your kind comments and I do hope that you get some fun play out of both games.

Quote from: SilverlionBad things: The example of play aspects seem to spend more time talking about the "game" side of things, than the actual "I am here in the characters head" style aspect of things. I prefer the latter not the former. Discussing mechanics of play--during play---is something I dislike beyond "roll/response." It is one of my problems with how some people play aspects--they don't drop them into the narrative/character viewpoint in some way. Of course that tends to make play a bit melodramatic, but most RPG's are a little in play anyway. (Bad Aspects for me: I tag my "trained by the master swordsman Alejandro Santos!" Good: "Ha, you think you can best me, I was trained by Alejandro Santos!" (hand the GM a physical token or say "tag" simply and move on.)

That's a fair point, yes. I like to use the example of play to illustrate how the mechanics are used during play and a detailed and useable way. A matter of personal preference, I agree. Some groups just might not mesh with the way the game works. And that's fine. I do hope that if you end up playing, it doesn't turn out to be an entirely wasted experience for you.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: RPGPundit;390776Storygames aren't RPGs.

RPGPundit

OK I'll bite as well.

What gives you the right to decide that your view of what is or not a RPG is correct ?
Thats break this down to its very core here, what is a RPG ?
Take away the rules/system/mechanics and whats left in any RPG ?, well that to me is simple a "story" and a story that is told by the interactions of both the GM and players.
You can take a game and play the session as a adhoc LRP and I have done so myself.

Rog.

Quote from: Roger Calver;390709I have just finished reading the setting parts of the book and must say Im very impressed by it.
Knowing London very well myself the thought of it as a damaged and fearsome place full of evil both human and inhuman is just perfect for a dark change of pace to my games.
The details in what to read or watch to add to the atmosphere of the setting really helps as well.
Ive not read the system parts as yet and so cant comment on them but IMHO the setting makes the game a buy anyway.
Im also reading Charles Stross's The Atrocity Archives and as noted in the Hot War book the two work hand in hand as to style.

I dont care where this thread lives its IMHO one hell of a game thats for sure, well done Malcolm :)

Ah, how remiss. You last post reminded me that I hadn't responded to this one. Sorry about that.

I'm always relieved when people who have an in-depth knowledge of London find that the setting resonates with them. I'm glad you've found the mediography in the back of the book useful as well. It's the kind of thing that I really like to see in a game book, as it gives me a great idea of where the author is coming from and what their influences were. If there are two things that section that people playing Hot War should try to watch, it would be 'The War Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Game)' and 'Threads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threads)'. Admittedly, two of the most grim pieces of cinema ever to come out of the UK, but compelling viewing.

Cheers
Malcolm

It the part about a war torn London that pinged my interest in the game in the first place.
Anyone who has walked the streets or used the Tube of London could very easily see both as a twisted vision of Hot War, the Tube can be a dark place if you have ever got the last train at night in the real world and add in monsters etc its even more stark.
The images in the game in particular the damaged Tower bridge etc show this to maximum effect.

Again IMHO a setting that is both vivid and disturbing.

Rog.

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;390847L

That's a fair point, yes. I like to use the example of play to illustrate how the mechanics are used during play and a detailed and useable way. A matter of personal preference, I agree. Some groups just might not mesh with the way the game works. And that's fine. I do hope that if you end up playing, it doesn't turn out to be an entirely wasted experience for you.

Cheers
Malcolm

No worries. I hope I get the chance to play. I try almost every game I own eventually. Some rock, some don't.  Don't get me wrong--I like 95% of what I read. I can't say that for most "story games" if it is labeled one, but I'm not much for labels. I know some games work for me, some don't, no matter what we call them--board game, RPG's, story games.

I've a friend who loves Horror games, and I think if I focus on the subtle horror aspect of play, he'd eat it up. Especially with the zombies that are suggested in it.



By the way I love the Living Steel Reference I hadn't thought of that game in a long long time.

Quote from: Roger Calver;390851It the part about a war torn London that pinged my interest in the game in the first place.
Anyone who has walked the streets or used the Tube of London could very easily see both as a twisted vision of Hot War, the Tube can be a dark place if you have ever got the last train at night in the real world and add in monsters etc its even more stark.
The images in the game in particular the damaged Tower bridge etc show this to maximum effect.

Again IMHO a setting that is both vivid and disturbing.

You're so right. The Underground is a fascinating and remarkable environment. If you haven't read it, I'd heartily recommend The Subterranean Railway (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2005/jan/08/featuresreviews.guardianreview17) by Christian Wolmar. It's an excellent account of the history, social, and cultural impact of the Underground. An excellent read.

Quote from: SilverlionBy the way I love the Living Steel Reference I hadn't thought of that game in a long long time.

Hah, I'm glad someone noticed that! Living Steel is one of those games that I'm incredibly conflicted about. On one had, I found the setting absorbing. On the other hand, the mechanics gave me nosebleeds.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: RPGPundit;390778Speaking not specifically of Hot War here, but of Storygames; there is a big difference between RPG.net's case and this.
In RPG.net's case, they took the single most popular RPG, and put it in a ghetto apart from everything else.
In my case, I'm taking a movement of games that are not in fact RPGs but are trying to subvert that term, and putting them in their proper place.

