TheRPGSite

This is a video about a video game personality who wasn't well received, and it reminded me a lot about the recent hootinany.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w

I had no idea who he was before the video, and only became aware of it when Markus Persson cited it as an example of how he felt he had become a symbol of something, rather than just a person.  He's selling Minecraft to Microsoft as a result of this general disconnection between himself and the Internet's expectations of him.

TL; DR, saw this, thought of you. (And Zak, etc)

That is an interesting video ! Thnaks for sharing ! Nice food for thoughts !

Phil Fish never made Minecraft.  Minecraft was made by Notch who is far more successful than Phil Fish can ever hope to be.  2.5 billion dollars more successful and without screwing people over.  I have zero issues with Notch.

Phil Fish is the creator of Fez and is well known social justice warrior that supports Anita Sarkeensian who also has a horrible reputation.  He is more infamous for opening his mouth and pissing off gamers.  He is also known for calling out gamers as disgusting and don't deserve Fez 2 which he was never going to make any way.  That is all I know about Phil Fish.  He was a guy that made a one hit indie wonder that was a platformer with a one trick pony.

Phil Fish is a fucking genius. He's a developer who wouldn't just sit down and shut up while he was under attack from the /v/ and reddit fucktards; he's an obsessive who put everything he had into his game. He's smart, he's blunt, and he's not afraid to tell the lawncrappers in the videogame community to fuck off.

Who's Phil Fish and what has he to do with RPGs or Pundit?

Well those were two very opposed viewpoints on this guy. Yikes.

He is no genius.  Phil Fish only created a platformer that had one unique thing.  If he was a real genius he would had figure out how to get out of his horrible reputation that he had created.  He would actually just shut up about Fez 2 his life would be easier.

Quote from: Rincewind1;787131Who's Phil Fish and what has he to do with RPGs or Pundit?

My thoughts exactly. Kill one and two more pop up - they're like hydra heads.

Quote from: Rincewind1;787131Who's Phil Fish and what has he to do with RPGs or Pundit?

This is the only Phil Fish I've ever heard of...
(http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/1/19479/2268598-det_phil_fish.jpg)

Quote from: nightwind1;787148This is the only Phil Fish I've ever heard of...

OK, so he's Phil Fish the genius. I never new Fish moonlighted as a developer though. Maybe as a second career after retiring from the Police Department?

I really don't see it. Its clear that Pundit loves the game. All of these self promoters (because even hate fame is still fame) just love themselves.

The sooner "video game" "developers" and "journalists" sit down together and commit mass suicide the fucking better.

Seriously. Bunch of self-entitled fucking wankers.

Not all indie game developers are like that.  In fact there are great many that are fucking fed up with the developers and journalists that love to make noise.  The reason they don't speak against them is because gaming journalists can easily fuck them over.  

You have to remember this.  These are not companies such as EA, Activision, and Ubisoft that can push game journalists around.  These are small time game developers that the game journalists can, will, and had push around.  Journalists cry when big publishers bully them, but what they don't want people to tell is that they bully small indie game developers.  In other words game journalists are bullies and if your in their thought tribe your good no matter what horrible things you had done.  If your a "outsider" your fucked in the ass.

Game Journalists are no better than the mods in the big purple.  In fact they are the same damn thing.  All around they are disgusting and should never be given any amount of trust.

Some clarifications:

The point here is about "being famous wrong" and being attacked for it.  The parallels between the video and Consultantgate are pretty clear.  If you don't get it, watch the video.  He does a better job of explaining.  If you can't bother to watch the video,  please kindly move on.

I don't think anyone needs to care about who Phil Fish is to get the point made in the video.  That's a tangent at best.

I never claimed Phil Fish made Minecraft.  The claim was that Notch cited this video as a reason for selling out. Here's more detail on that - http://notch.net/2014/09/im-leaving-mojang/

Specifically. ..

QuoteLater on, I watched the This is Phil Fish video on YouTube and started to realize I didn't have the connection to my fans I thought I had. I've become a symbol. I don't want to be a symbol...

Again there are some parallels here.

Quote from: nightwind1;787148This is the only Phil Fish I've ever heard of...
(http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/1/19479/2268598-det_phil_fish.jpg)

Holy shit, his name was Phil Fish.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;787257Holy shit, his name was Phil Fish.

Back when shows were called Barney Miller. But that's about the only Phil Fish I could care about anyways also.

Quote from: mcbobbo;787237Again there are some parallels here.

Pundit may be villainized by some in a parallel way that follows the same sort of pseudo intellectual media whore logic. Having been pigeonholed, nobody wants to hear about anything else from them except more of the same - like has been celebrities spouting their famous lines on the Gong Show. Are you seeing some other parallels?

Some creatures on the internet will decry being "symbolized" as internet villains but they got there because they are new media whores; they will continue to fan the negatives because it promotes them on whatever ranking mechanism they hold dear.

On that topic, I watched the Anita Sarkeesian's videogame tropes videos. She did gather a lot of interesting and inciteful examples, and presented a lot of it in video data, of the sort Id expect of someone putting together a strong argument for something. But the arguments just aren't there - and they don't need to be if the goal is just to generate much, much more attention from engineered, snowballing controversy.

And that's where the parallel stops. I haven't seen pseudo intellectual media whore logic in Pundit's responses - have you?

Much of those videos are made of lies that she tries to manipulate the watcher of those youtube videos.

Hitman for example has her showing you killing two strippers and messing around with their corpses.  What she doesn't show you is that it is the WRONG WAY TO PLAY HITMAN.  In the game if you kill a civilian you get penalize by your score, but killing people wantonly can draw attention towards you and you won't handle the fire power that people will bring towards you.  The smartest approach and what you should had done was sneak pass the strippers without them noticing you.

Another lie is Dinosaur Adventure (could be wrong with the name).  She complains that Nintendo change the game from female only protagonist to a Star Fox game in which the heroine is now a damsel in distress.  That is actually not true.  The game in its original form before it got release was actually a team of two people.  The heroine fox and some other guy.  Guess what heroine fox gets to do.  She gets to save dinosaur princess from captivity.

The point I am making is that Anita is a proven liar that will manipulate people to get what she wants.  The reason she has no strong arguments is because she is using faulty data and false evidence to stir peoples' emotions and get them outrage.  People had put her claims and evidence through peer review and found out how fake they really are.

Quote from: Lynn;787300I haven't seen pseudo intellectual media whore logic in Pundit's responses - have you?

What's the functional different between 'being a media whore' and railing against the Swine?  Do both not put you in basically the same camp?  Where you become less a person with strong opinions and more a concept worthy of group revulsion?

Are not both "being famous wrong" from the enemy PoV?

Quote from: mcbobbo;787325What's the functional different between 'being a media whore' and railing against the Swine?  Do both not put you in basically the same camp?

Pundit appears to be swine-railing because he loves the game, and not because he wants to bolster his fame.

Quote from: mcbobbo;787325Where you become less a person with strong opinions and more a concept worthy of group revulsion?

When the group self appointed leaders determines knocking you down is to more to their benefit than a cost, and turn you into their imaginary villain / punching bag / concept.

I think what you are saying is that person-as-concept is unfair and wrong, and hanging a label on a group for identification purposes looks very similar. I agree they look similar, and person-as-concept is wrong. They are not the same thing though.

Quote from: mcbobbo;787325Are not both "being famous wrong" from the enemy PoV?

I guess from media whore perspective it could look the same superficially -  until they bothered to check to see Pundit isn't tracking all of his keywords, click-thrus and twitter followers or the rise / fall in Adwords $ rate of Swine + Pundit. Then it would just be puzzling.

Quote from: Snowman0147;787188Game Journalists are no better than the mods in the big purple.  In fact they are the same damn thing.  All around they are disgusting and should never be given any amount of trust.

Geez, that's a bit harsh. Most game journalists are guys paid nothing (except maybe a free download of the game), and are pretty expendable. I seriously don't see them pushing them anyone around.

It is harsh, but true.  In case you had not notice the social justice movement had pretty much taken over some of the gaming journalist sites.  If your going to guilt trip me with their low pay I will tell you this.  They should had pick a better career that actually has a demand and reasonable pay.  I do not feel any sympathy towards those that hate my hobby and call the people in my hobby worst than ISIS.

