TheRPGSite

To be honest I really don't buy much of their games, but when they do something right they do something right.  They recently made a card game that makes fun of the social justice warrior crowd and frankly some one needed to poke fun in them.

Here is the link to that card game (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/130012/Privilege-Check-Or-An-Egregious-Example-of-the-Tone-Deaf-Silencing-Humour-of-the-Heteropatriarchal-White-Oppressor-Class).

Quote from: Snowman0147;750645To be honest I really don't buy much of their games, but when they do something right they do something right.  They recently made a card game that makes fun of the social justice warrior crowd and frankly some one needed to poke fun in them.

Here is the link to that card game (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/130012/Privilege-Check-Or-An-Egregious-Example-of-the-Tone-Deaf-Silencing-Humour-of-the-Heteropatriarchal-White-Oppressor-Class).

That 1 star rating they're gonna get from all the SJWs is gonna sting a bit, since it affects their overall publisher rating.

There's a whoooole big thread about this at RPG.net...

I think they don't care.  Other wise they would had never made it in the first place.  It is also about time we have see a game company that shows it has enough of this bullshit.

Look when it comes to real cases of civil rights sign me up for it.  I will help, vote, and try my best to improve the quality of life for other people.  For all the things social justice warriors bitch about, however, is complete bullshit that deserves no support.

While they are bitching about dragon crown boobs people in Texas were trying to resist its congress from destroying clinics that allow abortion.  They bitch about something is 100% fake and not even real while very real things are being done without them doing any thing about it.

Quote from: Simon Owen;750670There's a whoooole big thread about this at RPG.net...

good for them.

Quote from: Simon Owen;750670There's a whoooole big thread about this at RPG.net...

Of course there is.

There are people lining up to be in the line to say how awful it and he is.

I gotta say, it looks fucking dreadful as a product, irrespective of all the sanctimony surrounding it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;750672I think they don't care.  Other wise they would had never made it in the first place.  It is also about time we have see a game company that shows it has enough of this bullshit.

Look when it comes to real cases of civil rights sign me up for it.  I will help, vote, and try my best to improve the quality of life for other people.  For all the things social justice warriors bitch about, however, is complete bullshit that deserves no support.

While they are bitching about dragon crown boobs people in Texas were trying to resist its congress from destroying clinics that allow abortion.  They bitch about something is 100% fake and not even real while very real things are being done without them doing any thing about it.

On a related issue, I have been a member of the local PRIDE group here in Portland for nearly 10 years now.  The "Portlandpack" of TBP is actually pretty sizeable; at least 20 or so people who are or were vocal posters at some point.

Do you know how many of these people, who were very vocal about their outrage on TBP about oppression, I saw at a PRIDE event?  Less than half.  And most of those who did go don't even post there hardly anymore (Blackberry, Misha, Pat and Jen Y, etc).

There is no such thing as bad publicity ...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;750675On a related issue, I have been a member of the local PRIDE group here in Portland for nearly 10 years now.  The "Portlandpack" of TBP is actually pretty sizeable; at least 20 or so people who are or were vocal posters at some point.

Do you know how many of these people, who were very vocal about their outrage on TBP about oppression, I saw at a PRIDE event?  Less than half.  And most of those who did go don't even post there hardly anymore (Blackberry, Misha, Pat and Jen Y, etc).

Can you give me more detail please?  I think PRIDE is for gay, lesbians, and other people with different sexuality than straight people.  What is TBP though?  Also who are all those people you just named.

TBP = The Big Purple , or the RPG.net site.

Quote from: Snowman0147;750702Can you give me more detail please?  I think PRIDE is for gay, lesbians, and other people with different sexuality than straight people.  What is TBP though?  Also who are all those people you just named.

Well, PRIDE is pretty much for GLBT rights, but you don't have to be GLBT to be a member.  You just need to be supportive of equal rights is all.  And those people I mentioned were people from Portland who were part of the Portlandpack who also did more to support equal rights than bitch on a computer, but haven't really posted on TBP at all in years.  Only an occassional post here and there.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that an awful lot of people in my area that like the wave the SJW banner I haven't seen actually putting their money where their mouth is, so to speak.  As a straight white guy, I think I've done more for real life causes than most of those people.

Now that makes more sense.  Okay thank both for clearly that up for me.

In other words as much as those social justice warriors love the scream and shout the fact is they are hardly there to begin with.

That thread is basically a personal attack on JD. A few people were booted for personal attacks, but the whole thread should be closed as one. Also, it belongs in another area as the product discussed is not an RPG. "I wanted the world to see what this person is really made of" is generally not used in a positive sense...


P.S. The product does look terrible, offensive and poorly done. However, that doesn't excuse TBP from breaking its own rules.

I never said the product was good.  Hell I will never buy it because I know for a fact it looks like shit.  As for offensive?  Yeah that is postmortem thing.  They always make offensive content so this isn't new.  This is perhaps their least offensive content to be honest.

The only reason I brought it up is because it targets on social justice warriors who are pretty much the new type of internet troll.  It is just refreshing to see a company go after them instead of bending over backwards to meet their demands.  Then get bitch at by the social justice warrior crowd even after bending over backwards.

It looks simple, I don't know about 'shit'. I don't have as much time for side projects, or as much spare money for them, so had to so everything myself. The system is surprisingly deep in terms of gameplay really.

Quote from: GRIM;750754It looks simple, I don't know about 'shit'. I don't have as much time for side projects, or as much spare money for them, so had to so everything myself. The system is surprisingly deep in terms of gameplay really.

Have you read the thread on RPG.net James ? If so , what do you think of it ? I'm guessing most people over there haven't played the game and so are critical of the subject matter rather than the gameplay mechanics.

Quote from: GRIM;750754It looks simple, I don't know about 'shit'. I don't have as much time for side projects, or as much spare money for them, so had to so everything myself. The system is surprisingly deep in terms of gameplay really.

The Great Satan speaks! :D

Quote from: GRIM;750754It looks simple, I don't know about 'shit'. I don't have as much time for side projects, or as much spare money for them, so had to so everything myself. The system is surprisingly deep in terms of gameplay really.

What goes on in your head?

I can see no version of this that ends well for anyone.

I think we can safely say that what you call satire is anything but, and i'm even willing to put that down to you being shit at it, rather than the motives being ascribed to you, but what a waste of...i dunno, energy? Words? Life?

I'm really not familiar with being on the side of this argument that defends this sort of stuff. I hate it all - sure i recognise your right to produce it, but that's no free-pass from criticism.

Maybe i'm being naive in thinking that you're just pissed off with having to defend writing 'he' instead of 'she' and having stuff in gaming that doesn't appeal to bronies, but this? It's just a crass attention grab.

Do some research on satire, mate, if you want to keep treading those boards.

Admit it though, "These cards can also be used to create random Tumblr profiles." was pretty funny.

I looked up a definition of satire on the Internet and it came back with this :

" The use of humour, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues. "

The question is : are ' social justice warriors ' a worthy target of satire ? ( whether it's good , bad , effective or non-effective satire is a relative judgment ).  If they are , then how do you attack them without being offensive and crass since they have taken up a moral high ground that can't be assailed without making their attacker look prejudiced and mean spirited ?

I don't know what the answer is but I feel uneasy about the kneejerk reaction thats going on ' over there ' and the fact that there seems to be a virtual lynch mob forming over this issue.

Quote from: Simon Owen;750829there seems to be a virtual lynch mob forming over this issue.

That's what they do.  I can envision a movement to boycott Chronicle City until they agree to never speak to him again.  Maybe we'll get another youtube performance, My Way wasn't half bad.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;750650That 1 star rating they're gonna get from all the SJWs is gonna sting a bit, since it affects their overall publisher rating.

If only there were some way that he could have not released an intentionally shoddy product, designed purely to upset purely.

(And that's not a "this shouldn't exist" statement, he can release whatever he likes, just as everyone else can buy it or not as they like. But that doesn't absolve him from criticism or comment, and it doesn't mean people can't judge him for his actions or his company for their releases. You can't claim free speech and then complain about people using that against you.)

If you want to solve the problem of users reviewing things based off kneejerk impulses rather than actual experience with the product, fine, that's a conversation with value, but I'm not going to go to that discussion over this. As it is, someone has evidently bought it, in order to leave what reviews there are.

Quote from: CRKrueger;750840That's what they do.  I can envision a movement to boycott Chronicle City until they agree to never speak to him again.  Maybe we'll get another youtube performance, My Way wasn't half bad.

Angus and Grim are friends, as far as I know, and I can't see Angus doing such a grovelling, hideous non-apology as Mongoose ("Oh okay, we'll never reprint this book which we were never going to reprint anyway, and we'll never rehire this author who works for another publisher anyway").

And that's the frustrating thing to watch, Grim is clearly talented enough, he just wastes it on puerile stuff like this. I'm sure there's a great game in the concept of antagonistic forum cultures, but this doesn't look like it.

Greg Stolze's epic burn was worth reading that thread for; it's even better than OHT's.

Quote from: Simon Owen;750829The question is : are ' social justice warriors ' a worthy target of satire ?

They're somewhere between 'worthy-of-satire' (eg: annoying political party you don't like) and 'too evil to be satirisable' (eg: terrorists). I would put some in the former category, some in the latter. They often seem amusing, but a society run by them (or rather their non-slacktivist comrades) isn't funny.

Obviously YMMV. :D

Well, check the Middle Class card if you think it's all punching down.

I've tried to spare myself from looking too much at that thread on RPGnet but from what I did see it's the same old lies and misrepresentations as usual - albeit they've stopped short of actually accusing me of rape this time.

A popular complaint about it seems to be that it's not fair to make fun of the powerless. I'd take two issues with that assessment:

1. Social Justice Warriors are not powerless.
2. It's perfectly possible to use satirical 'bad' representations in order to highlight other people's awfulness.

If they want to be Suey Park to my Colbert, they're free to do so, but she and they are delving into self parody.

While I share many of the social goals of SJWs I find their shrill, nonsensical bullshit to be both counterproductive and risible. I place free expression higher on my totem pole of 'shit worth fighting for' than 'someone's fee-fees'.

If you don't understand the kind of people whose egos I'm pricking with this I have a Twitter list 'Rich vein of fail' for SJ extremists that you're welcome to peruse or you can spend 5 minutes on social justice Tumblr.

I also recommend plebcomics on Tumblr.

There's a design diary here (http://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/2014/05/20/how-awful-goodness-is-privilege-check-design-diary/) if you care to read.

Quote from: Ladybird;750945And that's the frustrating thing to watch, Grim is clearly talented enough, he just wastes it on puerile stuff like this. I'm sure there's a great game in the concept of antagonistic forum cultures, but this doesn't look like it.

I humbly submit that it is. Like a lot of my stuff that gets people riled up, not as puerile as it might 'seem'.

I think they've been banging on in that thread about Chav as being classist, when it's really more about poking fun at both the brutality of the British underclass AND the hype and hate directed at them by the likes of the Daily Mail.

Similarly, the mob likes to bay about the Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers as though the target was genuinely lady gamers, rather than the (supposed) horror, terror and bad sexist attitudes they engender amongst male gamers.

It is also frustrating to have circling packs of hyenas waiting every time you do something, especially if they completely miss the point, especially when their reaction was predicted in the full title.

As I've said, I haven't had much time for personal projects as I've been working on CC stuff but working in a larger scope and with other people is a slow process.

I have 3 big projects in the pipeline there/here.
One, virtually finished, is a multicultural, child-friendly project of the type these Tumblr-tots will probably appreciate in other circumstances.
One is going to be undeservedly controversial, but hopefully can overcome that due to popularity.
One has a great deal of potential to be a multi gameworld rules set for high powered, high octane adventures.

And there's a lot more in the pipeline.

Postmortem is more likely to be this sort of experimental release for the foreseeable future.

Quote from: S'mon;750952..'too evil to be satirisable' (eg: terrorists).

Oh, I don't know... Four Lions did a pretty good job and Achmed the dead terrorist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_jU3FdnNoc) is fucking hilarious. :)

Quote from: Simon Owen;750829The question is : are ' social justice warriors ' a worthy target of satire ?

Everybody and everything is worthy of satire. Everybody and everything should be laughed at. And I mean that with the deepest sincerity.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;751005Everybody and everything is worthy of satire. Everybody and everything should be laughed at. And I mean that with the deepest sincerity.

I agree, but satire is a very difficult type of comedy to do well; it is very easy to fuck up and simply do "[thing] is shit" instead, which is just boring after the hundredth time.

Four Lions is a fantastic film, for example, but it's joke isn't "terrorists are shit"; it goes to great lengths to show you the characters and why they hold the ideologies they do, even while they are being generally crap (See also, Dad's Army).

Quote from: Ladybird;751024I agree, but satire is a very difficult type of comedy to do well; it is very easy to fuck up and simply do "[thing] is shit" instead, which is just boring after the hundredth time.

Four Lions is a fantastic film, for example, but it's joke isn't "terrorists are shit"; it goes to great lengths to show you the characters and why they hold the ideologies they do, even while they are being generally crap (See also, Dad's Army).

I don't think it's that difficult. Maybe I should just pick more conventional targets and stop trying to be subtle and nuanced.

Quote from: GRIM;751026I don't think it's that difficult. Maybe I should just pick more conventional targets and stop trying to be subtle and nuanced.

If you think this is subtle and nuanced, i shudder to think what you consider crass and unsubtle.

Quote from: GRIM;750963If they want to be Suey Park to my Colbert, they're free to do so, but she and they are delving into self parody.

I think it's more accurate to say that they're a bunch of angry people on an Internet forum to your Suey Park.  I mean, you've managed to rile up a bunch of people on an Internet forum.  Congrats, that was a tough nut to crack.

I would pay good money for Stephen Colbert level satire in this hobby, but I don't know if it's not possible given the subject matter, or if people capable of that level of scathing with are better paid doing nearly anything else, but this -- this is definitely not an example of it.

Quote from: One Horse Town;751034If you think this is subtle and nuanced, i shudder to think what you consider crass and unsubtle.

It was apparently too subtle and nuanced for RPGnet

From: "This isn't "like playing a game about WW2 as the Nazis." This is like playing a game about WW2 where the Aryans get superiority bonuses."

(Seemingly not understanding that the person with the least privilege wins the game...)

To: "Hey now, let's not forget the third-party d20 supplement that treated women who gamed as mysterious, unknowable and all-controlling creatures that are not like us, the gamers."

(Seemingly not understanding that this was the whole point of the Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers, to exaggerate to the level of absurdity the - presumed - male attitude towards women in the hobby).

Or: Chav the knifing is classist.

(Seemingly not understanding that the real target was tabloids like the Daily Mail and how they create a demonic image of the underclass. Were I doing it today the target would probably be UKIP and the BNP via immigration with a side-swipe at White Wolf's notorious Gypsy supplement).

Then there's the weird attitude that the cards from this game somehow represent my own views. Take the 'brown person' card, which simultaneously makes fun of peoples (presumed) inability to tell certain races apart AND the tendency of some to use this inability in others as a bludgeon during argument. Similarly, other card 'quotes' are there to make fun of people's backward attitudes. The transwoman one - for example - talks about 'concealed carry' now being legal in many states.

I keep coming back to the Suey Park/Colbert thing as its recent enough for people to remember and it carries across pretty well. If you've seen her HuffPo interview you'll note that she doesn't really seem to understand how satire works and then descends into self-parody at the end.

Perhaps if my name hadn't been attached they wouldn't have read it according to their existing prejudices. We'll never know.

It's funny how the old lies rise to the top again though and no amount of refutations seem to gain traction.

Here's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNK-e6nnFGY) the interview I was referring to.

Look I am just glad some one is pointing out the social justice warrior shit.  I also think this forum needs a thicker skin because frankly social justice warriors deserves nothing.  They shouldn't even be defended.