The difference would be akin to a forum about comics on the one hand excluding all DC comics into their own ghetto and forbidding talk about them in the "main" comics forum; and on the other hand if a forum about comics excluded conversation about the Twilight books into a non-comics forum.

RPGPundit

Let's cut the bollocks.

You're being stupid.

The first place visitors to this site (who are the only people that might be interested in coming here to find out what peopel here think or know about Hot War) are going to look is the RPG Forum, not Other Games. You are defeating the point of having this site by behaving like this and you are behaving worse than any of the twats who make policy on rpg.net. Grow up ffs.

You might no like story games and Hot War may be better described as a story game, but it is still an rpg.

Quote from: RPGPundit;390779Well, we'll see. You've reacted very well, to your credit. And if you do end up sending a review copy as you promised/threatened/offered, that will be the best way to judge. If I read the rules, and see for myself, there'll be no debate one way or the other. And of course, if my conclusion is that Hot War is an RPG, this thread will go back to the main forum.

RPGPundit

Why on earth don't you give the game the benefit of the doubt? How would you feel if someone did this to your game? It's just petulance.

This is the thread title for the RPG sectionof this board.

"Roleplaying Games (RPGs)
For discussion of traditional pen-and-paper roleplaying games and anything related to their game mechanics and settings, as well as industry events and gossip."

So as Hot War has a setting and mechanics how or why isnt it in the RPG section ?
It is also a tradition pen-and-paper RPG, you have dice to roll and paper to write on for PC's, NPC's etc.
So by your own thread titles it MUST be included or you are just picking your own battles at the expense of the forum and its memership.

Rog.

Quote from: Roger Calver;390903This is the thread title for the RPG sectionof this board.

"Roleplaying Games (RPGs)
For discussion of traditional pen-and-paper roleplaying games and anything related to their game mechanics and settings, as well as industry events and gossip."

So as Hot War has a setting and mechanics how or why isnt it in the RPG section ?
Rog.

Mostly because of the Story Games aspects in it--Pundit doesn't like them at all, and doesn't feel they're RPG's, I've not seen many I think are RPGs clearly enough to disagree for the most part. Although Hot War does look far more traditional than most of them. (Strangely enough so is Burning Wheel, which I don't like at all.)

So if a poll was cast asking where Hot War should be would Pundit move or leave it based on the results ?
In other words is this forum a Democracy or a dictatorship ?

Actually to get this thread backto the OP can I ask an admin to split this into two seperate threads please ?

Quote from: Silverlion;390937(Strangely enough so is Burning Wheel, which I don't like at all.)

Well Burning Wheel was originally influenced by AD&D 1e (which Crane played through the 90s) and Shadowrun, so it's first iteration was very traditional.  The revised edition is where he mixes Forge ideas with the BW design.  BW Classic was not influenced by the Forge at all, AFAIK.

However, Beliefs, Instincts, Traits, etc., were all there before the Forge, as was the proclamation that the game was about making stories.

Anywho, to get back on topic, just got my PDFs, and I like what I'm reading so far.  Very evocative settings (especially so because of the time periods chosen), and the mechanics seem nifty (though I'll reserve final judgment till I can force my group to sit down and play a few sessions ;)).

The 'Zone of Alienation' definitely reminds me of Roadside Picnic/Stalker/Shadow of Chernobyl, just in England instead of Ukraine.

Quote from: Peregrin;390970Anywho, to get back on topic, just got my PDFs, and I like what I'm reading so far.  Very evocative settings (especially so because of the time periods chosen), and the mechanics seem nifty (though I'll reserve final judgment till I can force my group to sit down and play a few sessions ;)).

The 'Zone of Alienation' definitely reminds me of Roadside Picnic/Stalker/Shadow of Chernobyl, just in England instead of Ukraine.

Spot on. The Zone of Alienation is very much an analogue of the Chernobyl exclusion zone (the very name itself is exactly the same) and a respectful homage to Stalker/Roadside Picnic.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: Roger Calver;390849OK I'll bite as well.

What gives you the right to decide that your view of what is or not a RPG is correct ?
Thats break this down to its very core here, what is a RPG ?
Take away the rules/system/mechanics and whats left in any RPG ?, well that to me is simple a "story" and a story that is told by the interactions of both the GM and players.
You can take a game and play the session as a adhoc LRP and I have done so myself.

Rog.

No, that's not "a story", the point of that isn't "let's make a story", its "let's play pretend".  When kids do it, their goal isn't to make a story, its to play a role. Likewise, in RPGs, any "story" that happens is a completely coincidental byproduct of a method that is NOT DESIGNED to tell good stories. Quite the opposite, the RPG is designed to simulate a virtual reality, not to read like a novel.

No matter how much some people want it to be to the contrary.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;390886Why on earth don't you give the game the benefit of the doubt? How would you feel if someone did this to your game? It's just petulance.

I would not expect the Forge or Storygames forums to give my games the benefit of the doubt and assume they're storygames until proven otherwise, that's just silly.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Roger Calver;390903This is the thread title for the RPG sectionof this board.

"Roleplaying Games (RPGs)
For discussion of traditional pen-and-paper roleplaying games and anything related to their game mechanics and settings, as well as industry events and gossip."

