Okay, before I delve into this I need to put a few things out, BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front)- I don't 'hate' the company as a whole.  Hell, I've loved this game since I was 13.  Nothing is going to change that unless it gets too absurd.  I know that the 'executive' guys that are looking at profits and the 'creative' guys aren't always in agreement on various things (and this came straight from an employee that was kind enough to help me get some answers about a model).  So to be clear, I really enjoy this game but there are quite a few gripes I have.  One thing you won't hear me gripe about too much here is the money- not that I disagree about the price points, but I'm just well aware that it's an expensive game.  I don't mind people saying something is overpriced, I'm totally aware that in 2006 a model was $15.00 but today that same model is $30.00.

First complaint/concern- I'm gonna throw down some pictures.  Then I'll explain what the issue I take with this is.

Kharn the Betrayer:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]340[/ATTACH]

Artemis, Deathwatch Captain

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Both of these models look really good assembled.  But if you look, you'll see the problem- they're much different from other models like this one:

Space Marine Captain:

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Now, that last model was a generic Captain.  I can do a lot with that model.  I can use another head, one of those cool Forge World Heresy-Era relic helmets.  I can give him a different weapon loadout.  With a bit of time and the right tools, I can make this guy unique.  Why not the other two?  No idea.  I'd love to take Artemis and plop an Ultramarines Praetorian or Honor Guard helmet on him to make him truly unique- fuck, man... I HATE painting flesh, and no Astartes with any sense would be running about without a helmet as lousy as I am controlling their army (I secretly wonder if my models had a personality, if they'd talk shit about me when I'm not around).  

The majority of the appeal of Warhammer 40k is that you can give your armies a unique flavor- especially armies like Deathwatch, Chaos, or even Tyranids.  But when models are cut up like this, it ruins their capability to be customized and it also ensures that they'll have an entirely static and un-customizable position.  Hell, the idea of making them versatile and modular is almost an assured extra profit.  And yet here's this bullshit.  Maybe it's to deter 'replicating' the character with existing bits?

Second Complaint/Concern:

Get ready to flip your shit on me, because I'm going to say something awful- Space Marines need to be more powerful on the tabletop- and by extension, Chaos Space Marines should be even more powerful.  The canon supports it- Space Marines are supposed to be killing machines on the battlefield, and Chaos Space Marines are generally older and have massive brawls in the Warp 'because it's Tuesday' and that tends to make you badass.  

For those not familiar with the tabletop game, there's something that a lot of new players find out the hard way- Space Marines are NOT that badass on the tabletop.  They have a good armor save and quite a bit of diversity with what they can do, but in no way whatsoever do they excel the way they do in the fiction.  To put it into perspective, a handful of those 'LOL guardsman' guys that the non-players say use 'flashlights' can put down a Space Marine squad.  At about 2-1, they can do pretty well.  And Stormtroopers/Kasrkins/Tempestus Scions can shred them at a range, too.

However, the caveat to this is that Space Marines should be more expensive in terms of points.  Basically, what Deathwatch and Grey Knights do in terms of a force should be the standard for Space Marines.  Small unit count, versatile weapons.  It would make more sense, especially because in quite a bit of the stories Space Marines are generally deployed in smaller groups for small-scale battles and even in larger battles they augment Guard forces.  

So, why don't they do this?  Well, because you won't buy more models.  As I understand, at one point Space Marines were fucking beasts on the battlefield, but then GW wanted people to buy more of them.  Instead of making more diverse troops with different capabilities, they just nerfed them.  Now, they finally do have that diversity, but never buffed them back.  I can't confirm this, it's a rumor... but there you have it.

No, the issue is that people were building custom heroes and not buying the expensive character models so they changed the game to be character centric and moved away from the easy modularity of the figures.  Fantasy, where ranking up makes a pretty solid argument for less dynamic figures got hit first but the mind set carries on in 40k.

In Rogue Trader, marines were WS 4, BS4, S 4, T3, I 4 and save 4+, weapons had save modifiers like -2 for bolt guns and shuriken catapults.  Eventually they all got flak under their powered armor bringing them to a 3+ save and got Toughness 4.  Third edition was quite a boost as the save modifiers became AP and cover was invulnerable.  After that it gets fuzzy for me but at one point they had a great core codex and Blood Angels and Grey Knights were horribly overpowered.

But the main problem with Games Workshop is that they let profits get in the way of good game design.  They want there to be imbalances and problems so they can sell a new edition every couple years.  Heck, they even made the legs of the space marines longer and changed the base size so they wouldn't look good with older figures.

Quote from: David Johansen;917231No, the issue is that people were building custom heroes and not buying the expensive character models so they changed the game to be character centric and moved away from the easy modularity of the figures.  Fantasy, where ranking up makes a pretty solid argument for less dynamic figures got hit first but the mind set carries on in 40k.

We have an old tournament rule when we have our 'fun tournaments'- no named characters.  Which is going to thoroughly dick with the Deathwatch I'm playing, but I'm probably going to convert over some old Sternguard vets.  I've got enough extra weapons and gear on the sprues to make some coolness happen.  And nearly every box comes with extra DW pauldrons.

Quote from: David Johansen;917231In Rogue Trader, marines were WS 4, BS4, S 4, T3, I 4 and save 4+, weapons had save modifiers like -2 for bolt guns and shuriken catapults.  Eventually they all got flak under their powered armor bringing them to a 3+ save and got Toughness 4.  Third edition was quite a boost as the save modifiers became AP and cover was invulnerable.  After that it gets fuzzy for me but at one point they had a great core codex and Blood Angels and Grey Knights were horribly overpowered.

Dark Angels were the ones that got nasty for a while, too.  And don't get me started on Grey Knights.  That 'chapter' is a joke, the only redeeming factor is their Terminator helmets are actually much cooler.