They are fucking parasites that eventual destroy the very causes they try to promote.  They piss off other people and create a divide when actual activists try make the other side see their argument.  Once they done fucking shit up these social justice warriors sit back, bitch in the internet, and suck the life out of real causes.

You want social justice warriors off your back?  You do what EA does and buy them out.  Once they got their bribe money they will say how progressive you are because at the end of the day it isn't because they care for the cause.  They just want to reap the benefits of the cause.

I mean for crying out loud social justice warriors made up this shit. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR8ADuqrGx8)

Well , I gave it my best shot over there but there's like 20 of them and only 1 of me , I don't stand much chance !

Simon, would you like a comp copy?

Quote from: Simon Owen;751105Well , I gave it my best shot over there but there's like 20 of them and only 1 of me , I don't stand much chance !

Oh, horseshit.

If you're going to be a cock-munching troll for the lulz, at least have the balls to admit it.

Don't go poking people with a stick and then complaining when they punch you.  You're not only a fourth-rate troll, you're a whiny ass little bitch.

And here's your engraved invitation to tongue my pee hole.

Quote from: GRIM;751080It was apparently too subtle and nuanced for RPGnet

From: "This isn't "like playing a game about WW2 as the Nazis." This is like playing a game about WW2 where the Aryans get superiority bonuses."

(Seemingly not understanding that the person with the least privilege wins the game...)

To: "Hey now, let's not forget the third-party d20 supplement that treated women who gamed as mysterious, unknowable and all-controlling creatures that are not like us, the gamers."

(Seemingly not understanding that this was the whole point of the Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers, to exaggerate to the level of absurdity the - presumed - male attitude towards women in the hobby).

Or: Chav the knifing is classist.

(Seemingly not understanding that the real target was tabloids like the Daily Mail and how they create a demonic image of the underclass. Were I doing it today the target would probably be UKIP and the BNP via immigration with a side-swipe at White Wolf's notorious Gypsy supplement).

Then there's the weird attitude that the cards from this game somehow represent my own views. Take the 'brown person' card, which simultaneously makes fun of peoples (presumed) inability to tell certain races apart AND the tendency of some to use this inability in others as a bludgeon during argument. Similarly, other card 'quotes' are there to make fun of people's backward attitudes. The transwoman one - for example - talks about 'concealed carry' now being legal in many states.

I keep coming back to the Suey Park/Colbert thing as its recent enough for people to remember and it carries across pretty well. If you've seen her HuffPo interview you'll note that she doesn't really seem to understand how satire works and then descends into self-parody at the end.

Perhaps if my name hadn't been attached they wouldn't have read it according to their existing prejudices. We'll never know.

It's funny how the old lies rise to the top again though and no amount of refutations seem to gain traction.

Or maybe you're not nearly as clever as you think.  "Satirical intent" does not necessarily equal "successful."  Personally, from the preview posted the game looks ridiculous, like somebody took the vestige of a good idea and carried it out in the most hamfisted way possible.

Quote from: Old Geezer;751119Oh, horseshit.

If you're going to be a cock-munching troll for the lulz, at least have the balls to admit it.

Don't go poking people with a stick and then complaining when they punch you.  You're not only a fourth-rate troll, you're a whiny ass little bitch.

And here's your engraved invitation to tongue my pee hole.

Pretty much.

When someone walks by the monkey cage and gets shit thrown on them, I feel bad for them and blame the monkeys.

If someone keeps walking into the monkey cage and taunts them, I don't feel that sorry for him for getting shit thrown on him, for it is in the monkey's nature to throw shit, and you're asking for it.

Quote from: GRIM;751106Simon, would you like a comp copy?

Aw shucks ! No , its ok , I'll go and buy a copy from DriveThru as you deserve some money for your efforts.

I used to have problems because I used to play a lot of Battletech and I used the name ' Grand Dragon ' on certain forums : it's the name of one of the mechs in the game but people thought I was affiliated with the KKK or something !

Quote from: Old Geezer;751119Oh, horseshit.

If you're going to be a cock-munching troll for the lulz, at least have the balls to admit it.

Don't go poking people with a stick and then complaining when they punch you.  You're not only a fourth-rate troll, you're a whiny ass little bitch.

And here's your engraved invitation to tongue my pee hole.

And like fuck you , you piece of shit ! You don't know me and you don't know why I do anything so shut the fuck up. Tongue your own peehole you old bastard , you'll probably enjoy it !

Quote from: Old Geezer;751121Or maybe you're not nearly as clever as you think.  "Satirical intent" does not necessarily equal "successful."  Personally, from the preview posted the game looks ridiculous, like somebody took the vestige of a good idea and carried it out in the most hamfisted way possible.

Or maybe I overestimate the intelligence of others while underestimating their pomposity. This seems more likely. Given the kind of people getting upset are primarily the kind of people the game skewers, it seems quite successful - all things considered.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751124When someone walks by the monkey cage and gets shit thrown on them, I feel bad for them and blame the monkeys.

If someone keeps walking into the monkey cage and taunts them, I don't feel that sorry for him for getting shit thrown on him, for it is in the monkey's nature to throw shit, and you're asking for it.

Don't feel sorry for me , I'll live.

Quote from: GRIM;751128Or maybe I overestimate the intelligence of others while underestimating their pomposity. This seems more likely. Given the kind of people getting upset are primarily the kind of people the game skewers, it seems quite successful - all things considered.

"That's one theory, sure." -- Dogbert

Well, thanks to Darren mentioning the RPGsite we've got a couple of hundred readers at the moment.

Thanks Darren! The cheque's in the post.

Quote from: One Horse Town;751136Well, thanks to Darren mentioning the RPGsite we've got a couple of hundred readers at the moment.

Thanks Darren! The cheque's in the post.

Terry Pratchett writes that love is the other side of hate.

RPGnet and RPGsite need to meet in a seedy hotel room on the Lower East Side and spend the weekend having rough hate-fuck sex.

And yes, it goes both ways.

OOh they permabanned me !

Quote from: Simon Owen;751130Don't feel sorry for me , I'll live.

wasn't talking about you

Quote from: Snowman0147;750645To be honest I really don't buy much of their games, but when they do something right they do something right.  They recently made a card game that makes fun of the social justice warrior crowd and frankly some one needed to poke fun in them.

Eh, I think there's a line between making fun of SJWs and making fun of actually oppressed groups and some of the cards I see on the RPGNow preview seem to sail over that line.

3/10 trolling, this is the sort of satire which needs a scalpel and a surgeon's touch, not a shotgun.

Quote from: Simon Owen;751139OOh they permabanned me !

Sadly, "please take him back so he won't shitpost on our site" isn't grounds to lodge an appeal on someone's behalf.

Quote from: Ladybird;751146Sadly, "please take him back so he won't shitpost on our site" isn't grounds to lodge an appeal on someone's behalf.

Marry me.

Quote from: Warthur;751145Eh, I think there's a line between making fun of SJWs and making fun of actually oppressed groups and some of the cards I see on the RPGNow preview seem to sail over that line.

3/10 trolling, this is the sort of satire which needs a scalpel and a surgeon's touch, not a shotgun.

See, now that's more like a valid criticism. Given the, better, contextual knowledge that the quotes etc are largely meant to take the piss out of people who hold those views and that the game as a whole is targeted on SJW tumblrists, does that change your view at all?

Quote from: GRIM;751128Or maybe I overestimate the intelligence of others while underestimating their pomposity. This seems more likely. Given the kind of people getting upset are primarily the kind of people the game skewers, it seems quite successful - all things considered.

I'm going to give some actual, non-sarcastic advice.

Harlan Ellison has already done the "I'm so much smarter and more clever than anybody else" schtick, way back in the 70s.  And yeah, I'm old enough that I was there.

But by 1980 that schtick had gotten really old.  And now, Harlan Ellison is of no interest to anybody but Harlan Ellison.  He is no longer "the Angry Young Man of Science Fiction," or the "Tempermental Artist," or the "Endearing Curmudgeon."  He's now "Harlan Ellison is just an asshole."

You don't want to go down that path.  Really, you don't.

Quote from: GRIM;750754The system is surprisingly deep in terms of gameplay really.

Alright, I'll bite. :)

Care to elaborate on the depth of the gameplay?

Quote from: GRIM;751151See, now that's more like a valid criticism. Given the, better, contextual knowledge that the quotes etc are largely meant to take the piss out of people who hold those views and that the game as a whole is targeted on SJW tumblrists, does that change your view at all?

Honestly, not really.  See, I actually GET it, I just don't think it was done well.

Now, a game mechanic where... oh let's see... the point value of the "oppressed class" card is increased for every "unnoticed privilege" card, purely working off the top of my head, would be hilarious to me.

NB:  Humor is an effective vehicle for satire, but humor is subjective and what leaves one person cold will be pants-wettingly funny to another.

"Overprivileged College Kid Who Wants To Be Oppressed:  The Whinging" coming soon from White Wolf.

Working title is a bit long, but you get the idea.

Repack the mechanics and sell it to SJG as Munckikin Tumblr.

Quote from: Warthur;751145Eh, I think there's a line between making fun of SJWs and making fun of actually oppressed groups and some of the cards I see on the RPGNow preview seem to sail over that line.

3/10 trolling, this is the sort of satire which needs a scalpel and a surgeon's touch, not a shotgun.

Yes, I agree completely.  Spoiled college kids who sit around wailing about the plight of the oppressed, but don't DO anything at ALL, deserve satire.  Just like the "GUNS ARE FREEDOM!" Internet warriors who don't even join the NRA.

Both groups exist, and deserve to be mercilessly mocked.

But your aim has to be REALLY good.

Quote from: Old Geezer;751153I'm going to give some actual, non-sarcastic advice.

Harlan Ellison has already done the "I'm so much smarter and more clever than anybody else" schtick, way back in the 70s.  And yeah, I'm old enough that I was there.

But by 1980 that schtick had gotten really old.  And now, Harlan Ellison is of no interest to anybody but Harlan Ellison.  He is no longer "the Angry Young Man of Science Fiction," or the "Tempermental Artist," or the "Endearing Curmudgeon."  He's now "Harlan Ellison is just an asshole."

You don't want to go down that path.  Really, you don't.

He's a personal hero, so actually I'd take that as an enormous compliment.
Of COURSE Harlan Ellison is out of favour, he's got no more patience for this kind of bullshit than I have.

Old Geezer: The Irreleventing

Quote from: Ladybird;751146Sadly, "please take him back so he won't shitpost on our site" isn't grounds to lodge an appeal on someone's behalf.

My post count is low , but in general is high quality.

Quote from: Motorskills;751154Alright, I'll bite. :)

Care to elaborate on the depth of the gameplay?

Sure! :)

So, each player gets doled out a hand of cards and gets to examine them in secret first. They pick one of these as a trump card. This trump card comes into play at the end of the game and any card that contradicts it has to be discarded from in front of you.

You then take turns to play cards on each other. Obviously you're mostly trying to give yourself less privilege and others more, but you can get away with playing cards on yourself that seem to disadvantage you as a feint, knowing that your trump will get rid of them.

Since each card played has to be compatible with the cards already in front of a player it can be worthwhile taking a hit from a card that gives you privilege, if only to prevent something worse being played on you. If you can guess someone's trump that will also put you at an advantage.

You'll also come to learn which kinds of cards tend to 'win on ties' with your group when it comes to arguments. So there's a learning curve with each new playing group.

Quote from: Rincewind1;751160Repack the mechanics and sell it to SJG as Munckikin Tumblr.

The mechanics WILL be used for other games, but without the inbuilt design to lead to arguments (wider point scale).

Quote from: GRIM;751169Sure! :)

So, each player gets doled out a hand of cards and gets to examine them in secret first. They pick one of these as a trump card. This trump card comes into play at the end of the game and any card that contradicts it has to be discarded from in front of you.

You then take turns to play cards on each other. Obviously you're mostly trying to give yourself less privilege and others more, but you can get away with playing cards on yourself that seem to disadvantage you as a feint, knowing that your trump will get rid of them.

Since each card played has to be compatible with the cards already in front of a player it can be worthwhile taking a hit from a card that gives you privilege, if only to prevent something worse being played on you. If you can guess someone's trump that will also put you at an advantage.

You'll also come to learn which kinds of cards tend to 'win on ties' with your group when it comes to arguments. So there's a learning curve with each new playing group.

Ok that actually sounds hilariously devious.

Quote from: Marleycat;751172Ok that actually sounds hilariously devious.

The idea is to reskin it for something politically devious but that version needs a lot more playtesting.

Quote from: GRIM;751169This trump card comes into play at the end of the game and any card that contradicts it has to be discarded from in front of you.
...
..each card played has to be compatible with the cards already in front of a player...

So, something like Christian would be incompatible with Atheist? Or, if someone played Cisgender on you, but you had chosen Bisexual as your trump card, the Cisgender ++ wouldn't be counted towards your score at the end of the game?

Quote from: GRIM;751164He's a personal hero, so actually I'd take that as an enormous compliment.
Of COURSE Harlan Ellison is out of favour, he's got no more patience for this kind of bullshit than I have.

No matter how well played, a single note eventually becomes tedious.

Quote from: Dodger;751176So, something like Christian would be incompatible with Atheist? Or, if someone played Cisgender on you, but you had chosen Bisexual as your trump card, the Cisgender ++ wouldn't be counted towards your score at the end of the game?

Yep, the Christian one would be incompatible with other religious cards, but you might be better off using the atheist one as your trump, since Christians are privileged, still it depends what you get in your hand.

I'm fairly sure you can be bisexual and cisgendered, but bisexual and lesbian, for example, would contradict (someone will be along to argue about that momentarily I'm sure).

I could definitely see options for booster packs or even different decks like how Onyx Path maintains seperate distinct game lines but same setting and mechanics.

I really can't garner sympathy for Postmortem, but I do feel sorry for anyone who remotely defended him, because they've been cleansed from that site.

Or maybe I should be happy for them?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751191I really can't garner sympathy for Postmortem, but I do feel sorry for anyone who remotely defended him, because they've been cleansed from that site.

Or maybe I should be happy for them?

Being banned from RPGnet is a badge of honour though.

Quote from: Rincewind1;751160Repack the mechanics and sell it to SJG as Munckikin Tumblr.

I'm part of a munchkin group at a local café, we might actually play that.

Quote from: GRIM;751192Being banned from RPGnet is a badge of honour though.

More like a prize for competing these days ;).

Quote from: GRIM;751192Being banned from RPGnet is a badge of honour though.

If you think about it, they should have you on the payroll.  Because every six months or so you just do something to troll them, and in the process they can identify anyone who doesn't follow the groupthink and then can ban them.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751197If you think about it, they should have you on the payroll.  Because every six months or so you just do something to troll them, and in the process they can identify anyone who doesn't follow the groupthink and then can ban them.

It is quite amusing to see two mods in that thread defend a game that systematically supports such things as rape.

As i said, Sanctimony.

Quote from: Warthur;751145Eh, I think there's a line between making fun of SJWs and making fun of actually oppressed groups and some of the cards I see on the RPGNow preview seem to sail over that line.

3/10 trolling, this is the sort of satire which needs a scalpel and a surgeon's touch, not a shotgun.

Had you seen the hypocriticism and how they treat actual mental illness?  Social justice warriors make shit up in order to draw attention to themselves while people who suffer from real mental illness get ignored.  They need a shotgun (in a satire sense of the word).  Social justice warriors are not defending anyone and are only helping themselves.

Quote from: dragoner;751193I'm part of a munchkin group at a local café, we might actually play that.

Don't mention Munchkin, it triggers me.

