This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

[Hot War] is awesome

Started by The Butcher, June 18, 2010, 02:15:49 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

dekaranger

Both of these rpgs sound really good to me.  Gonna have to pick up at least one of them soon if just to read.  Hopefully get one of the GMs here to run them as well, even if it's only a couple of one shots.
Playing: L5R  Defending the honor of the Crane.
Playing soon:  Hopefully L5R for a while.

Silverlion

My take on a first read:

It is an RPG, with a lot of story games influence. It has a lot of FATE like construction. My personal view is it looks like someone took Over the Edge and mated it with Fate aspects, and expanded aspects a bit.

Relationships are aspects, but a focused one that makes the thing a bit more personal as well.

Bad things: The example of play aspects seem to spend more time talking about the "game" side of things, than the actual "I am here in the characters head" style aspect of things. I prefer the latter not the former. Discussing mechanics of play--during play---is something I dislike beyond "roll/response." It is one of my problems with how some people play aspects--they don't drop them into the narrative/character viewpoint in some way. Of course that tends to make play a bit melodramatic, but most RPG's are a little in play anyway.  (Bad Aspects for me: I tag my "trained by the master swordsman Alejandro Santos!" Good: "Ha, you think you can best me, I was trained by Alejandro Santos!"  (hand the GM a physical token or say "tag" simply and move on.)

I like it. One of my playgroups its entirely out. It just isn't there thing. The other group, might, they prefer fantasy though, lately.

We'll see. I'm always willing to try something before deciding it doesn't work.
High Valor REVISED: A fantasy Dark Age RPG. Available NOW!
Hearts & Souls 2E Coming in 2019

Malcolm Craig

Quote from: RPGPundit;390779Well, we'll see. You've reacted very well, to your credit. And if you do end up sending a review copy as you promised/threatened/offered, that will be the best way to judge. If I read the rules, and see for myself, there'll be no debate one way or the other. And of course, if my conclusion is that Hot War is an RPG, this thread will go back to the main forum.

Let me make myself clear: I'm really not bothered in which forum sub-section of the RPGsite a discussion on Hot War sits. It's just not a big issue for me. I have an inclusive view of RPGs which encompasses 'story games'. You have an exclusive view of RPGs which excludes 'story games'. That's it. There's no big debate here, neither of us are trying to (or able to) change the mind of the other. So it's a moot point.

I do find it hilarious, though, that I'm part of a movement trying to subvert RPGs. Do I get a t-shirt or something? Is there a handshake?

Oh! Here's more grist for your suspicion mill, Pundit: my character in our ongoing D&D 3.5 game is a gnome rogue called 'Big Dave' Buckfast. Gnomes!

Quote from: Jason MorningstarMalcolm, I'm curious, how do you think the more expansive setting of Hot War influences play? Cold City is tightly focused and sort of claustrophobic (in a good way), but Hot War seems like it could go in a lot of different directions in both theme and scope. Based on what you've seen people do with the two games, are you happy with the choice to open the setting up? Is there any dissonance from players moving from one to the other?

One thing I've noticed is that, because of the way the game is set up and particularly because of the focus on trust, the stories are almost entirely focused on the characters. In Hot War, where things are more, and relationships take the place of trust, the focus is still on the characters, but we see a much more important light shone on NPCs in the game, particularly those whom the characters have relationships with.

Based on my experiences, yes, I'm delighted with the way both games have played out. The setting of Hot War is much more open to doing things that don't involve the Special Situations Group. For example, Scott Dorward (who produced some great situations and characters for convention play) has ran a game called 'Kitchen Sink Drama' several times with great success. It's a family drama about people surviving in the devastated London of Hot War. Quite a remove from the standard setup. But workable and worthwhile.

Moving from one game o the other, I think it's a change in experiences and focus for a group, but not a jarring one.

Quote from: Joshua FordRight, just to add to the party (now that the World Cup is a past event for the England team):

- Cold City: I suspect it would be my preferred choice for an rpg setting. Perhaps it's the setting and the other media I've watched or read. Maybe it's my visit to Berlin last summer too - I'm planning on going back this year.

- Hot War: I got a convention skirmish game vibe from this. The secret agendas made think of a number of games with hidden motives. It reminded me too of a 90s British rpg mag with a Dr Who scenario where John Wayne and Ronald Reagan had swithed places and London was nuked. Perhaps it's a bit too bleak for me, although it would be up to the GM to make it less so, or at least offer some hope. That's a personal thing for me though.

Heh, yes, it is a somewhat bleak setting! For many people (such as yourself) it certainly seems that Berlin during the Cold War is a much more powerful cultural touchstone. Perhaps more recent films like the Good German have also help reinforce this. Still, I do find that people often have a favourite between the two and I'm glad that you found things to like in both books.

Thanks for your kind comments and I do hope that you get some fun play out of both games.