Quote from: David Johansen;917231But the main problem with Games Workshop is that they let profits get in the way of good game design.  They want there to be imbalances and problems so they can sell a new edition every couple years.  Heck, they even made the legs of the space marines longer and changed the base size so they wouldn't look good with older figures.

Yeah, and fortunately most of the good players are well aware.  Like, right now according to a rule in the DW Codex- I can apparently deep strike ANYTHING.  That includes my Land Raiders, apparently.  Of course, I won't do that because it's cheap and cheesy.  And then there's the flyer rules, and it's at a point right now where if you don't have a flyer and your opponent does, you're fucked.  The Anti-Air game is sorely lacking, and I can see why- no one wants to go out and shell out the cash for the model that eats up a slot and isn't much good for anything else.

The good news is, there's a lot more small-scale games coming out.  I recently ordered the Overkill game, and combined with some creativity we can make a sick-ass Deathwatch RPG 'board'.  Since only a handful of us play, I bought a Deathwatch Kill-Team and we're going to make our RPG characters.  Silly, but fun.  Plus, there's all kinds of cool models out there that can stand in for obscure Xenos (and I've got a shitload of Tyranids in a box somewhere).

Quote from: Crüesader;917168Get ready to flip your shit on me, because I'm going to say something awful- Space Marines need to be more powerful on the tabletop- and by extension, Chaos Space Marines should be even more powerful.  The canon supports it-

If the crunch matched the fluff, you'd only be able to field one Space Marine scout in a 2500 point game...
(Post may contain hyperbole)

Space marines get killed in droves in the fluff too. Alot of the older material depicts them so. Its the Terminators that are supposed to be uber tough.

Problem is. They are being pitted against equally uber tough units so in the end no one is uber tough.

Perhaps the fluff is all imperial propaganda?  That was certainly the take of the infamous "Movie Marines" article in White Dwarf.

Alternately, one marine represents one marine and one guardsman or termagant represents 100.

Quote from: David Johansen;918677Perhaps the fluff is all imperial propaganda?  That was certainly the take of the infamous "Movie Marines" article in White Dwarf.

I've always taken this as more accurate. In the RPG there's a better representation of the Astartes vs. Humans.  However, in most of the fiction the Astartes aren't usually going up against Guardsmen- at best, they're hitting some goob Chaos-slaves ore a ragtag gaggle of loons with antique autoguns that struggle to take down medium-sized game.  And you can't assume genestealer cultists have the same muscular strength as humans.

Las-rifles killing marines makes sense, because if ten dudes shoot one guy- that heat can only disperse so much before it cooks the Marine alive in his suit.  Plus, even in the fiction they talk about using overcharged Hot-Shots for stuff like that, so it's entirely possible that ONE guardsman can clip a Space Marine.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;917266If the crunch matched the fluff, you'd only be able to field one Space Marine scout in a 2500 point game...
(Post may contain hyperbole)

A little hyperbole.  With movie marines style rules for them. you could easily make a viable 2,000 point list with a couple of tactical squad boxes though.  That's not much revenue.

So, a bit of an update.

Chaos Space Marines are one of the most neglected armies these days.  Recently 'Traitor's Hate' was released, which featured formation and some additional updated rules.  However, there wasn't much to it otherwise.  It was kind of a disappointment.  

At this point, it would be wiser to let Forge World take over Chaos Space Marines, but there you have it.  

Don't get me wrong- I'm not a CSM player, and the only Chaos Space Marines I think are cool- the Alpha Legion.  There's nothing out there for them, so I won't bother beyond putting together a handful of models to paint.  That being said, I'll be one of the first to say that Chaos players are some of the whiniest.  But there's some truth- they deserve an update.  They deserve to have stuff that makes them a scary army- Chaos Space Marines are some of the oldest, meanest, most experienced Space Marines in the galaxy but they're kind of stuck with old, shitty equipment.  So- why don't they do it?  I'm convinced that giving CSM their proper treatment means they can't sell as many models.  

As it stands, the best place to get a Chaos fix is with Horus Heresy stuff.  Have fun with that.

Games Workshop has been making questionable decisions for decades. And are still going fairly strong. The latest threats are direct competition (price and game systems) and home 3-D printing.

It'll be interesting to see what the future holds.

Quote from: Motorskills;918815Games Workshop has been making questionable decisions for decades. And are still going fairly strong. The latest threats are direct competition (price and game systems) and home 3-D printing.

It'll be interesting to see what the future holds.

Has home 3-D printing made any impact on the mini gaming scene yet? I always hear about it, but never see anything substantial.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;918817Has home 3-D printing made any impact on the mini gaming scene yet? I always hear about it, but never see anything substantial.

Nope, but five years from now? Maybe.

Another thing to think about is infinity the game and its business model i can get all the rules free off of there web site but i need to pay for the books if i want the lore.

Quote from: David Johansen;918677Perhaps the fluff is all imperial propaganda?  That was certainly the take of the infamous "Movie Marines" article in White Dwarf.

Alternately, one marine represents one marine and one guardsman or termagant represents 100.

That reminds me of how the battletech cartoon in canon because in universe its davion propaganda for children.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;918817Has home 3-D printing made any impact on the mini gaming scene yet? I always hear about it, but never see anything substantial.

Not really.  People have made some relatively fugly knock-offs, though.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;918817Has home 3-D printing made any impact on the mini gaming scene yet? I always hear about it, but never see anything substantial.

The resolution is not yet good enough to do figures, but there are working designs out there for a lot of the vehicle kits that are ok.

Some example pics here http://makezine.com/2011/11/30/sweet-fdmfff-3d-printed-wargaming-minis/