Quote from: Snowman0147;751209Had you seen the hypocriticism and how they treat actual mental illness?  Social justice warriors make shit up in order to draw attention to themselves while people who suffer from real mental illness get ignored.  They need a shotgun (in a satire sense of the word).  Social justice warriors are not defending anyone and are only helping themselves.

I actually do suffer from moderate to severe depression with suicidal episodes. Being teased about it doesn't bother me so much, I do so myself (it disempowers its effect in my life). The hypocrisy, however, does bother me.

As does picking on my dad, who was just doing what parents do and trying to look after his kid.

Quote from: GRIM;751213Don't mention Munchkin, it triggers me.

Speaking of triggering.  Guess what I had seen. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug9zq1kFwrY)

Quote from: Snowman0147;751215Speaking of triggering.  Guess what I had seen. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug9zq1kFwrY)

Yeah, we've lost. The lunatics are running the asylum. I give up.

Quote from: GRIM;751179Yep, the Christian one would be incompatible with other religious cards, but you might be better off using the atheist one as your trump, since Christians are privileged...

With Christian/Atheist, I was envisaging a situation where I've got Christian in my hand and I want to play it on my opponent but I can't because he's just played atheist on himself.

QuoteI'm fairly sure you can be bisexual and cisgendered, but bisexual and lesbian, for example, would contradict (someone will be along to argue about that momentarily I'm sure).

And the arguments over whether certain combinations of cards are compatible or not, is part of the game...

Nice mechanic.

I think it works as satire, although it is quite close to the bone. I can imagine that some members of the groups it stereotypes might feel that it perpetuates those stereotypes and, thus, encourages discrimination. I don't think it does.

It's also quite niche/esoteric, in that the average man on the street wouldn't know what a social justice warrior is, and would need an explanation of the context and what the game is lampooning.

I would probably feel uncomfortable suggesting it to a group (particularly one that included a disabled person), unless I felt confident beforehand that the majority of them would grasp the concept straight away, and share my disdain for SJWs.

Quote from: Snowman0147;751215Speaking of triggering.  Guess what I had seen. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug9zq1kFwrY)

Quote from: GRIM;751217Yeah, we've lost. The lunatics are running the asylum. I give up.

Please, that's probably just some ALEX JONESING.

MundaneMatt strikes me as a pretty reasonable guy for the most part.  He has his ups and downs.  When he is wrong he admits that later on and try to do better.  He isn't a Alex Jones is the point I am making.

Quote from: GRIM;751213Don't mention Munchkin, it triggers me.

Now this, this is fucking hilarious.

Quote from: GRIM;751173The idea is to reskin it for something politically devious but that version needs a lot more playtesting.

...and now, when that game releases (Which sounds like it might be good fun), the mechanics are going to be forever linked to this one.

I mean, that evidently isn't a problem, you released this so you must be willing to live with the consequences of your actions. But it looks to me like you've just pre-emptively poisoned the well for your better game, in exchange for a few cheap attacks now. If your other game needs more playtesting, surely the, what, five? ten? hours it took to put this together would have been better spent playtesting.

Quote from: GRIM;751026I don't think it's that difficult. Maybe I should just pick more conventional targets and stop trying to be subtle and nuanced.

It's not that the jokes are going over our heads. It's that they are bad jokes. They don't work.

Quote from: GRIM;751213Don't mention Munchkin, it triggers me.

Is it just me, or is it getting solipsistic in here?

Quote from: dragoner;751227Is it just me, or is it getting solipsistic in here?

I admit, I had to look this up :o


Can anyone please explain to my simple mind how Holdren can describe a game where it's awesome to be a lawyer defending a rapist and that's all cool, but if someone says rape can be a powerful plot point in fiction then they are advocating rape themselves?

Anyone?  Maybe if I rub two sticks together one of the mods over there can answer this, because it makes no sense to me.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751238I admit, I had to look this up :o


Can anyone please explain to my simple mind how Holdren can describe a game where it's awesome to be a lawyer defending a rapist and that's all cool, but if someone says rape can be a powerful plot point in fiction then they are advocating rape themselves?

Anyone?  Maybe if I rub two sticks together one of the mods over there can answer this, because it makes no sense to me.

Sanctimony.

In other news, George RR Martin responds to criticism of his depiction of rape and sexual violence in A Song of Ice and Fire (http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/02/george-r-r-martin-on-game-of-thrones-and-sexual-violence/).

Quote from: Ladybird;751224It's not that the jokes are going over our heads. It's that they are bad jokes. They don't work.

Subjective.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751238I admit, I had to look this up :o


Can anyone please explain to my simple mind how Holdren can describe a game where it's awesome to be a lawyer defending a rapist and that's all cool, but if someone says rape can be a powerful plot point in fiction then they are advocating rape themselves?

Anyone?  Maybe if I rub two sticks together one of the mods over there can answer this, because it makes no sense to me.

Cognitive dissonance.

Quote from: Dodger;750995Oh, I don't know... Four Lions did a pretty good job...

I watched Four Lions with my American mother in law. She was slightly aghast: "That's racist!" :rolleyes:
I guess yeah it did a pretty good job satirising them, while being rather sympathetic to the lead suicide bomber.

OK, yeah, even evil people can be satirised. I was wrong, I withdraw my prior post m'lud. :)

Quote from: Dodger;751252In other news, George RR Martin responds to criticism of his depiction of rape and sexual violence in A Song of Ice and Fire (http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/02/george-r-r-martin-on-game-of-thrones-and-sexual-violence/).

That's so damn good, going to post it here.

Quote from: NYTWhy have you included incidents of rape or sexual violence in your "Song of Ice and Fire" novels? What larger themes are you trying to bring out with these scenes?

Quote from: JRRMAn artist has an obligation to tell the truth. My novels are epic fantasy, but they are inspired by and grounded in history. Rape and sexual violence have been a part of every war ever fought, from the ancient Sumerians to our present day. To omit them from a narrative centered on war and power would have been fundamentally false and dishonest, and would have undermined one of the themes of the books: that the true horrors of human history derive not from orcs and Dark Lords, but from ourselves. We are the monsters. (And the heroes too). Each of us has within himself the capacity for great good, and great evil.

Quote from: NYTSome critics of the books have said that even if such scenes are meant to illustrate that the world of Westeros is often a dark and depraved place, there is an overreliance on these moments over the course of the novels, and at a certain point they are no longer shocking and become titillating. How do you respond to this criticism?

Quote from: JRRMI have to take issue with the notion that Westeros is a "dark and depraved place." It's not the Disneyland Middle Ages, no, and that was quite deliberate ... but it is no darker nor more depraved than our own world. History is written in blood. The atrocities in "A Song of Ice and Fire," sexual and otherwise, pale in comparison to what can be found in any good history book.

As for the criticism that some of the scenes of sexual violence are titillating, to me that says more about these critics than about my books. Maybe they found certain scenes titillating. Most of my readers, I suspect, read them as intended.

I will say that my philosophy as a writer, since the very start of my career, has been one of "show, don't tell." Whatever might be happening in my books, I try to put the reader into the middle of it, rather than summarizing the action. That requires vivid sensory detail. I don't want distance, I want to put you there. When the scene in question is a sex scene, some readers find that intensely uncomfortable... and that's ten times as true for scenes of sexual violence.

But that is as it should be. Certain scenes are meant to be uncomfortable, disturbing, hard to read.

Quote from: NYTAs your novels have been adapted for TV, comic books and other visual media, do you think these scenes of sexual violence that you described in oblique and indirect ways are becoming more explicit and more shocking? Is that a potential problem?

Quote from: JRRMThe graphic novels and television programs are in the hands of others, who make their own artistic choices as to what sort of approach will work best in their respective mediums.

Quote from: GRIM;751257Cognitive dissonance.

I know the answer you'd give.  I'd like to hear their explanation.

Wishful thinking, I know.

Quote from: GRIM;751256Subjective.

Of the people who don't like your work, there aren't many people willing to actually engage you in discussion, rather than fly into a rage. You've got a few here; how many of us need to tell you this, before you pay attention? Or are you even interested, are you quite happy with your audience as it is?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751283I know the answer you'd give.  I'd like to hear their explanation.

Wishful thinking, I know.

I can see how such an RPG would be entertaining; it's essentially a grimmer version of a debating club. The game, of course, would be winning the case despite hating your client (As I'm sure happens to real lawyers daily).

Not a game I'd want to play, though.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751238I admit, I had to look this up :o

Just my sick sense of humor. ;)

QuoteCan anyone please explain to my simple mind how Holdren can describe a game where it's awesome to be a lawyer defending a rapist and that's all cool, but if someone says rape can be a powerful plot point in fiction then they are advocating rape themselves?

Anyone?  Maybe if I rub two sticks together one of the mods over there can answer this, because it makes no sense to me.

No, it isn't awesome to be a lawyer defending a rapist; the mods over there are assholes.

Quote from: Ladybird;751298I can see how such an RPG would be entertaining; it's essentially a grimmer version of a debating club. The game, of course, would be winning the case despite hating your client (As I'm sure happens to real lawyers daily).

Not a game I'd want to play, though.

The point is, and what I'm not getting apparently is:

"rape is a powerful plot device in fiction."

is literally the exact same thing Holdren is doing.  I.e., using rape (the defendent) as a core driving part of the plot/game.

I'm not understanding how you can call one person a rapist and/or rape advocate while saying another is "awsome!" for doing the exact same thing; they're both using rape as a key part of a plot.  I'd love to hear their explanation for the difference, becasue as far as I can tell, there isn't any meaningful one.  If anything, what Holdren doing is worse because he's defending the rapist.  Raggi is just saying it exists as part of the plot, and isn't defending the act or the perpetrator at all.

Quote from: Ladybird;751296Of the people who don't like your work, there aren't many people willing to actually engage you in discussion, rather than fly into a rage. You've got a few here; how many of us need to tell you this, before you pay attention? Or are you even interested, are you quite happy with your audience as it is?

There's lots of people that don't like lots of things. That doesn't mean that they're objectively bad. EG: South Park, Family Guy, personally I could never stand Mrs Brown's Boys - for example. Of course, I don't feel the need to inflate my dislike into a cause.

I'm a fiction writer. There are a few incidents of rape in my books. It's not done for exploitation or titillation, and I've written it in such a way that even a person who might under some circumstances find rape ohhh so sexxay is unlikely to have that reaction.

I *loathe* it as a plot element in old-style romance novels, where the hero starts out as a rapist and gets reformed by the end of the story, so I deliberately set out to fuck up any attempts to romanticize it or make it cool. I spent a long time trying to understand what about it people might think was titillating and then systematically screwed things up for them.

Quote from: GRIM;751256Subjective.

Dude.

Dude, dude, dude.

When you are One Man Standing Alone (tm), you might be Galileo.

On the other hand, odds indicate you're more likely Harold Camping.

Quote from: GRIM;751169Sure! :)

So, each player gets doled out a hand of cards and gets to examine them in secret first. They pick one of these as a trump card. This trump card comes into play at the end of the game and any card that contradicts it has to be discarded from in front of you.

You then take turns to play cards on each other. Obviously you're mostly trying to give yourself less privilege and others more, but you can get away with playing cards on yourself that seem to disadvantage you as a feint, knowing that your trump will get rid of them.

Since each card played has to be compatible with the cards already in front of a player it can be worthwhile taking a hit from a card that gives you privilege, if only to prevent something worse being played on you. If you can guess someone's trump that will also put you at an advantage.

You'll also come to learn which kinds of cards tend to 'win on ties' with your group when it comes to arguments. So there's a learning curve with each new playing group.

Wow, you actually inverted Contract Bridge into a parody! It's like Castigation Bridge, instead.

First there is no mutual table agreement on the Trump, as it is decided individually for your own hand, and thus tautalogical.

Second, instead of playing cards with a partner to manage the flow of tricks to upgrade your position to reach your contract, you play cards UPON OTHERS accusing them in order downgrade their position.

And all for your self-defined final trump at the end; to degrade table position elsewhere that you are the highest by default.

That's... actually brilliant satire mechanically. Though it would require knowing the game's mechanics, being knowledgeable about other games out there and their paradigms, and being up to date on cultural-studies-as-political-tool for deconstructive arguments. Being crass upon the cards is almost hand-waveable as that's too good of a mechanical joke to wait for someone else to snatch up.

That said, a bit more polish would have made the riposte absolutely killer. How about a version 2.0, or at least a Beta or Unlimited release?

Quote from: Opaopajr;751409Wow, you actually inverted Contract Bridge into a parody! It's like Castigation Bridge, instead.

First there is no mutual table agreement on the Trump, as it is decided individually for your own hand, and thus tautalogical.

Second, instead of playing cards with a partner to manage the flow of tricks to upgrade your position to reach your contract, you play cards UPON OTHERS accusing them in order downgrade their position.

And all for your self-defined final trump at the end; to degrade table position elsewhere that you are the highest by default.

That's... actually brilliant satire mechanically. Though it would require knowing the game's mechanics, being knowledgeable about other games out there and their paradigms, and being up to date on cultural-studies-as-political-tool for deconstructive arguments. Being crass upon the cards is almost hand-waveable as that's too good of a mechanical joke to wait for someone else to snatch up.

That said, a bit more polish would have made the riposte absolutely killer. How about a version 2.0, or at least a Beta or Unlimited release?

Told you! There's a wickedly solid game in there once you look past all the faux furor being whipped up over at TBP.

Hmm. I'll comment on this, GRIM.

1) I actually found that mechanic to be pretty funny and clever satire. A lot more clever than the impression from the card pictures gave me. From a marketing perspective, I think you're showing the worst part of the game rather than the best. The mechanic comes across as creative and funny, but the cards come across as lazy and bitter.

Also, if you're going with subtle self-deprecation and self-parody while attacking something you don't like? I'd recommend not doing it. I tried it for years and it never worked. Text is a poor medium for conveying irony while simultaneously being genuinely angry. And whether you are or not, you certainly come across as being angry at feminists and others, and the feeling is usually mutual.

2) Reading things as charitably as possible, as someone who has a few of your products, it seems like you're going for a Team America: World Police sort of double-edged parody. Parody one group by presenting them as offensive stereotypes, but parody the viewer group by implying that this is how they see the world. It can be really effective if done right, but it's extremely hard to pull off and even the best humorists are pretty hit or miss with it. In anything of yours I've read, it seems like it's always the weakest part.

3) Humor in general is really hard to pull off. It's a bit like drawing or writing. Just about anyone can sit down and try it, but very few people can make it something worth paying for. And when humor fails, it fails _hard_ and makes the writer look amateurish. So right there, with 1 and 2, you're setting yourself up with a difficult goal.

4) Parody is usually the most effective when the writer either doesn't have strong views on a subject or likes what they're parodying. When the writer clearly dislikes the subject of the parody, the humor is often lost and it comes across as an angry rant. And even if you don't have strong feelings, it can look like sour grapes if it looks like you do. In your case, it certainly looks like you're parodying someone you dislike and some of the cards come across as, "You hurt me online. I'll show you!"

5) Finding a niche can be good for a career unless the niche becomes a rut. Right now, you've kinda typecast yourself as a one-trick pony, and this is just reinforcing it. It looks like you've given up on being anything but the "tries to offend feminists and SJWs" guy, even if you haven't. You _have_ written on other subjects and that stuff usually comes out better from a quality perspective.

6) You're right on one thing. Social justice advocates aren't totally powerless anymore, particularly in the tiny niche of RPGs and related hobbies, where we've made rapid gains over the last few years. For the first time ever, we actually have real influence within this admittedly tiny and nearly irrelevant hobby. For the first time, in fact, it's possible for game designers on our "side" to cynically exploit that to get pats on the back and funding. It's also possible for our allies to dogpile someone who didn't really do anything all that bad, or to exagerrate a problem. (Numenara and Pathfinder Bestiary IV both had that happen to some extent. Monte Cook may have an imperfect record, but Paizo really deserves more good will.) So now it's time to reign it in and start braking a bit.