So as Hot War has a setting and mechanics how or why isnt it in the RPG section ?
It is also a tradition pen-and-paper RPG, you have dice to roll and paper to write on for PC's, NPC's etc.
So by your own thread titles it MUST be included or you are just picking your own battles at the expense of the forum and its memership.

Rog.

Other Games
For discussion of all other games, including story-games, miniatures, board, card, computer, and video.

So yeah, the question is if its a story game. The philosophy of this site, clearly spelled out in several places, is that games that are Story Games are NOT RPGs. A thread about The Mountain Witch or My Life With Master or Dogs in the Vinyard would all belong on this subforum, as they are not RPGs.
The only real question is whether Hot War is an RPG.

RPGpundit

Quote from: Roger Calver;390939So if a poll was cast asking where Hot War should be would Pundit move or leave it based on the results ?
In other words is this forum a Democracy or a dictatorship ?

This forum is not a democracy, it never has been. It is a civil dictatorship like that of Rome under Vespasian.
What will move the game back to the main RPG forum is if I personally am convinced that I acted in haste and Hot War is actually an RPG.

RPGpundit

Quote from: Roger Calver;390945Actually to get this thread backto the OP can I ask an admin to split this into two seperate threads please ?

It is not our policy to go around splitting up threads per se; but what I would propose is this: from here on in, discussions about my policies or theRPGsite's policies (and the attempts to argue in defense of Hot War being an RPG) should go to a thread in my subforum, and on this thread (or a new one, if people prefer) the discussion about Hot War's qualities as a game can continue to be discussed.

So for my part, I'm not going to continue answering things here.
If people want to continue to discuss with me, someone should start a thread about this subject on the RPGPundit's Forum.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;390986Spot on. The Zone of Alienation is very much an analogue of the Chernobyl exclusion zone (the very name itself is exactly the same) and a respectful homage to Stalker/Roadside Picnic.

Cheers
Malcolm

If I had read a little further I would've seen that you list Stalker in the mediagrophy.  Doh.

Really though, props for putting the Zone in there.  It's a concept I've been wanting to see done in tabletop for a while now, and having it in Hot War gives me a great excuse to use it at the table.

My brother's only done a brief stint with RPGs with some of his friends, but he's really into Eastern European post-apoc literature like Roadside and Metro 2033 -- I might be able to get him to sit at the table again if I let him look over Hot War.  :)

Quote from: RPGPundit;391026This forum is not a democracy, it never has been. It is a civil dictatorship like that of Rome under Vespasian.
What will move the game back to the main RPG forum is if I personally am convinced that I acted in haste and Hot War is actually an RPG.

RPGpundit

You really have lost the plot.

As requested Ive opened a thread in your subforum.

Quote from: Peregrin;391036If I had read a little further I would've seen that you list Stalker in the mediagrophy.  Doh.

Really though, props for putting the Zone in there.  It's a concept I've been wanting to see done in tabletop for a while now, and having it in Hot War gives me a great excuse to use it at the table.

My brother's only done a brief stint with RPGs with some of his friends, but he's really into Eastern European post-apoc literature like Roadside and Metro 2033 -- I might be able to get him to sit at the table again if I let him look over Hot War.  :)

I'd be really interested to hear how you use the Zone in play. It's one of the deliberately ambiguous things that groups really could make their mark on. Actually, in the upcoming first issue of the Hot War Transmission, the pre-created game situation revolves around dust that was been brought back from the Zone. It presents one interpretation of what the Zone might be and what it might do.

Oh, and if your brother is into that kind of Eastern European fiction, I'd recommend The Slynx by Tatyana Tolstaya (if he hasn't read it already). Very odd, but worthwhile.

Cheers
Malcolm

Why the fuck is this thread still in the wrong forum?

Quote from: Roger Calver;390849What gives you the right to decide that your view of what is or not a RPG is correct ?

Being a gamer.

Quote from: Roger Calver;390849Thats break this down to its very core here, what is a RPG ?
Take away the rules/system/mechanics and whats left in any RPG ?, well that to me is simple a "story" and a story that is told by the interactions of both the GM and players.

No.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17329

Oh, as I mentioned up-thread, we've been working on a new quarterly mini-supplement for Hot War. Well, the first, full colour 36 page issue is now available to download for free! There's more about it here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17731).

Cheers
Malcolm

Holy crap, Malcolm, that's fantastic. I am digging the Quartermass stuff.

This adds a ton of value to Hot War - well done.

I'll definitely get these at some point just for the read and the setting, but I definitely won't use that type of system with it.

As to whether it's an RPG or not, I haven't read it, but it sure sounds from the description that the game comes down more on the side of player viewpoint, agenda, and intent, rather then character viewpoint, agenda and intent.

That, to me is a storygame. Yes storygames include roleplaying elements, that doesn't define them as an RPG.

Well, that's cool an' all Krueg, but we already have a lengthy thread in Pundit's that was split off to keep discussion about story-game vs rpg out of this thread. ;)

Also, it's something to note that the agendas are character-centric, and the game offers advice for running it as a closed-book affair (information about character agendas is secret and only the GM is aware of them).  That mode of play is very GM-centric, and seems to me to work well in promoting a more "trad" playstyle.