Quote from: SilverlionBad things: The example of play aspects seem to spend more time talking about the "game" side of things, than the actual "I am here in the characters head" style aspect of things. I prefer the latter not the former. Discussing mechanics of play--during play---is something I dislike beyond "roll/response." It is one of my problems with how some people play aspects--they don't drop them into the narrative/character viewpoint in some way. Of course that tends to make play a bit melodramatic, but most RPG's are a little in play anyway. (Bad Aspects for me: I tag my "trained by the master swordsman Alejandro Santos!" Good: "Ha, you think you can best me, I was trained by Alejandro Santos!" (hand the GM a physical token or say "tag" simply and move on.)

That's a fair point, yes. I like to use the example of play to illustrate how the mechanics are used during play and a detailed and useable way. A matter of personal preference, I agree. Some groups just might not mesh with the way the game works. And that's fine. I do hope that if you end up playing, it doesn't turn out to be an entirely wasted experience for you.

Cheers
Malcolm
Malcolm Craig - Contested Ground Studios
Hot War, available now! You can also buy the PDF from DTRPG.
Cold City v1.1 - available now!  
Find our stuff on Indie Press Revolution and The Collective Endeavour
Keep up to date with our news on Facebook and Twitter

Roger Calver

Quote from: RPGPundit;390776Storygames aren't RPGs.

RPGPundit

OK I'll bite as well.

What gives you the right to decide that your view of what is or not a RPG is correct ?
Thats break this down to its very core here, what is a RPG ?
Take away the rules/system/mechanics and whats left in any RPG ?, well that to me is simple a "story" and a story that is told by the interactions of both the GM and players.
You can take a game and play the session as a adhoc LRP and I have done so myself.

Rog.
Currently doing nothing.

Malcolm Craig

Quote from: Roger Calver;390709I have just finished reading the setting parts of the book and must say Im very impressed by it.
Knowing London very well myself the thought of it as a damaged and fearsome place full of evil both human and inhuman is just perfect for a dark change of pace to my games.
The details in what to read or watch to add to the atmosphere of the setting really helps as well.
Ive not read the system parts as yet and so cant comment on them but IMHO the setting makes the game a buy anyway.
Im also reading Charles Stross's The Atrocity Archives and as noted in the Hot War book the two work hand in hand as to style.

I dont care where this thread lives its IMHO one hell of a game thats for sure, well done Malcolm :)

Ah, how remiss. You last post reminded me that I hadn't responded to this one. Sorry about that.

I'm always relieved when people who have an in-depth knowledge of London find that the setting resonates with them. I'm glad you've found the mediography in the back of the book useful as well. It's the kind of thing that I really like to see in a game book, as it gives me a great idea of where the author is coming from and what their influences were. If there are two things that section that people playing Hot War should try to watch, it would be 'The War Game' and 'Threads'. Admittedly, two of the most grim pieces of cinema ever to come out of the UK, but compelling viewing.

Cheers
Malcolm
Malcolm Craig - Contested Ground Studios
Hot War, available now! You can also buy the PDF from DTRPG.
Cold City v1.1 - available now!  
Find our stuff on Indie Press Revolution and The Collective Endeavour
Keep up to date with our news on Facebook and Twitter

Roger Calver

It the part about a war torn London that pinged my interest in the game in the first place.
Anyone who has walked the streets or used the Tube of London could very easily see both as a twisted vision of Hot War, the Tube can be a dark place if you have ever got the last train at night in the real world and add in monsters etc its even more stark.
The images in the game in particular the damaged Tower bridge etc show this to maximum effect.

Again IMHO a setting that is both vivid and disturbing.

Rog.
Currently doing nothing.

Silverlion

Quote from: Malcolm Craig;390847L

That's a fair point, yes. I like to use the example of play to illustrate how the mechanics are used during play and a detailed and useable way. A matter of personal preference, I agree. Some groups just might not mesh with the way the game works. And that's fine. I do hope that if you end up playing, it doesn't turn out to be an entirely wasted experience for you.

Cheers
Malcolm


No worries. I hope I get the chance to play. I try almost every game I own eventually. Some rock, some don't.  Don't get me wrong--I like 95% of what I read. I can't say that for most "story games" if it is labeled one, but I'm not much for labels. I know some games work for me, some don't, no matter what we call them--board game, RPG's, story games.

I've a friend who loves Horror games, and I think if I focus on the subtle horror aspect of play, he'd eat it up. Especially with the zombies that are suggested in it.



By the way I love the Living Steel Reference I hadn't thought of that game in a long long time.
High Valor REVISED: A fantasy Dark Age RPG. Available NOW!
Hearts & Souls 2E Coming in 2019

Malcolm Craig

Quote from: Roger Calver;390851It the part about a war torn London that pinged my interest in the game in the first place.
Anyone who has walked the streets or used the Tube of London could very easily see both as a twisted vision of Hot War, the Tube can be a dark place if you have ever got the last train at night in the real world and add in monsters etc its even more stark.
The images in the game in particular the damaged Tower bridge etc show this to maximum effect.

Again IMHO a setting that is both vivid and disturbing.

You're so right. The Underground is a fascinating and remarkable environment. If you haven't read it, I'd heartily recommend The Subterranean Railway by Christian Wolmar. It's an excellent account of the history, social, and cultural impact of the Underground. An excellent read.

Quote from: SilverlionBy the way I love the Living Steel Reference I hadn't thought of that game in a long long time.