You're not one of those people unfairly dogpiled, though. You've picked this fight over and over and over again, and it looks like you're cynically using it to sell games. It's not cool when my "side" does it (and I caught my first ban on another forum for calling out a fellow trans lesbian game designer over it, even though her game probably has a lot more going for it than this one looks like it does), and it's sure as hell not cool when you do it. And regardless of any cleverness in the actual rules, those cards look like you're desperate and trying to get attention. Like you didn't really understand humor, but thought you'd get some money if you just said, "hehe, how about those SJWs, eh? They sure do suck, amiright?" over and over in different ways. Maybe you're not, but that's what it _looks_ like.

If you could come up with that mechanic, then you could come up with something funnier than these cards. Heck, you could pull yourself out of the rut and change the reputation you've picked up, if you really tried. Or you could just keep doing this stuff and get written off as a one-trick pony whose time has come and gone.

Quote from: GRIM;751192Being banned from RPGnet is a badge of honour though.

That's like getting an award for showing up, dood.  You can get banned for a sentence fragment there. :P  Got to raise the bar a bit.

Quote from: pdboddy;751445That's like getting an award for showing up, dood.  You can get banned for a sentence fragment there. :P  Got to raise the bar a bit.

Agreed, even I caught a 7:day ban there like 3 years ago? It's ridiculously easy and getting easier by the minute given I see Zeea here (nothing against you but you're a classic SJW to me. Rock on though because this earth has room for both of us).

Quote from: Marleycat;751421Told you! There's a wickedly solid game in there once you look past all the faux furor being whipped up over at TBP.

It's also Hipster-tastic, as all the plusses really are negatives, and vice versa. It's a satirical commentary on the simplistic politicization of social games through a simplistic game of social politics. It's pretty cleverly hidden, I'll say. edit: I also think it's hilarious as criticism through mechanics of juxtaposing between a medium of pretend being sociable, and a social medium's umbrage with the pretend. Also, as this would be my mod's voice, it is high pitch and nasal. /arches eyebrow

Still think the cards and their tag lines could use some polish, though.

I shan't be further commenting, but it's nice to see the more positive commentary here.

The system (tweaked) will turn up with different 'skins'.

Zeea, if you're talking about Caoimhe Ora Snow or Kynn Bartlett or whatever other alias they use at the moment, I suggest taking a look into their background a little more closely. IMO they're someone who genuinely deserves this kind of level of scrutiny.

Ciao.

I'm very aware, and have discussed my position before on other sites, but would rather not get into it again. Let's just say I'm pretty sure she doesn't care for me now.

Rape
Now
Bad

Quote from: Zeea;7514316) You're right on one thing. Social justice advocates aren't totally powerless anymore, particularly in the tiny niche of RPGs and related hobbies, where we've made rapid gains over the last few years. For the first time ever, we actually have real influence within this admittedly tiny and nearly irrelevant hobby.

I guess effort pays off. 'All that is required for evil to triumph is that the good do nothing', etc. More important perhaps is that regular liberals generally have no moral framework to resist SJW activism, all they can say is "I agree with you in principle, but I think you're going too far here..."

It would be a shame if SJWs drove everyone else out of the RPG hobby and turned it into a far-left ghetto, with normal people forced to play WH40K or something. Unfortunately you seem to be pretty far along to achieving 'victory'. I've been picking up a bunch of Paizo Adventure Paths recently. I noticed that in 2007 they start off with fairly conventional left-liberal mores in Rise of the Runelords; by the time of Wrath of the Righteous in 2013 they're way down the SJW rabbit hole. Not that that does Paizo any good of course, the hate for Paizo on TBP is hilarious.

Quote from: S'mon;751477I guess effort pays off. 'All that is required for evil to triumph is that the good do nothing', etc. More important perhaps is that regular liberals generally have no moral framework to resist SJW activism, all they can say is "I agree with you in principle, but I think you're going too far here..."

It would be a shame if SJWs drove everyone else out of the RPG hobby and turned it into a far-left ghetto, with normal people forced to play WH40K or something. Unfortunately you seem to be pretty far along to achieving 'victory'. I've been picking up a bunch of Paizo Adventure Paths recently. I noticed that in 2007 they start off with fairly conventional left-liberal mores in Rise of the Runelords; by the time of Wrath of the Righteous in 2013 they're way down the SJW rabbit hole. Not that that does Paizo any good of course, the hate for Paizo on TBP is hilarious.

I wouldn't be surprised if many of the SJW's now on the left wouldn't have been the kind of people on the right persecuting the Jews in 1930s Germany or blacks in 1960s America. I don't think it's a matter of politics necessarily , its a matter of feeling self-important and wanting to be morally superior over other people. They want to be on the ' right side ' and then they can use that as a stick to beat other people with.

Quote from: Zeea;7514316) You're right on one thing. Social justice advocates aren't totally powerless anymore, particularly in the tiny niche of RPGs and related hobbies, where we've made rapid gains over the last few years. For the first time ever, we actually have real influence within this admittedly tiny and nearly irrelevant hobby. For the first time, in fact, it's possible for game designers on our "side" to cynically exploit that to get pats on the back and funding. It's also possible for our allies to dogpile someone who didn't really do anything all that bad, or to exagerrate a problem.

This is one of the saddest things I've ever read.

Quote from: S'mon;751477I guess effort pays off. 'All that is required for evil to triumph is that the good do nothing', etc. More important perhaps is that regular liberals generally have no moral framework to resist SJW activism, all they can say is "I agree with you in principle, but I think you're going too far here..."

It would be a shame if SJWs drove everyone else out of the RPG hobby and turned it into a far-left ghetto, with normal people forced to play WH40K or something. Unfortunately you seem to be pretty far along to achieving 'victory'. I've been picking up a bunch of Paizo Adventure Paths recently. I noticed that in 2007 they start off with fairly conventional left-liberal mores in Rise of the Runelords; by the time of Wrath of the Righteous in 2013 they're way down the SJW rabbit hole. Not that that does Paizo any good of course, the hate for Paizo on TBP is hilarious.

Heh, they have one queer couple and you can't handle that? Get some perspective.

Quote from: Simon Owen;751481I wouldn't be surprised if many of the SJW's now on the left wouldn't have been the kind of people on the right persecuting the Jews in 1930s Germany or blacks in 1960s America. I don't think it's a matter of politics necessarily , its a matter of feeling self-important and wanting to be morally superior over other people. They want to be on the ' right side ' and then they can use that as a stick to beat other people with.

Yes, exactly. I have absolutely no reason to support being able to get married and not getting beaten up for going to the bathroom except wanting to control people, and my master plan is to persecute people in the vital field of "one forum about a niche hobby." Really, you sound paranoid and ridiculous. This is what happens in an echo chamber.

I know I said I wouldn't comment any more, but I'll just leave THIS (http://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/2014/05/22/worldgothday-privileged-to-pay-it-back/) here.

Quote from: Simon Owen;751481wouldn't have been the kind of people on the right persecuting the Jews in 1930s Germany or blacks in 1960s America. I don't think it's a matter of politics necessarily , its a matter of feeling self-important and wanting to be morally superior over other people. They want to be on the ' right side ' and then they can use that as a stick to beat other people with.

You mean people on the left.

Nazis = National Socialist Worker's Party. They were very, very left, at least compared to everyone but the Soviets.

And much of the opposition to Blacks in the 1960s was actually from Democrats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_Connor

It's really amazing how history gets re-written. Republicans free the slaves, keep the same policies for 100 years, yet somehow they are depicted as racists, while the actual racist party is now the champion, because they hand out free phones...

Aww, Sophie Lancaster Foundation with their video has now given me a big sad. :(
Now I wanna listen to more Portishead, but since it's World Goth Day I'm torn between them and Sisters of Mercy. (Just don't tell Andrew Eldrich I'm pigeonholing him. :p)

Quote from: Opaopajr;751499Aww, Sophie Lancaster Foundation with their video has now given me a big sad. :(
Now I wanna listen to more Portishead, but since it's World Goth Day I'm torn between them and Sisters of Mercy. (Just don't tell Andrew Eldrich I'm pigeonholing him. :p)

Listening to Portishead is never a bad choice.

Quote from: Zeea;751485Heh, they have one queer couple and you can't handle that? Get some perspective.

No, they had a gay couple in 2007's Rise of the Runelords (Cyrdak Drokkus & Sir Jasper Kovaski). Heck, I (the right-wing extremist) have some in my Forgotten Realms Loudwater game (WotC doesn't detail the sexuality of their NPCs, so I made two gay & one lesbian) - that's just conventional Liberal stuff. WoTR goes way beyond that, as I expect you know.

Quote from: JeremyR;751498You mean people on the left.

Nazis = National Socialist Worker's Party. They were very, very left, at least compared to everyone but the Soviets.

I'd really like to see a well-sourced article detailing this, because even nazis 101 tell you that the left-wing revolutionary strasserites got wiped out in 1934.

Quote from: JeremyR;751498You mean people on the left.

Nazis = National Socialist Worker's Party. They were very, very left, at least compared to everyone but the Soviets.

And much of the opposition to Blacks in the 1960s was actually from Democrats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_Connor

It's really amazing how history gets re-written. Republicans free the slaves, keep the same policies for 100 years, yet somehow they are depicted as racists, while the actual racist party is now the champion, because they hand out free phones...

Wow, that's some of the dumbest, most ignorant bullshit I've seen outside CNN commentary for a while.

1) The NSDAP was extreme right. It was never a socialist party, even when Drexler ran it. Hitler himself praises it for not being left-wing and for the socialist not meaning what it usually means.

2) Yep, the Democrats were the party of racists until national Democratic Presidents and northern Democrats kept supporting civil rights. The southern Democrats started jumping ship to the Republicans as far back as the 1950s, and it really solidified with Nixon's Southern Strategy, which was an attempt to appeal to seize the middle ground between the Democratic left and the remnants of the Democratic right. Until the early 200s, you still had people like Virgil Goode running as Democrats, then independents, before switching to Republican.

You know what? Forget it. Read a book sometime. I suggest "Hubris" and "Nemesis" by Sir Ian Kershaw when it comes to Hitler and the NSDAP, and "The Politics of Rage" and "Roads to Dominion" by...I can't remember the name, maybe Diamond, I think?

Quote from: Zeea;751507You know what? Forget it. Read a book sometime. I suggest "Hubris" and "Nemesis" by Sir Ian Kershaw when it comes to Hitler and the NSDAP,

Good recommendations, I am using those for my own thesis work right now.

Quote from: JeremyR;751498You mean people on the left.

Nazis = National Socialist Worker's Party. They were very, very left, at least compared to everyone but the Soviets.

And much of the opposition to Blacks in the 1960s was actually from Democrats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_Connor

It's really amazing how history gets re-written. Republicans free the slaves, keep the same policies for 100 years, yet somehow they are depicted as racists, while the actual racist party is now the champion, because they hand out free phones...

Eh, I think most of the people persecuting blacks in 1960s America were basically conservative reactionaries, and not ideological. They didn't feel themselves on the 'right side of history', which is a big attraction of modern SJW activism - as Orwell said, getting to be the guy with the boot stamping on the face of your enemies is a big thrill for a lot of people.

The Nazis/NSDP were ideological radicals and (somewhat tangentially) related to modern SJWs, so I'd agree with you more there.

Quote from: Kemper Boyd;751509Good recommendations, I am using those for my own thesis work right now.

Kershaw's one of my favorites because he doesn't really spread a lot of the more ludicrous speculation and because he knows how to write clearly. By academic standards, he's got one of the less boring writing styles, and he doesn't ramble.

Quote from: GRIM;751151See, now that's more like a valid criticism. Given the, better, contextual knowledge that the quotes etc are largely meant to take the piss out of people who hold those views and that the game as a whole is targeted on SJW tumblrists, does that change your view at all?

Not really.

For example, making up jokes based on real mental illnesses just seems crass, whereas if you really wanted to poke fun at the way people discuss these things in internet culture you could junk cards like Depressed/Bipolar/Autistic/etc. and replace them with "Self-Diagnosed With A Fashionable Disorder".

After all, it's not people who actually have those conditions which are the problem, and some tumblr and other online communities are really helpful support groups for those people. At the same time, people who latch onto those diagnoses because they're fashionable excuses for being rude (as I have seen people do with Asperger's) are a great example of internet users talking like they want to help out a marginalised group but actually hurting them by trying to piggyback on their issues for cool points.

If you want to satirise tumblr people who take this stuff too far, make the cards about the behaviours you object to, not the people they claim to be standing up for.

Nazi Germany was both left and right, if you apply rigid political concepts based on how people were sitting at Estates General 200 years ago. Seeing how nowadays there are conservative libertarians (lol), the very least that's needed is a Cartesian system.


I do gotta give GRIM his due, that he certainly brings circus around with him.
(http://pokaz.im/di-KTA8.gif)

Quote from: S'mon;751510They didn't feel themselves on the 'right side of history', which is a big attraction of modern SJW activism - as Orwell said, getting to be the guy with the boot stamping on the face of your enemies is a big thrill for a lot of people.

It is quite a shame that sometimes, the revolution is nothing but old crimes packaged in new lies.

Quote from: JeremyR;751498You mean people on the left.

Nazis = National Socialist Worker's Party. They were very, very left, at least compared to everyone but the Soviets.

And much of the opposition to Blacks in the 1960s was actually from Democrats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_Connor

It's really amazing how history gets re-written. Republicans free the slaves, keep the same policies for 100 years, yet somehow they are depicted as racists, while the actual racist party is now the champion, because they hand out free phones...

The Nazis weren't left-wing, they were clearly right-wing.  The opposition to the blacks in the '60s came from Democrats because the Dixiecrats controlled the Democratic party machines in the South in those days and because of the leftover baggage from the fact that the Republicans were the party of Reconstruction a century earlier, and it goes to show you just how "Democrat" the Dixiecrats were that they promptly dropped everything and became Republicans the minute the left pushed for desegregation.  And the Republican party didn't "free the slaves," but the Lincoln wing of the party would fit most comfortably on the Democratic side today, focused as they were on laborer rights and the like.

Just because these things use certain names does not mean there are not significant complexities at work.

Quote from: Warthur;751517Not really.

For example, making up jokes based on real mental illnesses just seems crass, whereas if you really wanted to poke fun at the way people discuss these things in internet culture you could junk cards like Depressed/Bipolar/Autistic/etc. and replace them with "Self-Diagnosed With A Fashionable Disorder".

After all, it's not people who actually have those conditions which are the problem, and some tumblr and other online communities are really helpful support groups for those people. At the same time, people who latch onto those diagnoses because they're fashionable excuses for being rude (as I have seen people do with Asperger's) are a great example of internet users talking like they want to help out a marginalised group but actually hurting them by trying to piggyback on their issues for cool points.

If you want to satirise tumblr people who take this stuff too far, make the cards about the behaviours you object to, not the people they claim to be standing up for.

IMO it wouldn't really have worked then, it would have been too overwrought.

Quote from: JeremyR;751498You mean people on the left.

Nazis = National Socialist Worker's Party. They were very, very left, at least compared to everyone but the Soviets.

And much of the opposition to Blacks in the 1960s was actually from Democrats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_Connor

It's really amazing how history gets re-written. Republicans free the slaves, keep the same policies for 100 years, yet somehow they are depicted as racists, while the actual racist party is now the champion, because they hand out free phones...

The Nazi party comprised left-wing elements as well as right-wing but Hitler came to power through the support of right-wing conservatives -  the middle classes , the peasants and agricultural workers who switched their vote from the right wing DNVP to the Nazi party.

Agree on Republicans and Democrats but I was talking about the KKK which is anti-communist , anti-immigration and white nationalist -  which suggests right wing to me.