Quote from: Lynn;787351I guess from media whore perspective it could look the same superficially -  until they bothered to check to see Pundit isn't tracking all of his keywords, click-thrus and twitter followers or the rise / fall in Adwords $ rate of Swine + Pundit. Then it would just be puzzling.

Yeah, maybe we don't connect here because I simply don't care that Phil Fish was or was not a media whore.

Not even remotely relevant to me.

What I'm identifying is a person who is no longer allowed to be a person because they make a better concept.

Doesn't matter if they deserve it or not, it's still wrong beyond wrong.

Quote from: mcbobbo;787373What I'm identifying is a person who is no longer allowed to be a person because they make a better concept. Doesn't matter if they deserve it or not, it's still wrong beyond wrong.

I recall the FEZ 2 debacle but not the details. I'm in the software industry but for the most part Ive stayed away from computer games except on the "tools" end - some can be almost as nutty as the (mainstream) entertainment industry.

His Wikipedia entry makes him out to be a man-baby who needs to own his mistakes and bad behavior, learn a life lesson and move on.

Quote from: Snowman0147;787372It is harsh, but true.  In case you had not notice the social justice movement had pretty much taken over some of the gaming journalist sites.  If your going to guilt trip me with their low pay I will tell you this.  They should had pick a better career that actually has a demand and reasonable pay.  I do not feel any sympathy towards those that hate my hobby and call the people in my hobby worst than ISIS.

I have to say, the amount of "Games Journalists" who have said some REALLY vile things at anyone who identifies as a "Gamer", has been truly astounding. As in, "You KNOW you're biting the hand that feeds you, right?" kind of stupidity.

I know I'm avoiding all Gawker media, now.

Quote from: Novastar;787382I know I'm avoiding all Gawker media, now.

I know that is the root of the problem.  This is all Gawker's fault.  Don't tell me when a bunch of sites that are owned by Gawker started to post that gamers are dead on the same day that it wasn't Gawker's order.  You know those sites are doing what Gawker tells them to do.  I can also make a bet with you that Gawker gave the okay to do the insulting click bait articles that piss off most people that enjoy video games.

Quote from: Snowman0147;787372It is harsh, but true.  In case you had not notice the social justice movement had pretty much taken over some of the gaming journalist sites.  If your going to guilt trip me with their low pay I will tell you this.  They should had pick a better career that actually has a demand and reasonable pay.  I do not feel any sympathy towards those that hate my hobby and call the people in my hobby worst than ISIS.

Career? Most "game journalists" are 20somethings looking to score a free game or two. It's as much a "career" as mowing a lawn once a week.

I guess I'm just ignorant here, because I'm unaware of any "Game Journalist United Front" where game journalists present a formal opinion that offends you so.

Perhaps I can get some links or enlightenment?

Quote from: Snowman0147;787372It is harsh, but true.  In case you had not notice the social justice movement had pretty much taken over some of the gaming journalist sites.  If your going to guilt trip me with their low pay I will tell you this.  They should had pick a better career that actually has a demand and reasonable pay.  I do not feel any sympathy towards those that hate my hobby and call the people in my hobby worst than ISIS.

What's the difference between a gamer and a member of ISIS?  

One of them is a misogynist who resents all women, hasn't taken a bath in a while, and makes preposterous, overblown statements online while not standing a chance in hell of accomplishing anything with their life in the long-term, and the others are members of a foreign jihadist group!

Thanks, folks, try the veal.

Quote from: Doom;787547Career? Most "game journalists" are 20somethings looking to score a free game or two. It's as much a "career" as mowing a lawn once a week.

I guess I'm just ignorant here, because I'm unaware of any "Game Journalist United Front" where game journalists present a formal opinion that offends you so.

Perhaps I can get some links or enlightenment?

I suspect the problem is that the amount of power people think game journalists wield, and the bar for entry in the profession, is completely at odds with the actual power that they have to shape opinions or get hired.  Much like game designers or writers in the RPG field, really.  

I remember the amount of power ascribed to people I know who happened to be  freelancers for this game or that, by members of Usenet especially, was quite extraordinary, in comparison to what their life was actually like.  

Also, I've been married for a long time, so if any of you female game designers out there really do want to trade positive reviews for sex, I am the mistake that you can keep on regretting. I'll set up my review blog tonight. Heck, the more fey male designers, too, line right up.  Oh, what's that, it doesn't really work like that?  Dammit.  Back to judging beauty contests in Omaha.

Also, sorry to any people who actually do judge beauty contests.  I know it's not like that, either.  I've seen Miss Congeniality, I know a lot of beauty contests are actually traps to catch murderers.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;787548What's the difference between a gamer and a member of ISIS?  

One of them is a misogynist who resents all women, hasn't taken a bath in a while, and makes preposterous, overblown statements online while not standing a chance in hell of accomplishing anything with their life in the long-term, and the others are members of a foreign jihadist group!

Thanks, folks, try the veal.

Maybe because unlike ISIS gamers are not chopping off the heads of actual journalist.  Seriously your joke is bullshit and it is that attitude that will kill gaming journalism.

Quote from: Doom;787547Career? Most "game journalists" are 20somethings looking to score a free game or two. It's as much a "career" as mowing a lawn once a week.

I guess I'm just ignorant here, because I'm unaware of any "Game Journalist United Front" where game journalists present a formal opinion that offends you so.

Perhaps I can get some links or enlightenment?

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate)
And before you ask "KYM?!?", it's the only place I've seen that hasn't had someone come in and just start erasing shit wholesale.

Quote from: Snowman0147;787555Maybe because unlike ISIS gamers are not chopping off the heads of actual journalist.  Seriously your joke is bullshit and it is that attitude that will kill gaming journalism.

Q: Why aren't gamers chopping the heads off of gaming journalists?

A: Because gaming journalists aren't real journalists!  And gamers would have to do something other than post rape-threats on Twitter from their laptop to find a journalist and behead them!

Seriously, anybody who non-sarcastically says gamers are worse than ISIS is not worth talking about, and anybody who thinks that people saying that gamers are as bad as ISIS is a real issue to be upset about, they need to read a newspaper and worry about real issues.  

Even this Phil Fish thing -- I mean, it's a dude who makes indie-games.  If Ford tells me that they're not going to make any cars anymore because they're mad at gamers, I'll worry about it.  If EA says they're not going to release next year's Madden because "SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS!!!" then I'll sweat it.  Some dude who released a game I never played isn't going to make games anymore because a bunch of dudes want to make rape and murder threats from anonymous accounts, enh, I'll live.  I'm more worried about the anonymous churls who have decided it's okay to terrorize people, but my suspicion is they'll use anything as an excuse, and the fact that this issue is about videogames has little to do with it.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;787552Also, sorry to any people who actually do judge beauty contests.  I know it's not like that, either.  I've seen Miss Congeniality, I know a lot of beauty contests are actually traps to catch murderers.

Best not to post when drunk, mate.

Anyhoo, what the flying fuck has this thread got to do with Pundit or RPGs?

I'll consider moving it to other games, or i'll close it. Up to you lot.

Your problem, Future Villain Band, is that you think all the death threats are just coming from gamers.  It isn't.  The death threats are also coming from social justice warriors as well and that only proves how much of a hypocrite they are.

Do gamers have trolls in their ranks.  Yes they do, but here is the difference.  The gamers hate their trolls and would ban them in a heart beat if they could.  Gamers tell other gamers not to send death threats because that hurt gamers as a whole.  Fact is gamers that do care hate their trolls on their side and are trying to fix the problem.

What nobody ever sees is social justice warriors telling other social justice warriors to stop it with the death threats.  You don't see social justice warriors banning other social justice warriors for acting like trolls.  You never see social justice warriors do any thing to fix their side.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;787639Q: Why aren't gamers chopping the heads off of gaming journalists?

A: Because gaming journalists aren't real journalists!  And gamers would have to do something other than post rape-threats on Twitter from their laptop to find a journalist and behead them!

Or, perhaps, because gamers wouldn't go around cutting people's heads off, no matter the circumstances?

