So for those that are unawares, Harmony Gold (the "creators" of Robotech), sued FASA over BattleTech in the early '90s. It was eventually settled, and everyone went on their merry way.
Warner Bros. announced several months ago that they will be making a live-action Robotech film. In fact, they named a director (Andy Muschietti) last week (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/robotech-movie-director-andy-muschietti-direct-1021744). Not so coincidentally, Harmony Gold is now suing Catalyst Game Labs, Piranha Games, and Harebrained Schemes over BattleTech again. Pretty much for the same reason as the first time. They allege that many of the mech designs were outright stolen from Robotech.
First document pertaining to the lawsuit can be found here (https://dockets.justia.com/docket/washington/wawdce/2:2017cv00327/242820). The second document can be found here (https://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/wawd/242820/38-0.html).
This could potentially get ugly.
It really is the '90s all over again.
It reads better if you -slightly- tweak the capitalization.
"The harebrained Defendants admit harebrained schemes"
That said... it does bring up just how difficult it can seem at times to create 100% original designs for mechs these days. But once you get down to #28, it looks like Harmony Gold is flat out in the wrong. 33 and 34 may have more merit though, but I can also see a judge saying the new designs are sufficiently distinct.
Can't look at the doc right now, but many of the original BT mech designs were indeed identical to those from Macross (the anime that was spliced into the first 1/3 of RT) because plastic model kits from Macross were being imported through several channels. I don't remember if it was a case of the BT creators being unaware of the cartoon when they came across the models and figuring nobody would care about the IP, or someone selling them the rights who didn't actually have them to sell. But for a while it seemed BT had dropped those designs and that was that. Did they start using them again, or designs closely based on them?
I liked the Robotech cartoon (part 1, anyway), but I can't say I really care if there is ever a live-action movie as it most likely will suck as most cartoon-to-live-action adaptations do. I'd be curious to know why they chose Andy aka Andrés Muschietti as he has hardly any credits I could locate. Harmony Gold probably smells money in the form of a quick settlement.
Quote from: Arminius;977859Did they start using them again, or designs closely based on them?
Depends on who you ask. ;)
Quote from: Dumarest;977865Harmony Gold probably smells money in the form of a quick settlement.
Given the amounts raised by KS and the other games sold by Catalyst, I think Harmony Gold is in for a disappointing offer.
I wonder how much this is about Harmony Gold showing it hasn't abandoned its IP by going after someone they -claim- is infringing on it. I forget the term, but there's a concept that if you don't pursue challenges to your IP then your IP isn't really yours. Now, when WB goes out and makes a bunch of toys and posters and such for the movie, Harmony Gold can rightly point out that they take their IP seriously and WB damn well better pay up!
Or not.
Quote from: san dee jota;977869I forget the term, but there's a concept that if you don't pursue challenges to your IP then your IP isn't really yours.
You probably mean
laches or
abandonment, depending on the situation. Part of why companies like Disney pretty much have to send a C&D to a nursery school using their characters or names unless they want to give up ownership by setting a precedent. The other option is to license it for $1 or other nominal amount so you have a contract proving you still assert ownership but giving the licensee a break.
Quote from: san dee jota;977869Now, when WB goes out and makes a bunch of toys and posters and such for the movie, Harmony Gold can rightly point out that they take their IP seriously and WB damn well better pay up!
That's the money whose stink I was thinking they may have smelt.
Quote from: Celestial;977784The second document can be found here (https://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/wawd/242820/38-0.html).
This is glorious! It's like seeing two lawyers argue about who would win in a fight between the Enterprise and a Star Destroyer. :D
Quote from: san dee jota;977825It reads better if you -slightly- tweak the capitalization.
"The harebrained Defendants admit harebrained schemes"
That said... it does bring up just how difficult it can seem at times to create 100% original designs for mechs these days. But once you get down to #28, it looks like Harmony Gold is flat out in the wrong. 33 and 34 may have more merit though, but I can also see a judge saying the new designs are sufficiently distinct.
