Not mine, but it showed up on the web.

Gaming with Kids: A High School Fiasco (the Apple Valley High Session)

A few highlights:

QuoteHere’s the basic set-up of the story we cooked up using the elements:   Lily & Josh both want the AVH mascot job, which is a  highly coveted position. Matt is determined that Josh will get the job,  no matter what he has to do to help his friend. Mike torments Todd, but  also wants singing lessons from him because Mike wants to star in the  spring musical (West Side Story) after seeing that the hottest girl in  school, Rachel Simmons, is going to be the lead. Todd and  Trinity end up as best friends on the local social network, though  neither of them know the other’s real identity. Trinity and Lily are  co-chairs of the prom committee and both, through events that will occur  in play, also happen to hate Mike Tubano.

QuoteJosh is really upset about losing and Matt tries to comfort him to little effect. Josh jumps in his Mazda Miata and drives off.

QuoteMatt and Mike discuss the upcoming prom, and Mike reveals that he’s  going to ask Lily to the prom. Matt later attempts to sabotage the  prom’s set-up but fails utterly and ends up getting locked in the  janitor’s closet overnight.

QuoteTodd appears in the spring musical and is a star. Rachel, the female lead in the show, notices him and asks him to the prom.

And of course, the summary.  The synopsis is inevitable, naturally:

QuoteUltimately I find Fiasco a lot more gratifying to run, fun to play, and  pedagogically more useful than 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons – the  students are actively listening to each other, engaging in the session  from start to finish, and developing their creativity in a much more  meaningful way than what I’ve seen in most of the other games I’ve run  over the previous eight years – it seems that all of the truly rewarding  and memorable games I’ve facilitated, run, or played in with the  after-school kids all revolve around RPGs where player narration, input,  and authority is much greater than that of traditional RPGs like  D&D (irregardless of what edition you play). Part of the reason why  there’s a difference between what I got out of playing D&D growing  up and what these kids get probably has to do with the changes in  society, culture, and technology over those roughly 30 years – that’s a  topic for a future post though. Irregardless of the reasons, proactive  games like Fiasco in my experience are just plain better for inspiring  modern kids imaginations and ultimately for fostering creativity,  problem-solving, and cognitive flexibility than traditional reactive  styles of play.

(I find it hilarious that a game which alleges to foster such a fantastic learning experience has failed to instruct the author that 'irregardless' isn't a word)

So, again, why bother with 'rules'?  Set out some guidelines and just participate in a collaborative writing project.

Doesnt help matters much when over on the big purple the guy who posted a similar link got himself warned within 5 posts for telling a poster who pointed out the forge bias of the ap to go get raped by a garden gnome or something similar I like the sound of fiasco but as you say whats the point of buying it when i can freeform something similar for free?

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;420237Doesnt help matters much when over on the big purple the guy who posted a similar link got himself warned within 5 posts for telling a poster who pointed out the forge bias of the ap to go get raped by a garden gnome or something similar I like the sound of fiasco but as you say whats the point of buying it when i can freeform something similar for free?

Typical.  Indie folks are waaaaay too sensitive to take any kind of criticism.  

However, now that you mention it, these sorts of games do seem ideal as a sub-system for making up character backgrounds in traditional games.  Not quite the utterly random fiat of a Traveller (not to say that system is bad), nor the disconnected wish-fulfillment wankery of White Wolf.

Quote from: StormBringer;420234(I find it hilarious that a game which alleges to foster such a fantastic learning experience has failed to instruct the author that 'irregardless' isn't a word)

Did Fiasco actually claim to be a language tutor as well as an RPG? Impressive.

Quote from: StormBringer;420234So, again, why bother with 'rules'?  Set out some guidelines and just participate in a collaborative writing project.

Well, ultimately you could say this of a lot of games. I like Fiasco's ruleset. Not the wankery this guy is using it for, but I like the ruleset.

That last paragraph is a golden flood of bullshit, though. The second you use "pedagogically" or "cognitive flexibility" in an RPG discussion, my eyes roll too far back in my head to read anymore.

Irregardless is technically improper, but its usage is widespread enough that it is considered accepted in both written and spoken American English.

I've had several of my own high-school teachers utter it, even though it bugs the shit out of me.  Depends mostly on what area of the country you're from.

QuoteSo, again, why bother with 'rules'? Set out some guidelines and just participate in a collaborative writing project.

Structure and chance create the game.

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;420252Did Fiasco actually claim to be a language tutor as well as an RPG? Impressive.

I figured the transformative effect it had on all other areas of the players' lives would extend to linguistics as well.  

Quote from: Peregrin;420257Irregardless is technically improper, but its usage is widespread enough that it is considered accepted in both written and spoken American English.

Considered accepted by whom? I don't think you'll find a major dictionary or writing manual that would sanction its use in anything other than an imitation of uneducated dialect.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;420355Considered accepted by whom? I don't think you'll find a major dictionary or writing manual that would sanction its use in anything other than an imitation of uneducated dialect.

I could have sworn it made it into American English dictionaries as an exception because of its widespread use in some US regions, but I guess not.