I mean, I don't know why, but for some reason I tend to think hacking off another person's head is a fairly extreme action. Most people wouldn't do it.

QuoteSeriously, anybody who non-sarcastically says gamers are worse than ISIS is not worth talking about...

Unfortunately, he's one of the people who make a living talking about games, and gets to direct where that conversation goes.

Quote...and anybody who thinks that people saying that gamers are as bad as ISIS is a real issue to be upset about, they need to read a newspaper and worry about real issues.

...obviously, there's no need to talk about rape, while there's murder going on in the world.
Yeah, that's a Slippery Slope. I won't argue that saying "a lack of journalistic integrity and ethics" is as important as "crazy fuckers who chop off peoples heads". The latter is obviously more gruesome and repulsive. The former is more likely to affect me, however. So telling someone they have no right or relevancy to complain about something, is highly subjective.

QuoteEven this Phil Fish thing -- I mean, it's a dude who makes indie-games.  If Ford tells me that they're not going to make any cars anymore because they're mad at gamers, I'll worry about it.  If EA says they're not going to release next year's Madden because "SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS!!!" then I'll sweat it.  

Except EA has brought on Anita Sarkeesian as a Consultant for their games, strictly on her basis of being a SJW critic. She's not a programmer, or even a developer; she is strictly a critic.

QuoteSome dude who released a game I never played isn't going to make games anymore because a bunch of dudes want to make rape and murder threats from anonymous accounts, enh, I'll live.

I'll live, but I still think it's shitty behavior.

QuoteI'm more worried about the anonymous churls who have decided it's okay to terrorize people, but my suspicion is they'll use anything as an excuse, and the fact that this issue is about videogames has little to do with it.

That may be true; it is however being used as a smokescreen to avoid having to discuss a relevant critique, and more so, to cast doubt on the validity of that critique, by guilt of association.

Quote from: One Horse TownAnyhoo, what the flying fuck has this thread got to do with Pundit or RPGs?

I'll consider moving it to other games, or i'll close it. Up to you lot.

Only very tangentially.
The (SJW) Gaming Press are running a smear campaign against their critics in #GamerGate, in a manner similar to what the RPG SJW's tried against Pundit and Zak (unlike Pundit and Zak, I "DO" figure some of the threats made against Zoe and Anita ARE valid; there's just some serious fucked-up people on the Web; I however, have some doubt it being statistically relevant to a larger conversation, and they keep trying to move it to "Misogyny!" rather than the argument being made.)

I suppose it's bigger relevance would be, "This could be our future (RPG's), if SJW's get to control our media."

Quote from: Future Villain Band;787551I suspect the problem is that the amount of power people think game journalists wield, and the bar for entry in the profession, is completely at odds with the actual power that they have to shape opinions or get hired.  Much like game designers or writers in the RPG field, really.

"The politics are so vicious because the stakes are so small" used to be about academic politics; these days I think it's a good general maxim.

Quote from: nightwind1;787148This is the only Phil Fish I've ever heard of...
(http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/1/19479/2268598-det_phil_fish.jpg)

Isn't that Tessio, the backstabber that betrayed Michael?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvatore_Tessio

FVB, you are a good guy but sarcasm is a scalpel not a bludgeon ! And people who send violence/rape/death threats for something as trivial as video games are totaly messed up and criminals.

Quote from: Novastar;787663Only very tangentially.
The (SJW) Gaming Press are running a smear campaign against their critics in #GamerGate, in a manner similar to what the RPG SJW's tried against Pundit and Zak (unlike Pundit and Zak, I "DO" figure some of the threats made against Zoe and Anita ARE valid; there's just some serious fucked-up people on the Web; I however, have some doubt it being statistically relevant to a larger conversation, and they keep trying to move it to "Misogyny!" rather than the argument being made.)

I suppose it's bigger relevance would be, "This could be our future (RPG's), if SJW's get to control our media."

Pundit is one of the most widely disliked guys in gaming, having been booted from a ton of forums, and all of the people who despise him haven't stopped anyone from letting him write books.  Zak is controversial, I guess, and if he wanted to make another book in the vein of whatever-that-city-thing-he-wrote-is, heck, I'd even buy it.  I liked that city thing.  Jim Desborough is not just a writer of controversial things, but also a terrible writer, but he self-publishes so nobody can stop him from abusing the printed word again and again.  DTRPG still carries his shit.  If they didn't, he could set up a web store and sell it, like a bunch of companies do who have nothing to do with DTRPG.

Shit, I think even FATAL is still in print.  If it's not, the guys who wrote it could still set up a webstore and sell it.  And FATAL is pretty much the definition of crap.

Even if tomorrow, there was some kind of bizarre revolution and all those people who you call SJWs took over the Internet, all of the people with unpopular views from the majority would still have forums to post in and stores to sell their shit, and probably game companies willing to hire them.  It's a small hobby, and it's so small and garage-based at this point that you'd have to kill somebody to stop them from producing games if you didn't like them, and so far, proscription hasn't seriously been discussed anywhere that I've seen.


I mean, the whole thing requires the question -- what the fuck would real gaming journalism look like, anyway?  We've had this histrionic shit for so long, I don't think people would buy real gaming journalism.  It'd seem boring compared to all this conspiratorial shit.

Internet warps shut-in's view of reality, film at 11.

Oh, and for the record OHT, I do think this should be in "Other Games"; it's all video game related, beyond the use of SJW being used by one side against the other, and Pundit already said he wasn't interested when it was "The Quinnspiracy", before it morphed into "GamerGate" (though I think the aims shifted between those two).

Quote from: Novastar;787634http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate)
And before you ask "KYM?!?", it's the only place I've seen that hasn't had someone come in and just start erasing shit wholesale.

I read the link...still not seeing it. I'll buy Quinn (one person) was doing some inappropriate things with some game journalists (regarding one person's game)...I'll buy that 4chan tried to mobilize people against gamers (4chan really isn't a consortium of game journalists, however)...I'll buy the mods of 4chan are "not the best" (gee whiz, lots of sites have questionable moderation, and, again, 4chan aren't game journalists).

But where's the Game Journalist's Union or *something* that would give me the slightest reason to believe even a significant proportion of game journalists are anything beyond dudes that play and happen to review games?

Quote from: Snowman0147;787652Do gamers have trolls in their ranks.  Yes they do, but here is the difference.  The gamers hate their trolls and would ban them in a heart beat if they could.  Gamers tell other gamers not to send death threats because that hurt gamers as a whole.  Fact is gamers that do care hate their trolls on their side and are trying to fix the problem.

Not to completely doubt your assertion, but no true gamer would permit the trolling or verbal harassment of people (often women) during and out of play?

I think it's more honest to admit that "gamers" are a lot of different people, and that while they are the solution, they are also the problem.

Quote from: JamesV;787731Not to completely doubt your assertion, but no true gamer would permit the trolling or verbal harassment of people (often women) during and out of play?

I think it's more honest to admit that "gamers" are a lot of different people, and that while they are the solution, they are also the problem.

By that line of logic you could say activists are the cause and solution to social justice warriors.  You and I know that is bullshit.  No person that truly want to have equality desire a group of people that goes out and demand superiority that is disguised as equality.  No activist is to blame for the actions of social justice warrior and bless those activists that call out on the bullshit.

Same can be said for gamers.  In fact gamers (both players and developers) been trying to get rid of the trolls for decades.  League of Legends even has a court system for this very reason.  We have small communities that out right ban trolls and given people the power to be administrators to watch over online matches.  Gamers as a whole did a lot of things to fight off trolls other than shutting off the internet.

Which by the way the trolls existed long before the first game that had a online mode was even made.  So this isn't even something that gamers even created.  Instead it is like a predator that can adapt to its ever changing environment.

Don't know who "Phil Fish" is  and I didn't care.

 Doubt the dude will ever effect my gaming.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Doom;787720I read the link...still not seeing it. I'll buy Quinn (one person) was doing some inappropriate things with some game journalists (regarding one person's game)...I'll buy that 4chan tried to mobilize people against gamers (4chan really isn't a consortium of game journalists, however)...I'll buy the mods of 4chan are "not the best" (gee whiz, lots of sites have questionable moderation, and, again, 4chan aren't game journalists).