Most of them are pretty clear, in that they are redesigns (probably in a line of redesigns) of the Unseen mechs.
Pg 18-19 compares a Raven(?) to a Glaug, an Atlas to an Armored Valkyrie, and a Hunchback to an Archer. These are AFAIK original FASA designs.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;977961Most of them are pretty clear, in that they are redesigns (probably in a line of redesigns) of the Unseen mechs.
Pg 18-19 compares a Raven(?) to a Glaug, an Atlas to an Armored Valkyrie, and a Hunchback to an Archer. These are AFAIK original FASA designs.
You see this, and I see this, but will a judge see this? I'm not saying judges are inherently stupid or indifferent to a case regarding robot games, but to a real extent Harmony Gold just has to convince the court these are derivatives of their designs. And like I said earlier, 100% original mech designs are pretty hard to create anymore without somebody already having done so. If Harmony Gold teamed up with Palladium Books ("why yes your honor, Palladium -does- have a license to use our designs and derivatives based on them"), it -could- get very scary for the Battletech publishers.
Harmony Gold needs to give up. Robotech is dead. The live-action film is unlikely to get finished, and if it does it will flop; Macross is superior in all ways, and that includes both the size and scope of its fandom (and audience). If Harebrained Schemes had a clue, they'll call up Bandai or Sunrise to see if they could get an assist on their behalf.
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Bradford, back around 2004-2005 it seemed there was a lot of legal ferment over the Macross-Robotech rights; as a Macross purist and partisan I did the best I could to follow along and I thought that Harmony Gold was overstepping in trying to keep new Macross toys/cartoons out of the US. The parties were a little different--I think HG and Tatsunoko were on one side while Studio Nue/Big West were eventually backed by Bandai. Bandai's presence seemed like it should be a huge difference-maker but for some reason HG "won", or at least got the deal they needed to keep doing what they do.
Upshot is that either HG had a better case than I thought or Bandai doesn't see Macross as something worth fighting for. In Japan, they do Macross, but here they seem content to do Gundam and let HG do RT.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;978191You're thinking of trademarks, which have no bearing in this case.
Failure to enforce, protect, and defend IP doesn't just apply to trademarks.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;978170Harmony Gold needs to give up. Robotech is dead. The live-action film is unlikely to get finished, and if it does it will flop; Macross is superior in all ways, and that includes both the size and scope of its fandom (and audience). If Harebrained Schemes had a clue, they'll call up Bandai or Sunrise to see if they could get an assist on their behalf.
I'm confident Hollywood will find a way to make a live-action
Robotech that sucks so badly that it kills the franchise for a generation.
Haven't seen
Macross, though , what is superior about it?
The original Macross is basically the same as "The Macross Saga" in Robotech. It's definitely got better music--the Minmay songs are catchy rather than annoying, and the incidental music is at least a little better. I don't know what the Japanese voice acting sounds like to a native, but to me it has more character and sounds more mature. The script also doesn't have as much heavy-handed narration. For the most part, it's little things like that which make it better, but there's also the fact that it isn't cut up--IIRC Robotech spliced in bits of Southern Cross to create continuity.
Honestly, I think the overall arc of Robotech is a good epic concept, but the individual cartoons (including Mospeada) are better on their own in their original forms.* And the Macross Movie and sequels (except Macross II, which is non-canonical and boring) are each really good even if they don't form a grand arc. I'd especially point to Macross Plus and Macross Zero.
*Plus there's Orguss which wasn't used as part of Robotech but had many of the same creative crew as Macross & Southern Cross, and is quite cool in its own right.
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Quote from: Arminius;977859Can't look at the doc right now, but many of the original BT mech designs were indeed identical to those from Macross (the anime that was spliced into the first 1/3 of RT) because plastic model kits from Macross were being imported through several channels. I don't remember if it was a case of the BT creators being unaware of the cartoon when they came across the models and figuring nobody would care about the IP, or someone selling them the rights who didn't actually have them to sell. But for a while it seemed BT had dropped those designs and that was that. Did they start using them again, or designs closely based on them?
