Quote from: soviet;668585Rules in a book can't force anyone to do anything. What force exactly would physically prevent a GM or group unhappy with that outcome from changing it?

By that logic you  could say that Hungry Hungry Hippos is also an RPG.

The point is, AS WRITTEN, it was claimed that DW's initiative rules gave the DM agency. When in fact, AS WRITTEN, it very much does NOT.

RPGPundit

Quote from: soviet;668591If you want to say that the hardcore storygames.com people are out of touch with what traditional D&D style roleplaying is all about, I'd probably agree with you.

But I think that most of the people who actually play games like DW also play games like D&D on other nights and know perfectly well what chocolate cake tastes like. They just happen to enjoy different recipes is all.

Then why do they keep trying to pretend its the same recipe?

Its like the vegans who keep insisting, to everyone, that carob tastes exactly like chocolate; their whole goal being to get you to try a taste because they think carob is somehow "morally superior" food to chocolate; they know they're lying to get you to try it, either about it being just like chocolate (if they've ever eaten chocolate in their fucking lives) or about knowing what chocolate tastes like in the first place.  Sometimes they're lying to themselves, granted, but the point is they're engaging in a deception, with the intention of fooling people for the sake of their own twisted ideology, and pretending that something is not what it is.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;668599Then why do they keep trying to pretend its the same recipe?

Look I haven't read DW but it is still very clear to me that those people who have claimed that DW is a traditional/old school RPG are fucking wrong.

I agree these things are different recipes. But the argument on this site appears to be whether one of the two cakes is even food, which is ludicrous.

Quote from: RPGPundit;668568There is no "fiat" involved if a GM is FORCED by the rules to give initiative to the person who says something first.

RPGPundit

That's not an accurate representation of DW

Look, I'm not making claims that DW is the same as anything. But, the fact that one poster provided an example where a GM permitted the player to add some narrative color to his move, does not mean that there's a rule that says players have an ability to do that. Similarly, because one poster had an experience where the GM failed to control the flow of the game, does not mean that the game forces the GM to give initiative to the person who speaks first.

If you have limited experience with the game, why not just ask "hey, how does the GM control initiative in DW? I've heard some bad things..."

Quote from: RPGPundit;668568There is no "fiat" involved if a GM is FORCED by the rules to give initiative to the person who says something first.

That's untrue. In DW, the GM chooses who to give initiative to by addressing them with the question: "What do you do?" In practice, DW has greater flexibility than usual as they are forced by the rules to call for initiative and then forced to follow the order determined by the dice.

Quote from: RPGPundit;668565Except that's not what a Dungeon World dialogue would look like.  You missed the part where the GM has no choice but to offer the Player the options of what might happen based on his in-between dodge roll.

Also, the part I highlighted, where suddenly the Player, and not the GM, is describing what has happened to the goblin.

The GM has no choice but to grant success on a successful roll, a failure on a failed roll, and a success with consequences on a partial success. The system, like most RPGs, quantifies what these means in terms of the mechanics.

The player description of pushing the goblin is the result of the successful action the player initiated, and is just like any RPG. FWIW by the rules a player doesn't narrate the results of a successful dice roll anyway, and in effect the GM tends to provide the follow up narration following the operation of the mechanics, again just like any other RPG.

Quote from: RPGPundit;668580All of those are games where the risk of death doesn't actually exist in the "physics" of the world being emulated.  They're also all comedy games.

So Fate points are a part of the "physics" of the Warhammer world?

Quote from: Skywalker;668655So Fate points are a part of the "physics" of the Warhammer world?

Actually funny you mention it because yes, yes they are. They are explicitly given by gods to people gods consider special to their plans. That's why Chaos champions (or "bad guys" in general) also may have Fate Points.

They are an abstraction of favour of the gods, in short.

Quote from: Rincewind1;668658Actually funny you mention it because yes, yes they are. They are explicitly given by gods to people gods consider special to their plans. That's why Chaos champions (or "bad guys" in general) also may have Fate Points.

Cool. Sounds like the criteria above needs to be qualified to include this "physics of the world" exception.