But where's the Game Journalist's Union or *something* that would give me the slightest reason to believe even a significant proportion of game journalists are anything beyond dudes that play and happen to review games?

The part where they colluded together on a messageboard, deciding in a group what they would, and what they would NOT cover, regarding news stories. And this isn't low-level stuff; we're talking managing editors setting out mandates.

Quote from: Snowman0147;787739By that line of logic you could say activists are the cause and solution to social justice warriors.  You and I know that is bullshit.  No person that truly want to have equality desire a group of people that goes out and demand superiority that is disguised as equality...

That's where I think you're mistaken, to use your example. I definitely bet that SJWs see themselves as activists. They are just shitty activists.

Unless "gamer" has some weird definition beyond, "person who likes to play games", then to say that these people are not gamers too is equally bull. They're just shitty gamers. It's not to discount the efforts made to fight and repair the damage being done by the bad actors, but to admit that they are a part of the same landscape, and in this case, for the worse.

No this is where you are making the mistake.  Just because social justice warriors see themselves as activists doesn't really make themselves into activists.  You have to be not a human garbage to be a real activists.  You have to actually get off your ass and help people in real ways even if it does risk your life.  You have to actually be a selfless person that gives a damn about the well being of others which is the exact opposite of what social justice warriors do.

Just because some trolls see themselves as gamers doesn't make them gamers.  If they were real gamers they would make the gaming hobby better and not for worst.  They wouldn't say racial slurs, sexist remarks, and death threats in online matches.  If they were real gamers they would just play the game and say good game at the end of the match.  They would act like adults.  Hell they might join those that make charity events that is design to help people like what other gamers had done.

I don't see social justice warriors as activists because they DO NOT DESERVE IT.  I do not see trolls as gamers because THEY DO NOT DESERVE IT.

Quote from: Snowman0147;787802No this is where you are making the mistake.  Just because social justice warriors see themselves as activists doesn't really make themselves into activists.  You have to be not a human garbage to be a real activists.  You have to actually get off your ass and help people in real ways even if it does risk your life.  You have to actually be a selfless person that gives a damn about the well being of others which is the exact opposite of what social justice warriors do.

This is sounding a bit like the No True Scotsman fallacy, to be honest; certainly throughout much of the twentieth century, this definition of activist hasn't applied to most self-professed activists.

Well I am sorry if people choose to confuse slackivists with activists because those two have different agendas.  Slackivists want to control and profit from the causes that activists do.  They will not hesitate to use that cause as a shield to defend their shit actions.  Activisits just want to help people and make the world a better place.  You can scream scotsman fallacy all you want, but as far as I am concern they are two separate things.  One is just so happen to leech off the work and concerns of the other.

Is there a way to get a thread to stop showing up in my "USER CP" list?

Or do I just have to remember that this thread has totally jumped the shark  and avoid reopening it?

Quote from: JamesV;787754That's where I think you're mistaken, to use your example. I definitely bet that SJWs see themselves as activists. They are just shitty activists.

Unless "gamer" has some weird definition beyond, "person who likes to play games", then to say that these people are not gamers too is equally bull. They're just shitty gamers. It's not to discount the efforts made to fight and repair the damage being done by the bad actors, but to admit that they are a part of the same landscape, and in this case, for the worse.

Actually, I generally agree with both your points.

I doubt anyone wakes up in the USA, and goes "I feel like oppressing someone today!" But the road to hell can be paved in good intentions, and it's important to sometimes reflect on your opponents arguments. If your argument cannot survive their critique, you may need to adjust your position.

As to "gamers" though, I think several of the Games Journalists would be highly offended to be labeled as such, given the absolute vitriol heaped upon "Gamers" by journalists in articles and especially Twitter in the last month. They seem to very pointedly to consider "Gamers" sub-human trolls, worthy of nothing but the greatest of scorn.

EDIT: Though, to be fair, the Journalists seem to be engaged in definition games; their definition of "Gamer" is less the common usage "someone who plays games", and more "misogynistic catpissmen". Which people who identify as Gamers, but not as catpissmen, naturally resist. Just as I think anyone who grew up in the ghetto would resist being called a "hoodrat", which Leigh Alexander apparently thinks is a "nicer term" for them.

I've been avoiding this whole internet event except for a cursory glance at the start.

It seems that the whole thing is overshadowed by the accusations of misogyny.

Putting aside that whole other issue (which is worthy of discussing on its own), WAS there any validity to the accusations of nepotism and corruption?

Quote from: Necrozius;788049Putting aside that whole other issue (which is worthy of discussing on its own), WAS there any validity to the accusations of nepotism and corruption?

She slept with a games writer, chronologically after he had written about her game. I think that it's a safe bet, though, that other people in the games industry have slept together at some point, so... that's exciting, clearly.

Games journalism remains utterly corrupt, of course, but that's due to games sites being funded by games publishers and dependent on publishers for access and news to publish, and so having an incentive to only write what pleases their masters. Note how nobody is getting upset about that, actual, corruption...

Quote from: Necrozius;788049I've been avoiding this whole internet event except for a cursory glance at the start.

It seems that the whole thing is overshadowed by the accusations of misogyny.

Putting aside that whole other issue (which is worthy of discussing on its own), WAS there any validity to the accusations of nepotism and corruption?

Maybe. It's hard to filter out of the noise, but it seems like some really skeevy stuff has been going on. Which is the same shit that's been going on for years, and has blown up before.

The funny thing is, it's the massive 'the other side is a bunch of sexist oppressors' bunch that have given this whole thing the sustainability it's had. It's the concerted push back by that group that has pissed off people so much, that people are digging. And unsurprisingly, finding things that while hardly damning, and indicative of a larger problem, at which point there's more push back.  And more digging.  Etc.

Zoe Quinn would have gotten the same spotlight that Phil Fish had, that several other game devs have gotten, (Although I hesitate to call anyone who calls a hyperlinked HTML file a game, even said, I'd review it positively) except like the issue with Zak S and RPGPundit, it was the smear campaign against the people speaking out that made it an issue.

If not for that? This whole thing would have been forgotten in a few days.

Round of applause for the idiots, please.

Quote from: Ladybird;788054Games journalism remains utterly corrupt, of course, but that's due to games sites being funded by games publishers and dependent on publishers for access and news to publish, and so having an incentive to only write what pleases their masters. Note how nobody is getting upset about that, actual, corruption...

In many kinds of vertical market news that involve development and manufacturing, you have a similar situation - even with print magazines. Subscriptions yield little revenue as compared to advertising. Some magazines try to put up a firewall between editorial and advertising, while others find a least harmful collusion method.

The difference is in the specifics of the video game market and those attracted to it - driven by constant change, youth, and big money - and maybe a little less cutthroat than music and other types of entertainment.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;788055Zoe Quinn would have gotten the same spotlight that Phil Fish had, that several other game devs have gotten, (Although I hesitate to call anyone who calls a hyperlinked HTML file a game, even said, I'd review it positively) except like the issue with Zak S and RPGPundit, it was the smear campaign against the people speaking out that made it an issue.

Would you describe a Fighting Fantasy book, frex, as being a game? And if so, what's the difference between a book and an HTML file? Given that the two mediums are basically interchangeable into each other...

The "people speaking out" got "attacked" because their sole complaint was "woman dares involve herself in game industry, attempts to make game other than Call of Duty, whaaarglebargle". They're the same group that complains about the existence of any game outside of their narrow dudebro niche. They deserved to be called on their shit.

Quote from: Ladybird;788058Would you describe a Fighting Fantasy book, frex, as being a game? And if so, what's the difference between a book and an HTML file? Given that the two mediums are basically interchangeable into each other...

That's actually a good point. Noted!

Quote from: Ladybird;788058The "people speaking out" got "attacked" because their sole complaint was "woman dares involve herself in game industry, attempts to make game other than Call of Duty, whaaarglebargle". They're the same group that complains about the existence of any game outside of their narrow dudebro niche. They deserved to be called on their shit.

Yeah that's what I was wondering. The internet can be a shitty place.