Thats because FASA had the rights to use the mechs from Macross and Dougram. Mostly Dougram.
The problem was that the licensing was contested. AND George Lucas went after then for originally calling it BattleDroids because obviously George invented the term Droid and owns the shortening of the word android. Yeah right.
Palladium had a similar problem with Macross Plus as the whole series wasnt exactly on solid legal footing.
But the idea of HG going after the movie BT or anything else is just plain greed. The movie mechs likely wont look a thing like the ones in the game and the current BT designs dont look like the Macross units anymore. Or at least didnt last I saw them.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;978299It's pretty clear that Bandai signed an absolutely terrible licensing deal back in the '80s with Harmony Gold when anime was worth basically nothing in America. (To be fair, Harmony Gold played a significant role in make anime worth something in America.)
This happened alot. Takara ended up stonewalled by Mego for decades after signing off all the US rights to Microman except for the Change-man and Diaclone lines that became Transformers. Long after Mego was DOA the creator of the company was ruthlessly hanging onto the US license to blockate Takara from ever selling Microman in the US. That went on to 2010 or so.
TSR did the same with Solomon giving him exclusive rights to make D&D movies and hes blockaded them since unless hes involved or gets a cut. Apparently that means no cartoons either.
Watch your damn contracts.
I may be mistaken, but I don't think Bandai was involved with licensing Macross to HG back in the '80s. The cartoon rights contract was between Tatsunoko and HG.
Bandai did make some Macross toys and models back in the '80s. I'm not sure if any of those were imported by TCI, or by Revell in their short-lived "Robotech" model line. But it seemed to me when I was following this stuff that Bandai only became involved legally in the 2000s
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[video=youtube_share;XoMs6iYXyng]https://youtu.be/XoMs6iYXyng[/youtube]
Quote from: Ras Algethi;996404<< VIDEO >>
Wow, thanks Ras Algethi - that was both more interesting and more informative than I expected when I clicked on the video. Although I have to say, my take away at the moment is that Palladium needs to get Robotech Tactics out soon, because it sounds like in less than four years their sub-license will end.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;978299Look, I get that you go into virtually every thread on this site, proclaim your ignorance, and then spout off nonsense. But you should know that it makes you look like an idiot.
It's pretty clear that Bandai signed an absolutely terrible licensing deal back in the '80s with Harmony Gold when anime was worth basically nothing in America. (To be fair, Harmony Gold played a significant role in make anime worth something in America.)
You're hilarious. You go into every thread and pronounce your omniscience and then fail to demonstrate basic knowledge. You know shit about the law, that much is obvious. Go study up and come back for your slice of humble pie, moron.
Following since this has been a topic of interest to me for a decade or few.
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
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Quote from: Dumarest;997193You're hilarious. You go into every thread and pronounce your omniscience and then fail to demonstrate basic knowledge. You know shit about the law, that much is obvious. Go study up and come back for your slice of humble pie, moron.
Well, to be honest, you do go into every thread and post something. Sometimes it's interesting, and more often it's shit. Although I do have to credit you for your icon there - it's exactly the kind of shit eating grin I imagine you wearing when you post those things.
(And yes, I'm shitting in the thread too. This is a reminder of my "Every user is a troll" theory of rpgsite.)
Quote from: jcfiala;997374Well, to be honest, you do go into every thread and post something. Sometimes it's interesting, and more often it's shit. Although I do have to credit you for your icon there - it's exactly the kind of shit eating grin I imagine you wearing when you post those things.
(And yes, I'm shitting in the thread too. This is a reminder of my "Every user is a troll" theory of rpgsite.)
Any chance you plan on posting the full thesis? It could make for some interesting reading.
Quote from: kosmos1214;997391Any chance you plan on posting the full thesis? It could make for some interesting reading.
I could, but by leaving you unsatisfied, I'm a more successful troll.
Quote from: Arminius;978278I'd especially point to Macross Plus and Macross Zero.
In spite of a bit of BEM alien cheese, Macross Frontier is pretty damn astounding.