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Fiasco AP

Started by StormBringer, November 26, 2010, 01:28:51 PM

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Jason Morningstar

Quote from: Cole;423210I thought that was pretty clever too. Also, with the "Fiasco-as-prologue-to-the RPG" idea, it might be fun to let players use some of the characters from the "PC sematary." Is there a way to set Fiasco up so that a certain character is marked for death from the start?
I think the way to do that would be to say, during the setup, "one character is going to die before this is over."

Then find out in play who it is.
Check out Fiasco, "Best RPG" Origins Award nominee, Diana Jones Award and Ennie Judge\'s Spotlight Award winner. As seen on Tabletop!

"Understanding the enemy is important. And no, none of his designs are any fucking good." - Abyssal Maw

Cole

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;423226I think the way to do that would be to say, during the setup, "one character is going to die before this is over."

Then find out in play who it is.

If for whatever reason, you wanted to, Is there a feasible way to pre-set who that will be?
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Jason Morningstar

Quote from: StormBringer;423216I can't imagine there being anyway to force any dice rolls.  At the appropriate time, just declare that you failed whatever roll is necessary, like voluntarily failing a saving throw.
Yeah, no.

Unrelated: Something that I think is very effective and interesting about Fiasco is that playsets serve as a sort of shorthand to give players an instant feel for the setting. There are 144 elements, of which maybe 8-10 are going to be hard-coded into the situation, but to arrive at those all of them are going to get at least a cursory glance. So you've got local color waiting to be incorporated if you want it, and even if you don't use it Object: Valuable: John Deere Combine  tells you something about the setting.
Check out Fiasco, "Best RPG" Origins Award nominee, Diana Jones Award and Ennie Judge\'s Spotlight Award winner. As seen on Tabletop!

"Understanding the enemy is important. And no, none of his designs are any fucking good." - Abyssal Maw

Jason Morningstar

Quote from: Cole;423227If for whatever reason, you wanted to, Is there a feasible way to pre-set who that will be?

Sure, by consensus or randomly or whatever works for your group. I think leaving it to be discovered in play would be more fun, but if you had a specific reason to single one guy out, I don't think it would cause a problem.

Just like the excellent roleplaying game Montsegur 1244 invariably ends with the death or conversion of all the Cathar PCs at the hands of the Inquisition, your Fiasco game would end with that particular dude dead.

By the way Cole, that Lon Chaney quote is chilling and priceless.
Check out Fiasco, "Best RPG" Origins Award nominee, Diana Jones Award and Ennie Judge\'s Spotlight Award winner. As seen on Tabletop!

"Understanding the enemy is important. And no, none of his designs are any fucking good." - Abyssal Maw

StormBringer

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;423228Yeah, no.

Ah, simple contradiction unsupported by explanation.  Somehow, this isn't surprising.

It's really weird how it almost looks like the utterly non-arcane lists of six-item tables don't actually require rolls of any kind to begin with.  

Kind of like:
QuoteUse the results of the roll to pick elements from the Tilt list, as during the Setup, with each high-scoring player choosing a general and a specific element. This is a good time to ask for input from the other players, who may have really good ideas. It's also a good time to privilege your own character's big finish!

So, dice rolls are largely a formality anyway, where is the big problem in ditching the rolls and just deciding the outcome?
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

BWA

Quote from: StormBringer;423215That is the dumbest fucking thing I have read in a long while.  There aren't any counterpoints, just whiny fucks with sand in their vagina because their shitty opinions aren't being treated like the Holy Grail.  Responding with "nuh uh" isn't a counterpoint, fuckstain, it's just being contradictory.  Which is the exact same tired bullshit you employ everytime your hands are on the keyboard around here, so shut the fuck up.

StormBringer, what is this thread about? Why did you start it, really? What are you trying to say?

I am sincerely interested in the answer to these questions.
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Jason Morningstar

Stormbringer, are you actually reading the preview now? That's fantastic. I hope you like what you see and learn a little about how Fiasco works.
Check out Fiasco, "Best RPG" Origins Award nominee, Diana Jones Award and Ennie Judge\'s Spotlight Award winner. As seen on Tabletop!