Quote from: Ladybird;788058Would you describe a Fighting Fantasy book, frex, as being a game? And if so, what's the difference between a book and an HTML file? Given that the two mediums are basically interchangeable into each other...

The "people speaking out" got "attacked" because their sole complaint was "woman dares involve herself in game industry, attempts to make game other than Call of Duty, whaaarglebargle". They're the same group that complains about the existence of any game outside of their narrow dudebro niche. They deserved to be called on their shit.

Tic Tac Toe drawn on a napkin in crayon is a game, in my book. Depression Quest is more of an educational 'choose our own adventure book'. And, as I said, it does what it's supposed to do. I however, wouldn't classify it as a game.

That said, boiling down the entirety of the participants of this thing, even in the onset, as a bunch of 'dudebros' out to keep women out of the gaming industry is like saying the current feminist movement is a bunch of dick haters looking for their own personal and unique pound of flesh and using the Femithiest as an example, or basing an opinion on all Muslims on the murderous fucks in ISIS.

It's intellectually dishonest, and serves as a prime example of the bullshit going on. 'I don't like what you/they said, so put the whole thing in a fucking box labeled misogyny, and if anyone asks, show them the label, because treating an entire movement based on the actions of a few assholes (and yes their are some major assholes involved, but the are not the whole) is some sort of magical freaking talisman that sets the mind at ease and makes it easier to coast by the concept that they might have an actual point, are you fucking kidding me?

Quote from: Necrozius;788049Putting aside that whole other issue (which is worthy of discussing on its own), WAS there any validity to the accusations of nepotism and corruption?

There is actual proof of collusion, on which stories they would cover and which ones they would not, AND active intimidation by EIC's to other members, in a Google group GamingJournosPro (or some such, Breitbart London has the actual article).

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/18/The-emails-that-prove-video-games-journalism-must-be-reformed (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/18/The-emails-that-prove-video-games-journalism-must-be-reformed)

The Escapist is one of the few websites that hasn't shut down discussion (both for and against) Gamergate, and was just recently shut down in a massive DDoS raid.

Many pro-GamerGate people are getting doxxed in a large scale campaign, and unlike Zoe and Anita, can provide screenshots to prove it! (cheap shot, if you are the target of harassment, you should go to the police, not the internet).

Quote from: Novastar;788067There is actual proof of collusion, on which stories they would cover and which ones they would not, AND active intimidation by EIC's to other members, in a Google group GamingJournosPro (or some such, Breitbart London has the actual article).

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/18/The-emails-that-prove-video-games-journalism-must-be-reformed (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/18/The-emails-that-prove-video-games-journalism-must-be-reformed)

The Escapist is one of the few websites that hasn't shut down discussion (both for and against) Gamergate, and was just recently shut down in a massive DDoS raid.

Many pro-GamerGate people are getting doxxed in a large scale campaign, and unlike Zoe and Anita, can provide screenshots to prove it! (cheap shot, if you are the target of harassment, you should go to the police, not the internet).

Unless there is a link to said screen shots, I'm going to treat it with the same skepticism as I do the claims of the other side, personally.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;788069Unless there is a link to said screen shots, I'm going to treat it with the same skepticism as I do the claims of the other side, personally.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/17/Exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite

This one apparently has some screenshots of emails from the mailing list. Not unfakeable, but you know, it is what it is.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;788070http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/17/Exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite

This one apparently has some screenshots of emails from the mailing list. Not unfakeable, but you know, it is what it is.

I meant of the doxxing and harassment. You always hear about someone getting harassed of doxxed or sent threatening phone calls, but it's hardly ever backed up by the SJW crowd.

Hell, one of the claims in ConsultancyGate (I weep to think this is the legacy Nixon left) was that someone had tracked down the person contact info for their father, somehow learned/divined it on a fucking crystal ball that he was currently hospitalized, figured out which hospital it was, and managed to call his room specifically, to threaten the father for the actions of the son.

I would have an easier time believing the Hari Krishna are in cahoots with bronys in shriner hats and 9/11 was the first step in their plan to invade Mars.

Sarkeesian's claimed this, Quinn, Fish and others, but never seem to have a screenshot. Hell, one of the claimed the FBI was involved and that 'arrests would be made'.

Sure.

Quote from: Lynn;788057In many kinds of vertical market news that involve development and manufacturing, you have a similar situation - even with print magazines. Subscriptions yield little revenue as compared to advertising. Some magazines try to put up a firewall between editorial and advertising, while others find a least harmful collusion method.

The difference is in the specifics of the video game market and those attracted to it - driven by constant change, youth, and big money - and maybe a little less cutthroat than music and other types of entertainment.

To be fair, I think games journalism is "utterly corrupt" is a bit of an overstatement.  In this day and age there's a lot of different outlets, a lot more before when it was limited to a few print magazines.

But the problem with any sort of journalism in this field is two-fold.  First of all, games are Entertainment and not "serious business".  Most gaming coverage from all of these Internet sites are about new games, reviews, etc.  There's not a lot of serious coverage on the business side of things, because most of the audience doesn't really care about that stuff.  So at best, the reporting is akin to reporting like Entertainment Tonight, The Insider, or Gossip magazines.  Anything that would require deeper probing would most likely be something that would be covered by mainstream media.  The except would be actual coverage of the industry like trade magazines do, but there's a lot less of that and it's audience is usually the gaming professionals.

The second one is this type of journalism isn't really funded because of the nosedive of people actually willing to pay for quality content.  It's the same thing that happened to the newspapers in part, but it's worse for this specialized industry, because game enthusiasts are very unlikely to pay for any sort of quality journalism where the funding also helps setup the structure for supporting these types of things.  So, the reason why advertising revenue is important.  But that's really partly the fault of the audience IMO.  You want "unbiased" or "objective" reporting, but you aren't willing to fund the people to support it?  Consumer Reports for instance doesn't take any ad revenue to keep themselves ad free so the reviews don't get compromised--but how much of the audience will be willing to both pay to help fund getting review copies "off the shelf", and how much of the audience would be willing to wait a few months to read a review of the game after the release date.

Honestly this whole brouhaha seems a little strange to me.   Ultimately it comes down to the real problem with any media coverage--everybody doesn't just want to read opinions, they want their own opinions validated and the other opinions demonized.  That's a growing problem lately with culture in particular.

Here's how I think the internet fucks people up.

In any given social group, you have your loud, shouty people who will kick and scream at any perception of deviance from their cultural norm, and the vast majority of people who basically just roll with the punches and don't worry about it too much.

The internet has ensured that the loudest voices are the ones that get heard, because there aren't any gatekeepers. The more outrageous the voice, the longer it gets play. Gawker basically makes it's money off of finding the most outrageous people they can and pointing at them like a freak show.  

This leads to two mutually exclusive views of the world: One, that the culture of whatever is made up of mouth breathing catpissmen and brogrammers, and Two, that the world is made up of overprivileged hipsters who are making millions off of mocking the people they're taking money from.

Neither is true, but you can't convince anyone on either side of that. The minority becomes the representative of the majority, the tribal monkey-mind goes into overdrive, and the flame wars keep going while everyone else gets up, goes to work and gets on with their lives.

Every once in a while these flame wars spill over into Real Life, with threats and lies and the like, and that just serves to reinforce the story that there is a Great Culture War, and not a bunch of bored people bickering on the internet.

Quote from: JRT;788077To be fair, I think games journalism is "utterly corrupt" is a bit of an overstatement.  In this day and age there's a lot of different outlets, a lot more before when it was limited to a few print magazines.

This. I've been writing about computer games for decades, and have used press credentials to get into E3 a dozen or so times...never even heard of such a mailing list, and never had an editor write me saying there was a certain slant I was supposed to give a game.

But, apparently such a list existed...I don't see it nearly as devastating as Climategate, and it's clear there was a least a small cabal here.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;788069Unless there is a link to said screen shots, I'm going to treat it with the same skepticism as I do the claims of the other side, personally.