Quote from: Peregrin;393617Well, that's cool an' all Krueg, but we already have a lengthy thread in Pundit's that was split off to keep discussion about story-game vs rpg out of this thread. ;)

Also, it's something to note that the agendas are character-centric, and the game offers advice for running it as a closed-book affair (information about character agendas is secret and only the GM is aware of them).  That mode of play is very GM-centric, and seems to me to work well in promoting a more "trad" playstyle.

Ok, I'll derail my derailment.

It seems like the emphasis moving forward is Hot War, is there going to be more stuff for Cold City?

Also, this setting seems like a natural for tie-in novels, any plans on that front?

Quote from: CRKrueger;393618Ok, I'll derail my derailment.

It seems like the emphasis moving forward is Hot War, is there going to be more stuff for Cold City?

Yes, there is indeed. In terms of free support, 2011 will see 'Monster of the Month', where each month we'll have a PDF download that gives an RPA report on a monster, plus game stats, and plot hooks.

I'm also working (slowly) on Cold City: Red Sun, which allows you to take the action to Tokyo in 1950. Which could well be a fascinating little addition to the game.

QuoteAlso, this setting seems like a natural for tie-in novels, any plans on that front?

I can definitely say no to that one!

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;394109Yes, there is indeed. In terms of free support, 2011 will see 'Monster of the Month', where each month we'll have a PDF download that gives an RPA report on a monster, plus game stats, and plot hooks.

I'm also working (slowly) on Cold City: Red Sun, which allows you to take the action to Tokyo in 1950. Which could well be a fascinating little addition to the game.

I can definitely say no to that one!

Cheers
Malcolm

Monster of the Month is a great idea and Tokyo 1950 should be fascinating indeed.

Crap, I meant "book" not "novel".  I was thinking more like a collection of short stories, tales that give a flash of insight into the day-to-day life of the setting.

Quote from: CRKrueger;394117Monster of the Month is a great idea and Tokyo 1950 should be fascinating indeed.

Crap, I meant "book" not "novel".  I was thinking more like a collection of short stories, tales that give a flash of insight into the day-to-day life of the setting.

Grand. I hink this is first time I've actually mentioned MotM publicly, so great to get a positive initial response. I see the individual PDFs being like little RPA case folders that agents can look at in the files. Handy as both inspiration, and as handouts in play.

The Red Sun book is still in the early planning stages, but will be almost entirely setting, rather than any game mechanical stuff. Although, there will be certain changes to things like National Hidden Agendas and so forth, to reflect the differences between Berlin and Tokyo in 1950. Expect lots of stuff about Unit 731 and various other things.

Cheers
Malcolm

Cold City:  Red Sun sounds awesome.

A guy in my group bought Hot War and was going to run it, but then sadly left the group and took the game with him.

A tragedy!

Any games likely to run at Dragonmeet or anything like that some time?  The cons always just seem to be 15 minute demos, which are a pet hate of mine (well, pet minor dislike, but that sounds kind of lame).

Do we get really twisted Daikaiju? Giant and terrible monsters?

If so that be awesome! I will snap it up in print for a friend and myself.

Quote from: D-503;394176Cold City:  Red Sun sounds awesome.

A guy in my group bought Hot War and was going to run it, but then sadly left the group and took the game with him.

A tragedy!

Any games likely to run at Dragonmeet or anything like that some time?  The cons always just seem to be 15 minute demos, which are a pet hate of mine (well, pet minor dislike, but that sounds kind of lame).

A tragedy indeed. It's a shame you didn't get a chance to play.

We haven't forumulated our plans for this years Dragonmeet yet. Running games very much depends on stall-manning. I'd very much like to run a short, two hour Hot War game, but that depends on how many people we have on the stall. If there's just a couple of us, then it means being tied to the traders hall for the whole day, sadly.

Quote from: SilverlionDo we get really twisted Daikaiju? Giant and terrible monsters?

I've been asked that before in regard to Red Sun and, to be honest, I've not fully come up with an answer yet. I'm leaning towards saying "No, but...", as the kind of gonzo mad science I envisage when thinking of Gojira and co doesn't jibe well with how I see Cold City. On the flipside, doing a supplement on post-war monster hunting in Japan would seem incomplete without addressing the issue in some way. My feeling at the moment is that the issue of daikaiju wouldn't be addressed in the main text, but in an appendix entitled something like "So You Want To Make Your Monsters Bigger?" that looks at bringing giant monster tropes into your games. Maybe that might work.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;394255"So You Want To Make Your Monsters Bigger?" that looks at bringing giant monster tropes into your games. Maybe that might work.

Cheers
Malcolm

Darn it..I'll take that but it makes sense for Japan in the era your talking. Post Atomic Bomb, plus Cthulhu esque monsters tend to be big, which might be one way to handle it. Gojira being a bit more mind bendingly strange after all could work.

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;394109Cold City: Red Sun

SHUT UP.

That's the best news I've heard all week. Dude, have you read David Peace? Tokyo: Year Zero is basically Cold City:Red Sun without the monsters. And Kurosawa's Stray Dog ... dude.

Seriously stoked!

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;394255We haven't forumulated our plans for this years Dragonmeet yet. Running games very much depends on stall-manning. I'd very much like to run a short, two hour Hot War game, but that depends on how many people we have on the stall.