Quote from: JeremyR;751498You mean people on the left.

Nazis = National Socialist Worker's Party. They were very, very left, at least compared to everyone but the Soviets.

And much of the opposition to Blacks in the 1960s was actually from Democrats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_Connor

It's really amazing how history gets re-written. Republicans free the slaves, keep the same policies for 100 years, yet somehow they are depicted as racists, while the actual racist party is now the champion, because they hand out free phones...

Well, this thread's officially jumped the shark.  Congrats on going lower than the purple thread.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;751525The Nazis weren't left-wing, they were clearly right-wing.  The opposition to the blacks in the '60s came from Democrats because the Dixiecrats controlled the Democratic party machines in the South in those days and because of the leftover baggage from the fact that the Republicans were the party of Reconstruction a century earlier, and it goes to show you just how "Democrat" the Dixiecrats were that they promptly dropped everything and became Republicans the minute the left pushed for desegregation.  And the Republican party didn't "free the slaves," but the Lincoln wing of the party would fit most comfortably on the Democratic side today, focused as they were on laborer rights and the like.

Just because these things use certain names does not mean there are not significant complexities at work.

Yes , it was a complex situation thats why I didn't mention party names. Really I meant the KKK and it's supporters.

Quote from: Simon Owen;751528The Nazi party comprised left-wing elements as well as right-wing but Hitler came to power through the support of right-wing conservatives -  the middle classes , the peasants and agricultural workers who switched their vote from the right wing DNVP to the Nazi party.

Agree on Republicans and Democrats but I was talking about the KKK which is anti-communist , anti-immigration and white nationalist -  which suggests right wing to me.

Broadly speaking (non-Marxist) socialism is about equality before the law, the prevention/elimination of domineering and controlling elites (hereditary, plutocratic etc) and the state acting as a guarantor of rights and administrator of laws.

Nazism on the other hand greatly expanded the state, set up elites on basis of race, class, money, corporatised the state and was based on the inequality between the ubermensch and untermensch.

Despite the name, Nazism was definitively right wing, but an authoritarian and extreme right wing. Even Tea Partiers and UKIPpers for their many nastinesses are not comparable to the Nazis any more than Democrats or Labour are comparable to Stalinism. It's ridiculous hyperbole and it's unnecessary in order to critique either.

Quote from: Zeea;751486Yes, exactly. I have absolutely no reason to support being able to get married and not getting beaten up for going to the bathroom except wanting to control people, and my master plan is to persecute people in the vital field of "one forum about a niche hobby." Really, you sound paranoid and ridiculous. This is what happens in an echo chamber.

That's not what I meant and you know it. Trans , lesbian and gay people should have equal rights. It's just that a lot of unpleasant people with their own agendas have jumped on the bandwagon and are using it to run people over with.

Quote from: GRIM;751531Broadly speaking (non-Marxist) socialism is about equality before the law, the prevention/elimination of domineering and controlling elites (hereditary, plutocratic etc) and the state acting as a guarantor of rights and administrator of laws.

Nazism on the other hand greatly expanded the state, set up elites on basis of race, class, money, corporatised the state and was based on the inequality between the ubermensch and untermensch.

Despite the name, Nazism was definitively right wing, but an authoritarian and extreme right wing. Even Tea Partiers and UKIPpers for their many nastinesses are not comparable to the Nazis any more than Democrats or Labour are comparable to Stalinism. It's ridiculous hyperbole and it's unnecessary in order to critique either.

The people who voted for the National Socialists were all right wingers because they thought it was the best party to defeat Marxism and to deal with the prevalence of Judaism in German society. Many of them had previously voted for the extreme right-wing DVNP which saw it's support slump in the early 1930s.

Most academics would consider the Nazis to be a far right authoritarian party. However the Nazi party did have left-wing aspects to it in that it wanted to nationalise industry and provide free education for gifted children.

Quote from: GRIM;751526IMO it wouldn't really have worked then, it would have been too overwrought.

Too overwrought, or not controversial enough?

Honestly, even with the description of the rules provided, the game doesn't come off as people misappropriating identities for social currency, but instead about people applying labels to others in order to denigrate them.

Instead of "lying for attention on the internet, the game" you've ended up with "bigotry and name-calling, the game."

Munchkin works because it comments on behaviors and embraces puns. Were it to instead have focused on the types of nerds it would have fallen flat, and come off as divisive. Gloom works because it embraces the dark comedy of fictional,  archetypal and flawed characters living through and then dying from absurdly grim circumstances.

Even if you had hit your target message, there isn't enough nuance or sensitivity to show that you aren't conflating your 'satire' of people's bad behaviors with 'legitimate' social issues.

Only judging from the cards available in preview, I can only assume you also showed a lack of imagination by not embracing the absurd. You had an opportunity to present the social statuses on the cards with ludicrous obviously fictional social statuses, which would be more interesting, humorous, and less divisive.

I know you think you've been clever and everyone's missing the point, but you actually just come off as someone who's either intentionally controversial and divisive, or petty and lacking in self awareness.

Quote from: GRIM;751488I know I said I wouldn't comment any more, but I'll just leave THIS (http://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/2014/05/22/worldgothday-privileged-to-pay-it-back/) here.

Here is the link to the World Goth Fair in Second Life , all proceeds go to the Sophie Lancaster Foundation.

http://worldgothfair.wordpress.com/ (//World%20Goth%20Fair%20in%20Second%20Life)

Quote from: Zeea;751471I'm very aware, and have discussed my position before on other sites, but would rather not get into it again. Let's just say I'm pretty sure she doesn't care for me now.

FWIW, I actually have a lot of respect for you on that angle.  I don't agree with the level of activism that you like to see, but I know you're a lot more invested in it than I am, so rock on I guess.  But so far you're the only person I know who actually calls her out on that crap.  Most of the other "SJW crowd" seems to turn a blind eye to her vicious crimes because they're political allies.  And worse the mods have sanctioned you for bringing it up, when it's very relevant.  If someone's soliciting money from me, I'd like to know just what they did that flies in the face of what they are trying to sell.

What she's doing?  It would be like me trying to come off as an anti-slavery advocate and make money writing books on the evils of slavery while owning and abusing slaves.  To quote Jesse Pinkman, "That's bullshit yo."

Quote from: Simon Owen;751481I wouldn't be surprised if many of the SJW's now on the left wouldn't have been the kind of people on the right persecuting the Jews in 1930s Germany or blacks in 1960s America. I don't think it's a matter of politics necessarily , its a matter of feeling self-important and wanting to be morally superior over other people. They want to be on the ' right side ' and then they can use that as a stick to beat other people with.

Herzl would disagree with you, and he never knew the Nazi's; nor probably would King, who blamed the silent majority.

Quote from: Rincewind1;751518I do gotta give GRIM his due, that he certainly brings circus around with him.
(http://pokaz.im/di-KTA8.gif)

He certainly does, and if not for this this circus, how many would know he even existed? I wouldn't.

Quote from: Adric;751534I know you think you've been clever and everyone's missing the point, but you actually just come off as someone who's either intentionally controversial and divisive, or petty and lacking in self awareness.

Well, he DID say Harlan Ellison is his hero.

And you've just described HE to a T for the last 25 years or so.

Quote from: Warthur;751517Not really.

For example, making up jokes based on real mental illnesses just seems crass, whereas if you really wanted to poke fun at the way people discuss these things in internet culture you could junk cards like Depressed/Bipolar/Autistic/etc. and replace them with "Self-Diagnosed With A Fashionable Disorder".

After all, it's not people who actually have those conditions which are the problem, and some tumblr and other online communities are really helpful support groups for those people. At the same time, people who latch onto those diagnoses because they're fashionable excuses for being rude (as I have seen people do with Asperger's) are a great example of internet users talking like they want to help out a marginalised group but actually hurting them by trying to piggyback on their issues for cool points.

If you want to satirise tumblr people who take this stuff too far, make the cards about the behaviours you object to, not the people they claim to be standing up for.

HE IS NOT MAKING FUN OF REAL MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES!  He is making fun of the tumblr and social justice assholes who make shit up in order to get attention.  He is making fun of real issues.  He is making fun of the assholes who twist those real issues like a parasite in order to make themselves feel special.

Tumblr is the last fucking place you want to go to if you have mental health issue.  99.9999% of these people are not experts and are just spewing shit out of their mouths.  There are better places and better people to talk to in real life that can set you up to the right track.

Quote from: Snowman0147;751641There are better places and better people to talk to in real life that can set you up to the right track.

Exactly! Go to Tangency and get some vibes.

Quote from: Dodger;751642Exactly! Go to Tangency and get some vibes.

I was actually talking about a actual doctor and real life support groups that can help you deal with your very real issues.

Quote from: Snowman0147;751643I was actually talking about a actual doctor and real life support groups that can help you deal with your very real issues.

Don't worry, his tongue is big enough for your pee hole too.

Loathe as I am to give Ettin money or credit, but this (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/130175/The-Edgy-Designer--A-Dungeon-World-Playbook) is fucking hilarious, and well worth all 59 pennies.

Quote from: Snowman0147;751641HE IS NOT MAKING FUN OF REAL MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES!

Well, it's the middle of the evening; I presume he's having dinner at the moment. The product that he wrote, though, yeah, that's making fun of people with real mental conditions.

Edit:  That was to Old Geezer.  Not to Ladybird.  Just want to clarify that.

Edit:  Deleted insult because it turns out Old Geezer wasn't insulting me.  He was insulting the other guy.

Quote from: Ladybird;751658Loathe as I am to give Ettin money or credit, but this (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/130175/The-Edgy-Designer--A-Dungeon-World-Playbook) is fucking hilarious, and well worth all 59 pennies.

I find it very off putting that these two guys are using a legitimate storefront as a platform to continue their little bitchfest.  It speaks very badly of our industry that this is happening.

*edit*  And if you're gonna sell something to "get back at him" Paul, at least have the guts to use your real name.  The fact that you actually spent a significant amount of time making this shows that you do in fact care, and are no better than him.  It's one thing to act the way you do on your own blog, or even TBP, but don't hijack DTRPG because you think you're funny.

Congrats on that.

Quote from: Ladybird;751658Well, it's the middle of the evening; I presume he's having dinner at the moment. The product that he wrote, though, yeah, that's making fun of people with real mental conditions.

If you focus on the cards themselves which yes they do have poor wording it does look like that.  Though if you look at GRIM's intentions, history with the social justice crowd, and how people love to rip him to shreds in the big purple you will begin to see the greater context.

Grim wasn't doing it to hurt anyone with real issues.  At least that is not his intention.  He was focusing on social justice warriors who self describe, or make up mental illnesses to get attention which is a far more greater insult to people with real mental health issues.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751665I find it very off putting that these two guys are using a legitimate storefront as a platform to continue their little bitchfest.  It speaks very badly of our industry that this is happening.

*edit*  And if you're gonna sell something to "get back at him" Paul, at least have the guts to use your real name.  The fact that you actually spent a significant amount of time making this shows that you do in fact care, and are no better than him.  It's one thing to act the way you do on your own blog, or even TBP, but don't hijack DTRPG because you think you're funny.

Congrats on that.

IMO, both are cashing in; I wonder how much they are making?

Notice, however, that Ettin, in the true internet SJW fashion of not actually helping anyone, isn't giving away half the proceeds to a real charity organization helping people, unlike Grim who is.

I would guess next to nothing.  Look both products are shit.  I am just amazed how people got all into a twist and got the message wrong.

Quote from: CRKrueger;751671Notice, however, that Ettin, in the true internet SJW fashion of not actually helping anyone, isn't giving away half the proceeds to a real charity organization helping people, unlike Grim who is.

This is also very true.

Quote from: CRKrueger;751671Notice, however, that Ettin, in the true internet SJW fashion of not actually helping anyone, isn't giving away half the proceeds to a real charity organization helping people, unlike Grim who is.

Honestly, I hadn't paid that much attention; but, good for GRIM though, kudos to him.

Quote from: CRKrueger;751671Notice, however, that Ettin, in the true internet SJW fashion of not actually helping anyone, isn't giving away half the proceeds to a real charity organization helping people, unlike Grim who is.

Alright, that's a fair point.

So here's the deal; I paid 59p for Ettin's thing. I won't buy anything from Grim, but even if I did buy a copy of Privilege, that would effectively only be a £3 donation.

So pick a charity, that operates in the UK, and I'll donate £10 to it - which might not be a lot, but is more than I would have donated tonight otherwise. If you don't respond in the next hour, then it'll go to a local cancer charity (http://clanhouse.org/).

Quote from: Snowman0147;751659Go stick your tongue in your pee hole.

Edit:  That was to Old Geezer.  Not to Ladybird.  Just want to clarify that.

You might want to work on your reading comprehension.  I was agreeing with you.

Quote from: Old Geezer;751686You might want to work on your reading comprehension.  I was agreeing with you.

FUCK!  I thought you were insulting me.  I am sorry.  Would you accept my apology?

Quote from: Ladybird;751678If you don't respond in the next hour, then it'll go to a local cancer charity (http://clanhouse.org/).

That one looks good.

Hell man, I wasn't calling you out on anything, just pointing out the irony.  

Grim may have done it in a lowbrow, bad taste fashion, but the criticism is correct.  The SJW crowd at purple is such an outrageously bad joke, that it kind of deserves that level of humor.  The fact that Zeea crows about their newfound "influence" and "power" only hangs a lampshade on the joke for everyone to see and the joke's not funny, it's really pretty sad.

The Shanna Germain incident basically proved the one thing rpg.net is not about, is rpgs.  Not anymore.

Quote from: Snowman0147;751687FUCK!  I thought you were insulting me.  I am sorry.  Would you accept my apology?

It will include pee-hole tonguing, or a lot of beer I expect.

Quote from: Snowman0147;751687FUCK!  I thought you were insulting me.  I am sorry.  Would you accept my apology?

No problem.

Quote from: CRKrueger;751694It will include pee-hole tonguing, or a lot of beer I expect.

Well, I never pass up a beer.  If he's ever at GaryCon he can buy me one.

Gosh we took a long time to get to the Nazis.

Quote from: tzunder;751699Gosh we took a long time to get to the Nazis.

Too quick for you Brits, eh?

Quote from: Snowman0147;751641HE IS NOT MAKING FUN OF REAL MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES!  He is making fun of the tumblr and social justice assholes who make shit up in order to get attention.  He is making fun of real issues.  He is making fun of the assholes who twist those real issues like a parasite in order to make themselves feel special.

I have no doubt that that's his intention, but the point is that that isn't how some of the cards come across.

The description of the product is simply the strawman they've chosen to dress me as. It's about 180 degrees from who I am.

I'll be the better man.

Quote from: GRIM;751705The description of the product is simply the strawman they've chosen to dress me as. It's about 180 degrees from who I am.

I'll be the better man.

You really oughta get rid of that enemies list of yours you keep on twitter to make that stick.

Quote from: CRKrueger;751693Hell man, I wasn't calling you out on anything, just pointing out the irony.

It's cool. You were right, though; as a result of this fuckup, Grim is going to do something to make the world better, while Ettin isn't.

Anyway. Donation made.

Quote from: Rincewind1;751700I know, if we'd leave it up to Brits, it'd take us a better part of the year, like back in '39.

Well, now you guys have all invaded the UK, so I guess we're evens.

(I've never actually met a polish worker I didn't like. Technically I have a polish hairdresser; or rather, a kinda pretty, kinda mumsy polish woman once told me that she was going to be my hairdresser.)

Quote from: Snowman0147;750672Look when it comes to real cases of civil rights sign me up for it.  I will help, vote, and try my best to improve the quality of life for other people.  

I am 100% confident in stating that no.  No, you won't.  Otherwise you'd be doing that instead of bitching about the Internet's reaction to a shitty game.