(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/834/206/fda.jpg)
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/834/111/65a.png)
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/833/996/ac1.jpg)
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/833/970/d0b.png)
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/833/963/67c.png)
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/833/645/d81.png)

(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/833/399/66d.png)
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/833/170/ade.jpg)
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/832/506/4f5.png)
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/829/520/e1c.jpg)
EDIT: Not actually Greg Costikyan in picture, though the quote is accurate.
And Hey! An edit to correct for inaccuracies! I'm already more professional than Kotaku writers!
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/828/777/4a5.jpg)
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/827/130/e99.png)
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/834/205/0be.jpg)
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/828/360/edd.png)

Quote from: Warboss Squee;788073Sarkeesian's claimed this, Quinn, Fish and others, but never seem to have a screenshot. Hell, one of the claimed the FBI was involved and that 'arrests would be made'.

Sure.

Actually, I do believe the FBI have investigated former threats on Sarkeesian, and those investigations are on-going.

As to Quinn, it's been proven that the information supposedly doxxed leads to dead links and fake accounts. Take that as you will.

EDIT: and some new threats!
(http://puu.sh/bHW12/8abff249c5.jpg)
(http://puu.sh/bHXAl/b8a28d5b51.jpg)

Quote from: JRT;788077... isn't really funded because of the nosedive of people actually willing to pay for quality content.

Yes, so true and applicable for much that is readable online or downloadable - not willing to pay, but willing to download illegally.

Well, how about that.

I need to get on twitter to take Devin Faraci up on his challenge. I'd eat him alive.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;788121Well, how about that.

I need to get on twitter to take Devin Faraci up on his challenge. I'd eat him alive.

Trust me, Greg Costikyan's challenge rankles me, too.

Less because of who's he's defending (that's his decision), but because of the sheer idiocy of his challenge. Fedora. Longcoat. Fingerless gloves. Incorrect posture. Incorrect grip on sword. NO SHOES.

And perhaps worst of all, if I remember my duel protocols, showing bared steel in a challenge is an invitation to a death match.

Idiot Internet Hipster.

Quote from: Novastar;788172Trust me, Greg Costikyan's challenge rankles me, too.

Less because of who's he's defending (that's his decision), but because of the sheer idiocy of his challenge. Fedora. Longcoat. Fingerless gloves. Incorrect posture. Incorrect grip on sword. NO SHOES.

And perhaps worst of all, if I remember my duel protocols, showing bared steel in a challenge is an invitation to a death match.

Idiot Internet Hipster.

When I saw that pic and read his post, I literally laughed out loud.  Talk about making sure you hit every negative geek stereotype you can.  I swear I could almost smell the catpiss stank from my monitor LOL

That has to be one of the most pathetic and funny things I've read in a long, long while.

Someone should tell him than in the real world (as opposed the fantasy game world in which he thinks he lives), if he threatens someone with a weapon, he's either going to get shot, or end up making nice with Bucho in jail, or both.

A challenge for combat to "defend the honor". ...bwaahahahaha   SMH

Quote from: Sacrosanct;788182When I saw that pic and read his post, I literally laughed out loud.  Talk about making sure you hit every negative geek stereotype you can.  I swear I could almost smell the catpiss stank from my monitor LOL

That has to be one of the most pathetic and funny things I've read in a long, long while.

Someone should tell him than in the real world (as opposed the fantasy game world in which he thinks he lives), if he threatens someone with a weapon, he's either going to get shot, or end up making nice with Bucho in jail, or both.

A challenge for combat to "defend the honor". ...bwaahahahaha   SMH

A katana and a trenchcoat in a doublewide are dangerous things. - Lord Hobie

Quote from: Lord Hobie;788183A katana and a trenchcoat in a doublewide are dangerous things. - Lord Hobie

You know what these guys remind me of?  Ever see that horrible cheesy movie "The Swordsman"?  The one from 1993 with Lorenzo Llamas?

There's a scene where they are in a swordfighting class, and this big, out of shape neckbeard nerd shows up dressed as a barbarian and proceeds to talk about how great his character is.  Well, he's in a room full of actual swordsmen, and not just a bunch of LARPers, and proceeds to get his ass handed to him.

That's who these guys remind me of.  Proclaiming you're a badass based on your LARP skills or sword collection (chances are those aren't even battle ready blades but cheap Pakistani knockoffs) is a quick way to get yourself hurt.

*Edit*  hahahaha, double idiocy for the win.  I just noticed that these "women who need defending", he can't even get their names spelled right.

What a tool...

This is why I can't even take people that defend these "journalists" and social justice "warriors" seriously.  They are hypocrites that go out to do the things they preach against.  When a actual minority voices his/her opinion that goes against the social justice narration these people rips apart that person.  They cry about being harass at trolls yet they give out harassment and death treats.

I don't think that's Costikyan in the picture or that he posted the pic. I think it's someone else making fun of him. The actual article on Gamasutra I believe was taken down a day later, maybe after he sobered up. But it's probably still available on archive.today, which is replacing donotlink as a way to document craziness without giving it link rank OR page views.

I hope Costikyan is doing well. I don't know if this represents a lurch from right to left (around the time of Pax Brittanica and Trailblazer he seemed to be flirting with Libertarianism and even nostalgia for colonialism) but he's always seemed like an intense guy.

From this point I will call trolling, Phil Fishing!

Quote from: One Horse Town;787641Best not to post when drunk, mate.

Dude, that's the ONLY time you should post :)

Quote from: One Horse Town;787641Anyhoo, what the flying fuck has this thread got to do with Pundit or RPGs?

Nothing, but it's relevant because... reasons?

Quote from: Arminius;788199I don't think that's Costikyan in the picture or that he posted the pic.

He's not, and he didn't (http://kanlashkan.deviantart.com/art/Katana-pose-153601451).

But sadly this won't stop the people who want to make assumptions that fit their narrative from making assumptions that fit their narrative.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;788228

Quote from: Arminius;788199I don't think that's Costikyan in the picture or that he posted the pic.

He's not, and he didn't (http://kanlashkan.deviantart.com/art/Katana-pose-153601451).

But sadly this won't stop the people who want to make assumptions that fit their narrative from making assumptions that fit their narrative.

Well, thank goodness for small favors!

I guess I can only ridicule him for chauvinistic white knighting, rather than that horrid picture.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;788228He's not, and he didn't (http://kanlashkan.deviantart.com/art/Katana-pose-153601451).

But sadly this won't stop the people who want to make assumptions that fit their narrative from making assumptions that fit their narrative.

Thank God.  Otherwise that would be just too much to handle ;)

Did he say the quote though?  Do we know that?  I'm trying to see if he's just half as rediculous as before (which is still quite a bit), or another regular dude caught up in a mess.

An article appeared in Gamasutra under his name, with that quote.

https://archive.today/vT7vp#selection-1463.2-1465.14

If he said the quote he is still pretty stupid.  Not to mention by Anita's logic and thus the logic of many other social justice warriors is pretty damn sexiest.  I mean how dare you try to protect a woman as if she is a damsel in distress.

Then again using Anita's logic, or the lack of logic as I will call it there would be a lot of white knights that are guilty of being sexist towards women.  Like every single last one of them.  Even by their own rules those social justice warriors fail and become the thing they hate the most.

What I can't understand is how so many people take them seriously.  By the social justice terms and rules the social justice movement is sexist.  How can anyone take that movement seriously?

Well, I think it is likely that some amount of the direct abuse and harassment is real, not falsified, not exaggerated or misinterpreted, not "false flag." Even though I don't any of the threats had actual intent behind them.

That stuff is unacceptable even though people on the "Gamergate" side have also been targeted. Even though the "anti-Gamergate" side has exploited incidents of abuse and harassment, and no matter how incorrect or dishonest their position may be on the root issues of corruption and ideological criticism of the content of games.

The best exponents of the Gamergate movement have been arguing that they can walk & chew gum: denounce harassment while simultaneously fighting bias and corruption.

So basically this is just like the mess with Pundit and Zak.  A group of people telling the world that Pundit and Zak are horrible people and products should be boycotted because they allegedly harrased and doxx'd SJWs, while at the same time ignoring the doxxing, harassment, and death threats commited by their own group.

As someone with no dog in this fight either way, I'd take your (SJW) claims of harassment more seriously if you even made some attempt at giving the impression that you didn't accept it from your own group, let alone give the impression that you endorse it (which is the impression I get currently).