I'm planning on running a full length Hot War game at Dragonmeet, if that helps.

From the "Are Storytelling Games RPG's?" thread, CRKreuger finally answers the questions I had originally asked on here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=394340&postcount=119) about Hot War, that no one else seemed very willing to answer straightly.

I will repeat what I said there: are there ANY Hot War fans who are going to come along and argue that the above DESCRIPTION of mechanics is inaccurate in the game?? I don't want to hear arguments about how this should really be considered an RPG, it ISN'T. The ONLY rational argument you can make here to save Hot War's status as an RPG is to state that CRKrueger got it wrong in terms of how the game actually works.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;394343From the "Are Storytelling Games RPG's?" thread, CRKreuger finally answers the questions I had originally asked on here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=394340&postcount=119) about Hot War, that no one else seemed very willing to answer straightly.

I will repeat what I said there: are there ANY Hot War fans who are going to come along and argue that the above DESCRIPTION of mechanics is inaccurate in the game?? I don't want to hear arguments about how this should really be considered an RPG, it ISN'T. The ONLY rational argument you can make here to save Hot War's status as an RPG is to state that CRKrueger got it wrong in terms of how the game actually works.

RPGPundit

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I have no interest in debating this point. You don't think Hot War is a roleplaying game. I do think Hot War is a roleplaying game. You have an exclusive definition of RPGs. I have an inclusive definition of RPGs. There's nothing to debate. We have different viewpoints, and that's fine with me.

And, as I've also said before, we're having a great, friendly thread here, regardless of where in the forum it sits.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;394278SHUT UP.

That's the best news I've heard all week. Dude, have you read David Peace? Tokyo: Year Zero is basically Cold City:Red Sun without the monsters. And Kurosawa's Stray Dog ... dude.

Seriously stoked!

Not read the book, but certainly familiar with the film! Glad you're excited by it. Hope the finished product lives up to expectations.

Quote from: Scott DorwardI'm planning on running a full length Hot War game at Dragonmeet, if that helps.

That's fantastic! One of these days I will get to play in a game of yours. Having heard so many good things, it's a crying shame I've never been able to actually take part.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: RPGPundit;394343From the "Are Storytelling Games RPG's?" thread, CRKreuger finally answers the questions I had originally asked on here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=394340&postcount=119) about Hot War, that no one else seemed very willing to answer straightly.

I will repeat what I said there: are there ANY Hot War fans who are going to come along and argue that the above DESCRIPTION of mechanics is inaccurate in the game?? I don't want to hear arguments about how this should really be considered an RPG, it ISN'T. The ONLY rational argument you can make here to save Hot War's status as an RPG is to state that CRKrueger got it wrong in terms of how the game actually works.

RPGPundit

Or that RPGs include games that work in the way CRKreuger describes, a point he has explicitly agreed with, threadcrapper.

Do look into David Peace, he's a great writer and has written two books set in immediate (46-48) postwar Tokyo. Absolutely harrowing. Somebody is adapting one of them (Occupied City, which I have not yet read) into a film.

It'll be interesting to see how you do the divided loyalties and multiple factions thing in Japan, whose occupiers were not as "diverse" as Germany's.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;394425Do look into David Peace, he's a great writer and has written two books set in immediate (46-48) postwar Tokyo. Absolutely harrowing. Somebody is adapting one of them (Occupied City, which I have not yet read) into a film.

It'll be interesting to see how you do the divided loyalties and multiple factions thing in Japan, whose occupiers were not as "diverse" as Germany's.

I'll certainly look out for those books. Thanks for the recommendation.

As regards the divided loyalties/multiple factions/national agendas, yes there will be quite a few differences between the situation in Red Sun and straight-up Cold City. The way I'm looking at it at the moment, given the nature of the occupation, it's going to be less about national agendas* and more about factional in-fighting. In this way, it would be similar to Hot War.

So, you'd have, for example, the MacArthurite faction within the occupying forces, a faction with great power and influence. But as is well known, MacArthur wasn't universally liked, so there might be factions within the American forces opposing him and his lickspittle coterie of senior officers. The USSR will obviously be implanting agents like crazy, agencies from back in the US will be keeping an eye on things, etc. There are lots of opportunities for exciting play!

That being said, it's something I've yet to sit down and sort out in any great detail. Sketches and scribbles are where its at at the moment!

Cheers
Malcolm

*In that the vast majority of the power lay with one nation.

Quote from: RPGPundit;394343From the "Are Storytelling Games RPG's?" thread, CRKreuger finally answers the questions I had originally asked on here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=394340&postcount=119) about Hot War, that no one else seemed very willing to answer straightly.

I will repeat what I said there: are there ANY Hot War fans who are going to come along and argue that the above DESCRIPTION of mechanics is inaccurate in the game?? I don't want to hear arguments about how this should really be considered an RPG, it ISN'T. The ONLY rational argument you can make here to save Hot War's status as an RPG is to state that CRKrueger got it wrong in terms of how the game actually works.

RPGPundit

Who are you to say whether the game, that you had no involvement in producing, is NOT an rpg? You play a role in it, ergo....

