Oh. Yay. Now they want to tear apart wargaming.

Christ, can't these people at very least talk to the rpg and wargaming community itself rather than instantly labeling us monsters?

I know we're not perfect and that there are genuinely awful people who play these games but they are the minority.

My girlfriend has been wargaming longer than I have. I have LGBT-identifying friends who love it. Why don't these "SJWs" ever take their opinions into account?

Quote from: PerkytheDragon;847246My girlfriend has been wargaming longer than I have. I have LGBT-identifying friends who love it. Why don't these "SJWs" ever take their opinions into account?

They do. They call them "Uncle Toms" and dismiss them as having "Internalized Oppression".

Quote from: PerkytheDragon;847246Oh. Yay. Now they want to tear apart wargaming.

Christ, can't these people at very least talk to the rpg and wargaming community itself rather than instantly labeling us monsters?

I know we're not perfect and that there are genuinely awful people who play these games but they are the minority.

My girlfriend has been wargaming longer than I have. I have LGBT-identifying friends who love it. Why don't these "SJWs" ever take their opinions into account?

Because SJWs are bullies who high ride such a high horse they need to bring their own oxygen?

I am fairly certain that the people that go after the various hobbies we enjoy know very little about them, nor care to. They have a stick, see a target, and are going to go after until it get's boring, then go after the next one.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;847270They do. They call them "Uncle Toms" and dismiss them as having "Internalized Oppression".

Yep. And apparently we're the bigots...

Quote from: Warboss Squee;847271Because SJWs are bullies who high ride such a high horse they need to bring their own oxygen?

I am fairly certain that the people that go after the various hobbies we enjoy know very little about them, nor care to. They have a stick, see a target, and are going to go after until it get's boring, then go after the next one.

And I guess it's easier than going outside and attempting to solve real societal problems...

Quote from: PerkytheDragon;847274Yep. And apparently we're the bigots...



And I guess it's easier than going outside and attempting to solve real societal problems...

SJWs are like politicians is as much that actually solving a problem would strip them of the bludgeon that their platform needs to attempt to stay relevant.

Quote from: TristramEvans;847145No it wasnt.

GW was aimed at a younger demographic starting in the 90s, with the 4th edition of the fantasy game and 2nd iteration of the 40K game. Originally it was very much aimed at the middle aged wargame crowd, and one can easily tell this by the way the games were significantly altered to remove objectional material, the rules simplified and options removed, and the massive in-jokes that only older players would get replaced with "all-serious all-the-time" grimdark to appeal to adolescents that still took themselves very very seriously.

Well sure, but 1992 is still pretty far back as far as the general thing goes.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;847277SJWs are like politicians is as much that actually solving a problem would strip them of the bludgeon that their platform needs to attempt to stay relevant.

This, this 10^100 this.

"Ok, now that we've beaten you into submission on THIS issue, let's move on to the next one!"

Fuckers....

Are there actually women out there who really object sexy armor on female paladins for example? I never met them.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;847496Are there actually women out there who really object sexy armor on female paladins for example? I never met them.

Only in satire, I believe:

The thing with a lot of these things is you go nodding along with stuff that makes sense until it starts really getting off the rails. It's like reading an interesting economic paper about long-term planning that's making all kinds of good points and then starts talking about the need to raise a temple of infant bones to the dark lords to ward off the apocalypse leaving you thinking "bwaaaaaah?"

In a lot of nerd hobbies creepy dudes show up and often people just kind of shrug, maybe call them on their worst behavior and maybe apologize for them instead of booting them out.

A lot of people would rather deal with the long slow bleed due to the creeps than the short term explosion of drama that you'd get from giving them the boot so a lot of creeps keep on hanging around, especially in larger less personal groups.

People can really do better.

But complaining about military fetishism in the context of war gaming? Seriously?

Quote from: Daztur;847996In a lot of nerd hobbies creepy dudes show up and often people just kind of shrug, maybe call them on their worst behavior and maybe apologize for them instead of booting them out.

A lot of people would rather deal with the long slow bleed due to the creeps than the short term explosion of drama that you'd get from giving them the boot so a lot of creeps keep on hanging around, especially in larger less personal groups.

People can really do better.

I use the bandaid comparison here to try and convince people, one good rip, right off. I have some standards when it comes to people I game with, so my group selections have generally made that a non-issue. When it has been an issue I have either taken the time to explain to someone what they're doing and why they shouldn't, in real simple terms not assigning the blame on the other person. Or I've just left the group figuring it a lost cause.

Apparently being willing to do this and stand behind it is rare in geek circles and most of the folks expected it to cause a melt down. Haven't had that problem, actually had a few people realize WHY they didn't have many friends after a few quick talks. Probably helps that I have to try to be sociable myself so I generally know what I'm talking about.

Individual solutions to individual problems, it works a whole lot better than screaming at a crowd they're wrong and all these horrible things. And to note, SJWs didn't win in atheism, they just scared a number of women away for a few years and then their own movement ate itself alive. There's a few notables left and their cliques, but that's about it outside of whatever subgroup private fortress they've climbed into. I should check the con numbers and see if they're coming back to parity with women like they were pre atheism+.

Quote from: Alathon;840399"A gun is always loaded" is not a literal fact, but is nonetheless true enough to be worth saying, and worth insisting upon when handling firearms.

Also, the "truth in the middle" idea is a fallacy; sometimes one side is just plain full of shit.  There's no truth in the middle on anti-vaxx, and I'll bet with a little effort we could fish a hundred ideas out of history's dustbin which were heavily debated at one time, but nonetheless unequivocally false.  Running truth in the middle narrative empowers dishonest bargainers, who can use that false assumption to make dishonest opening statements/offers to drive the discussion.. or "push the frame", as it's sometimes called.

In the case of social justice, by going full-SJW at the start, by demanding concessions in twenty places and making every accusation under the sun, they make it emotionally easy to concede just one or two.  It's awful to deal with their baying mobs and their hyperbole and false accusations, giving just a little ground in hopes that they'll ease off starts to seem like a good idea, but do it and you've paid danegeld.  Bullying Tactics 101:  coerce concessions once, and not only is a habit of making concessions established, but everyone who's watching sees dominance established and has to peg the cost of opposition higher than it used to be.

Well said.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;847496Are there actually women out there who really object sexy armor on female paladins for example? I never met them.

IME plenty of gamers don't want their own female paladin(s) to be wearing Playboy Bunny Armour, but few outside of Internet SJWs object to other peoples' female paladins doing so.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;839650So this call to action went out:

http://www.corehammer.com/social-wargaming-part-1-social-justice-wargamer/

As a wargamer, I have never found any of these observations to be correct in reality.  I play sci fi, fantasy and a smaller handful of historical periods.  I can see where someone might come to all of these conclusions if the entire breadth of their exposure to wargaming is limited to The Miniatures Page forums.  :/

To return to the thread title a bit, one of the things I think that sets off those inclined to outrage is that wargamers tend not to see history as something over which they are supposed to stand in judgement.  That the point of history is to learn about the past rather than set it up as an object of derision.  That the past isn't something that we're supposed to shit on in order to show how modern or progressive we are.