Quote from: RPGPundit;668668Nope; its about whether one of the two is chocolate.

Its like a carob-obsessed vegan going to a chocolate-lovers forum and demanding that carob be given equal tie on the main discussion page, claiming that such and such carob cookie should be considered chocolate because its disguised as a chip, or stating that chocolate-icing carrot cake should not be considered chocolate because "carrot" sounds like "carob".

That's what's ludicrous.

RPGPundit

No, it's like one chocolate-lovers forum insisting that dark chocolate is the only legitimate kind of chocolate and anything made out of milk chocolate is some bullshit story food that can fuck off back to the carrots forum.

Anyway this analogy is getting pretty strange

Quote from: RPGPundit;668674So you're trying to pretend that when player B who shouts out "I want to stop player A from doing x", the GM can just say "NO, you can't do that its not your turn"?

Not pretending. The GM can do just that.

Quote from: daniel_ream;668680So now neither FATE nor James Bond 007 are RPGs, now?  Bollocks, I can't keep up.

Again, more nonsense and nitpicking, in the former case by making shit up, in the latter by choosing some of the most obscure peripheral cases, that again are notable for their marginality and oddness, and then trying to present these as central cases.

Did you know that Mormons launch "archeological" expeditions to central america, trying to find "proof" of ancient israelite civilizations among the native americans. The "proofs" they find look about as convincing as your current attempts of evidence.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;668676And unlike most RPGS, the GM has no power whatsoever to interpret these successes or failures or consequences.  

Nonsense. The dice results are determined by the rules like in an RPG. Unless you are advocating that a GM in an RPG should ignore dice results?

Quote from: RPGPundit;668676So much so, to the point that the GM in DW isn't allowed to roll dice, lest he end up "cheating" by imagining that the guy who was once the designer of worlds is now more than a mere monopoly-banker, and try to fudge a roll behind a screen like they did in the dark days before the Peoples' Revolution.

So, the GM not being called to roll dice by the rules is story-gaming now?

Quote from: RPGPundit;668676No. In an RPG, its the GAME MASTER who describes what happens, not the player. The player says what he would like to do.

In this case, the players said what he would like to do, rolled the dice and got a success. The result was a foregone conclusion and it would not be remarkable in any RPG I know of for the player to describe their next action in this manner.

FWIW players doesn't have the authority to describe success in DW. The rules determine what happens, just like in an RPG, and then play continues. DW is actually silent on how it continues specifically, assuming the group doesn't need guidance at that point (which is also like most RPGs as written IME).

Quote from: Skywalker;668691Nonsense. The dice results are determined by the rules like in an RPG. Unless you are advocating that a GM in an RPG should ignore dice results?

The GM has authority over and above any specific rule or result, yes.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;668692The GM has authority over and above any specific rule or result, yes.

But it is a widely agreed principle of RPGing that a GM shouldn't generally ignore dice results or the rules, right? I even have RPGs that say that in the GM section.

Are you guys seriously discussing with Pundti ?

The guy has never actually read nor played the thing and is just talking out of his ass.

Quote from: silva;668699Are you guys seriously discussing with Pundti ?

Well, despite saying that he doesn't visit this forum, he changed his mind and posted numerous posts in multiple threads here, making it hard to continue the original discussions.

Quote from: RPGPundit;668674So you're trying to pretend that when player B who shouts out "I want to stop player A from doing x", the GM can just say "NO, you can't do that its not your turn"?
He's not required to allow player B his story-proganism and "Say yes or roll the dice" to borrow another Swine phrase? Or what are the DW Swine calling it? "To do it, do it"?

Or that when Player C says "I fire at the ork" and then player D says "No, I fire at the orc first" the GM can just unilaterally decide that player D gets to go first even though player C called it first?

RPGPundit

Yes, the GM can do exactly that.
Morever, "say yes or roll" is a role playing concept that originated over a decade before the term ' storygame' came into existence and as an innocuous bit of gaming advice it has zero to do with story gaming.

Quote from: Skywalker;668698But it is a widely agreed principle of RPGing that a GM shouldn't generally ignore dice results or the rules, right? I even have RPGs that say that in the GM section.

As a general custom? Sure. But its understood that the GM has the authority to do so.

In roleplaying games, that is. One of the big differences in storygames is that the latter seek to completely control the GM, limiting his activity as much as possible and making him beholden to both rules and players; with people like Luke Crane and Vince Baker having gone on record as to how they feel that GMs are dangerous, and likewise that they peskily ruin the "vision" of the sage "intellectual" game designer, and therefore cannot be trusted.

So in Storygames, like Dungeon World, both the rule and the custom is that the GM is NOT permitted to ignore dice results or the rules.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;668703As a general custom? Sure. But its understood that the GM has the authority to do so.

In roleplaying games, that is. One of the big differences in storygames is that the latter seek to completely control the GM, limiting his activity as much as possible and making him beholden to both rules and players; with people like Luke Crane and Vince Baker having gone on record as to how they feel that GMs are dangerous, and likewise that they peskily ruin the "vision" of the sage "intellectual" game designer, and therefore cannot be trusted.

So in Storygames, like Dungeon World, both the rule and the custom is that the GM is NOT permitted to ignore dice results or the rules.

RPGPundit

Why then do these GMs decide to run these games? Are they held prisoner by their groups or forced into it by peer pressure? Do they desperately want to fudge dice results if only their players/captors/designer-tyrants would let them?

Quote from: soviet;668704Why then do these GMs decide to run these games? Are they held prisoner by their groups or forced into it by peer pressure? Do they desperately want to fudge dice results if only their players/captors/designer-tyrants would let them?

I honestly don't know. I'd certainly never run a game like that.
If I had to guess, its because they drank the kool-aid and think they're participating in some great (pseudo-)intellectual exercise; in other words, their reward is that they get to feel hip and pretentious.

Its probably one of the reasons why storygames are (in)famous for not being playable or used for long campaigns.  That, and that the games are really being played to mark how trendsetting one is. And of course, that they're not that fun.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Skywalker;668700Well, despite saying that he doesn't visit this forum, he changed his mind and posted numerous posts in multiple threads here, making it hard to continue the original discussions.

You can thank Rum Cove for that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;668703As a general custom? Sure. But its understood that the GM has the authority to do so.

In roleplaying games, that is. One of the big differences in storygames is that the latter seek to completely control the GM, limiting his activity as much as possible and making him beholden to both rules and players; with people like Luke Crane and Vince Baker having gone on record as to how they feel that GMs are dangerous, and likewise that they peskily ruin the "vision" of the sage "intellectual" game designer, and therefore cannot be trusted.

So who or what was Gygax yelling at in those early days when he said critical hits where offensive or that DMs who did such things were unethical and should be held in contempt?

This is not a "storygamer" thing.

Quote from: Kanye Westeros;668710So who or what was Gygax yelling at in those early days when he said critical hits where offensive or that DMs who did such things were unethical and should be held in contempt?

This is not a "storygamer" thing.

Even the devil can quote Gygax. He said a lot of things, and none of the because he thought Storygaming was the model to follow.