I'm not a fan of such blatant hypocrisy, and honestly the SJW crowd ignoring and/or endorsing worse behavior than they're accusing their enemies of hurts the "cause" more than helps it.

Yep it is the same old shit that we dealt with before, but in a new format.  I denounce the trolls for their harassment, but at the same time it doesn't change my stance on what the social justice movement had done either.  If the social justice warriors actually practice what they preach I would see them at a different light, but they can't even pull that off.  Hell they might even be the worst examples of us from the things they pull off and gotten away with.  Not saying they are worst than ISIS because that is not only over a dramatic bullshit lie, but that would be stooping to social justice level.  I am saying social justice warriors are just pretty bad people.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;788278I'm not a fan of such blatant hypocrisy, and honestly the SJW crowd ignoring and/or endorsing worse behavior than they're accusing their enemies of hurts the "cause" more than helps it.

"Worse," we don't know. Anita Sarkeesian has reported receiving threats to the San Francisco police, who turned the case over to the FBI. I think anyone who speculates publicly on that outcome is likely to embarrass himself. The texts she quoted/screenshotted were pretty vile.

On the other hand there's been a DDoS on The Escapist, which is one of the few fora where the discussion was allowed to continue; one guy believes he was fired from a temporary job because of reports sent to his boss; a reporter had a mysterious syringe sent to him in the mail; a prof at Cornell (who is pro-GG) had her identity exposed by a student.

It does seem though that the GG people are making more of an effort to call out & discourage harassment.

Quote from: Arminius;788282"Worse," we don't know. Anita Sarkeesian has reported receiving threats to the San Francisco police, who turned the case over to the FBI. I think anyone who speculates publicly on that outcome is likely to embarrass himself. The texts she quoted/screenshotted were pretty vile.

.

The "worse" part was more referring to the consultantgate thing.  I.e., accusing Pundit and Zak of being transphobic and advocating harassment while having members of their group declare death threats against pundit.  Death threats are worse than harassment, IMO.

Quote from: Arminius;788282"Worse," we don't know. Anita Sarkeesian has reported receiving threats to the San Francisco police, who turned the case over to the FBI. I think anyone who speculates publicly on that outcome is likely to embarrass himself. The texts she quoted/screenshotted were pretty vile.

Given all the manipulation and lies that Anita does it is very hard to trust her.  IF this is is real, then holy shit that is pretty bad.  No one should get get death threats no matter how vile the person is.

Quote from: Arminius;788270An article appeared in Gamasutra under his name, with that quote.

https://archive.today/vT7vp#selection-1463.2-1465.14

What an ass.

Quote from: Arminius;788270An article appeared in Gamasutra under his name, with that quote.

https://archive.today/vT7vp#selection-1463.2-1465.14

Oh wow I completely miss this.  I just read it and holy shit is he stupid.  Wow that whole article made him look more stupid than that pic could ever do and that is a amazing feat to do.

While we're at it, can someone please explain to me why these people are spending all this time and energy to ruin the lives of a few people based on false allegations (again, mostly consultantgate and JDgate) when you've got actual dirtbags like Shipman that they could try to run out of the hobby?  Or why they're throwing huge shit fits and energy into ranting about how the MM doesn't have at least 50% representation of female monsters as if that's the most important purpose of the book and therefore WoTC doesn't really care about minorities, but nary a mention about clearly sexist and child porn-esque games that their friends helped create?

Can someone explain how a unproven thoughtcrime is worthy of rallying the masses of concerned and righteous zealots, but actual crime isn't worth acknowledging?

Sarcosanct that would require work to solve real crime.  It would require going through the legal process of justice and the worst thing about it is that there is no reward for it.

It is better to just attack fake crimes that does nothing to anyone at all.  That way you won't have to prove any thing and gain instant fame from a outrage crowd.

Well, after several hours of fucking around with my router, whoever hacked it can go fuck off and die in a fire. :mad:

How do you know you got hack?

Quote from: Snowman0147;788311How do you know you got hack?

Because I'm the ONLY person who knows the passwords, and they got changed.

Shit.  What password were you using, or does your router come with a password?

What brand of router do you use?

Why do you think someone would target you? (Or is this off topic?)

How do you think they got your IP address?

Not sure I want to share too much more, honestly guys, until I've had time to talk more with the police (I'm filing a Report, just on the off chance someone does go wild with a Credit Card, or worse, I find out they were trafficking kiddie porn while I was at work today).

Luckily, the router comes with a "reset" button on it, and I was able to reset and switch the security settings. After I finished that, everything started working again.

In fairness, we do live on "the po' side of town", so someone might have just been looking to steal my high-speed Internet.

High speed internet theft is more likely.  The chance of having some internet hacker hacking your router for no good reason is too little of a chance for it to happen.  Now it does happen, but it isn't as common as media makes it out to be.

Now some stranger in your area knowing some router tricks is more common.  Especially if you can you just google search it.

True, but it apparently went down shortly after I posted the photos in the thread. The timing was odd, since we've lived here for almost 2 years.

But then again, this summer I had someone steal 3 fence boards in the wee hours of the morning. Didn't realize it till I called for the dogs after letting them out, and the puppy came running back (bell twinkling) through the hole, behind the trampoline...

The only people that read this forum site in good faith are those who are sick and tired of the social justice bullshit any ways.  As far as any social justice group is concern we are lost causes preaching to the crowd.  I highly doubt it was them and especially on such short notice.  It barely even had enough time to spread.

Though the fact you got bits of your fence stolen is pretty telling that you might want more secure passwords for your router.  Possibly better routers that offer more protection.  If they are stealing fences there is no telling what else they can do.

Dude, there's SJW's that spend more time lurking here, than I spend posting here. I would not be surprised Ettin has more hours logged in to theRPGSite, than I.

Quote from: Novastar;788322Not sure I want to share too much more, honestly guys, until I've had time to talk more with the police (I'm filing a Report, just on the off chance someone does go wild with a Credit Card, or worse, I find out they were trafficking kiddie porn while I was at work today).

Luckily, the router comes with a "reset" button on it, and I was able to reset and switch the security settings. After I finished that, everything started working again.

In fairness, we do live on "the po' side of town", so someone might have just been looking to steal my high-speed Internet.

What security mode do you use?
WEP and WPA are both trivial to hack so turn on WPA2 and disable remote admin. This will mean you need to be connected to the router by a physical cable to do admin but it will prevent anyone from making any admin changes unless they are actually sitting in your house next to it in which case your router is probably way down the list of worries....

Quote from: Novastar;788339Dude, there's SJW's that spend more time lurking here, than I spend posting here. I would not be surprised Ettin has more hours logged in to theRPGSite, than I.

Okay, that's just....creepy.

Regarding gamergate, I think that this is as evenhanded and rational discussion as one is going to get:

http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2014/09/22/a-gamergate-discussion-thread-noh/

Wow...#Gamergate managed to get Intel to drop it's ads from Gamasutra:
(of course, when your EiC is posting racist tweets: http://theralphretort.com/racist-tweets-leigh-alexander-discovered/ (http://theralphretort.com/racist-tweets-leigh-alexander-discovered/) )
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/840/150/973.jpg)
(though, sadly, I've read that Felicia Day has come down as anti-#GG, because of this...)

So this started out with a guy crying that his girlfriend fucks around, and despite having a shitty boring game, fucked her way to good reviews in gaming magazines.  Guess he was right? :idunno:

What are the sides, and which side cares enough to DDOS Escapist?

It seems to be the Gaming Press (which has drunken mightily from the tap of SJW), versus the sprawling masses of teh Internet.

The masses, using the hashtag #Gamergate, basically want the Press to be some semblance of professional. Admit conflicts of interest, don't report on people you're sleeping with, don't report on people you are tied to financially, and don't collude to suppress stories.

The Games Journalists think the masses are misogynistic trolls, that need to fuck off and die in a fire, and have been all too happy to pull in 3rd Wave Feminists to their cause.

Somehow, in logic that defies any attempt of rationalization, the journalists have engaged in a campaign of mass censorship, trying desperately to control spin, and damage control the increasing evidence of their shitty behavior. EDIT: the DDoS of the Escapist, is generally attributed to the anti-Gamergate side, as the Journalists had been trying for weeks to get the thread removed from the forum.

