Anyone played this? How similar is it to Blades in the Dark?

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/207823/Dusk-City-Outlaws-Core-Game

Dunno anything about Blades in the Dark, but I did get a chance to play Dusk City Outlaws at a game store a couple of weeks back. A guy had a PDF copy from the kickstart and ran it for a couple of us. It was an interesting game but I'm not sure we understood how to use the dice correctly. It was very story-telling in design, so if you don't like story games you wouldn't probably like this one.

The basic concept as it was explained to me was that you get a "job" to do (ours was to steal a necklace from the body of a dead woman who was going to be buried soon) and you had so many time-units (turns) to make a plan, gather intel, and then do the job. Most of our group was pretty clueless about exactly what intel we were supposed to be gathering as the game seemed to be almost a sandbox of opportunities, but the GM offered enough hints that we managed to put together some sort of plan. A play which went FUBAR almost instantly and we started to "wing it" in order to somehow salvage what we could of the job. Fun and frustrating at the same time, but I would consider giving it a go again sometime because I'm pretty sure I would do better the second time.

Where we had dice issues came toward the end. We had split the party with each of us trying to escape on our own, and each followed by a number of guards. Then things broke down something like this: I'm followed by 4 guards so I try to "stealth" and roll a success, so now it's 3 guards. Then I try again and fail, so the GM can throw an obstacle at me and he chooses that 3 more guards join the hunt so now it's 6 guards. I try to convince them to let me go since I don't have the necklace and roll a success, so now it's 5 guards. We had three characters doing this sort of thing at the end and this exciting chase scene morphed into a tedious dice-rolling contest. I would need to read the rules to see what went wrong, but the concept seemed solid even if the execution fell flat. My guess is that guards are mooks in groups of 3, so the total number of dice rolls would be significantly less. Something like that.

Also, the final version is supposed to have city maps and such, but the one we played was all B&W papers off of a printer and we didn't get to see any maps. Maps would have made planning a lot easier, I think, as they would have made the thing more visual.

Quote from: finarvyn;994536The basic concept as it was explained to me was that you get a "job" to do (ours was to steal a necklace from the body of a dead woman who was going to be buried soon) and you had so many time-units (turns) to make a plan, gather intel, and then do the job. Most of our group was pretty clueless about exactly what intel we were supposed to be gathering as the game seemed to be almost a sandbox of opportunities, but the GM offered enough hints that we managed to put together some sort of plan. A play which went FUBAR almost instantly and we started to "wing it" in order to somehow salvage what we could of the job. Fun and frustrating at the same time, but I would consider giving it a go again sometime because I'm pretty sure I would do better the second time.

So far, so Blades-y.

Quote from: finarvyn;994536Where we had dice issues came toward the end. We had split the party with each of us trying to escape on our own, and each followed by a number of guards. Then things broke down something like this: I'm followed by 4 guards so I try to "stealth" and roll a success, so now it's 3 guards. Then I try again and fail, so the GM can throw an obstacle at me and he chooses that 3 more guards join the hunt so now it's 6 guards. I try to convince them to let me go since I don't have the necklace and roll a success, so now it's 5 guards. We had three characters doing this sort of thing at the end and this exciting chase scene morphed into a tedious dice-rolling contest. I would need to read the rules to see what went wrong, but the concept seemed solid even if the execution fell flat. My guess is that guards are mooks in groups of 3, so the total number of dice rolls would be significantly less. Something like that.

This sounds awful.  It sounds like the GM was treating the individual guards as a kind of hit points.  How do you successfully lose one pursuer through stealth but not the others?  Were the pursuers mute?  And how do you go from running to persuading to (presumably) running again?  It sounds more like a board game than an RPG.

I'm still not sure how I feel about BitD, but its mechanics are a lot better for situations like these.  Of course, maybe you had a GM issue and not a rules issue.

It has a cool name if nothing else. Sounds like an old sexy noir B-movie title, which is always a good thing. Makes me think of this:
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I have both, have run a ton of BitD and am reading DCO. Even without having played DCO I can tell you that a major difference is one of tone. If Blades is Taboo (dark as fuck and really violent and gritty) DCO would be Leverage (lighter, more episodic and "caper-y"). Both have a distinct charm, IMO. I too initially felt they occupied the same gaming space, but now I don't feel they do.

Another difference is gameplay. In Blades you're building a crew which is (hopefully) becoming an institution. In DCO you're already part of an institution. It may seem as if the latter wouldn't be as cool due to lack of factional ownership, but there's something fun and almost freeing about being an operative as opposed to control. You can "climb the ladder" in DCO, it's simply less a "being da boss" thing (there are some pretty neat "retirement plans" for PCs).

The second part of the gameplay difference is that in Blades you don't plan. You cut to the action and the blow of unexpected obstacles is handled through flashbacks. In DCO planning is key and, from everything I've read and watched, the fun part. It sucks that finarvyn's experience was one of frustration. After the rotating guard stuff they dealt with, I'll be re-reading those rules*!