You know.  Kind of like the SJW's you hate so much.

Quote from: Ladybird;751708Well, now you guys have all invaded the UK, so I guess we're evens.

(I've never actually met a polish worker I didn't like. Technically I have a polish hairdresser; or rather, a kinda pretty, kinda mumsy polish woman once told me that she was going to be my hairdresser.)

History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it.

 -Winston Churchill

Quote from: CRKrueger;751694It will include pee-hole tonguing, or a lot of beer I expect.

I will setting for giving beer.  Beer the universal language of peace.  Well...  till your drunk and want to brawl.

Will you also hold hands and sing songs? :cheerleader:

What's funnier than the playbook (and I've seen a couple funny excerpts) is the backpedalling and dodging going on in the thread about the playbook when someone asked Ettin which charity he was giving his profits to.

Ladybird probably did more good in the real world today then Ettin has done the entire time he's been doing the SJW schtick at awful purple.

Quote from: Rincewind1;751747Will you also hold hands and sing songs? :cheerleader:

Not only that, we will dance the Tango.

But only if I lead.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751665I find it very off putting that these two guys are using a legitimate storefront as a platform to continue their little bitchfest.  It speaks very badly of our industry that this is happening.

*edit*  And if you're gonna sell something to "get back at him" Paul, at least have the guts to use your real name.  The fact that you actually spent a significant amount of time making this shows that you do in fact care, and are no better than him.  It's one thing to act the way you do on your own blog, or even TBP, but don't hijack DTRPG because you think you're funny.

Congrats on that.

Nothing like promoting cross-site drama there Ettin, or whoever it is.

Quote from: CRKrueger;751671Notice, however, that Ettin, in the true internet SJW fashion of not actually helping anyone, isn't giving away half the proceeds to a real charity organization helping people, unlike Grim who is.

This I like and respect.

Quote from: Ladybird;751678Alright, that's a fair point.

So here's the deal; I paid 59p for Ettin's thing. I won't buy anything from Grim, but even if I did buy a copy of Privilege, that would effectively only be a £3 donation.

So pick a charity, that operates in the UK, and I'll donate £10 to it - which might not be a lot, but is more than I would have donated tonight otherwise. If you don't respond in the next hour, then it'll go to a local cancer charity (http://clanhouse.org/).

This I also like and respect. Fair play to you.

Quote from: GRIM;751705The description of the product is simply the strawman they've chosen to dress me as. It's about 180 degrees from who I am.

I'll be the better man.

The difference being:

Grim - I mock hippies
Ettin - I mock THAT hippy there because he's a piece of shit.

IMHO.

I've come out in several places (oo-er! Calm down OG, no dick jokes please!) with my opinion on how Social Justice Warriors have "poisoned the well". An comment I received back stated:

QuoteI have restrained myself from commenting because there are a few people I'm working with who are involved in the discussion/work in the industry/are present on the site.

That is how it is. Discussion is co-opted by the pearly-swine and those who would speak up don't for fear of reprisals both personally and professionally.

Fuck. That. McCarthy era, or am I overstating the comparison?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751238I admit, I had to look this up :o


Can anyone please explain to my simple mind how Holdren can describe a game where it's awesome to be a lawyer defending a rapist and that's all cool, but if someone says rape can be a powerful plot point in fiction then they are advocating rape themselves?

Anyone?  Maybe if I rub two sticks together one of the mods over there can answer this, because it makes no sense to me.

Is that the game where the defendant is automatically assumed to be guilty?

Quote from: Old Geezer;751753Not only that, we will dance the Tango.

But only if I lead.

I thought it would be like the whoville at Christmas time and no I am not talking about the god awful movie that Jim Carrey did either.  I am talking about the old school half and hour long cartoon that is a true classic.

Righteous Snap would have been much better.

Quote from: One Horse Town;751759Righteous Snap would have been much better.

You forgot self.

Quote from: Rincewind1;751761You forgot self.

I dunno. I'm fed up with the whole deal. Someone writes something stupid and offensive and rightly catches flack for it, while this other guy over there somewhere writes something equally offensive and gets a free pass just 'cos.

There's a scattergun approach being employed that gets people who are barely involved, you get sarky shits who aren't just happy with you agreeing with them - you have to show the mandated level of offense and step up to hit the piggy on a rope, or you know, you're as bad as Hitler.

It's very depressing and i'm glad that in reality about 1% of the people on RPG forums bother getting involved, but it's really does poison everything.

Gaming should not be a political tool and it is becoming one.

Gaming should be fun escapism and i support minorities being reflected properly in their hobby of choice. However, gaming itself shouldn't be about real-life politics in a fictional milieu - sure, hold a mirror up to reflect your views and wishes, but for fuck sake don't piss in the fun pot to do it.

Quote from: Kemper Boyd;751707You really oughta get rid of that enemies list of yours you keep on twitter to make that stick.

Can't sleep (the missus is running an online event for World Goth Day and pumping bass makes it hard to sleep), so may as well answer this.

It's not an enemies list. It's a list of arseholes (sexists. SWERFs TERFs, racists, goons, symbiotic trolls, sincere trolls and general purpose wankers) that I have blocked, but want to keep an eye on for when the next outrage du jour comes along.

Quote from: CRKrueger;751693That one looks good.

Hell man, I wasn't calling you out on anything, just pointing out the irony.  

Grim may have done it in a lowbrow, bad taste fashion, but the criticism is correct.  The SJW crowd at purple is such an outrageously bad joke, that it kind of deserves that level of humor.  The fact that Zeea crows about their newfound "influence" and "power" only hangs a lampshade on the joke for everyone to see and the joke's not funny, it's really pretty sad.

The Shanna Germain incident basically proved the one thing rpg.net is not about, is rpgs.  Not anymore.

Another reason that parody is hard is that some people can't get parody.

Read GRIM's post talking about how he believes "SJWs" have power, then read that entry in that context. We're on an offshoot of a tiny niche site, talking about games that almost nobody plays anymore. The purple site finally banning people who are total jackasses is literally the only power I've ever seen "SJWs" have anywhere. Mild influence over a couple sites in a hobby where the most influential industry figures are still completely unknown to everyone outside the hobby* is not really power and it's pretty ludicrous to complain about it.

*Gary Gygax (Futurama appearances and the like), Michael Stackpole (X-Wing series and other books), and Sandy Peterson (id Software's DooM) are the only exceptions I can think of. I think GRRM is a gamer, but I don't know if he ever published game stuff.

Quote from: Zeea;751797about games that almost nobody plays anymore.

I am gone for a few days and 4e threads crop on RPGsite?

Quote from: One Horse Town;751764I dunno. I'm fed up with the whole deal. Someone writes something stupid and offensive and rightly catches flack for it, while this other guy over there somewhere writes something equally offensive and gets a free pass just 'cos.

There's a scattergun approach being employed that gets people who are barely involved, you get sarky shits who aren't just happy with you agreeing with them - you have to show the mandated level of offense and step up to hit the piggy on a rope, or you know, you're as bad as Hitler.

It's very depressing and i'm glad that in reality about 1% of the people on RPG forums bother getting involved, but it's really does poison everything.

Gaming should not be a political tool and it is becoming one.

Gaming should be fun escapism and i support minorities being reflected properly in their hobby of choice. However, gaming itself shouldn't be about real-life politics in a fictional milieu - sure, hold a mirror up to reflect your views and wishes, but for fuck sake don't piss in the fun pot to do it.

First of all - I just meant that as a drive by joke, as in you literally forgot (Self) Righteous etc. etc. ;)

Second of all - I understand you and even agree to a part, except for the part about "rightful flack", but that is something we will differ on - I think everything should go, while you think that you should treat both ends of the same spectrum similar, as in with flak.

Quote from: Zeea;751797Another reason that parody is hard is that some people can't get parody.

Read GRIM's post talking about how he believes "SJWs" have power, then read that entry in that context. We're on an offshoot of a tiny niche site, talking about games that almost nobody plays anymore. The purple site finally banning people who are total jackasses is literally the only power I've ever seen "SJWs" have anywhere. Mild influence over a couple sites in a hobby where the most influential industry figures are still completely unknown to everyone outside the hobby* is not really power and it's pretty ludicrous to complain about it.

*Gary Gygax (Futurama appearances and the like), Michael Stackpole (X-Wing series and other books), and Sandy Peterson (id Software's DooM) are the only exceptions I can think of. I think GRRM is a gamer, but I don't know if he ever published game stuff.

If you look over on their 'Edgy Designer' thread you'll see they have degenerated into Oppression Olympics, which is just perfect. Literally life mirroring art.

If you think PC was only about the RPG situation, you're wrong. The issue is much broader and the social and political power much more powerful. Consider proposed trigger warnings in academia, the erosion of presumption of innocence in campus sexual assault cases and even calls for presumption of guilt in courts. Consider Suey Park being taken seriously and interviewed and feted. Consider Anita Sarkeesian - a _known_ fraud being presented with an award. Consider the destructive effect SJWs had on the Occupy movement and on New Atheism. Consider the chilling effect on computer game innovation, comics, analogue gaming etc.

RPGs are more vulnerable because they're a smaller niche but there's a common pattern in division and censure, rarely bringing anything new but rather trying to shut down and change the existing things people love.

It isn't that I am against racial, sexual or gender equality but rather that the SJWs aren't for it and are often some of the most hateful, bigoted shitbags it has ever been my misfortune to encounter.

Quote from: GRIM;751803If you look over on their 'Edgy Designer' thread you'll see they have degenerated into Oppression Olympics, which is just perfect. Literally life mirroring art.

If you think PC was only about the RPG situation, you're wrong. The issue is much broader and the social and political power much more powerful. Consider proposed trigger warnings in academia, the erosion of presumption of innocence in campus sexual assault cases and even calls for presumption of guilt in courts. Consider Suey Park being taken seriously and interviewed and feted. Consider Anita Sarkeesian - a _known_ fraud being presented with an award. Consider the destructive effect SJWs had on the Occupy movement and on New Atheism. Consider the chilling effect on computer game innovation, comics, analogue gaming etc.

RPGs are more vulnerable because they're a smaller niche but there's a common pattern in division and censure, rarely bringing anything new but rather trying to shut down and change the existing things people love.

It isn't that I am against racial, sexual or gender equality but rather that the SJWs aren't for it and are often some of the most hateful, bigoted shitbags it has ever been my misfortune to encounter.

Nothing, but truth had been spoken in here.  If I had it my way I would vanish them and the other hateful trolls as well.  The world would be better off without them.

Quote from: GRIM;751803If you look over on their 'Edgy Designer' thread you'll see they have degenerated into Oppression Olympics, which is just perfect. Literally life mirroring art.

If you think PC was only about the RPG situation, you're wrong. The issue is much broader and the social and political power much more powerful. Consider proposed trigger warnings in academia, the erosion of presumption of innocence in campus sexual assault cases and even calls for presumption of guilt in courts. Consider Suey Park being taken seriously and interviewed and feted. Consider Anita Sarkeesian - a _known_ fraud being presented with an award. Consider the destructive effect SJWs had on the Occupy movement and on New Atheism. Consider the chilling effect on computer game innovation, comics, analogue gaming etc.

RPGs are more vulnerable because they're a smaller niche but there's a common pattern in division and censure, rarely bringing anything new but rather trying to shut down and change the existing things people love.

It isn't that I am against racial, sexual or gender equality but rather that the SJWs aren't for it and are often some of the most hateful, bigoted shitbags it has ever been my misfortune to encounter.

This sounds a lot like someone complaining that the existing power structure is changing and they don't like it, and then some claims about whether some individuals I've never heard of should be listened to.

Why did you write cards that specifically target real demographics (both marginalized ones and otherwise) as opposed to absurd, fictional ones or the behaviors you wished to satirize?

It seems in your posts about your game, the behavior you take umbrage at is people misappropriating identities or a sense of oppression, but the mechanics of your game actually mimic people calling each other names, before 'true identities' are revealed.

Quote from: Adric;751820Why did you write cards that specifically target real demographics (both marginalized ones and otherwise) as opposed to absurd, fictional ones or the behaviors you wished to satirize?

Why not? Why not use satire to critic, question, undermine, lampoon?

Why are some topics, some people, some choices and other inherent behaviours off-limits from analysis and "inclusion" in the great wide world of satire and buffoonery?

There are no limits, there is no line in the sand. There should not be, there must not be. Because as soon as you start protecting special interests and start inhibiting discourse you end free expression and freedom of thought.

There are no lines in the sand. Erase the lines. Question, mock, interrogate fucking everything.

And when you do you discover the real motives, the real backgrounds, the real stories. It is not about fearing change, it is about fighting for the freedom and the ability to think and act like a rational human being.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;751833Why not? Why not use satire to critic, question, undermine, lampoon?

Why are some topics, some people, some choices and other inherent behaviours off-limits from analysis and "inclusion" in the great wide world of satire and buffoonery?

There are no limits, there is no line in the sand. There should not be, there must not be. Because as soon as you start protecting special interests and start inhibiting discourse you end free expression and freedom of thought.

There are no lines in the sand. Erase the lines. Question, mock, interrogate fucking everything.

And when you do you discover the real motives, the real backgrounds, the real stories. It is not about fearing change, it is about fighting for the freedom and the ability to think and act like a rational human being.

If your justification for acting offensively is "because I should be allowed to." that's a terrible reason. Sure, you're allowed to be as offensive as you like, but everyone else is allowed to tell you that's offensive, and they need no special qualification or justification beyond the fact that they find your actions offensive.

Just because you have the right to say anything you want, that doesn't immediately give everyone else the responsibility to listen to you or include you. Sure, nothing is sacred, least sacred of all is a shitty opinion.

If people are actively making a community worse, exclude them from the community.

My question for Grim wasn't "How dare you do this?" it was "If your goal is X, why did you pursue a course which resulted in Y?"

Quote from: Adric;751837If people are actively making a community worse, exclude them from the community.

Heh, try "If people disagree with us in any way, shape or form they are insane, deluded and/or evil and their arguments (and eventually them) must be done away with."  Fanatical ideology, same shit, different day.  

Kids swing right or left in High School and then veer more violently the other way in college.  Unfortunately, the fringes on both ends are becoming nuttier and scarier by the day, leading fewer and fewer to waking up and actually thinking.  Add in the inherent passivity and recognition seeking performances of the internet generation and you get a perfect storm of nothing but awful purple shit.

Quote from: CRKrueger;751843Heh, try "If people disagree with us in any way, shape or form they are insane, deluded and/or evil and their arguments (and eventually them) must be done away with."  Fanatical ideology, same shit, different day.  

Kids swing right or left in High School and then veer more violently the other way in college.  Unfortunately, the fringes on both ends are becoming nuttier and scarier by the day, leading fewer and fewer to waking up and actually thinking.  Add in the inherent passivity and recognition seeking performances of the internet generation and you get a perfect storm of nothing but awful purple shit.

I haven't said they aren't allowed to say or do what they want, or that they "must be done away with." I've said they don't have an immediate right to be listened to or be included in a social group. This isn't excluding someone because of who they are, this is excluding them because their actions and words negatively impact the group.

Quote from: GRIM;751803Consider the chilling effect on computer game innovation, comics, analogue gaming etc..

Oh okay, I'll bite. What innovation in video games is being held back by SJW's? Especially when you consider;

* The AAA gaming space has became increasingly hit-dominated, with publishers relying on a few major hits a year. Innovation is a big risk, and publishers are very risk-averse these days. This will only get worse as the cost of development increases.
* One of the most lauded games out of the indie space last year was basically about reading a lesbian teenager's diary (I haven't played Gone Home; there may be subtleties I have missed there)
* Recent 'controversies' (Like, say, Tomodachi Life) have been about wanting to be included as well, rather than instead of something else

Quote from: Ladybird;751858Oh okay, I'll bite. What innovation in video games is being held back by SJW's?