Hah, I'm glad someone noticed that! Living Steel is one of those games that I'm incredibly conflicted about. On one had, I found the setting absorbing. On the other hand, the mechanics gave me nosebleeds.

Cheers
Malcolm
Malcolm Craig - Contested Ground Studios
Hot War, available now! You can also buy the PDF from DTRPG.
Cold City v1.1 - available now!  
Find our stuff on Indie Press Revolution and The Collective Endeavour
Keep up to date with our news on Facebook and Twitter

Ghost Whistler

Quote from: RPGPundit;390778Speaking not specifically of Hot War here, but of Storygames; there is a big difference between RPG.net's case and this.
In RPG.net's case, they took the single most popular RPG, and put it in a ghetto apart from everything else.
In my case, I'm taking a movement of games that are not in fact RPGs but are trying to subvert that term, and putting them in their proper place.

The difference would be akin to a forum about comics on the one hand excluding all DC comics into their own ghetto and forbidding talk about them in the "main" comics forum; and on the other hand if a forum about comics excluded conversation about the Twilight books into a non-comics forum.

RPGPundit
Let's cut the bollocks.

You're being stupid.

The first place visitors to this site (who are the only people that might be interested in coming here to find out what peopel here think or know about Hot War) are going to look is the RPG Forum, not Other Games. You are defeating the point of having this site by behaving like this and you are behaving worse than any of the twats who make policy on rpg.net. Grow up ffs.

You might no like story games and Hot War may be better described as a story game, but it is still an rpg.
"Ghost Whistler" is rated PG-13 (Parents strongly cautioned). Parental death, alien battles and annihilated worlds.

Ghost Whistler

Quote from: RPGPundit;390779Well, we'll see. You've reacted very well, to your credit. And if you do end up sending a review copy as you promised/threatened/offered, that will be the best way to judge. If I read the rules, and see for myself, there'll be no debate one way or the other. And of course, if my conclusion is that Hot War is an RPG, this thread will go back to the main forum.

RPGPundit

Why on earth don't you give the game the benefit of the doubt? How would you feel if someone did this to your game? It's just petulance.
"Ghost Whistler" is rated PG-13 (Parents strongly cautioned). Parental death, alien battles and annihilated worlds.

Roger Calver

This is the thread title for the RPG sectionof this board.

"Roleplaying Games (RPGs)
For discussion of traditional pen-and-paper roleplaying games and anything related to their game mechanics and settings, as well as industry events and gossip
."

So as Hot War has a setting and mechanics how or why isnt it in the RPG section ?
It is also a tradition pen-and-paper RPG, you have dice to roll and paper to write on for PC's, NPC's etc.
So by your own thread titles it MUST be included or you are just picking your own battles at the expense of the forum and its memership.

Rog.
Currently doing nothing.

Silverlion

Quote from: Roger Calver;390903This is the thread title for the RPG sectionof this board.

"Roleplaying Games (RPGs)
For discussion of traditional pen-and-paper roleplaying games and anything related to their game mechanics and settings, as well as industry events and gossip
."

So as Hot War has a setting and mechanics how or why isnt it in the RPG section ?
Rog.



Mostly because of the Story Games aspects in it--Pundit doesn't like them at all, and doesn't feel they're RPG's, I've not seen many I think are RPGs clearly enough to disagree for the most part. Although Hot War does look far more traditional than most of them. (Strangely enough so is Burning Wheel, which I don't like at all.)
High Valor REVISED: A fantasy Dark Age RPG. Available NOW!
Hearts & Souls 2E Coming in 2019

Roger Calver

So if a poll was cast asking where Hot War should be would Pundit move or leave it based on the results ?
In other words is this forum a Democracy or a dictatorship ?
Currently doing nothing.

Roger Calver

Actually to get this thread backto the OP can I ask an admin to split this into two seperate threads please ?
Currently doing nothing.

Peregrin

Quote from: Silverlion;390937(Strangely enough so is Burning Wheel, which I don't like at all.)

Well Burning Wheel was originally influenced by AD&D 1e (which Crane played through the 90s) and Shadowrun, so it's first iteration was very traditional.  The revised edition is where he mixes Forge ideas with the BW design.  BW Classic was not influenced by the Forge at all, AFAIK.

However, Beliefs, Instincts, Traits, etc., were all there before the Forge, as was the proclamation that the game was about making stories.

Anywho, to get back on topic, just got my PDFs, and I like what I'm reading so far.  Very evocative settings (especially so because of the time periods chosen), and the mechanics seem nifty (though I'll reserve final judgment till I can force my group to sit down and play a few sessions ;)).

The 'Zone of Alienation' definitely reminds me of Roadside Picnic/Stalker/Shadow of Chernobyl, just in England instead of Ukraine.
"In a way, the Lands of Dream are far more brutal than the worlds of most mainstream games. All of the games set there have a bittersweetness that I find much harder to take than the ridiculous adolescent posturing of so-called \'grittily realistic\' games. So maybe one reason I like them as a setting is because they are far more like the real world: colourful, crazy, full of strange creatures and people, eternal and yet changing, deeply beautiful and sometimes profoundly bitter."