Being the Internet, nothing ever goes away, and both sides continue to escalate.

(In the interest of fairness, I am pro-Gamergate. I condemn harassment from either side, and feel there needs to be some serious discussion on journalistic ethics for the gaming press.)

For added lulz, go find the Zoe Quinn thread at VGO, and realize they've got it ass backwards. That's the average SJW line of thought.

Quote from: Novastar;789853It seems to be the Gaming Press (which has drunken mightily from the tap of SJW), versus the sprawling masses of teh Internet.

The masses, using the hashtag #Gamergate, basically want the Press to be some semblance of professional. Admit conflicts of interest, don't report on people you're sleeping with, don't report on people you are tied to financially, and don't collude to suppress stories.

For those who have kept up with it better, did anything come of the guys who said Quinn behaved in a sexually inappropriate way towards them turn into anything? Wife said something about it a while back and it struck me as an issue that should have toppled her from the high horse, but judging by the article on cracked since I'm going to say it didn't happen.

But yeah, general consensus among the people I know is that you should put 'Hey this is my friend/wife/corporate overlord' at the start of any article in which there is reason to believe your judgement may have been influenced by personal relationships. We still don't care if she was cheating on someone, but we'd be liable to be concerned if we'd taken any of the outlets involved seriously. I stick to the bigger ones myself, that way I can always assume the corporate overlord is involved.

Still amuses me people are talking like this is all some media breakthrough for indie games. If you have to be sleeping, friends with, or bribing people to get publicity for the game, something is wrong.

Oddly, the only real fallout from the "Quinnspriracy" was ZQ sleeping with Nathan Grayson, the journalist. Now, the official line is that they weren't a couple while he was writing about Project Greenlight, and out of 50 games mentioned only 3 (one of which was Depression Quest, ZQ's game), used screenshots only of Depression Quest for the article, and prominently displayed it throughout the piece. But Kotaku's Editor reviewed it, and found no conflict of interest, even though NG was living in the same apartment as ZQ later.

:rolleyes:

Robin Arnett, was a judge on a contest panel, where a lot of Silverstring's Media (which ZQ pays for PR services) won awards at the contest. Actually, only Silverstring Media games won awards, no one else.

The one I don't get is her married boss, Joshua Boggs. Every job I've ever had, if the boss was sleeping with a junior female employee, that boss would be given a pink slip, and the junior female employee asked/paid off to sign a NDA, so they could not sue for sexual harassment later.

Quote from: Novastar;789949Oddly, the only real fallout from the "Quinnspriracy" was ZQ sleeping with Nathan Grayson, the journalist. Now, the official line is that they weren't a couple while he was writing about Project Greenlight, and out of 50 games mentioned only 3 (one of which was Depression Quest, ZQ's game), used screenshots only of Depression Quest for the article, and prominently displayed it throughout the piece. But Kotaku's Editor reviewed it, and found no conflict of interest, even though NG was living in the same apartment as ZQ later.

:rolleyes:
.

I haven't been following this too closely, but I keep seeing this argument that no favoritism took place because she didn't sleep with him before the article came out, only immediately afterward.

:huhsign:

That doesn't exactly mean that no favoritism couldn't have taken place.  Has anyone heard of, 'Hey, I'll give you a good review if we hook up later"?  I'm not saying that's what happened, only that saying it couldn't have taken place because the horizontal nasty didn't happen until shortly after is very flawed reasoning.

And while I agree that a person's sex life is totally private, I also think that if such behavior is leading to people spending money on a product they may not have bought otherwise, then it is perfectly relevant to discuss.

Quote from: Novastar;789949Every job I've ever had, if the boss was sleeping with a junior female employee, that boss would be given a pink slip, and the junior female employee asked/paid off to sign a NDA, so they could not sue for sexual harassment later.

Only if it was proven there was a quid pro quo relationship, otherwise the boss can sue for wrongful termination, and for a management type, that could be an expensive settlement.

Most of my jobs have explicit language that forbids fraternization amongst co-workers. She/he can be a manager, and the other a subordinate, but not directly interacting with one another. The conflict of interest is just too tempting (and, quite honestly, the likelihood of nooners, too great! :p ).

Quote from: Sacrosanct;789968That doesn't exactly mean that no favoritism couldn't have taken place.  Has anyone heard of, 'Hey, I'll give you a good review if we hook up later"?  I'm not saying that's what happened, only that saying it couldn't have taken place because the horizontal nasty didn't happen until shortly after is very flawed reasoning.

He didn't write a review of the game. He mentioned it in an article about Steam's Greenlight (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/08/admission-quest-valve-greenlights-50-more-games/) system, along with 49 other games; it got the article pic, but as the first Twine game to get greenlit, that seems justified.

QuoteAnd while I agree that a person's sex life is totally private, I also think that if such behavior is leading to people spending money on a product they may not have bought otherwise, then it is perfectly relevant to discuss.

DQ is available for free (http://www.depressionquest.com). I think it was originally intended to be released as paid software on Steam, but ended up not.

There is a PWYW button on the site, but those are everywhere on the internet, and the game isn't gated behind it.

Quote from: Novastar;789978Most of my jobs have explicit language that forbids fraternization amongst co-workers. She/he can be a manager, and the other a subordinate, but not directly interacting with one another. The conflict of interest is just too tempting (and, quite honestly, the likelihood of nooners, too great! :p ).

True, I know you are right; but enforceability of the language is the thing. Office relationship are often frowned upon, but you can't use the water cooler gossip. The worst I saw was an intern who slept with two different guys, and then the guys flipped on each other. My boss told me to handle it, so I told them that if any impropriety is found, it can be used as grounds for termination. That shut them up about it, though if it had been used, it would have been hard to prove.

Quote from: dragoner;789983True, I know you are right; but enforceability of the language is the thing. Office relationship are often frowned upon, but you can't use the water cooler gossip. The worst I saw was an intern who slept with two different guys, and then the guys flipped on each other. My boss told me to handle it, so I told them that if any impropriety is found, it can be used as grounds for termination. That shut them up about it, though if it had been used, it would have been hard to prove.

There was a young lady at one of my previous emplyers who had slept with a couple of people around the company. At our christmas party that year, we all went out to a nightclub, the two guys got drunk and angry with each other, A Fight Ensued, and everyone's friends waded in for the scrap. Me and the IT guys just sat in the middle of it, drinking our beers; it was like a saloon scene from a western (Only with awful scottish accents).

On of the guys had also recently started sleeping with the deputy head of HR, as well, so she had to stay out of the disciplinary process entirely.

(There's also a very nasty rumour going around that someone at my current employer was sleeping with her boss, which is the only plausible explanation for her rapid promotion, given that she's as thick as shit.)

Quote from: Ladybird;789991There was a young lady at one of my previous emplyers who had slept with a couple of people around the company. At our christmas party that year, we all went out to a nightclub, the two guys got drunk and angry with each other, A Fight Ensued, and everyone's friends waded in for the scrap. Me and the IT guys just sat in the middle of it, drinking our beers; it was like a saloon scene from a western (Only with awful scottish accents).

On of the guys had also recently started sleeping with the deputy head of HR, as well, so she had to stay out of the disciplinary process entirely.

(There's also a very nasty rumour going around that someone at my current employer was sleeping with her boss, which is the only plausible explanation for her rapid promotion, given that she's as thick as shit.)

That would be humorous, if nothing else. Nothing so glamorous for me, construction management for mid-sized firms in California up until five years ago. With 200-300 people, you do see a lot of weird stuff, but it isn't fun, mostly just extra work.

People also get promoted to do jobs nobody else wants to do, and there is nobody better than a stupid person. I actually feel sorry for them sometimes. Usually the only way I can get ahead is if somebody dies or quits, thank god for cost of living salary increases and performance based bonuses.

One time I had to talk to a guy about not shopping his female relatives to the other crew during work hours, and maybe that wasn't so good of an idea anyways. That was weird. Or the former communist insurgent who got in a fight at lunch at a liquor store, selfies me a pic of the stab wound and needs the afternoon off.