More advanced jiggle physics. The Wii U was going to have an entire extra processor devoted to it, but then a fourteen-year-old made a wicked Tumblr post lambasting it and they had to lay off the entire jiggle physics department.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;751754Fuck. That. McCarthy era, or am I overstating the comparison?

I thought fundamentalist religion personally , but that's a good comparison.

No person who did evil ever thought they were doing something evil , they all thought they were doing the right thing.

Quote from: Adric;751850I haven't said they aren't allowed to say or do what they want, or that they "must be done away with." I've said they don't have an immediate right to be listened to or be included in a social group. This isn't excluding someone because of who they are, this is excluding them because their actions and words negatively impact the group.

No, your sentences contradict themselves; you are exactly eliminating people in a forum type situation. If you had ever worked for a real SJ type group, you would know that constructive engagement is a key tactic, not internet type shout-downs. Problem is, nobody is on the internet is who they say they are, so it is all some pointless game of one upmanship.

Quote from: CRKrueger;751843Heh, try "If people disagree with us in any way, shape or form they are insane, deluded and/or evil and their arguments (and eventually them) must be done away with."  Fanatical ideology, same shit, different day.  

Kids swing right or left in High School and then veer more violently the other way in college.  Unfortunately, the fringes on both ends are becoming nuttier and scarier by the day, leading fewer and fewer to waking up and actually thinking.  Add in the inherent passivity and recognition seeking performances of the internet generation and you get a perfect storm of nothing but awful purple shit.

QFT. Both the extreme left and the extreme right are truly horrible and truly weird. We're surrounded.

Quote from: Ladybird;751858Oh okay, I'll bite. What innovation in video games is being held back by SJW's? Especially when you consider;

* The AAA gaming space has became increasingly hit-dominated, with publishers relying on a few major hits a year. Innovation is a big risk, and publishers are very risk-averse these days. This will only get worse as the cost of development increases.
* One of the most lauded games out of the indie space last year was basically about reading a lesbian teenager's diary (I haven't played Gone Home; there may be subtleties I have missed there)
* Recent 'controversies' (Like, say, Tomodachi Life) have been about wanting to be included as well, rather than instead of something else

I agree with you here : there's only a few companies making games and they are playing to the crowd in the most part because the cost of making a game is so high. Anything a bit left field is going to be dismissed : remember Will Wright and all his problems with getting ' The Sims ' published ? Money is inherently conservative - businessmen know business and they don't always get creative types.
In computer games the SJW's are mainly politicians capitalising on the fears of ordinary people ( who don't play ) :  ' Grand Theft Auto ' has got hit several times over this with the ' Hot Coffee ' mod and the ' ZOMG ! You can have sex with a prostitute and then kill her ' thing.

Quote from: Zeea;751861More advanced jiggle physics. The Wii U was going to have an entire extra processor devoted to it, but then a fourteen-year-old made a wicked Tumblr post lambasting it and they had to lay off the entire jiggle physics department.

My God... you monsters! :mad: That 14 year old must. be. shunned! :hand:

Quote from: Zeea;751861More advanced jiggle physics. The Wii U was going to have an entire extra processor devoted to it, but then a fourteen-year-old made a wicked Tumblr post lambasting it and they had to lay off the entire jiggle physics department.

You know, that's a damn good point. If we assume that this universe is a simulation - and there's no reason not to (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis) - whoever designed it was fucking obsessed with their "soft object" physics algorithms.

Quote from: Adric;751820This sounds a lot like someone complaining that the existing power structure is changing and they don't like it, and then some claims about whether some individuals I've never heard of should be listened to.

Why did you write cards that specifically target real demographics (both marginalized ones and otherwise) as opposed to absurd, fictional ones or the behaviors you wished to satirize?

It seems in your posts about your game, the behavior you take umbrage at is people misappropriating identities or a sense of oppression, but the mechanics of your game actually mimic people calling each other names, before 'true identities' are revealed.

It's not about the existing power structure changing so much. That's incidental. Censorship has always been an issue and continues to be an issue under many power structures. As SJW influence becomes ascendant they're using their power in the same abusive manner as previous power structures have used blasphemy laws, anti-defamation laws, the UKs moronic libel laws and religious morality in order to censor.

The behaviour being satirised is the oppression olympics and the co-opting of real problems for point scoring. You can see this exact thing now happening in critical threads where they have descending into that exact behaviour. Without using the real issues there wouldn't have been as much bite to it. Many of the cards also make fun of other stereotypes and issues that people genuinely hold.

EG: The brown person card mocks several things at once. The (presumed) tendency of people to be unable to tell different races apart, people using racial identity as a bludgeon and that what's (presumably) a disadvantage elsewhere in life is an advantage in online 'debate'.

I no more hold the views on the cards (when views are expressed) than I hold the view that tiny evil grave-robbing pixies live in the walls of your house (Blood!) or that there are Nazi airships ('45) or that the UK has been swallowed up by a phantasmic cloud (ImagiNation).

And with that, I'm done. For reals this time. If people want to ask me more about this or any of the other BS that's being dredged up they can contact me privately.

Quote from: GRIM;751888The behaviour being satirised is the oppression olympics and the co-opting of real problems for point scoring. You can see this exact thing now happening in critical threads where they have descending into that exact behaviour. Without using the real issues there wouldn't have been as much bite to it. Many of the cards also make fun of other stereotypes and issues that people genuinely hold.



And with that, I'm done. For reals this time. If people want to ask me more about this or any of the other BS that's being dredged up they can contact me privately.

I know you may not reply here, but I do want to comment on something you said.

You spoke of people co-opting real problems to score points, of misappropriating causes to validate your position on the internet.  Some might say that by announcing you will donate some if your orofits to a certain trending charity, you are trying to buy goodwill for a product that is generating ill will, and trying to buy the "high ground" in a conflict.

Donating to a charity is great, promoting a charity is great, but it comes off that you're using a charity based on a tragedy to promote your game.  Coupled with your above statement you seem to be displaying the very behaviour you're condemning.

Damn you.

What I was trying to do was to recognise that people took it the wrong way and got upset (not just the people it was aimed at) and to redress the balance somewhat by giving to a good cause that I would hope we could all agree on.

Quote from: GRIM;751888EG: The brown person card mocks several things at once. The (presumed) tendency of people to be unable to tell different races apart, people using racial identity as a bludgeon and that what's (presumably) a disadvantage elsewhere in life is an advantage in online 'debate'.

See this is where the parody argument falls apart horribly and you aren't seeing the racist drek for what it is.  It god dam happens on a regular basis.  Its not satire.  Its you trying to posit a racist position as satire.

Quote from: GRIM;751888And with that, I'm done. For reals this time.

This only works if you then stop reading the thread. :D

I have to admit i encounter so much daily outrage online over something someone or some company did, said, released, tweeted, etc that it all sounds like white noise at this point to me. Alot of times it just feels like folks are trying to appear holier than thou or more in the know. It really seems to be overtaking some of the gaming and geek discussions. It is like there is this commitee that decides when its okay to laugh or enjoy something, when it is oppressive or crosses the line. I get that some things are genuinely offensive but usually the rage seems directed at things that are bad in a certain light. Not a comment on this product in particular. Don't know enough about its content.

I don't really want to get involved in a protracted discussion on the topic though so I will bow out having given my two cents.

Quote from: technoextreme;751924See this is where the parody argument falls apart horribly and you aren't seeing the racist drek for what it is.  It god dam happens on a regular basis.  Its not satire.  Its you trying to posit a racist position as satire.

... and this is where I have to say, disagree.

Not that racist drek doesn't happen all the time, it does, but this is a case o the context in which you judge what is/isn't "satire."

*I* am the person that the card is aimed at. I am the brown-card (or really yellowish card). I, and several other people, of whom I've shown this trainwreck "debate" to, anecdotally find it amusing. Here's the peculiar thing - I showed the "Brown Card" to seven people. Two of them were white (one being my wife),  and one  "didn't get it", and didn't find it funny. The one person identifies herself as very liberal. My wife was meh.

The rest - Asians, blacks, hispanics - all got a chuckle. We weren't laughing our asses off, but we understood the sentiment. Again this is anecdotal, but worth mentioning since it seems at least virtually, that minorities that seem to be represented by SJW's aren't proclaiming their relative ethnicities.

See, something that SJW's don't understand (among them 'satire' and 'parody') is 'racism'. Racism isn't about 'satire' or even discriminiation. It's about the emotional desire to DO those things in a specific manner. What I find disturbingly common is how loosely the term 'racism' is used in place of 'prejudice'. I'm not splitting hairs here. There are LIFE and DEATH differences.

There most certainly ARE people that are victims of real racism - but the SJW's in the Big Purple are certainly not doing *anyone* that experiences that kind of racism vs. what is really just ignorant prejudice, any favors.

As has been pointed out here: it reveals more about the SJW's themselves who are so strident and self-righteous in their "defense" of the apparent defenseless, they remove all capacity to have *any* kind of say in the matter.

And this is no different than being an ignorant asshole that causes as much damage because they're acting off of their own emotional outrage at themselves. But instead, they take it out on others enmasse like a bunch of fucking fascist douchebags.

You're not saving minorities by trying to squash someone's ethnic satire. You're not going to stamp out idiocy by banning words or thoughts - even bad ones. It's not better to override a persons capacity to choose what kind of information they can process for themselves - based on your emotional views of the world that *might not even be relevant*. Sorry, but generally<--- see that) if you're white, you're never going to "get" what being a black/hispanic/asian/martian is like in a predominantly white culture. That's not racist, that's just reality.

Those "differences" can be so preciously minute, that mature adults can indeed ignore them.

And MOST do. But nothing draws attention to those differences like an asshole starting a riot in order to shelter the world from that perceived acknowledgement of those differences, ESPECIALLY in satire.

At which point you might just have to back off and admit "you don't get it." - that's not a bad position. There's lots of things we as a species and as individuals "don't get". I don't get opera, yet I listen and play classical music. I can appreciate the differences though, but it's not my thing.

I don't get the attraction that gay men have for other men. But I can appreciate the fact that whatever it is they feel for one another must be *EXACTLY* what I feel for women. I can get that. But I will never pretend to know what it's like to be a gay man, even though some of my best friends are gay and I love them like brothers and I get a peek into their lives on very emotionally intimate levels. But that's as far as I can get. Just like they don't know what it's like to be in my interracial marriage where my in-laws hated me because I wasn't Christian and white. I guess they could have an interracial husband - but it still wouldn't be exactly the same. But you should understand the meaning...

 (re-edit- and if you don't, it means: you can gain by proximity an acceptance that goes beyond the ridiculous differences that *don't matter*. Conversely proximity without the ability or desire to understand can make those differences become emotional responses, SJW's call them "triggers" ugh, and by acting on them you deny those very people involved the ability to decide.)

SJW's dwell on the circumstances of differences that usually *don't* matter but only to the SJW's themselves. Or they have some other underlying motive to make an issue out of it.

Tenbones that reminds me of a blog post in Pundit's blog.

Wil Wheaton said that something something was his totem animal.  A SJW said that was racist and he should apologize.  So Wil did and gave his reason why he said it.  The SJW then said it wasn't good enough and it is problematic.  So she makes a big fuss about it.  Wil polite called out on that bullshit.

The main point is in another tumblr thread in which Pundit provided a link to has a actual native american.  She had no issue at all with the Wil using the totem animal.  In fact she was quite angry at the SJW and said that all SJWs should just get run over.

Quote from: Snowman0147;752011Tenbones that reminds me of a blog post in Pundit's blog.

Wil Wheaton said that something something was his totem animal.  A SJW said that was racist and he should apologize.  So Wil did and gave his reason why he said it.  The SJW then said it wasn't good enough and it is problematic.  So she makes a big fuss about it.  Wil polite called out on that bullshit.

The main point is in another tumblr thread in which Pundit provided a link to has a actual native american.  She had no issue at all with the Wil using the totem animal.  In fact she was quite angry at the SJW and said that all SJWs should just get run over.

To paraphrase a quote I've seen somewhere else on Indian clothes customs:

"Native American culture survived Trail of Tears. I'm pretty sure it won't be destroyed by some white guy getting a tribal tattoo of his totem animal."

Quote from: Snowman0147;752011Tenbones that reminds me of a blog post in Pundit's blog.

Wil Wheaton said that something something was his totem animal.  A SJW said that was racist and he should apologize.  So Wil did and gave his reason why he said it.  The SJW then said it wasn't good enough and it is problematic.

The Internet social Justice movement has completely spoiled that word for me. I practically break out in hives when I read it these days.

yeah when I originally posted that above... I was going to start citing examples of real racism I've experienced either first-hand or been witness to happening to others.

living for 25 years in Los Angeles (as I'm 100% sure anyone here living in any major city like it) will have stories to tell.

And frankly, I deleted it all because to SJW's it won't matter because they don't understand their own emotions are completely clouding the real issue. The hard part is that the very actions they pat themselves on the back for "championing" (ironically in a total passive and slacktivist manner usually) does nothing but become fuel for the idiots that *do* conflate racism with their entitlement.

It's one big circlejerk.

Quote from: Nexus;752022The Internet social Justice movement has completely spoiled that word for me. I practically break out in hives when I read it these days.

The "trigger-word" for me now is "trigger".


FUCKING UGH.

I think Key and Peele did it better.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pg6tfanYmY)

I'd really like to meet some of these social justice warriors that don't understand the difference between prejudice (personal bias) and racism (systematic oppression), or who use trigger warnings for everything (instead of criticizing the abuse of trigger warnings like I do, and like most of my friends do), or who think Wil Wheaton is a racist or Joss Whedon is a transphobe (or whatever stupid fucking thing that one random idiot on the internet somewhere believes).

Can you name the SJWs on rpg.net who have said any of that stuff you think they've said, tenbones?

Also, this?

"You're not saving minorities by trying to squash someone's ethnic satire. You're not going to stamp out idiocy by banning words or thoughts - even bad ones. It's not better to override a persons capacity to choose what kind of information they can process for themselves - based on your emotional views of the world that *might not even be relevant*. Sorry, but generally<--- see that) if you're white, you're never going to "get" what being a black/hispanic/asian/martian is like in a predominantly white culture. That's not racist, that's just reality. "

Yeah. Guess what? That's pretty much the number one thing we say. White people can't speak for black people, cisgender people can't speak for transgender people, straight people can't speak for gay people, etc. Being allies is great, but when some bad shit happens, people who aren't the targets should generally be supportive of the targets, not go off on their own crusade.

This ludicrous notion that "SJWs" are cynically appropriating other peoples' struggles for credit is ridiculous. You can say whatever you want about my rants against sexism or homophobia or transphobia, but I'm a gay transsexual woman and I talk about that stuff because it affects me directly. I've had people tell me I was going to hell, ask family members why they hadn't shot me for transitioning, send creepy propositions online, or treat me like an imbecile when they see my female usernames. So that's stuff I feel pretty inclined to discuss. That's the stuff many of my friends discuss, too. We're usually the ones who get cited as the SJWs over there, so I'm not sure who you're talking about.

GRIM's card game? Most of the people in that thread over there weren't "SJWs," but just regular users. I sure as heck haven't commented on that particular card, because that's not my place. As someone who is regularly labeled an "SJW", and as a woman, though? Sure, I have every damn right to comment on shit that's talking about me. (And my comments have been, "Your mechanic is funny, your cards aren't really that witty, and Ettin's game is funny." And Ettin's game _is_ funny, not because of who he targets, but because of gems like "you're so white bread, when you were born your mom dinged like a toaster." If GRIM had lines like that, this card game would have met with a lot less "this fucking sucks" from people who don't even like SJWs.)

