Quote from: mllaneza;675226I'm not sure what that means. Does it sound like I'm insisting that there be one term for setting+player actions ? I am assuming that there should be one in terms of DW, but should is a funny word. Are you saying that we'd be better off without the concept of "the fiction" under any name ?

You're pretending as though it was absolutely vital to invent a term like "the fiction" when in fact no RPG prior to DW has needed to use that term in order to make itself understood.

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Quote from: RPGPundit;675230You're pretending as though it was absolutely vital to invent a term like "the fiction" when in fact no RPG prior to DW has needed to use that term in order to make itself understood.

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Ah ! True, no RPG before DW though to lump the character's realm of what they do, in with the GM's realm of "the rest of the world". Fiction is awfully closely related to story, so I understand that it stands out as a bad thing.

I'm sincerely looking for a inoffensive term for "everything that's been established in the game, from the setting details to what the characters have done." If there's a problem with lumping the two together, I'd like to hear more about what that is. I'm honestly interested, both as a gamer with an interest in theory as well as a prospective RPG publisher.

edit: addendum. Here's this sentence from the Moves chapter (pp 16 in the PDF), "“Fictional” means that the action and effect come from the world of the characters we’re describing." and this, "We talk about the fiction—the world of the characters and the things that happen around them." from pp 15. I suppose this edit is me wondering about what's so bad about the phrase "fiction" when it's defined like this. It's just the setting and what's already happened.

Quote from: mllaneza;675233Ah ! True, no RPG before DW though to lump the character's realm of what they do, in with the GM's realm of "the rest of the world". Fiction is awfully closely related to story, so I understand that it stands out as a bad thing.

I'm sincerely looking for a inoffensive term for "everything that's been established in the game, from the setting details to what the characters have done."

Campaign
Setting
World

Any one of those could have been substituted directly for "the fiction" without the slightest problem.

Quote from: RPGPundit;675235Campaign
Setting
World

Any one of those could have been substituted directly for "the fiction" without the slightest problem.

Tell you what, I'll look very, very closely at using "world" instead of fiction in my hopefully-to-be-published rules if you'll read "world" for "fiction" in existing games.

What I'm aiming for is a game where the player characters are the protagonists and have that level of agency, but nobody is immune to sudden death if that's what the world demands. How's that in a game that's trying to be Indiana Jones crossed with the A Team, in space ?

Quote from: RPGPundit;675235Campaign
Setting
World
.

There is also milieu. But i haven't seen anyone except Gygax use it.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;675240There is also milieu. But i haven't seen anyone except Gygax use it.

Hah! Yes, that occurred to me as well. But, frankly, "the fiction" is only controversial if you are reluctant to admit that in-game details are make-believe, for some reason. Which is crazy.

Or a category error.

Quote from: Bill White;675242Hah! Yes, that occurred to me as well. But, frankly, "the fiction" is only controversial if you are reluctant to admit that in-game details are make-believe, for some reason. Which is crazy.

It's also a problem if you do not want "in-game details"confused with "a story".

Quote from: Bill White;675242Hah! Yes, that occurred to me as well. But, frankly, "the fiction" is only controversial if you are reluctant to admit that in-game details are make-believe, for some reason. Which is crazy.

Or a category error.

I think the issue with the fiction, particularly now, is it is a term specifically associated with storygames. I honestly do not care at all about whether they are labelled rpgs or not (and I hold no hostility toward that side of the community), but nine ties out of ten, when i see posters talking about "the fiction" in an rpg, they are speaking from a viewpoint that includes stuff like sceneframing and narrative mechanics. There is nothing wrong with that style of play, but if it isn't your cup of tea, you will likely avoid the term becuse its associated with it. Even though some folks object to using words like "story" or "plot" to describe ingame events, those ones strike me as less specific to the storygame scene and seem more widely use. If someone talks about the plot or story in their most recent game, I won't necessarily assume anything about their style of play because those terms are used by a lot of different people and have been around in the hobby for a long time. But when if someone talks about "the fiction" I do tend to assume they are coming from a particular playstyle. Just like when someone uses the word "narrative".

I see the benefit of the term. It may not be essential, but it is a useful thing to have a label for. Words like campaign, setting, world, and millieu all imply something static and pre-planned rather than what just happened two minutes ago or what is happening right now. I'm surprised that people think of fiction as a storygame term though. Story, plot, or narrative I could understand carries this kind of baggage, but fiction? Surely no-one thinks that the events of their play are not fictional? Still, it's probably not a good idea to get into another long tangent about dictionary definitions etc.

Me and friends never had a problem with Fiction. Even before hearing about storygames or forge or whatever.

Ive heard somewhere the term "shared imagined space" but despite agreeing its more accurate, its too technical (and pretentious) for my tastes

Quote from: soviet;675269I see the benefit of the term. It may not be essential, but it is a useful thing to have a label for. Words like campaign, setting, world, and millieu all imply something static and pre-planned rather than what just happened two minutes ago or what is happening right now. I'm surprised that people think of fiction as a storygame term though. Story, plot, or narrative I could understand carries this kind of baggage, but fiction? Surely no-one thinks that the events of their play are not fictional? Still, it's probably not a good idea to get into another long tangent about dictionary definitions etc.

I do not have a problem with people using 'fiction' if they find it helpful. My point is because every time I encounter it in an online discussion, it is coming from people who are into narrative mechanics. When people use the word I usually assume that is probably their play style. Same with narrative. If someone says story or plot, those are used by lots of different people so I do not assume a link to storygames. So if you do talk about 'the fiction' in an rpg I think it is likely folks are more likely to assume you have things like scene framing and creating a story as the goal of play. It is entirely possible I am wrong but I strongly associàte 'the fiction' and 'narrative' with storygames.

Quote from: soviet;675269Words like campaign, setting, world, and millieu all imply something static and pre-planned rather than what just happened two minutes ago or what is happening right now.

Yeah, that's the issue I see for those terms too. Fiction has its own baggage, though, that doesn't trouble me but it's there. I've been mulling it, trying to imagine a word that covers both "the rules & details of our world" and "what we've been doing so far/just now". Something like "precedent first"? Could cover the established world details part, and the recent history part... "Agreements first"? To be encompassing of all the things the players/GM agree on: the world, events, & "fictional positioning", etc. It's a tricky one.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;675240There is also milieu. But i haven't seen anyone except Gygax use it.

The D&D Rules Cyclopedia uses the word Story. As in "the DM is the main narrator of the story in which the other players' characters will participate.

Quote from: Noclue;675308The D&D Rules Cyclopedia uses the word Story. As in "the DM is the main narrator of the story in which the other players' characters will participate.

The Rules Cyclopedia is based on Mentzer's D&D, not Gygax's.

In this particular instance, the distinction does matter.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;675279I do not have a problem with people using 'fiction' if they find it helpful. My point is because every time I encounter it in an online discussion, it is coming from people who are into narrative mechanics.

Exactly. And ironic, because DW doesn't actually have narrative mechanics.  Seriously, its an RPG in storygame-drag; and while I'm sure the point was to try to bring the RPG gamers into storygames, it seems like what its more likely to accomplish is to fool storygamers into thinking that they're playing a storygame when they play DW, and that DW is a really successful "storygame" (and thus proof they're winning) when actually its a mildly-successful RPG (and thus proof they're done).

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