I'd love to talk about Fiasco if anybody is curious about the game or has specific questions. MJ Harnish's student's example of play is wonderfully atypical - they were channeling John Hughes instead of the Coen brothers.

Although I haven't tried it, I think Fiasco would be totally killer for generating the situation to kick-start a campaign of another long-form game. Somebody just wrote a Shadowrun-inspired playset, and I could see using that to build up characters and events that would be the campaign's foundation.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;422197I'd love to talk about Fiasco if anybody is curious about the game or has specific questions. MJ Harnish's student's example of play is wonderfully atypical - they were channeling John Hughes instead of the Coen brothers.

Although I haven't tried it, I think Fiasco would be totally killer for generating the situation to kick-start a campaign of another long-form game. Somebody just wrote a Shadowrun-inspired playset, and I could see using that to build up characters and events that would be the campaign's foundation.

I have mentioned this many, many times; most of these 'games' are really better suited as mini-games within a more traditional RPG.  Part of character generation or perhaps as a replacement for die rolling skill-based social interactions.

And therein lies the market failure of these games.  Imagine taking just the to-hit and damage determination portion of combat out of AD&D, then trying to expand that into a wholly separate game.  These authors appear to think that the market isn't 'sophisticated' enough to understand these indie/story/Forge games.  The cold, stark truth is simply that the games  don't have a broad enough appeal to stand on their own.

The theme of this AP, high-school super-angsty soap opera, is a fascinating use of the rules, but how many times can that enjoyably be played out?  The game is specifically about utter failure.  Watching Bob Hope and Bing Crosby stumble their way through a Road movie is great fun and all, but not all movie plots should revolve around that.  In fact, even the Road movies themselves mixed plot elements around.

Each new example that crops up only convinces me further that these games are just not ready for prime time.  Based on the design goals and theories behind them, I am pretty sure they never will be.  Instead of trying to make them into some work of art, perhaps it would be better to first concentrate on making them games.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;422197Although I haven't tried it, I think Fiasco would be totally killer for generating the situation to kick-start a campaign of another long-form game. Somebody just wrote a Shadowrun-inspired playset, and I could see using that to build up characters and events that would be the campaign's foundation.

Or, if not the foundation of the campaign in terms of events, as a supplement to character generation, or just the "why these characters know each other," especially since for traditional games 'backstory' is not always particularly relevant. (I've heard it expressed for D&D that "Level 1-3 is your backstory.") The GM could work up a customized playset for a given town/city in his campaign - and, this may go against the spirit of Fiasco as its own game, but as an ajdunct to another game it might be interesting to have random tables for some of the places, items, etc.

Do you have a link to the Cyberpunk playset?

Cole, it is linked here, along with 38 others.

Stormbringer, Fiasco is a focused game, and it delivers a very particular kind of experience reliably. There's a ton of replay value, but like all games it is totally predicated on your enjoyment of the format.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;422364Cole, it is linked here, along with 38 others.

Stormbringer, Fiasco is a focused game, and it delivers a very particular kind of experience reliably. There's a ton of replay value, but like all games it is totally predicated on your enjoyment of the format.

It's an over-focussed game.  I think I have mentioned that.  And all games are not totally predicated on one's enjoyment of the format.  That is another false premise of which you would do well to disabuse yourself.

Wow, you sound like you came here for an argument! Maybe we're miscommunicating.

If the idea of playing a game about people with powerful ambition and poor impulse control that goes from zero to disaster in two or three hours doesn't appeal to you, you are not going to like Fiasco.

If the idea of playing daring adventurers with dreams of gold and glory across many weekly sessions and ever-greater challenges doesn't appeal to you, you are not going to like Lamentations of the Flame Princess.

Maybe you don't like either, I like both, nobody wants you to play a game you won't enjoy, the world continues spinning. But to state that Fiasco is overly-focused is just silly. It's focused just right.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;422387Maybe you don't like either, I like both, nobody wants you to play a game you won't enjoy, the world continues spinning. But to state that Fiasco is overly-focused is just silly. It's focused just right.

Another quick hint for you:  simple contradiction followed by positive statements != fact.  If you think my statement about the over-focus of this game and others like it is inaccurate, you are more than free to point out why.  But you don't get to bow out of the discussion claiming victory because you think the statement is 'silly'.  Let me give you an example:

"Poison'd leads to molesting children and ritual sacrifice of neighborhood pets.  To state otherwise is just silly."

This is why you seem to have such a hard time around here.  You are of the sort to value opinion above all else, and opinion is inviolably sacrosanct.  To question opinion is to question the very worth of a person.  Except, it isn't.  There are well formed opinions, there are poorly formed opinions, there are opinions that are flat out wrong.  Falling back on "But it's my opinion" doesn't release you from the need to defend it, nor shield you from criticisms.

Here's an idea, dig up some APs where Fiasco is used to play a bog-standard dungeon crawl, and the players make it out with the treasure and in reasonably good shape.  Or some other similar session from any genre of game.  In other words, find one where the game doesn't follow a strict railroad into misery and defeat.  Then you can claim it is not too narrowly focused.

For other folks, this just came across my radar, and may explain some of what motivates these games to restrict game-play so thoroughly:

Steve Martin Isn't Predictable Enough!: This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things