Have you actually been over there lately, or kept track of who is saying what? Or are you just going off of things you hear here and assuming that the "rpg.net SJWs" are this big monolithic blob who are synonymous with Tumblr SJWs.*

*Seriously, we make fun of those folks more than people here do.

Try Pundit's blog (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2014/04/uncracked-monday-privilege-and-narrative.html) for starters.  Mind you this link will piss you off cause it certainly pisses me off.

Quote from: Snowman0147;752129Try Pundit's blog (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2014/04/uncracked-monday-privilege-and-narrative.html) for starters.  Mind you this link will piss you off cause it certainly pisses me off.

I don't see anything concrete there about rpg.net's "SJWs" that I happened to look at. I am, however, partially surprised that Pundit and I have the exact same views on social skill rules in RPG. But I won't derail with that since it has zero to do with this topic.

Quote from: Snowman0147;752011Tenbones that reminds me of a blog post in Pundit's blog.

Wil Wheaton said that something something was his totem animal.  A SJW said that was racist and he should apologize.  So Wil did and gave his reason why he said it.  The SJW then said it wasn't good enough and it is problematic.  So she makes a big fuss about it.  Wil polite called out on that bullshit.

The main point is in another tumblr thread in which Pundit provided a link to has a actual native american.  She had no issue at all with the Wil using the totem animal.  In fact she was quite angry at the SJW and said that all SJWs should just get run over.

I should take offence at this scummy SJW on behalf of my wife, for her racist-SJW assumption that whites can't have totem animals... my wife's part Finnish, and traditionally Elk Clan. Not that there's anything wrong with whites from non-Shamanic cultures having totem animals if they want!

Quote from: Zeea;752128Yeah. Guess what? That's pretty much the number one thing we say. White people can't speak for black people, cisgender people can't speak for transgender people, straight people can't speak for gay people, etc.

So...there weren't any straight white males posting in the Grim thread then, eh?  Because there aren't any straight white males on RPG.net who post there or on Tangency about SJW issues. :rolleyes:

BTW is Ettin gay, transgendered, a woman, or non-white?

Quote from: Zeea;752128This ludicrous notion that "SJWs" are cynically appropriating other peoples' struggles for credit is ridiculous. You can say whatever you want about my rants against sexism or homophobia or transphobia, but I'm a gay transsexual woman and I talk about that stuff because it affects me directly. I've had people tell me I was going to hell, ask family members why they hadn't shot me for transitioning, send creepy propositions online, or treat me like an imbecile when they see my female usernames. So that's stuff I feel pretty inclined to discuss. That's the stuff many of my friends discuss, too. We're usually the ones who get cited as the SJWs over there, so I'm not sure who you're talking about.

My guess would be the other 99% of Tangency.

Nothing to say about Ali, huh?  What a fucking shock.

Quote from: CRKrueger;752146Nothing to say about Ali, huh?  What a fucking shock.

Or maybe I already commented on it elsewhere way back when it was relevant and see no reason to waste time rehashing things for the benefit of some random jackass who's looking to score points, eh? I think Pundit's position is stupid, I think the university's position is stupid, I think Ali's position is stupid, and I think the whole thing is stupid. She's understandably lashing out from trauma, but that also very understandably alienates Muslim students who have nothing to do with what happened to her, so the university should have done some research and avoided problems for both sides. But that doesn't mean this is some referendum over whether women or Muslims get more protections, because this is a complicated situation. There's not always a clear good guy and bad guy.

Also, the notion of Ettin as an "SJW" stretches the concept so far that it's meaningless. But sure, go ahead and do that, since you're really just using it as a random meaningless slur that applies to anyone you dislike. Know what? You're an SJW now. How's that? :p

EDIT: Also, speaking for people? Nope. Backing them up? Sure. That's called being an ally. I don't want cisgender folks to decide what being transgender means, or how transgender people feel, or anything like that. But if transgender people as a whole ask for support on something legit, sure, that's fine and great. Much like it's good that there were white people supporting the black civil rights marches, but they weren't trying to run the show.

Quote from: Zeea;752128I'd really like to meet some of these social justice warriors that don't understand the difference between prejudice... etc. etc.

You're being cheeky with me right? heh. I was banned from RPGnet defending the accusations from the Usual Suspects *there* that Paizo writ-large are a bunch of racists because their creation, Golarion was "racist".

Now... I don't personally care to go back and sift through the detritus of that site (especially after this JD incident) - but as far as I know only the mods there have the ability to ban people. I didn't just ban myself. Nor do I wade into heated discussions seeking to be banned. (regardless of what you might assume, I'll put that to rest, just in case).

And the sycophantic that play Grima Wormtongue to those mods, who shout people down for merely asking questions and not even directly opposing them get carte blanche to break those very same rules? And you're okay with that? I'd be fine if they applied their rules consistently, but that's not what they do.

Hell, as far as I can tell, half the people on THIS forum have been banned from the Big Purple, and a lot of it has to do with the SJW attitude there. Are you being serious? Please tell me you're not.

Quote from: Zeea;752128Yeah. Guess what? That's pretty much the number one thing we say. White people can't speak for black people, cisgender people can't speak for transgender people, straight people can't speak for gay people, etc. Being allies is great, but when some bad shit happens, people who aren't the targets should generally be supportive of the targets, not go off on their own crusade.

*First* - I don't know who *you* are. Don't even pretend to aside from enjoying the discussion.

Second - This is a joke right? I've been inundated with SJW irony-humor so much in the last two-days that my detector is completely broken...

Quote from: Zeea;752128This ludicrous notion that "SJWs" are cynically appropriating other peoples' struggles for credit is ridiculous. You can say whatever you want about my rants against sexism or homophobia or transphobia, but I'm a gay transsexual woman and I talk about that stuff because it affects me directly. I've had people tell me I was going to hell, ask family members why they hadn't shot me for transitioning, send creepy propositions online, or treat me like an imbecile when they see my female usernames. So that's stuff I feel pretty inclined to discuss. That's the stuff many of my friends discuss, too. We're usually the ones who get cited as the SJWs over there, so I'm not sure who you're talking about.

Yeah - I don't think I was talking to you. As you yourself indicated... you're not sure who I'm talking about but decided to assume I was (I wasn't.) I think I've been pretty clear. to be be clear - it's not you. But if you want to rant at me about your particular issues... well I'm always open to discuss them.

Quote from: Zeea;752128GRIM's card game? Most of the people in that thread over there weren't "SJWs," but just regular users. I sure as heck haven't commented on that particular card, because that's not my place.

So, you're saying that you think this is about a card-game? I'm talking about a much larger picture generally. The emotional ranting and shit spawned by that forum, which btw I *NEVER* even knew who JD WAS until it blew up on that forum, was generated completely free of me. I was looking for something asinine relating to the race-thread concerning "Japs" here. And there that shit-storm was raging...

Whether you want to call the people at the Big Purple "Regulars" or not... the Mods *ARE* responsible for that site. And what do you have when the Mods themselves are participating in those very toxic mob rants? Sorry... You're wrong. And being an SJW has unfortunately become a pejorative for the *very* reason you're missing? You can't have it both ways. It can't be the chickens running the coop WHILE the guy owning the chickens is running around trying to fuck them all.

And in case you start telling me the Mods are allowed to have their opinion. Yes - I will agree. But then I will also say that they must then take full responsibility for the perception of their actions - and that means their entire site including the people that feel comfortable there, or as you put it, "the regulars". Because *those* people seem to be able to break the forum rules without penalty. And the mods themselves do it too.

The mere fact JD *IS* a game developer and that shitstorm is disguised as a discussion about a card-game is insulting to *everyone's* intelligence. If it weren't - we wouldn't be having this discussion would we?

Quote from: Zeea;752128As someone who is regularly labeled an "SJW", and as a woman, though? Sure, I have every damn right to comment on shit that's talking about me. (And my comments have been, "Your mechanic is funny, your cards aren't really that witty, and Ettin's game is funny." And Ettin's game _is_ funny, not because of who he targets, but because of gems like "you're so white bread, when you were born your mom dinged like a toaster." If GRIM had lines like that, this card game would have met with a lot less "this fucking sucks" from people who don't even like SJWs.)

So you obviously put a lot into labels. I think that's where you and I are on different continents emotionally. I wasn't referring to you (I don't pretend to know you, so knowing you're coming from this POV - you can put your guard down).

I long ago learned to discharge the idea that someone else gets to decide things for me. Sure you can do it on the surface as a point of reference. But my ego doesn't depend on such things. Actions define you. What you think you're thoughts are... are kinda cheap. What you do with them, that's where the rubber hits the road. Picking up a label and parading it around on an internet forum (as is the case in this topic on SJW's) isn't helping *anyone* who is suffering from real discriminatory threats. NO ONE.

Trying to tell people otherwise on the internet and worse: attacking their livelihood because of a groupthink spawned misconception is dangerous to this community. And whether I, or anyone here at RPGsite likes it or not, the people that go to the Big Purple *are* a big part of the internet gaming community (maybe not gaming writ-large). And it is troubling in the context of our hobby.

Quote from: Zeea;752128Have you actually been over there lately, or kept track of who is saying what? Or are you just going off of things you hear here and assuming that the "rpg.net SJWs" are this big monolithic blob who are synonymous with Tumblr SJWs.*

*Seriously, we make fun of those folks more than people here do.

I'm going to take you at face value. So if you're joking, I do apologize.

Yes I was "just over there". No I don't take down names of people who have "wronged me on the internet", I find that idea asinine. I also find the notion of your emotional investment in your view on this topic of identifying with a term like "SJW"... well, less than "well-thought", to be polite. The amount of conflation you're putting into the particulars of this issue based on *YOUR* personal issues is disingenuous at least, and outright ridiculous at most.

See the reason I don't "wring my hands" about those things is because I actually do participate in helping people with real issues in my real life. Just like I saved lives of people who shot at me during the King riots for thinking I was a Korean (yep in the heat of rioting, all slanted eyes look the same), just like I participate and host interfaith dialogs in my community, just like I deal with people in my own life who, like you, (assuming you're being serious) are trans-gendered, and gay. I work in healthcare now - it's my job to care, and I DO care, or I wouldn't be doing this professionally. It's something I derive great personal satisfaction out of. Especially when people who have issues and they come to me to try and see the bigger picture, other than the picture they concoct of reality that centers on... you guessed it: themselves.

*NO* one can stand up to the kind of scrutiny of one's own ego without great discipline.

That's why SJW's are often wrong in their execution of their ideas. They're taking their own emotional issues and steamrolling everyone involved in a cultural problem without allowing for the possibility that they, themselves, are part of the problem. And isn't *that* just it? Again, assuming you're serious - you have issues right? (hint: we all do) Why do you think that those issues don't impact how you apprehend your beliefs especially online?

One of the hardest things another human can do is understand and admit to themselves that other people have the capacity to feel emotion as strongly as yourself. Sounds obvious, but if you stop and consider how SJW discussions turn out most of the time... you'll see it's not reason that's being discussed. It's emotional invectives.

It's like the old saying: "you are the sum total of all your life's decisions. Hows that working for you?"

That's something most people with big issues don't want to acknowledge. It's easier to go crusading based on the principles that ones life is a series of bad results and circumstances, rather than addressing how you handled them in the aftermath.

So when you talk about your trans-gendered issues - I'm trying to relate from my experiences of trauma (which I won't go into details unless you wanna talk about it in PM's) but the sum of them for me is always about how you deal with it. I find that bickering with people to the point where you're going to: censor, /ignore, stalk, or go to the lengths of creating products as equally as crass as the accused by their OWN standards - is unproductive to say the least.

Is that how we want, as the gaming community, to comport ourselves? There's a reason this site exists... right?

Good post, tenbones. I've got to run a game now, and that's a lot to reply to so I'll have to maybe try later, but I just wanted to acknowledge that. But yes, I do have issues and generally try to acknowledge them publically so that people know what my biases are. Everyone is biased, and I don't usually trust people who claim to be objective.

Quote from: Zeea;752150EDIT: Also, speaking for people? Nope. Backing them up? Sure. That's called being an ally. I don't want cisgender folks to decide what being transgender means, or how transgender people feel, or anything like that. But if transgender people as a whole ask for support on something legit, sure, that's fine and great. Much like it's good that there were white people supporting the black civil rights marches, but they weren't trying to run the show.

Bullshit. That thread over there is a 50 page witchhunt & character assassination against Grim. That's why I went in to defend him and I got permabanned for my pains ( no citation as to which rule I had broken , McClennan just did it because he felt like it despite participating in that thread as a non-mod ). They broke their OWN rules by allowing attacks against a game designer ( Rule 2 ) and allowing a non-RPG topic on the RPG forum just to get at Grim. It was a lynch mob.
That's what SJW's are Zeea , a lynch mob who have formed a parasitic attatchment to the very people they portend to help. The Grim thread proves it.

EDIT : Great post tenbones , you said it much better than I did.

Quote from: Simon Owen;752154Bullshit. That thread over there is a 50 page witchhunt & character assassination against Grim. That's why I went in to defend him and I got permabanned for my pains.

I don't really know why people still bother to do this on rpgnet. It's like posting on Stormfront trying to explain that blacks and Jews aren't so bad, really. You are not dealing with well-meaning-but-misguided people. That should be very clear by now.

Quote from: Zeea;752150She's understandably lashing out from trauma, but that also very understandably alienates Muslim students who have nothing to do with what happened to her, so the university should have done some research and avoided problems for both sides.

So I'm sure you think you alienate all Christians when you talk about some Christian's homophobia, huh?  Or alienate all Jews when you talk about the West Bank, or alienate all US service men everywhere when you speak about Wounded Knee or My Lai, or all heterosexuals when you talk about Matthew Shepherd? Somehow I really fucking doubt it.

Quote from: ZeeaAlso, the notion of Ettin as an "SJW" stretches the concept so far that it's meaningless.

If by SJW, you mean someone who has fought for social justice I would agree.

Quote from: ZeeaBut sure, go ahead and do that, since you're really just using it as a random meaningless slur that applies to anyone you dislike.

Thought that was your Schtick.

Quote from: ZeeaKnow what? You're an SJW now. How's that? :p

By the definition above, I'm probably more one then Ettin.

Quote from: ZeeaEDIT: Also, speaking for people? Nope. Backing them up? Sure.

Ah, of course, when a whitey tells another whitey he's being racist towards black people, and his language is offensive to them, he's not speaking for black people, he's backing them up, right?  So your definition of speaking for vs. backing up is based on whether you like the speaker.

You crusade for your own cause, that's cool, but please don't expect anyone to believe that 90% of purple isn't affluent white college age kids without a single fucking hardship being your "ally" because it feeds their own sense of self worth.  Been on that merry go round, most of us have.

Quote from: Zeea;752128You can say whatever you want about my rants against sexism or homophobia or transphobia, but I'm a gay transsexual woman and I talk about that stuff because it affects me directly.

So this is actually a personal crusade for you. Gotcha.

I'm going back to gaming now. When I want to do some consciousness raising, I'll do it outside the internet where it may make a difference.

Quote from: CRKrueger;752160So I'm sure you think you alienate all Christians when you talk about some Christian's homophobia, huh?  Or alienate all Jews when you talk about the West Bank, or alienate all US service men everywhere when you speak about Wounded Knee or My Lai, or all heterosexuals when you talk about Matthew Shepherd? Somehow I really fucking doubt it.

Sometimes, sometimes, rarely, no, in that order. I have like four close friends who are evangelical conservative Christians and a couple of dozen acquaintances who are, since I don't hang around in echo chambers all day whining about a purple forum. Are you a fucking idiot or what?

Quote from: Nexus;752089I think Key and Peele did it better.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pg6tfanYmY)

Lol.

Trigger warning: this thread is closed.