"Understanding the enemy is important. And no, none of his designs are any fucking good." - Abyssal Maw

Insufficient Metal

Quote from: StormBringer;423222Does someone have their feel-bads hurt?  I understand that because it is a game you wrote...  oh, wait, you didn't write this game.  Ok, your company produces and markets this game...  hold on, I don't think you have a hand in that either.

So, you simply play the game, but refuse to brook any critiques about it?  Are you sure the right person is being accused of zealotry here?

Well, saying I think your criticisms are incorrect hardly equates being unable to emotionally withstand their very mention.

But no, I don't imagine what either of us thinks about Fiasco will ultimately trouble the other very much. And ultimately it's not worth getting personal about it. It's just a game. Or, you know, not.

StormBringer

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;423264Stormbringer, are you actually reading the preview now? That's fantastic. I hope you like what you see and learn a little about how Fiasco works.

Nice dodge.  I read the preview before and knew how it worked.  In your fumbling rush to silence criticism, you assumed I hadn't done my homework.  More likely, you didn't care whether or not I had, and just fell back on a familiar tactic.  According to Sun Tzu, a better tactic is to lure your opponent into an ambush by feigning weakness.

I suggested to ditch the die roll and just pick an outcome, which you contradicted and went on to suggest ditching the die roll and just picking an outcome.  

Why is that?  

If you want to demonstrate how I didn't know what I was talking about, it would probably be a good idea to not suggest the exact same strategy right after I had already suggested it.  In other words, I was somehow able to provide the very course of action endorsed by the designer of the game, despite your tireless efforts to show I was ignorant of such.  

Sadly, this is the failing of your reliance on the a posteriori arguments I pointed to earlier.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

StormBringer

Quote from: BWA;423250StormBringer, what is this thread about? Why did you start it, really? What are you trying to say?

I am sincerely interested in the answer to these questions.

I think that was pretty obvious with my summary:
QuoteSo, again, why bother with 'rules'? Set out some guidelines and just participate in a collaborative writing project.

As mentioned elsewhere, in this case the Fiasco process likely hinders the collaborative writing part.  Mostly due to the inflexibility I have mentioned elsewhere, especially in regards to the range of characters.

And that lack of range will also limit the diversity of stories that can be told.  So, more like a boardgame than anything else, really.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Peregrin

Putting limitations on things spurs creativity, especially in improv.  Just 'cause the guys on Whose Line are given very specific "jumping off" points doesn't make them any less creative, in fact it helps them when coming up with cool stuff.

If I give someone a very specific premise, some details about possible characters, equipment, etc., they're going to give me something much better than if I just told someone "You can do whatever you want, come up with something funny/entertaining."
"In a way, the Lands of Dream are far more brutal than the worlds of most mainstream games. All of the games set there have a bittersweetness that I find much harder to take than the ridiculous adolescent posturing of so-called \'grittily realistic\' games. So maybe one reason I like them as a setting is because they are far more like the real world: colourful, crazy, full of strange creatures and people, eternal and yet changing, deeply beautiful and sometimes profoundly bitter."

Jason Morningstar

Stormbringer, you are clearly playing a much deeper game than I am, but you're sort of playing it with yourself. That you view me as an opponent, and this thread as a war to be won, creeps me out.
Check out Fiasco, "Best RPG" Origins Award nominee, Diana Jones Award and Ennie Judge\'s Spotlight Award winner. As seen on Tabletop!

"Understanding the enemy is important. And no, none of his designs are any fucking good." - Abyssal Maw

Shazbot79

Quote from: StormBringer;423215That is the dumbest fucking thing I have read in a long while.  There aren't any counterpoints, just whiny fucks with sand in their vagina because their shitty opinions aren't being treated like the Holy Grail.  Responding with "nuh uh" isn't a counterpoint, fuckstain, it's just being contradictory.  Which is the exact same tired bullshit you employ everytime your hands are on the keyboard around here, so shut the fuck up.