The mechanics may not be to your taste, and you are merely exposing your prejudice. Grow the fuck up.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;394478Who are you to say whether the game, that you had no involvement in producing, is NOT an rpg? You play a role in it, ergo....

The mechanics may not be to your taste, and you are merely exposing your prejudice. Grow the fuck up.

It's Pundy's forum, it's his call to make, regardless of how it appears to others. If you disagree with his position, ignore him, he's the best troll on these boards. Please, can we keep to discussing the Hot War awesome here.

Personally, I love both Hot War and Cold City, I like the way the character traits shape the story and how they work in play. Well done Malcolm. What else is in the pipeline?

Peace, Love and Wombats.
TrekkieKT

Quote from: TrekkieKT;394649It's Pundy's forum, it's his call to make, regardless of how it appears to others. If you disagree with his position, ignore him, he's the best troll on these boards. Please, can we keep to discussing the Hot War awesome here.

Personally, I love both Hot War and Cold City, I like the way the character traits shape the story and how they work in play. Well done Malcolm. What else is in the pipeline?

Peace, Love and Wombats.
TrekkieKT

I think that where does the Pundit put this discussion is irrelevant. If you use the "New posts" function, it will show you the thread regardless where is ubicated. So please, don't waste your time arguing with the Pundit about what is and what is not an RPG. These are his boards, so whatever he decides to be on topic is. And that's it. It's not a big deal.

Quote from: Imperator;394789I think that where does the Pundit put this discussion is irrelevant. If you use the "New posts" function, it will show you the thread regardless where is ubicated. So please, don't waste your time arguing with the Pundit about what is and what is not an RPG. These are his boards, so whatever he decides to be on topic is. And that's it. It's not a big deal.

Well, no. If you run a forum do so properly. If you, for what ever bizarre logic is at work here, want to marginalise certain games, then at the very least you need specific rules as to how games are going to be organised and an explicity set of forums to cater for them. Randomly deciding to stick rpg's in other games is not the way to go but at all. Hot War is made as an rpg, sold as an rpg and played as one...

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;394802Well, no. If you run a forum do so properly. If you, for what ever bizarre logic is at work here, want to marginalise certain games, then at the very least you need specific rules as to how games are going to be organised and an explicity set of forums to cater for them. Randomly deciding to stick rpg's in other games is not the way to go but at all. Hot War is made as an rpg, sold as an rpg and played as one...

However, it's not a Traditional RPG, it's a Narrative RPG, aka a Storygame.  If you read the descriptions of the forums as Pundit defines them, Hot War belongs in Other Games, which is any type of game other then Traditional RPG, which he obviously want's to be his focus.

Why doesn't he put WFRP3 or 4e here then?  If you want him to, make the case.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;394802Well, no. If you run a forum do so properly. If you, for what ever bizarre logic is at work here, want to marginalise certain games, then at the very least you need specific rules as to how games are going to be organised and an explicity set of forums to cater for them. Randomly deciding to stick rpg's in other games is not the way to go but at all. Hot War is made as an rpg, sold as an rpg and played as one...

If you run a forum you can do whatever the fuck you want to, as long as is a privately owned forum. The Pundit has the right to change the rules or whatever at random, because this is his place. Even if I disagree with him on this, which I do, I acknowledge that this is his place, and he has the right to change the rules every day if he sees it fit. If I get sick of it, I'll go somewhere else.

And again, seriously, is not such a big deal. Use the search for new posts function and it doesn't matter where the Pundit chooses to put the threads. Even if he creates a subforum called "Fucking crappy games that only a moron would play" you would be able to see them and take part on the discussions. And how the Pundit chooses to call things doesn't impact me in the least.

Malcolm, I haven't played - to what degree do you think the setting and situation are uniquely UK-oriented? With Cold City I felt the international angle was helpful to my players - the guy least familiar with the time and place played the American, and the guy who had a background in Russian played the MVD Colonel. Is a lack of familiarity with the UK going to present a problem?

When we played Graham Walmsley's A Taste For Murder, we really felt that there were a lot of cultural assumptions about behavior that we just didn't get, either because we weren't English in that case, or because none of us were familiar with the murder mysteries it draws from. The text offered no guidance in that case so we ended up winging it, and it felt off kilter. Would we have the same problem with Hot War?

Quote from: Scott Dorward;394317I'm planning on running a full length Hot War game at Dragonmeet, if that helps.

If I make it this year I'll definitely try and sign up for that.

Ghost Whistler, I saw that Star Trek episode for the first time on Saturday!  Cool avatar.

I did think the episode had some logical flaws:

"so far you've not commited any crimes" - well apart from stealing a space yacht and breaching Romulan space, no, I suppose not.

And the whole thing where the space hippies try to murder the entire crew in cold blood, which the crew then sort of forget afterwards while wishing the space hippies well, what the fuck?  There was a weird mix of Manson family vibe in that episode at times which I'm not sure was entirely intentional (or entirely unintentional, but when you try to murder hundreds of people you do kind of cross a line).

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;394820Would we have the same problem with Hot War?