Quote from: soviet;668603Look I haven't read DW but it is still very clear to me that those people who have claimed that DW is a traditional/old school RPG are fucking wrong.

I agree these things are different recipes. But the argument on this site appears to be whether one of the two cakes is even food, which is ludicrous.

Nope; its about whether one of the two is chocolate.

Its like a carob-obsessed vegan going to a chocolate-lovers forum and demanding that carob be given equal tie on the main discussion page, claiming that such and such carob cookie should be considered chocolate because its disguised as a chip, or stating that chocolate-icing carrot cake should not be considered chocolate because "carrot" sounds like "carob".

That's what's ludicrous.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Skywalker;668649That's untrue. In DW, the GM chooses who to give initiative to by addressing them with the question: "What do you do?" In practice, DW has greater flexibility than usual as they are forced by the rules to call for initiative and then forced to follow the order determined by the dice.

So you're trying to pretend that when player B who shouts out "I want to stop player A from doing x", the GM can just say "NO, you can't do that its not your turn"?
He's not required to allow player B his story-proganism and "Say yes or roll the dice" to borrow another Swine phrase? Or what are the DW Swine calling it? "To do it, do it"?

Or that when Player C says "I fire at the ork" and then player D says "No, I fire at the orc first" the GM can just unilaterally decide that player D gets to go first even though player C called it first?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Skywalker;668654The GM has no choice but to grant success on a successful roll, a failure on a failed roll, and a success with consequences on a partial success. The system, like most RPGs, quantifies what these means in terms of the mechanics.

And unlike most RPGS, the GM has no power whatsoever to interpret these successes or failures or consequences.  He must bow completely to the rule of the players, who in turn must bow completely to the will of the wiser Swine-Game-Designer who knows what's best for everyone.

So much so, to the point that the GM in DW isn't allowed to roll dice, lest he end up "cheating" by imagining that the guy who was once the designer of worlds is now more than a mere monopoly-banker, and try to fudge a roll behind a screen like they did in the dark days before the Peoples' Revolution (note: "people" as usual being represented by, controlled by, and governed by a tiny group of "revolutionaries" who are the only ones capable of really ruling over the unwashed masses that don't know what's best for themselves).

QuoteThe player description of pushing the goblin is the result of the successful action the player initiated, and is just like any RPG.

No. In an RPG, its the GAME MASTER who describes what happens, not the player. The player says what he would like to do.


RPGPundit

Quote from: Skywalker;668655So Fate points are a part of the "physics" of the Warhammer world?

Yes, in a game of sword-and-sorcery narrow escapes. Note that in WFRP, the GM can just decide that none of your fate points can save you, because it makes sense in terms of what's happening in the WORLD.

Also, in this case, by "physics" i meant that all the  comedy RPGs mentioned are ones which are not about life or death; the chance of dying is not part of the genre being emulated. Ergo, raising them as counterargument is particularly weak and pathetic rhetoric.

It shows off how weak your side is at this argument; you feel like you need to bring up WFRP Fate points as if that will somehow prove something, as if that will somehow make DW an RPG when it very clearly isn't; again, its like arguing that Carob should be considered chocolate because the carob comes in chip format just like chocolate chips. Its fundamental misdirection, and let us always remember, being done by someone who despises and wants to destroy and replace the hobby they seek to invade.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;668676No. In an RPG, its the GAME MASTER who describes what happens, not the player. The player says what he would like to do.

So now neither FATE nor James Bond 007 are RPGs, now?  Bollocks, I can't keep up.

The GM doesn't roll dice because the GM doesn't have to. The GM just says "the Orc attacks, I think you'd best pick up some dice and make with the dodging." There's enough real restrictions on the GM in DW that there really isn't any need to invent windmills to tilt at.

And if someone calls out "I attack the Orc! The GM is well within their rights to tell the offending player to stop interrupting, that he was addressing the Dwarf at the moment, but he'll be swinging around to them in a moment."

Unless of course, the GM did something stupid like just described a bunch of orcs and threw it out to the party with collective "what is everybody doing?" In which case, they've proper fucked themselves.