If getting me to admit I'm wrong is so overwhelmingly important to folks, there are two things to consider:
a)  You need to get a fucking life or something, because that is about the most disturbingly pitiable reason to be on the internet.
b)  I dunno, maybe engage in some actual discussion to show where I am wrong, instead of bitching about it like Darren will be along shortly to ban me from the board.

I really don't have to wait for someone to 'get my back', the ridiculously weak arguments shown so far are so easily handled, I could get a helmet-tested chimp to randomly slam its ass on the keyboard have more consistent and coherent points than what has been presented to me so far.  Instead of breaking down in tears about how incapable people are of presenting a cogent argument, perhaps they could spend that time developing a cogent argument.  While everyone waits for that to happen, you can shut your fucking cryhole about it.


And yet, they all stop short of saying "Yes, you can play Fiasco and have everyone succeed at their plans".  It's all mealy-mouthed "Why would you play Fiasco any other way" and "I had this character this one time that came out ahead".  Surprise, dipshit, that isn't 'demonstrating' anything except that the people saying it are struggling to come up with even one contradictory example, and are only doing so to be contradictory.


Except that it isn't fallacious in any way.  It's the difference between a priori and a posteriori.  I don't expect to solve that age-old dispute in this thread, but the distinction is important.  If the argument is that the only possible knowledge is a posteriori, then there can be no speculation, no inference, and no possible advancement of knowledge.  That's the fucking fallacy.  There are certainly appropriate uses of an a posteriori argument, but to state that any knowledge whatsoever can only be had through direct experience is pure bullshit that is most often used as a defence from a pathetically weak premise, like the ones that have been presented here.

And you goddamn well know that; you and I have both been in discussions where past experience is at least as supported as direct play experience.  If I told you I wrote a game where you had to roll 75 different dice, pick out the prime numbers and count those as successes, then add up the rest of them (except multiples of 7) as a modifier to a three page table result determined by adding up all the multiples of 7 dice, it absolutely does not require you or anyone to sit through a five hour session to determine that is the worst dice mechanic of all time.

Jam the a posteriori snobbery up your ass sideways.


That is a direct contradiction of both the marketing material and what everyone here has so far said about it.  Are they mistaken, or are you?  You seem to think their play experience trumps all, so clearly, you don't understand what the game is about.


Sci-fi is a genre.  Fantasy is a genre.  Steampunk is a genre.  Fargo is not a genre.  The Coen brothers are not a genre.

And the players don't interact with a game world at all, they interact with each other.  Even beyond that, the interaction is strictly railroaded as 'big ambition and poor impulse control'.  So, you don't even get to play your own character!  


So does a collaborative story writing exercise, as well as a Pokemon or Harry Potter RP channel in IRC.  Removing all traces of mechanics does not increase immersion by default.


They would, if any of those factors existed in Fiasco.  So far, all we have is another one-way ticket on the misery tourism bus.  And you have done absolutely nothing to show otherwise.


So, having the stronger argument makes me the bully here?  Fuck you, dipshit.  It's really not my fault that taking the losing side of a shitty and pathetic argument means you lose.

Don't like being 'bullied'?  Then stay the fuck out of the conversation.  Barring that, offer something useful instead of more bitching.

This is exactly the kind of shit that I mean. Exactly.
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StormBringer

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;423323Stormbringer, you are clearly playing a much deeper game than I am, but you're sort of playing it with yourself. That you view me as an opponent, and this thread as a war to be won, creeps me out.

No it doesn't, or you would have left without comment.  You are still avoiding anything like a response to anything I have said.  You relish opportunities like this to talk about your game, and especially the chance to convert one of the 'brain damaged' traditional gamers to your way of thinking.  If not, at least to show everyone just how this 'brain damage' is detrimental to gamers.

All you wanted to do was have a thread where everyone sings the praises of Fiasco, and I am sure you find it irritating to no end when there are criticisms.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

StormBringer

Quote from: Shazbot79;423395This is exactly the kind of shit that I mean. Exactly.

You mean, 'response in kind'?  You wandered in here to shit all over the thread and now you are upset because you didn't shut down big, bad StormBringer?

You really need to come down out of your own head once in a while.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need