One bit I really like..no, love...about DCO is the presentation. Don't get me wrong, Blades has a fantastic layout and the art has that Hellboy look to it, which is awesome (the character sheets are pure brilliance, too), but the Disney-esque art of DCO, the stunning set pieces and the layout all meld into visuals that I can see bursting into motion.

It sounds to me like this is a Storygame, not an RPG.  The discussion talks about "shared storytelling duties". That's not an RPG.

Quote from: RPGPundit;995371It sounds to me like this is a Storygame, not an RPG.  The discussion talks about "shared storytelling duties". That's not an RPG.

Fuck off, the only time that has been mentioned in the discussion is by you, here.

You can watch people play this game on youtube. There is a GM, and there are players. THere are no 'shared storytelling duties', wahtever that means, so cool your jets you daft fascist

Quote from: RPGPundit;995371It sounds to me like this is a Storygame, not an RPG.  The discussion talks about "shared storytelling duties". That's not an RPG.

You take on a Role and Play a Game. Yep. It's an RPG.

Quote from: Biscuitician;995400Fuck off, the only time that has been mentioned in the discussion is by you, here.

You can watch people play this game on youtube. There is a GM, and there are players. THere are 'shared storytelling duties', wahtever that means, so cool your jets you daft fascist

It's really neat how each player gets to take the lead in their own scene. A framed chunk of time that you can be as creative as you like is such a cool concept. It's like having a super-detailed combat turn without excluding other players.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;995412It's really neat how each player gets to take the lead in their own scene. A framed chunk of time that you can be as creative as you like is such a cool concept. It's like having a super-detailed combat turn without excluding other players.

Yeah, that part was fun. Each person got a turn in the spotlight with the others filling supplementary roles.

The comment about DCO being like the TV show LEVERAGE is spot on, or at least that's the mental image I had while playing.

As to the "is it an RPG" question, I'd say that it is. Certainly there is a lot of choice, very "sandbox" like in places, but there is a clear dice mechanic designed to resolve things and not just GM fiat. Whether or not we played it right is another question, but there was a mechanic in place.

Which part exactly was hanging you up so much? I'd like to look into it and hopefully help, as well as possibly head any problems off.

There's an interview...

Quote from: InterviewWould you describe DCO as more storytelling driven or mechanically driven?
I would say it's more narratively driven, but more than that I'd say it's more player-driven. The players are responsible for setting the scene a lot of the time, and take on some of the responsibility of worldbuilding when the Judge calls for it. They might name or describe places and NPCs, letting them share in the creation of the ongoing story in a more active way. Additionally, all characters have access to some game mechanics that let them directly impact the narrative. For example, there's one specialty, the Mole, that is sort of the "master of disguise" infiltrator and spy. If the Mole isn't taking part in a scene, at any time that player can pick a background character, someone inconsequential, and say, "That guy? That guy is actually me in disguise," and then jump into the scene. There are a fair number of mechanics like that, which let the players bend the rules of traditional, chronological narratives to make something cool happen. They can't do it all the time, though, so when it pops up, it's impactful.

Sounds like players are taking direct control of the storytelling if not the setting itself in specific situations.  Might not be lot's of narrative control, but what there is, is major.  Like the author said above: "They can't do it all the time, though, so when it pops up, it's impactful."

Quote from: CRKrueger;995597There's an interview...



Sounds like players are taking direct control of the storytelling if not the setting itself in specific situations.  Might not be lot's of narrative control, but what there is, is major.  Like the author said above: "They can't do it all the time, though, so when it pops up, it's impactful."

A lot of the world-building is in the form of something like this:

GM: You're the lead on this legwork scene. Tell me about it.
Player: Locke's going to the docks to visit his contact and find out what the Blooded are up to.
GM: Sounds great. Who's your contact? How do you know them? Where are they?
Player: Her name's Slick Sally and she's a whore at the Silver Sails brothel at the docks. I know her because, um, I..."hired" her a few times and eventually, a solid "business friendship" sprang up.
GM: Ha! "Hired", eh? Hmmm...anyway, what's the Silver Sails like? Anything of note in or around it?
Player: Actually, yes...

And so forth. One thing to keep in mind is that while the players can get creative, the GM can veto outlandish or inappropriate ideas ("Your father's the Watch Commander? I don't think that's true..."). I've found such player-driven stuff to be valued greatly by players and they become more invested in the setting because they have a little pride in ownership. They helped make a piece of the world and that's special. One thing players need to respect is the setting and fiction, such as not pushing to have your father be the Commander of the Watch or something that could negatively impact everyone's enjoyment of the game.

Yeah, it's a storytelling game. Moved.

Quote from: RPGPundit;996168Yeah, it's a storytelling game. Moved.

And still no explanation is given. Just random paranoia because...reasons

I guess the correct way to design a game like this, so as to be a 'proper' rpg, would be for the GM (and he alone) to create and write up the ENTIRE city, it's population, establishments, institutions and history, all before hand. Then hand all that over to every player and have them learn it all so as to ensure that ONLY the gm creates this information and not, you know, the PC to whom it's pertinent.