While most of the people I've run Hot War for are British, a few haven't been, and I haven't noticed any problems with them getting to grip with the characters or background.  And while I'm of British parentage, I didn't actually settle in this country until adulthood, so I don't always have the same cultural touchstones as many people here; I've managed to cope OK with Hot War by being familiar with a lot of the media inspirations, reading a bit of history and hitting Wikipedia to fill in gaps.  It seems to have worked so far.

Also, there is the option to play expatriate Americans or mainland Europeans, if you want to use your lack of familiarity with London as a strength.

Quote from: TrekkieKT;394649Personally, I love both Hot War and Cold City, I like the way the character traits shape the story and how they work in play. Well done Malcolm. What else is in the pipeline?

Hey,

Thanks for the kind words about both games. Over this thread I've taked a little bit about future stuff for Hot War, Cold City, and other projects. For those such as yourself who are interested, this might be a good opportunity to round some of those up (and maybe introduce a few new things).

For Hot War, we've just launched the Hot War Transmission, our new quarterly mini-supplement. The first is dedicated to Nigel Kneale, the father of British SF/speculative TV fiction and a huge influence on Hot War (and Cold City, to be fair). The second issue (due out in October), will be themed around politics.

For Cold City, there's a couple of exciting things on the horizon for 2011. 'Monster of the Month' will run from January until December and will offer a free PDF download highlighting a new monster every month. It'll be presented in the form of an RPA report on the monster, and another sheet giving game stats, plot hooks, and so forth.

Then, there's the previously mentioned Cold City: Red Sun, which will allow you to transpose the action of Cold City to Tokyo in 1950. That promises to be pretty exciting, and there's been some great feedback and recommendations for source material in this very thread.

As for other projects, well, there are few on the go at the moment, all with vague release dates. Actually, there are no release dates at all, if I'm being honest.

Shipwreck! is something of a hyrbid RPG/boardgame (vaguely, kind of) all about creating shipwreck stories. The format will be a bit different to a lot of other games.

Okhrana is an ultra-ultra-niche game that uses variations on the Hot War mechanics. The setting is 1899 Paris and the characters are emigre radicals trying to forward their political manifestos and avoid the attentions of the authorities and, most of all, the Czarist secret police, the eponymous Okhrana. I did say it was a very, very niche product and I'm writing it because it's something that fascinates me and the only way I'll get a game about it is to write one myself!

Finally, the one that is closest to completion is Sunshine. Imagine if cyberpunk took place in 1975, with 1970s technology and an early to mid 70's design aesthetic. Well, that's Sunshine. We're planning on producing the game in full colour (but just as a little digest sized book). One thing that excites me (and it's something we did in part with Hot War) is that all of the setting information will come from in-game artefacts (posters, memos, adverts, flyers, etc) and from text in rules examples. Again, an ultra-niche game, but one that I'm really quite excited about.

So there you go! I should stop my rambling now.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;394820Malcolm, I haven't played - to what degree do you think the setting and situation are uniquely UK-oriented? With Cold City I felt the international angle was helpful to my players - the guy least familiar with the time and place played the American, and the guy who had a background in Russian played the MVD Colonel. Is a lack of familiarity with the UK going to present a problem?

When we played Graham Walmsley's A Taste For Murder, we really felt that there were a lot of cultural assumptions about behavior that we just didn't get, either because we weren't English in that case, or because none of us were familiar with the murder mysteries it draws from. The text offered no guidance in that case so we ended up winging it, and it felt off kilter. Would we have the same problem with Hot War?

Thanks for asking Jason, that's an excellent question and one that I don't doubt many people have asked themselves. I'll agree that Cold City provides the more immediate 'hook' for people and a broader range of experiences that people can draw on to get into the game.

It has always been my hope with Hot War that the way the game is presented would help people understand the setting and milleu in a way that gets past the "I know nothing about Britain in the 1960s!" gut reaction. The majority of the game development actually took place while I was living in New Zealand, with great success. Although, it must be admitted that there are strong cultural links between NZ and the UK that still exist.

It's been my experience that people unfamiliar with the time period actually do have more of a grasp than they thought: the archetypes of 'Swinging London', the Beatles, even Austin Powers movies. Even these little associations with British culture of the early 60s are often present and can help form the basis for understanding.

To flick back to your initial paragraph, there is a certain 'Britishness' about the game and its setting. It is very firmly rooted in the work of J G Ballard, John Wydham, TV series such as 'Quatermass and the Pit', and films such as 'The War Game' and 'Threads'. All of these present a British view of the apocalypse, horror, SF, and the nuclear threat. Yet, many of these basic ideas are touchstones that we are all familiar with.

In the end, I don't think lack of familiarity would be a barrier to enjoying the game. I certainly can't seen any more difficulty than coming new to Greyhawk or the Cthulhu Mythos, for example (although, I'll admit that those are both setting which are far more exansively detailed and in-depth that Hot War!). Each group would, and should, create their own vision of the UK in post-apocalypse 1963. If that's a vision coming from Sean Connery era 'James Bond' movies rather than the nuclear brutality of 'Threads' or the new-wave stylings of Ballard, then that's far from a problem. Things like the Player's Primer in the back of the book should, I hope, give a fictional framework that people can hang things on. But, it's not proscriptive.

I feel I've rambled a bit here. Does this in any way answer your question?

Quote from: Scott DorwardAlso, there is the option to play expatriate Americans or mainland Europeans, if you want to use your lack of familiarity with London as a strength.

That's a very good point. Even with the fictional framing of the Special Situations Group, it's eminently possible to play nationalities other than British. It's something that I plan on addressing even more fully in future issues of the Hot War Transmission.
 

Cheers
Malcolm

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

(I'm also sort of excited about Okhrana, but you'd probably predict that)

I must admit Malcolm, that is was The War Game and Threads that came to mind when looking at elements of the setting. Two of the most unnerving things I've seen - I wasn't even allowed to watch Threads after the first fifteen minutes when it was first broadcast but the Radio Times cover of an armed traffic warden intrigued me.

Anyway, whilst thinking about possible scenarios I remembered the following:

http://www.willys-mb.co.uk/rudloe.htm - Britain's Strategic Steam Reserve. I like the idea of a nuclear-powered sub but perhaps a group wants to acquire a number of well-maintained steam engines to avoid too much reliance?

Anyway, I don't think I should be thinking too deeply about this at the moment. Last night I managed to come up with a particularly unpleasant and vivid nighmare which consisted of finding myself on the outskirts of a nuclear attack and feeling the onset of radiation sickness. I ended up having to wake myself up. No more youtube vids for the moment.

Thanks for the PM by the way - it took me a while to notice I had one I'm afraid.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;394884(I'm also sort of excited about Okhrana, but you'd probably predict that)

Really? I am shocked to the core!

Quote from: Joshua FordI must admit Malcolm, that is was The War Game and Threads that came to mind when looking at elements of the setting. Two of the most unnerving things I've seen - I wasn't even allowed to watch Threads after the first fifteen minutes when it was first broadcast but the Radio Times cover of an armed traffic warden intrigued me.

My parents let me watch Threads back in 1984 (I was ten years old at the time) and it terrified the life out of me. I still find it (along with The War Game) one of the most genuinely horrifying films I've ever watched. And the traffic warden was the thing that stuck with me as well. It seems to fix itself into the mind.

Quote from: Joshua FordAnyway, whilst thinking about possible scenarios I remembered the following:

http://www.willys-mb.co.uk/rudloe.htm - Britain's Strategic Steam Reserve. I like the idea of a nuclear-powered sub but perhaps a group wants to acquire a number of well-maintained steam engines to avoid too much reliance?

Ah, the good old SSR! It's a great topic of discussion as to whether or not it ever actually existed in the manner believed by a lot of people. My own feeling is that yes, there were probably a few steam locos in storage, but that there was never a huge SSR of the kind claimed by some investigators. But, who cares? For the purposes of Hot War, the SSR is a great thing and I can totally see it coming into games in some way, shape or form.

The Army would certainly use a couple of steam engines to create armoured trains. Hell, with all the fuel running out, it would give them some form of mobile gunnery position and so forth. That would be kind of cool: an armoured train snaking its way round the London railways, with ragged children throwing rocks at it, CDA cells trying to blow it up. Maybe it drags a couple of box cars full of refugees or prisoners around as 'insurance'? Hmm, this has really inspired me! Must get writing!

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: D-503;394827If I make it this year I'll definitely try and sign up for that.

Ghost Whistler, I saw that Star Trek episode for the first time on Saturday!  Cool avatar.

I did think the episode had some logical flaws:

"so far you've not commited any crimes" - well apart from stealing a space yacht and breaching Romulan space, no, I suppose not.

And the whole thing where the space hippies try to murder the entire crew in cold blood, which the crew then sort of forget afterwards while wishing the space hippies well, what the fuck?  There was a weird mix of Manson family vibe in that episode at times which I'm not sure was entirely intentional (or entirely unintentional, but when you try to murder hundreds of people you do kind of cross a line).

well they weren't trying to murder the crew. That was Dr Severin who was insane.

Logical flaws are far from the worst parts of that episode :D

We reach.

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;395001armoured trains.

Poland invested heavily in armored trains between the wars. Their rolling stock was used in the east by the Germans (one was parked in Warsaw throughout the Rising, too). The Russians also had some. Plenty of inspiration there if you dig for it, Malcolm...

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;395080Poland invested heavily in armored trains between the wars. Their rolling stock was used in the east by the Germans (one was parked in Warsaw throughout the Rising, too). The Russians also had some. Plenty of inspiration there if you dig for it, Malcolm...

Amazingly, during WW2, there were armoured trains patrolling the railways near to where I live. I never knew that we had a train detachment up here (http://www.eastlothianatwar.co.uk/armouredtrain.html). And the crews were, for a time, at least partiallly made up of Poles.

For those who are interested in this, there's some more photos and stuff here (http://www.tankmuseum.ru/train4.html) some Soviet WW2 trains), here (http://www.andrewgrantham.co.uk/armoured-train-in-sarajevo) (the remains of an armoured rain in Sarajevo), here (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=19720) (film of an armoured train in Eire during the early 1920s), here (http://www.wio.ru/rr/ww1white.htm) (White Army trains from the Russian Civil War), here (http://www.wio.ru/rr/ww1red.htm) (Red Army trains from the Russian Civil War), and here (http://www.wio.ru/rr/ww2sov.htm) (more WW2 Soviet trains).

Cheers
Malcolm